60 replies to this topic

[Dexter]

How about just getting this guy to cook? If he's scoffing at what you have been making, then it'd be very interesting to see what he decides to put together. Doesn't even have to be anything "fancy" - bistro fare is rustic, relatively quick to put together (if slow to finish), and it's peg easy to spot someone who isn't comfortable in a kitchen when they have to put together a dozen servings of anything on the spot.

[GlorifiedRice]

I realize the focus of this discussion is on what constitutes a "real chef" but I'm surprised more people aren't getting their hackles up over the term "normal food". Having a category of food he considers "normal" would be much more offensive to me than claiming to be a chef (assuming he's not). Even if it were possible to categorize food as "normal", what that category contained would have to vary so much based on location, tradition, personal preference, etc. that it would require thousands of sub-categories. Instead of trying to drill him on whether or not he's a chef, I'd be drilling him on what he considers "normal food". I think that may tell you all you need to know about his actual experience and knowledge.

Hes also stated that "I'm a chef, I only make tuna salad with fresh tuna steaks, "we" dont use canned goods"

He claims his "Bistro" is in the theater district of NYC and they only serve lunch.

UGH so tired of him

[gfweb]

I hope the tuna steaks are sushi grade.

[JHeald]

GlorifiedRice,

I would suggest you ignore him. I suspect that, due to the nature of most online communities, there is very little at steak due to this "chef" potentially lying, or even being an honest but arrogant jerk. I can almost guarantee you that the only reason he says such things is because it gets him attention. While your choice to ignore him won't deprive him of attention (i.e. you mentioned he has lots of fans), your personal attacks directed towards him might be wrong, and even if they are correct, they probably won't paint you in the best of light. Ignoring him obviously won't make him go away, but choosing to not let him bother you will make your annoyance with him go away.

You can't always change people's behaviors, especially when they are ignorant dolts on the internet, but you can always choose to ignore their personal form of stupidity.

[Tri2Cook]

Hes also stated that "I'm a chef, I only make tuna salad with fresh tuna steaks, "we" dont use canned goods"

Sounds like a waste of a good tuna steak to me... but I'm not a big fan of tuna salad.

[BeeZee]

these type of people have a way of flaming out...it's certainly not unique to the food community, I saw this on another forum a couple of years ago. Poster was always on, spouting nonsense, puffing himself up to be highly skilled at something...and one day someone who was from the same area joined the forum, read his posts and called him out. His balloon quickly deflated and he disappeared. Taking his toys and going to another sandbox.
On the internet, it's a lot of hyperbole and ego building. If nobody feeds the trolls, they go away.

[sculptor]

It's entirely possible for a dedicated foodie to know more about things food related than a random chef. While a foodie is traveling around visiting culinary destinations, reading books, researching online and browsing eGullet trying to keep on top of everything food, chef might go to his/her restaurant and do what he/she does for 15 hours a day the same way he/she has been doing it for 20 years with no concern at all for what anybody else is doing. Doesn't mean he/she is a "fake" chef. Doesn't mean that a foodie with more knowledge is more a chef than he/she is. There are no things "only chefs know". Well, there is the first rule of chef club... but that's secret so I can't post it. But I will agree that "Don't you ever cook anything normal" is a pretty rude thing to say.

I suspect those foodies on eGullet who have read the MC probably know more about food and cooking than 95% of the Chefs out there. Just today I tried to buy some self sealing tape to use on my Sous Vide bags and the two largest restaurant supply companies in San Jose California did not carry any Sous Vide equipment period. This means almost no restaurants in the area seem to be at all close to the state of the art.

[Tri2Cook]

That doesn't surprise me. The number of restaurants using sous vide equipment is probably a pretty huge minority. The number of restaurants doing much of anything you find in MC is probably a huge minority (with the disclaimer that I haven't read those books).

[Mano]

A Ph.D. is an academic degree and an M.D. is a medical degree. Having earned either one entitles the bearer to be addressed as doctor.*

The OP seems to have decided the guy is a "fake" chef. Even if he was a "real" chef, he'd still push her buttons by puffing himself up and putting her down. How she deals with him as an obnoxious irritant is the issue here.

IMO, a chef is someone who creates dishes and is in charge of all or part of a kitchen in a professional setting. Having the legitimate title of chef is no indication of competence.

*In 1987, a week after I was awarded a Ph.D., my wife and I celebrated at a local fine dining restaurant. When the Maitre D welcomed "Mr. and Ms. mano" I corrected him, "It's Dr. mano." He apologized and gave us at the worst seats among dozens of good ones. My first words to my wife were, "I'm sorry, but he gave us exactly the seats I deserved."

The sweetbreads were terrific and we laughed over what a dick head I was. Except in professional settings I never introduce myself as doctor.

[Edward J]

James Beard would bridle at being called a chef. At one time the title Chef was bestowed only on graduates from the Cordon Bleu in France.

I am really puzzled by this.

To the best of my knowledge, Cordon Bleu was created to teach cooking to people who had no intention of working professionally. In France (and most of Europe) those who want to cook professionally enter into an apprenticeship. This is usually 3 years and the apprentice is typically 15 yrs of age when they start. The classroom education is provided by the ministry of education-as is for many other trades, as well as the testing and certification.

After competing the apprenticeship, they receive the title of "Cook". I did so when I completed my apprenticeship in Switzerland in 1988, and to be sure there was no mistake, "Cook" was repeated in all 4 of Switzerland's national languages on the document....

As well, in France, (and again, for most of Europe) the "boss" is referred to as the "Chef". This could be the owner or supervisor of a store, an auto-body shop, a newspaper editor, or Chief of Police. While cooks will acknowledge their boss is a "Chef", it is (or was during the 80's and 90's) taken for granted to address the chef as "Mr. So-and-So" when speaking directly to him.

[ChefJohnny]

It's entirely possible for a dedicated foodie to know more about things food related than a random chef. While a foodie is traveling around visiting culinary destinations, reading books, researching online and browsing eGullet trying to keep on top of everything food, chef might go to his/her restaurant and do what he/she does for 15 hours a day the same way he/she has been doing it for 20 years with no concern at all for what anybody else is doing. Doesn't mean he/she is a "fake" chef. Doesn't mean that a foodie with more knowledge is more a chef than he/she is. There are no things "only chefs know". Well, there is the first rule of chef club... but that's secret so I can't post it. But I will agree that "Don't you ever cook anything normal" is a pretty rude thing to say.

I suspect those foodies on eGullet who have read the MC probably know more about food and cooking than 95% of the Chefs out there. Just today I tried to buy some self sealing tape to use on my Sous Vide bags and the two largest restaurant supply companies in San Jose California did not carry any Sous Vide equipment period. This means almost no restaurants in the area seem to be at all close to the state of the art.

Im sorry, but statements like this really piss me off. Im not trying to be an ass or anything, but just because you (or anyone) read a book doesn't make you a "chef." I agree that the term has lost damn near everything it used to mean in the past, we still bust our ass for years to earn that title and respect. You read MC, have a circulator and plate dinner with tweezers just means you have an expensive hobby.

And just for future reference, just because the local restaurant supply stores don't carry sous vide equipment, doesn't mean people aren't "that state of the art." Most of use use J.B. Prince or Le Sanctuaire or other specialty online retailers.

Again, no offense. But when someone makes ridiculous statements that undermine what I do, I feel the need to say something.

- (real) Chef Johnny

[Chris Hennes]

I suspect those foodies on eGullet who have read the MC probably know more about food and cooking than 95% of the Chefs out there....

Im sorry, but statements like this really piss me off. Im not trying to be an ass or anything, but just because you (or anyone) read a book doesn't make you a "chef."

I think that's the whole point. Of course I'm not a chef: I have a tremendous amount of culinary knowledge that I've gained because I am reading the internet while the real chefs are cooking. This means that it's basically impossible to come up with some kind of "knowledge test" that a "real chef" will pass and that us fake chefs would fail (which was the original poster's goal I think). In fact, the fake chef is probably going to do better at that sort of test than a real chef would! You want a test to separate a real chef from a fake one? Put them both in charge of a kitchen during a Friday night dinner rush. You'll find out pretty quick.

Edited by Chris Hennes, 04 April 2012 - 09:00 PM.

[ChefJohnny]

I suspect those foodies on eGullet who have read the MC probably know more about food and cooking than 95% of the Chefs out there....

Im sorry, but statements like this really piss me off. Im not trying to be an ass or anything, but just because you (or anyone) read a book doesn't make you a "chef."

I think that's the whole point. Of course I'm not a chef: I have a tremendous amount of culinary knowledge that I've gained because I am reading the internet while the real chefs are cooking. This means that it's basically impossible to come up with some kind of "knowledge test" that a "real chef" will pass and that us fake chefs would fail (which was the original poster's goal I think). In fact, the fake chef is probably going to do better at that sort of test than a real chef would! You want a test to separate a real chef from a fake one? Put them both in charge of a kitchen during a Friday night dinner rush. You'll find out pretty quick.

I wholeheartedly agree with that test. I think people are forgetting that being a chef is MUCH more than just food knowledge. Someone may be better at measuring hydrocolloids, but Im damn sure I can cook circles around almost anyone. But, this is what my industry has come to, thanks to lots of factors. I sure as hell didn't bust my ass in Michelin kitchens for barely any money for 12 years just to have a "foodie" say that they're a chef or are better cooks than "95% of the Chefs out there."

[edit]

On a separate note, holy aerospace engineer batman!! o.O

Edited by ChefJohnny, 04 April 2012 - 09:16 PM.

[Chris Hennes]

Sure, but to be clear, what sculptor said was "[foodies] know more about food and cooking than 95% of the Chefs out there...." which I don't take to mean they those foodies are "real chefs", or are better cooks. Quite the opposite in fact: while us internet foodies are off acquiring knowledge, the real chefs out there are out acquiring skills. Very different things! But it means that no knowledge test is ever going to out GlorifiedRice's nemesis as a "fake chef": fake chefs are pretty good at knowledge tests. It's the skills test they can't pass.

[ChefJohnny]

Technically, he said "those foodies who read the MC know more about food and cooking than 95% of Chefs out there." Thats where I take the offense. Its trivial, but Ive got to draw the line at someone saying that reading a book, that they know more than 95% of chefs, which includes myself Id assume. I know they don't have the skill, but I feel the need to make the point to say, well, that its complete bullshit. Again, call it trivial or semantics. But its the principle of the thing. Book smart vs. street smart.

[ChefJohnny]

On a separate note Chris, thanks for being rational with your thoughts and replies. I was (clearly) ready to throw down.

[Chris Hennes]

I'm a food-obsessed eG denizen: I like to argue . I'd still love to know if there is anything anyone can come up with that meets GlorifiedRice's original request:

"Are there any questions we can pose to him to prove he's a REAL CHEF?
like things only CHEFS know?"

I just don't think there is anything: the thing that separates a real chef from a wannabe is skills, not knowledge.

[Ashen]

You read MC, have a circulator and plate dinner with tweezers just means you have an expensive hobby.


- (real) Chef Johnny

I love that statement. :)


I consider myself a cook, and a damn fine one ,and when people call me a chef I get irritated . A chef is a professional in charge of professional kitchen. Throwing the word chef around for anyone that so much as flips a burger gets on my nerves.

I will say watching the show "Chopped" that I have better knife skills than the majority of the "Chefs " that compete. I am in awe of some of the competitors on Top chef and Iron Chef though. My wife laughs at me when I get excited and start talking about the knives and techniques they are using . lol

[tikidoc]

I just don't think there is anything: the thing that separates a real chef from a wannabe is skills, not knowledge.

And therein lies the problem of attempting to figure out if the obnoxious guy on the internet forum is a "real chef" or a wannabe. The only way you stand a good chance of finding out is if he slips and lets it known the name of his "bistro". Which it sounds like he is avoiding. Which I find interesting.

[Kerry Beal]

I'm a food-obsessed eG denizen: I like to argue . I'd still love to know if there is anything anyone can come up with that meets GlorifiedRice's original request:

"Are there any questions we can pose to him to prove he's a REAL CHEF?
like things only CHEFS know?"

I just don't think there is anything: the thing that separates a real chef from a wannabe is skills, not knowledge.

Perhaps a question related to logistics - or ordering of supplies?

[GlorifiedRice]

I'm a food-obsessed eG denizen: I like to argue . I'd still love to know if there is anything anyone can come up with that meets GlorifiedRice's original request:

"Are there any questions we can pose to him to prove he's a REAL CHEF?
like things only CHEFS know?"

I just don't think there is anything: the thing that separates a real chef from a wannabe is skills, not knowledge.

Honestly, I think after the reactions here to his statements, I now dont care about outting him cause Im now confident that hes a total fraud.
Yesterday I smoked him with my knowledge about tropical oils and home made dogfood (he literally went quiet and signed off) so its fair to say that
he has been neutralized.

So thanks Guys for the responses...

[sculptor]

Im sorry, but statements like this really piss me off. Im not trying to be an ass or anything, but just because you (or anyone) read a book doesn't make you a "chef." I agree that the term has lost damn near everything it used to mean in the past, we still bust our ass for years to earn that title and respect. You read MC, have a circulator and plate dinner with tweezers just means you have an expensive hobby.

And just for future reference, just because the local restaurant supply stores don't carry sous vide equipment, doesn't mean people aren't "that state of the art." Most of use use J.B. Prince or Le Sanctuaire or other specialty online retailers.

Again, no offense. But when someone makes ridiculous statements that undermine what I do, I feel the need to say something.

- (real) Chef Johnny

I didn't claim that people who had read the MC are chefs I just claimed, based on the authoritative nature of the work, that such people probably know more than many chefs. People are right that this knowledge doesn't translate into many of the skills needed in a restaurant. I've cooked enough for myself and others to know that there is a huge gulf between a professional chef and an amateur cook.

I do assume that anyone in my vicinity that cooks with modernist techniques either purchases things online, directly from the manufacturer or in San Francisco because that's how I got my equipment. However, what the lack of the this equipment in the run of the mill restaurant supply stores tells me is that these techniques are not that common in practice, hence my claim.

Note, just because there are chefs that don't seem to see Modernist Cuisine on their radar should hardly diminish your prestige since you do seem to belong squarely in the opposite camp.

[Edward J]

"Are there any questions we can pose to him to prove he's a REAL CHEF?
like things only CHEFS know?"

Yup.

1) The owner wants a 10% reduction on foodcost, pronto. Give me 3 suggestions on how to lower it quickly

2) You see one of your staff walking stiff-legged and quickly out the door to the parking lot to "check up on his car". What do you do immediatly?

3) You walk into the walk-in cooler and notice it is warm. What is the first thing you check? The second? If you need to call for repairs, what information do you give out? Oh,and by the way, what does a refrigeration guy cost per hour and are there any other costs or fees involved with the visit?

Like I said, a Chef is judged by how well s/he manages the resources given to him. There are many resources, but the big 4 are: Money, time, labour, ingredients. Those who can't manage them get shown the door pretty darn fast. That's a Chef. A cook, cooks.

Am I making any sense here??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[GlorifiedRice]

what are the answers?

[Tri2Cook]

what are the answers?

Those questions will tell you if the person knows anything about food cost and portioning, if he's observant enough to recognize someone's sneaking something out the door and if he's had to deal with refrigeration issues before... but they still won't tell you that he is or isn't a chef.

[gfweb]

"Are there any questions we can pose to him to prove he's a REAL CHEF?
like things only CHEFS know?"

Yup.

1) The owner wants a 10% reduction on foodcost, pronto. Give me 3 suggestions on how to lower it quickly

2) You see one of your staff walking stiff-legged and quickly out the door to the parking lot to "check up on his car". What do you do immediatly?

3) You walk into the walk-in cooler and notice it is warm. What is the first thing you check? The second? If you need to call for repairs, what information do you give out? Oh,and by the way, what does a refrigeration guy cost per hour and are there any other costs or fees involved with the visit?

Like I said, a Chef is judged by how well s/he manages the resources given to him. There are many resources, but the big 4 are: Money, time, labour, ingredients. Those who can't manage them get shown the door pretty darn fast. That's a Chef. A cook, cooks.

Am I making any sense here??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Ok. I'll guess first.

1. Scrimp on employee meal, cut scallops in half on the apps, decrease portion sizes in general

2. Get t he steaks out of his pants and fire his ass.

3. Temp and circuit breaker. Uh make and model?

[JHeald]

Technically, he said "those foodies who read the MC know more about food and cooking than 95% of Chefs out there." Thats where I take the offense.

That is not the same thing as being a better cook, which is what you actually seemed to take offense at. Food and cooking knowledge does not always translate into cooking skill, which is how you seemed to interpret the statement. Sculptor's statement is probably technically true, considering the depth of knowledge in MC. If you take offense at what he actually said, rather than how you interpreted what he said, then it seems to me that your ego is being bruised. Like you, I mean no offense, rather I'm just offering an opinion/observation. :)

Edited by JHeald, 06 April 2012 - 09:37 AM.

[Edward J]

Ok. I'll guess first.

1. Scrimp on employee meal, cut scallops in half on the apps, decrease portion sizes in general

2. Get t he steaks out of his pants and fire his ass.

3. Temp and circuit breaker. Uh make and model?

(1) Foodcost:
Well, no. 10% is a huge reduction. Bucket scraping and cheese paring can only reduce f.c by maybe 1-2%, anything higher than that, and the Chef wasn't doing his job well in the first place. Besides, cheese paring can only go so far before there is a loss in quality and/or quantity of the menu items, and when that happens, you loose business fast.

The easiest way to immediately reduce f.c. by 10% would be to raise the menu prices accordingly.

You can lower food costs by buying in larger quantities, as everything becomes cheaper if the volume is right, but this ties up the owner's money in perishable items with a finite shelf life. It is an option though.

Some Chefs have a secret weapon to fight f.c. --the wholesale wing of thier bakery or garde manger depts. I've known a few hotels that make some very good money supplying cakes and pastries to other businesses--or salad dressings/condiments or other items. It's money coming in not dependent on a'la carte sales.

Another area would be to lean on the catering sales dept. for more sales if the establishment has one. Catering -onsite or off-site--can bring in good money as well, and is much more cost effective than regular a'la carte dining.

You can lower your some of food costs-- dairy especially, as well as some dry goods and specialty cheeses/meats-- buy buying at Costco. Worked at several hotels that did this. As much as 15% can be saved buying dairy at Costco as opposed to buying from the dairy itself or the big purveyors. This requires about 4 hours a week plus some kind of transportation. Still, it is a very viable option.

A very dramatic option would be to cut out the a'la carte and only run table d'hote menus with only 3 choices of main, two each of app or dessert. Not great, but still an option if the owner is really breathing down your neck.

At one place the bakery supplier played hardball with us and I was told to reduce the bakery invoices by as much as possible. This bakery supplied us with sandwich loaves and burger buns. I managed to get chop 3o% off, but I had to spend $2,000 to do it. What I bought was a used proofer, used pullman pans and a Taiwanese bread slicer. I dropped the production bakery completely and went to frozen proof and bake. Within a week I had trained the d/washer to pull, proof, bake, and slice the sandwich loaves, and within a month she was made lead sandwich girl. Downside to this was the added manpower, more energy to run the ovens, and more freezer space for the frozen dough--the savings offset this easily, plus we had bragging rights to " in-house fresh baked bread", as well as no minimum orders from the bakery.

(2) Employee theft

All depending on where you live, firing the dude's azz might be the right choice, or it might land you fines for wrongful termination from either the labour board or the Union rep. Here are some of the questions you might have to answer:
Q: Mr. Chef, theft is a serious crime, do you have any other witnesses--other than yourself to lend credibility to your allegations against Mr. Smith?
Q: Mr. Chef, do you have notices (in English, Spanish, an whatever else) posted at all exists of the workplace notifying employees that no goods may be taken past these points? No? Are you aware that the employee parking lot is still on the workplace premises, and since you allege that Mr. Smith did not actually enter his vehicle, how could theft possibly occur?

As I said before, I don't know the local labour laws in your area. However, both the Labour Board and Unions represent the employee for free, so it never hurts or costs money to file such wrongful termination charges. Worst case scenerio is having Smith back at work looking for an opportunity to get even. D.A.M.H.I.K.T.

(3) Refrigeration

The walk-in is a safe, a Fort Knox, alot of money time, and product tied up in there. Correct, the first thing to look at is the fuse panel, if no breaker is tripped, then you examine the coil inside the walk-in. Very frequently during summer months or in steamy kitchens with the cooler door open for long periods of time, the warm moist air sticks to the coil and freezes on. The coil become plugged with ice and the whole system shuts down. It is an easy job to defrost this.

If the first two scenerios are not the problem, then you must call the repair guy. Refrigeration guys charge--in my area--$75 an hour, plus an additional $35 truck fee, and of course extra for parts and taxes. These guys usually have a lot of stuff on their trucks, but not everything. If they don't have it on board, then they have to go back, and you get to pay all over again. Correct, you need to call in the make and model, but also a description of the problem (Compressor runs constantly but temp is +9 and rising, or a horrible squealing from the compressor, etc) If the unit is older than 5 years you need to know the type of refrigerant it uses. These gasses change all the time and the guys will only carry the most common ones from the past 3-4 years on their trucks.

The above three scenerios are typical problems a Chef faces, but everyone handles them in different ways.

[ChefJohnny]

Technically, he said "those foodies who read the MC know more about food and cooking than 95% of Chefs out there." Thats where I take the offense.

That is not the same thing as being a better cook, which is what you actually seemed to take offense at. Food and cooking knowledge does not always translate into cooking skill, which is how you seemed to interpret the statement. Sculptor's statement is probably technically true, considering the depth of knowledge in MC. If you take offense at what he actually said, rather than how you interpreted what he said, then it seems to me that your ego is being bruised. Like you, I mean no offense, rather I'm just offering an opinion/observation. :)

Im not trying to continue this argument any more than need be, but I just want to make a couple things clear. My statements have nothing to do with "my ego." His comments weren't directed towards me, hence my broad statements about my industry. Im good at what I do. My skills/resume/knowledge isn't being debated. I don't think Im the one reading into what was originally said. Im taking the statement "foodies who read the MC know more about food and cooking than 95% of Chefs out there" quite literally. My profession is being thinned out with idiots that think they can learn to be a chef from reading books and searching online. (the "idiots" I speak of are these kids that are beginning to flood my inbox looking for jobs with zero qualifications, not necessarily members of this forum.) A few chefs, myself included, had this same discussion on twitter last week. Its complete nonsense and only hurts my industry.

Anyway, thats it for me on this subject.

[Edward J]

Like I said in previous posts, ther are no qualificatins/standards/benchmarks for cooks, and only one private society has them for Chefs.

Once standards are in place for "cooks", the b.s. will slow down enormously.

Once standards are in place......

Problem is, no one really is making any effort. Certainly not the schools, not the Unions, not the hospitality industry as a whole.