81 replies to this topic

[conifer]

andiesenji said:
In recent days there is the news that Autism had increased exponentially during the past three decades and while many people blame it on vaccines, this time period also coincides with the increase in adding GMO products to an enormous number of food products.

We've been genetically modifying food for as long as there has been agriculture. GMO has the potential to save poor people from untold suffering and death. Should we deny them that because we've created a bogeyman out of "frankenfood" with no real evidence to back it up?

[Snadra]

andiesenji said:
In recent days there is the news that Autism had increased exponentially during the past three decades and while many people blame it on vaccines, this time period also coincides with the increase in adding GMO products to an enormous number of food products.

We've been genetically modifying food for as long as there has been agriculture. GMO has the potential to save poor people from untold suffering and death. Should we deny them that because we've created a bogeyman out of "frankenfood" with no real evidence to back it up?

Industrial processes have undoubtedly increased crop yields around the world, as has selective breeding (and it's disingenuous to pretend gene splicing is the same thing done by people in white coats). However, it's arguable that the potential of GM to save the poor peoples from starvation would rely pretty heavily on the likelihood we can create food that self-distributes and ignores political borders. "Feeding the poor" is less a farming problem than a problem of distribution and politics.

[conifer]

I completely agree "feeding the poor" is as much a question of distribution and politics as it is of farming. That's why it's beneficial to be able to offer farmers, say, drought resistant corn, or wheat that can be grown in a more saline environment. Or, for that matter, insect resistant soy that doesn't have to be bombarded with tons of artificial pesticides to be grown. It lets farmers grow what's needed, where it is needed, rather than growing it in the US or Canada or Argentina or Australia and shipping it to the ass end of nowhere.

[tikidoc]

"In recent days there is the news that Autism had increased exponentially during the past three decades and while many people blame it on vaccines, this time period also coincides with the increase in adding GMO products to an enormous number of food products."

I know a couple of people have pointed this out, but I feel the need to address this again. Vaccines do NOT cause autism.

The initial article which proposed a link between vaccines and autism was written by Dr. Andrew Wakefield and published in The Lancet in 1998. An investigation later showed that his "research" was in part funded by lawyers of parents who wanted to sue vaccine makers for damages. He also held a patent on an alternative measles vaccine, which would have been more marketable as a result of his conclusions. Conclusions which were drawn on data from 12 children. Twelve. A sample size of TWELVE.

The article was retracted in 2010 and the author has since been totally discredited. And the evidence since has shown absolutely no link between autism and vaccines. None.

I bring this up again because the concept of this link remains very prevalent in anti-vax communities, and perpetuation of this myth puts kids at risk. The link does not exist, the article was FRAUDULENT.

As for the increase in autism, most experts believe that this is not a real increase in the incidence of the disorder, but an increase in awareness causing more kids to be diagnosed, in some cases, I think over-diagnosed, just like ADHD.

As to GMO foods, there are no studies that I am aware of that demonstrate health risks due to GMO foods. I think the biggest risk of GMO farming is the loss of plant diversity as a result. Monoculture farming is, in my opinion, a much bigger issue than the genetic modification of plants, as is the behavior of companies such as Cargill and Monsanto. They have an army of lawyers that sue farmers who have fields near fields of their plants, accusing the farmers of stealing their genetic material when the wind cross pollinates the plants. Organic farmers are now beginning to sue Monsanto for contamination of their crops with GMO pollen, and I applaud them for this.

And the things that these companies are doing in the Third World are beyond despicable. For an example, read the following.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1082559/The-GM-genocide-Thousands-Indian-farmers-committing-suicide-using-genetically-modified-crops.html

As to the examples of foods that we "should" eat organic, I'd like to see their references. Organic agriculture is just part of industrialized agriculture these days, and does not necessarily mean sustainable. I'd much rather eat locally produced pastured beef without the organic designation than organic beef raised on organic corn. The former results in a healthier product.

[weinoo]

andiesenji said:
In recent days there is the news that Autism had increased exponentially during the past three decades and while many people blame it on vaccines, this time period also coincides with the increase in adding GMO products to an enormous number of food products.

We've been genetically modifying food for as long as there has been agriculture. GMO has the potential to save poor people from untold suffering and death. Should we deny them that because we've created a bogeyman out of "frankenfood" with no real evidence to back it up?

"Genetically modifying" food by taking a cutting off of one plant and grafting it onto another is a totally different thing than genetically modifying a plant's genes via chemical and other methodologies.

Humans have been smoking tobacco for as long as there has been agriculture. Doesn't mean it's good for you.

andiesenji said it all much better than I can hope to.

[gdenby]

To reference the OP, how about looking not at what you must eat, but must not? From Fox:

http://www.foxnews.c...ould-never-eat/

[Fat Guy]

So we now have two lists. I think these form a useful basis for discussion, even if there are big holes.

The list of 8 things the iVillage people say you should buy organic:

1 beef
2 eggs
3 rice
4 wheat
5 ketchup
6 peanut butter
7 apples
8 strawberries

The list of 7 things the FOX people say you should avoid:

1 Canned Tomatoes
2 Corn-Fed Beef
3 Microwave Popcorn
4 Nonorganic Potatoes
5 Farmed Salmon
6 Milk Produced With Artificial Hormones
7 Conventional Apples

I thought it might be interesting to get some notes from this group, which I think is full of educated people struggling to make balanced food choices.

Here's where I fall on some of these:

beef - I have been buying mostly a brand of beef called OBE, primarily because I like it better than the standard beef next to it on the rack and it is not that much more expensive. That being said, if I buy beef once every month, it's a lot. My family does most of its meat eating out, and some places have better sources than others. That being said, OBE beef is from Australia, which raises questions of efficiency. I believe the beef is grass fed, which to me is nice when you're talking brisket and other braising cuts or grinding cuts, but when it comes to steak I think corn-fed conventional just tastes better. Not that I cook much steak at home anyway. I am also continually moving more in the direction of vegetarianism, because it's very hard for me to see the argument for 21st Century adult humans to eat animals, but I don't see a full transition any time soon in my future. Still, I just don't eat much meat anymore.

eggs - I was buying organic for a while, then I stopped. I've done a bunch of taste tests including with organic, conventional, and eggs from local farms. I think the conventional supermarket eggs I get are better-tasting than the organic (which cost double) primarily because they're invariably fresher due to high turnover and, ironically, shorter distance of transport. The eggs from farms don't really taste better to me and are as or more expensive than the organic, harder to get, and less predictable when used in baking and such. Farm market eggs tend to be more orange in color and have more yolk to white ratio, but do not to me taste different. The one thing I've really noticed tastewise is that the eggs I get at supermarkets in the US Southeast are better than in the Northeast.

rice - I like a brand called Lundberg, which is "Eco-Farmed," in other words not organic but using enlightened practices. I buy it because of the brands where I shop it tastes the best. I pretty much only cook brown rice. I'm happy to eat whatever crap white rice they serve me at Asian restaurants, though.

wheat - I just bought Pillsbury flour on sale; I never bother choosing better flour, though I have been incorporating a percentage of Trader Joe's "White Whole Wheat" flour into my pizza and focaccia dough and my wife, Ellen, has been doing the same in baking.

ketchup - the organic thing doesn't matter to me, however we did switch from Heinz to Hunt's a while back, in part because we like the taste a little better and in part because Hunt's is made without HFCS -- for whatever that's worth (as a parent I reserve the right to do stupid, unscientific things that make me feel I'm feeding my child better).

peanut butter - this imperative has not registered. Our favorite peanut butter, by the way, is Trader Joe's Valencia peanut butter with roasted flax seeds. Amazing product.

apples - I pretty much only buy local Northeast apples, and I'm not sure any are grown organically. I've never looked into it and don't really care.

strawberries - I buy them for a dollar a box when they're on sale at the green cart on the corner of 68th and Columbus. They are definitely not organic.

Canned Tomatoes - I almost exclusively use Pomi crushed tomatoes in the aseptic packaging, not canned, when I use packaged tomatoes. This product has the freshest taste to me. Some people don't like the Pomi tomatoes, I think because of the absence of salt. You have to add a bunch more salt than with canned in order to complete a recipe.

Corn-Fed Beef - Discussed above.

Microwave Popcorn - I never buy it. I pop popcorn in a pot.

Nonorganic Potatoes - We eat a lot of them, both white and sweet varieties.

Farmed Salmon - I love the farmed Atlantic salmon from Costco and would eat more of it if I went to Costco more often.

Milk Produced With Artificial Hormones - A lot of the brands in this region are made without. I mostly get Farmland at my local store, which says no antibiotics and no hormones. It is not organic and I don't care. I'm not sure I care about the antibiotics or hormones either.

Conventional Apples - As mentioned above, I think all the apples I get are conventional, though local.

How about you?

[Fat Guy]

I should add, one other virtuous thing I do is buy Murray's chicken exclusively. It is Certified Humane, though not organic.

I also eat a lot of food where I'm not aware of the provenance, especially at restaurants but also if I get something like sopressata on Arthur Avenue I haven't got a clue where the ingredients came from and I probably don't want to know.

[weinoo]

So basically you're about 50/50 on the list. Obviously, as a parent, I think that changes the whole discussion for you.

In your shoes, I believe the only changes I'd make for my kid would be with apples and potatoes, making sure they are organic, because they do seem to be the 2 produce products that are treated with tons of crap.

I also pop popcorn in a pot, with oil - Orville rocks.

My biggest, latest worry is whatever the stuff is in the cans that leaches into the product - especially in canned tomatoes, and since I don't like the Pomi product that much, I'm kind of at a loss. Unless I can find an acceptable jarred version that doesn't cost triple.

From my years in northern California, I believe artichokes are another veg that gets a lot of "treatment," and because of their structure they seem to retain a great deal of pesticides/fungicides/whatever. Finding organic artichokes, however, is practically impossible.

[Alcuin]

I said:
We're not going to feed 6 or more billion people on locally grown, pesticide and fertilizer free food. Not without chopping down all the rainforests and draining every river and lake for irrigation.

EatNopales said:
That is a myth.

Well, I'm glad that's cleared up! Care to cite some evidence. Peer reviewed evidence?

There's no such thing as scientific evidence of the kind it seems you're looking for about something has never happened or will happen in the future. That's because there's no empirical data on it, since no one has tried to feed six billion people and we have no experience of the future. But that's why we have arguments to go where no man has ever gone before. Like this one.

Appeals to "science" are often based much more on faith than on empirical evidence. Science is great, but there are so many questions it doesn't or can't answer, like this one. There's really no definitive way to say right now what the benefits and drawbacks of organic farming, or eating organic food. The science isn't there. To talk about the benefits of conventional farming for feeding the world, I'll believe it when I see it. It's possible, but there's no evidence to back up something that has never happened.

On the other hand, we are beginning to learn about the environmental problems associated with conventional farming. If we were to compare organic to inorganic fertilizers and look at their environmental impacts, that's where it's possible to point to some evidence. It seems to me that the evidence points to a much worse environmental impact for inorganic fertilizers.

[Alcuin]

To speak to Fat Guy's question about what we eat that's organic or not. Here goes:

Vegetables: everything organic, except when I buy from the Chinese grocer (definitely not organic) or Hmong farmers at the farmer's market (may be organic, may not be).

Eggs: I eat Phil's eggs which are certified humane but not organic. They are a dollar cheaper than organic eggs.

I use Sassy Cow milk whenever I use milk, but I don't keep it around.

For butter I use "Local Source." Interestingly they don't use rGBH but note on the package that there's no significant difference between using it or not.

I eat Willow Creek Farms pork which is organic and humane, and beef, lamb, and sometimes pork from a co-op called Black Earth Meats. I try to buy the grass fed from Black Earth, since the organic is more expensive.

For chicken I use good old Bell and Evans, since it's cheaper than the other chicken usually available to me, and I've gotten used to air dried chicken which is way better.

For rice, I use the 25lb bag I get at the Chinese grocer. For AP flour I usually use Gold Medal, but for some other stuff like rye I use the organic stuff from the bulk bins.

Sometimes I buy Choice beef from a market a little further away than where I usually go, and I'm sure it's not organic because it's too cheap for that. This is often a huge hunk of chuck for grinding into burgers or making a pot roast out of. The grassfed/organic stuff is prohibitively expensive for that. If I want a big fat steak, I usually go to Whole Foods and buy whatever they have.

I'm lucky to have some really good sources for food around me. The organic stuff is typically (though not always) more expensive, but if you shop intelligently it's actually not too bad (buy what's cheap, often what's in season, and find a way to use that).

For salmon, I usually eat wild because that tends to be cheaper in my market for some reason. I'm not sure why.

I avoid farmed shrimp from anywhere but the US or Canada like the plague. The environmental impact and the way shrimp are farmed in many places in Asia are very scary.

I eat a lot of mackeral and sardines, because they are full flavored and cheap.

Most of this stuff, I buy because it's the best I can get. The environmental or health benefits are a great bonus though, and I have to say I've gotten used to it. It would be hard to go back, because I like the choices that I've made for a lot of reasons at this point. That said, I'm not going to buy produce or meat or anything of bad quality just because it's organic. That's where I draw the line.

[rotuts]

one of the problems with apples is that the trees are sprayed with pesticides, then the apples are sprayed with a type of wax to keep them from drying out so that they may be kept in cold storage for a long time.

Most apples you get in the supermarket are 'previous crop.' Even the imported apples from our Southern Friends below the equator.

The wax treatment prevents you from washing off the pesticides. Next time you are in your market look at the tip of the apple stem: it's probably dried out, as no wax got there while the apple was on the tree.

In Season, say late fall in N.E. or similar times else-where: look at that stem again on 'fresh' apples: it wont be dried out. It will still be likely coated with the wax. Lemons and Oranges are treated similarly.

Ive grown my own apples in the past, and used dormant light oil spray. Its 'organic' in the sense its light machine oil. It coats the larvae etc that have wintered over, and deprives them of oxygen so that most of them die. You do this twice for each season, two weeks apart to increase your 'kill yield'. If you mis-judge the weather, and that oil gets on the buds at the wrong time, Bingo: no new fruit as it also deprives the buds of oxygen. What this oil does as it evaporates or combines with the ground water is a different question.

That's why major orchards dont use dormant oil spray. The closer to the 'bud-time' the more effective it is. Should they mis-calculate and get a warm spell: no apples.

Edited by rotuts, 01 April 2012 - 11:01 AM.

[conifer]

Before Norman Borlaug got his groove on in Mexico and India, things weren't looking good for a lot of people, food-wise. Does the Green Revolution count as conventional farming? There's nothing traditional about it, but it's the farming that most people, or their parents for that matter, are familiar with. It takes huge inputs of petrochemicals. It's saved an estimated billion people from starvation, raised yields between 300 and 1000%, and made food affordable for most. That is an amazing thing. But is it sustainable? It's very susceptible to increases in oil prices, there is the whole issue of destructive and vulnerable monocultures and probably other problems that people more knowledgeable than I can think of. What do we do when it becomes too expensive (because of petroleum inputs) or is hit by a corn or rice or soy disease that has a large detrimental effect (as has happened before, with bananas, for example). What do we do? Yes, ideally, we would all switch to seasonal, locally and organically grown food, but that just isn't going to feed everyone. Even if it did, do people really understand what that would do to the diet of someone living in New England or Northern Europe? Is that desirable or realistic? I don't think so.
Should we be splicing genes willy-nilly? Of course not. Are Monsanto and it's ilk paragons of virtue? Not at all, no for-profit business is. But we have these tools and we should use them prudently and for the benefit of those who need them the most, and not just reject anything new because it is scary or "not natural". And people should for sure open their eyes and realize that seeing the word "Organic" on the package of a product does not in any way, shape or form mean that it's necessarily going to be better for you than something that isn't. I'd much rather eat something that's not organic than something that is, but was raised by a large agro-business in a monoculture farm using exploited labour, and has a list of ingredients on the label longer than my arm.

[annabelle]

Well, rotuts, you just peel those apples! It turn out my kids were right when they were small and insisted that the skins were "yucky".

I'm kind of on the fence about whether Monsanto and its cohorts are The Evil Ones. I'd think, strictly from a business standpoint, that it would be foolish for them to do many of things of which they are accused. They are there to grow food, sell it and make a profit. Profit is not a dirty word. As to their litigating small famrmers who are "stealing" their product, that sounds dubious, but possibly true. Personally, I want a world where no one goes hungry. Or, in the words of Dinesh D'Souza "I want to live in a world (he actually said country) where the poor people are fat." Coming from an immigrant from starving India, I can understand his sentiment completely.

Is organic "better"? I remain unconvinced and due to my ever more slender pocketbook, I can't afford a five dollar head of elderly looking lettuce, but rather a 99¢ head of crisp lettuce that is grown in California.

[Fat Guy]

Mitch, I would definitely encourage you to give Pomi another try. I've made several converts. It just takes some time to adapt to the reduced salt content and different behavior of the produce. I'll also note that I believe Muir Glen uses BPA-free packaging for its canned tomatoes.

I'm eager to read some independent research on BPA in tomato packaging and whether it matters, and similar information on potatoes and apples.

[FoodMuse]

Approximately 3 years ago I began having serious and scary allergic reactions to certain fruits and most berries. My doctor said to try organic and now I can eat most of them again. I assume a new type of pesticide was introduced that I'm sensitive to. It's lovely to be able to eat berries again. Some of these comments poo pooing organic are pretty ignorant.

Organic is not meaningless to me.

[andiesenji]

My last few words on this subject are to reiterate the fact that the enormous agri-business companies do modify foods in ways that we don't have and can't get accurate information about.

The "proprietary secrets" laws, that allows them to hide what they do, often for decades, makes me wonder how we will ever know what exactly is happening.

Sometimes it is only a small "twitch" of a chromosome that makes the difference between good and bad.

For example, Deadly Nightshade with the fruit commonly known as "Devils Cherries" is only slightly removed genetically from the tomato, a bit further removed is the potato, and also eggplant and tobacco.
I'm not suggesting that some mad scientist in one of the labs is going to produce a poisonous tomato (the stems leaves of the plant already are) but there are other concerns. You can't save seeds of hybrids and grow new viable plants. You have to have an heirloom variety to do this.
Farmers all over the world now have to rely on purchase of new seed grain each year for many crops because these have been modified so the grain (corn especially) won't germinate so year after year, even when there are poor crops, the farmer has to buy more seeds to plant.

If there is a blight or other plant disease that develops and affects widely distributed modified crops, there will be devastating famine and it can happen anywhere.
I remember the late 1940s when the tobacco mosaic blight destroyed not only much of the tobacco crop where I lived in western Kentucky, but also tomato and potato crops and further south affected a lot of the cotton crop. At the same time there was a drought and the combined problems wiped out many farmers in that area because they depended on a single crop to exist.

I am fully aware that the entire world can't be fed on "sustainable" farming, but if those of us who can afford it do support the people who are willing to put the considerable effort into producing foods in the BEST possible way, not the cheapest, we are helping form a hedge against having all our eggs in one basket, so to speak.

[Alcuin]

Mitch, I would definitely encourage you to give Pomi another try. I've made several converts. It just takes some time to adapt to the reduced salt content and different behavior of the produce. I'll also note that I believe Muir Glen uses BPA-free packaging for its canned tomatoes.

I'm eager to read some independent research on BPA in tomato packaging and whether it matters, and similar information on potatoes and apples.

I use Muir Glen and they switched to non BPA cans about a year or so ago. I realized this when I noticed a distinctly tinny taste where there wasn't one before. I still use Muir Glen, but don't like it as much.

I've tried Pomi, but the only tomatoes I can get from them are pureed or diced and I like whole plum tomatoes so I'm sticking with the Muir Glen.

[annabelle]

Approximately 3 years ago I began having serious and scary allergic reactions to certain fruits and most berries. My doctor said to try organic and now I can eat most of them again. I assume a new type of pesticide was introduced that I'm sensitive to. It's lovely to be able to eat berries again. Some of these comments poo pooing organic are pretty ignorant.

Organic is not meaningless to me.

If eating organic foods is helping you with what you perceive to be allergies, than I would continue to do so. Has your doctor since checked you for allergic reactions to foods? As you say, many people are sensitive to foods (it is nuts for me) but not allergic. You have made an assumption about a pesticide that is not conclusive. It could have been/still be something else.

Asking questions about the benefits or deficits of foods and how they are grown is merely gathering information and not being "ignorant".

[FoodMuse]

"helping you with what you perceive to be allergies"

Are you kidding me? My lips swelled up and my throat closed. Is that fact or merely my perception? It doesn't happen with organic fruits.

[weinoo]

Mitch, I would definitely encourage you to give Pomi another try. I've made several converts. It just takes some time to adapt to the reduced salt content and different behavior of the produce. I'll also note that I believe Muir Glen uses BPA-free packaging for its canned tomatoes.

I'm eager to read some independent research on BPA in tomato packaging and whether it matters, and similar information on potatoes and apples.

I will on the Pomi. But it's also good to know that Muir Glen cans are ok, as that's one of my favorite brands of canned tomato.

[gdenby]

Peanut butter is something I have been considering for some time, and have not yet come to a conclusion. It is important to me because my wife, and the last kid in the house eat it on a daily basis. Together, they go thru more than a pound a week. My wife doesn't really care, but my opinion of most of the store brands is that she might as well be having ice cream for breakfast, but she couldn't spread that on toast.

From what I can find, purely organic Valencia peanut butter costs about $11/lb. High quality natural is locally about $5. The $5 is something I can manage. (For $6, we could have lean organic ground beef.) On the other hand, the mainline brands test for the smallest amounts of aflatoxins, and evidently have miniscule pesticide residues. The peanut butter she and the kid like best is above $6. It is ground at the store, but has no organic assurance. I'm inclined to buy organic raw, and roast and grind my own.

Organic beef, yes, about 50% of the beef we eat. The flavor is so much better, that the organic consideration does not even need to be added to the decision. The farm we buy from has expanded to provide some produce. The potatoes are not much more than the cost of good quality from the market, and the quality is there. Unfortunately, they don't seem to produce a lot. I clean out half the bin whenever I buy. So most of the potatoes I eat are "conventional."

Apples, as above, only need to be peeled.

I can get eggs (and chicken) that are not organic, but are not raised with antibiotics or growth hormones. The eggs I buy in part out of habit, because the farm has had a stall at the market for as long as I can remember. And they have duck eggs briefly in the spring, and I'm glad to support that.

I find most market strawberries to be so flavorless that I rarely bother. My strawberry intake is mostly from wild. My wife and I, along with the kids, have spent many hours happily hunting wild. That, unfortunately, is something I suppose few could do.

Popcorn is done is a brown bag.

Try to eat non-farmed fish, but am a sucker for farmed trout.

We don't use much milk anymore, but I would have been much more concerned when the kids were little. Each one drank about 48 oz. a day when they were little, and I wonder what problems this might have caused them, because I'm certain that hormones were being widely used for at least some of the period.

As far as feeding 6 billion goes, that deserves its own thread. But it appears that industrial or organic, meat will be a luxury item.

Got to toss one last thing in. Speaking of meat and luxury. As I mentioned above, organic beef can be had for less than organic peanuts. As I pointed out to my son the other day, even the "white foam" bread at the market can cost more per pound than the refrigerated chicken. And if buying high quality mass produced bread, or artisanal bread, a lot of beef and pork is cheaper per pound. I find this a strange inversion. Meat should be the outside of a sandwich, with a deli thin slice of bread in the center.

[annabelle]

"helping you with what you perceive to be allergies"

Are you kidding me? My lips swelled up and my throat closed. Is that fact or merely my perception? It doesn't happen with organic fruits.

Did you mention any of this in your original post? No, you did not.

My point remains the same; you don't know for a certainty that the non-organic fruits were the cause. Many times there are other things going on and we seize on what seems to be the culprit. As I said before, if it is working for you, than certainly continue to eat organic fruits. Your claims of their efficacy remain anecdotal and not confirmatory.

[andiesenji]

"helping you with what you perceive to be allergies"

Are you kidding me? My lips swelled up and my throat closed. Is that fact or merely my perception? It doesn't happen with organic fruits.

Did you mention any of this in your original post? No, you did not.

My point remains the same; you don't know for a certainty that the non-organic fruits were the cause. Many times there are other things going on and we seize on what seems to be the culprit. As I said before, if it is working for you, than certainly continue to eat organic fruits. Your claims of their efficacy remain anecdotal and not confirmatory.

There is a saying, "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is probably a duck."

Severe allergic reactions to foods (anaphylactic shock) are objective symptoms that can be recognized by informed lay people as well as physicians or other healthcare workers. These allergies can be from the fruits themselves or from pesticides or fungicides with which they have been treated or any component used to make or carry those pesticides.

There are certain pesticides that cause these same symptoms in persons who become sensitized to them and this is not just people who consume the fruits. Workers who are exposed to them repeatedly have suffered and some have died when adequate protection was not used.

Note this statement in the link: "A victim of hypersensitivity feels terribly alone, and helpless. Worse, they are easily dismissed as 'just' psychosomatic by those of us who are unaware that most of the emotional turmoil is a result of the illness and our reaction to it, not the cause. These are real symptoms, terribly real."

Not all the pesticides found on fruits brought to market were intended for those fruits. Overspray from drifting, airborne pesticides, sprayed from a plane onto cotton crops in San Joaquin valley, affected thousands of almond trees near Bakersfield, CA, a few years ago. Fortunately the fruit of these trees are only the carrier for the interior nut but if those trees had been apricot trees, a related species, those apricots would have been affected and that particular organophosphate pesticide would have been throughout the flesh of the fruit, not just on the surface.

Since that episode more stringent laws about spraying from planes - wind levels, etc., have been put in place but nothing is 100% sure.

Edited by andiesenji, 02 April 2012 - 12:25 PM.

[FoodMuse]

andiesenji, Thank you for your post. I really appreciate it. Very interesting reading, especially about the cropdusting drift.
It is so insulting to have allergies and have people be dismissive. My brother has ended up in an ER twice for his seafood allergy. He can't eat out anymore. If the food he eats is prepared anywhere near seafood it affects him. Another brother can't eat raw apples or carrots.


annabelle, Here is what I said.
"serious and scary allergic reactions to certain fruits and most berries"

I used the term allergic, not sensitive. What part of the word "scary" do you not understand? How about a little more empathy and a little less internet trolling?

[andiesenji]

andiesenji, Thank you for your post. I really appreciate it. Very interesting reading, especially about the cropdusting drift.
It is so insulting to have allergies and have people be dismissive. My brother has ended up in an ER twice for his seafood allergy. He can't eat out anymore. If the food he eats is prepared anywhere near seafood it affects him. Another brother can't eat raw apples or carrots.


annabelle, Here is what I said.
"serious and scary allergic reactions to certain fruits and most berries"

I used the term allergic, not sensitive. What part of the word "scary" do you not understand? How about a little more empathy and a little less internet trolling?

When I first wrote that response I included an incident that happened to me years ago when a person decided to prove to me that my allergy to alcohol was "all in my head."
At a party she served chili to which she had added some raw alcohol - no way to taste it.
A few minutes later I developed the early symptoms which got steadily worse and I used my Epipen which helped a bit but I still had difficulty breathing so someone called 911 and I was transported by ambulance to an ER, where I spent 6 very uncomfortable and expensive hours.
The person who did this admitted to it and after some threats of legal action, paid the portion of my medical expenses that weren't covered by my insurance. I did not sue for pain and suffering but I could have.

[annabelle]

[quote name='FoodMuse' timestamp='1333411435' post='1871444']
andiesenji, Thank you for your post. I really appreciate it. Very interesting reading, especially about the cropdusting drift.
It is so insulting to have allergies and have people be dismissive. My brother has ended up in an ER twice for his seafood allergy. He can't eat out anymore. If the food he eats is prepared anywhere near seafood it affects him. Another brother can't eat raw apples or carrots.


annabelle, Here is what I said.
"serious and scary allergic reactions to certain fruits and most berries"

I used the term allergic, not sensitive. What part of the word "scary" do you not understand? How about a little more empathy and a little less internet trolling?
[/quote}

I work in a medical laboratory, so I hardly qualify as a "troll", thank you.

As andiesenji says, it could be the fruits, it could be the pesticides. I asked you a clarifying question, that's all.

[Alcuin]

To get back on track...

I find myself drinking a gruner veltliner tonight, and noticed that the label says that it's made with organic grapes. I've seen a lot of wines that are organic or biodynamic, but it doesn't seem like most wines I drink make a big deal out of it. I certainly don't pay much attention to organic wines. I also have the sense that a lot of wines may be organic, or close to it, but don't have the certification. It seems to me that wine makers that want to produce good wine aren't using pesticides. But I actually don't know. This is just an assumption I've always made.

I don't really pay much attention to organic wine, but think it might not make a big difference unless you're drinking Yellow Tail or $2 Trader Joe's wine (who knows what they do to make a $2 wine). What's the thinking about organic wine?

[FoodMuse]

andiesenji,
That is terrible what happened to you, thanks for sharing it. I'm so glad you're ok. There are chef's who don't believe in allergies and will spike foods with the ingredient a customer has said they can't eat. I know that happened once with one of my brothers.

This is disturbing reading. A chef brags about poisoning his guests.
http://glutenfreewor...h-gluten-pasta/

Yes Alcuin,
Back to the subject. I wouldn't think much about drinking organic wine unless I had a reaction.

[ChrisTaylor]

Regarding farmed fish, surely farming--kind of like paper companies planting their own little forests--fish is better for the environment than overfishing wild salmon, tuna, etc.

My concern--and understand that I'm not shitting on the concept of 'organic' food here, it's just a concern--is that oftimes, organic food is marketed, by both companies and the people who swear by it ('it tastes better', 'it's better for you', 'it's all natural') in a way that makes it sound very much like alternative medicines. The fact that already we've had the 'links' between autism, GM food and vaccines brought up drives that point home. As someone actually on the big scary spectrum, I'm always, always, always amused by the 'vaccines/bad food did it' line. I'd love to see some double-blind trials showing that people really, truly prefer the flavour of organic beef, eggs, wheat, etc. It doesn't shock me that people often say nice things about the flavour organic meat--altho' I wonder if it's less to do with the fact that this steak is organic than the probability that someone who is determined to jump through all the hoops to get an 'organic certified' sticker is probably also prepared to put a bit of extra effort into what he/she feeds the animals, how much 'free roaming' space he/she gives the animals, etc. I'd also want to see actual scientific evidence--not just some quack from a news website--that says organic oranges are better for me than nonorganic oranges (or apples or tomatoes or potatoes or chicken thighs or eggs or rice) before buying into the idea that organic equals healthier. I'm far too cynical to just play along with the idea that oh, man, chemicals are bad and big food companies are evil, therefore the small producer that charges thrice the going rate for Roma tomatoes is a saint.

Edited by ChrisTaylor, 03 April 2012 - 01:51 AM.