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Pink Slime


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133 replies to this topic

#121 Paul Kierstead

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:20 AM

I just Google "life span/expectance by country"


Oh come now, that isn't even remotely valid to your assertion. Many of those countries have very significantly different farming practices and regulations, different eating habits, etc. Their focus on "organic" may well be different, but partly because half the stuff US agri gets up to isn't legal there anyway, or not an issue in the first place. And their life expectancy are very tied up in availability of health care, diet etc. Correlating that to the concern over organic is utter hogwash. Or pink slime, or something...

#122 gfweb

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:35 AM

Even without references, I suspect that dcarch is right. Choice of parent has more to do with longevity than choice of diet. Not that diet can't improve things, but if longevity is the goal then genes rule.

No I don't have references.

#123 dcarch

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:39 AM



I just Google "life span/expectance by country"


Oh come now, that isn't even remotely valid to your assertion. Many of those countries have very significantly different farming practices and regulations, different eating habits, etc. Their focus on "organic" may well be different, but partly because half the stuff US agri gets up to isn't legal there anyway, or not an issue in the first place. And their life expectancy are very tied up in availability of health care, diet etc. Correlating that to the concern over organic is utter hogwash. Or pink slime, or something...


I have been to two of those places, Hongkong and Macao. They only import farmed seafood from China, pesticized produce, MSG in dishes, ----etc. No health care system in those places.

dcarch

Edited by dcarch, 04 April 2012 - 08:40 AM.


#124 Paul Kierstead

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:01 AM

So, the fact they eat a great deal of sea food (not beef) and maintain much lower levels of obesity is not a leading factor? What is your point? They are shorter too. Does that mean shorter people live longer?

#125 Paul Kierstead

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:06 AM

Also, "Macau has a universally accessible single-payer system funded by taxes collected by the government from corporations and residents." (wikipedia). Hong Kong heavily subsidises health care.

#126 tikidoc

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:14 AM

Again, outside of the ammonia (and I don't know the health implications of that), feeding this to your children may be giving them poor quality beef, but I can't see how it could be construed as dangerous assuming the beef has the same bacteria counts, etc. that slime-less beef has, and I've yet to see facts presented that say it is systemically bad (naturally there will be cases where it is bad, just like there are cases where spinach is bad, due to poor handling and inspection).


The problem is that this stuff has been exempted out of the bacterial testing required for ground beef. And spot and voluntary testing HAS identified contaminated batches. See http://www.nytimes.c...&pagewanted=all

So you CANNOT assume the bacterial counts are acceptable, and unless someone gets sick, we are unlikely to know because testing is not required.

#127 Paul Kierstead

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:40 AM

But testing has revealed contaminated batches of regular beef as well, I am sure. It would need to be shown that pink slime is consistently higher, and that it is because of the process and could not be reasonably corrected. In either case, the problem would appear to be the exemption from testing, the the existence of the product.

#128 dcarch

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:51 AM

So, the fact they eat a great deal of sea food (not beef) and maintain much lower levels of obesity is not a leading factor? What is your point? They are shorter too. Does that mean shorter people live longer?


It is possible that shorter people live longer, but of course I was only pointing out that there are places where non-organic food culture does not prevent long life expectance.

dcarch

#129 tikidoc

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:56 AM

But testing has revealed contaminated batches of regular beef as well, I am sure. It would need to be shown that pink slime is consistently higher, and that it is because of the process and could not be reasonably corrected. In either case, the problem would appear to be the exemption from testing, the the existence of the product.


I don't think it needs to be shown that the risk is higher, it needs to be shown that there is a high enough risk to justify the testing. The regular beef is tested, the "pink slime" is not. BOTH should be.

#130 Paul Kierstead

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:09 AM

It is possible that shorter people live longer, but of course I was only pointing out that there are places where non-organic food culture does not prevent long life expectance.


Ah, well, then we can all join in. For example, Japan has much higher smoking rates than the US. Japan has much longer life expectancy than the US. Mozambique has very low life expectancy. Mozambique people very likely don't care about organic food. I'm sure we can all add in random facts about life expectancy.

#131 Alcuin

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:12 AM

I am disgusted with the reactions of theoretically sophisticated forum members to the term "pink slime". If you have been consuming ground beef from a source and found it acceptable or even tasty and have now found out it contains "pink slime" and changed your mind you remind me of someone who eats a dish and likes it until they are informed it contains anchovies or liver.
If the "pink slime" additive is healthy for you what difference should it make? Would this subject be hot topic if some PR activist had not thought up the term "pink slime". I am reminded of the campaign against farmed Atlantic salmon hybrids using the name "Frankenfish". Instead of an intelligent discussion of the pros and cons, we have a visceral reaction stirred up deliberately by negative marketing term. Those who accept the concept of eating the cow from nose to tail(now trendy) should welcome the conaervation of beef parts which would otherwise have gone to waste.


Talk about theoretically sophisticated! You're making a whole lot of assumptions. People don't typically appreciate being talked down to as if they are faux-sophisticates or children grossed out upon finding that they've eaten food they think they don't like. So, let me tell you my reasons for being against this stuff. I won't speak for others in these forums, but for me it has nothing to do with the term "pink slime." Would you prefer to call it "boneless lean beef trimmings"? That's a pretty outrageously misleading term. I'll just call it "stuff" from here on out.

What I react against is this: due to a profit motive that seeks to wring ever more out of the raw product, beef distributors began selling this stuff for human consumption whereas before it was deemed fit only for pet food. Does this seem like progress to you?

Also, what do you mean by "healthy"? You seem to suggest that healthy means "it won't cause you immediate or visible harm." Otherwise, I can't see how this stuff is healthy in the sense that it is good for your health, the commonly accepted defining of "healthy." Why is this stuff sprayed with ammonia? Because it is heated to 100F to loosen the "meat" so it can be centrifuged off. As I'm sure you're aware, 100F is prime growing conditions for bacteria. The ammonia is there because the meat is put well within the danger zone according to USDA recommended guidelines. But it's ok if its hidden in what is marketed as ground chuck or ground sirloin? Give me a break.

If this were done in a restaurant don't you think inspectors would be all over it? That's why the idea that this is anything like nose to tail eating is the most ridiculous red herring. This is not about taking some nice sweatbreads and lovingly preparing them. Do you really think nose to tail eating is anything like heating beef bones to 100F and centrifuging every last particle off of them, treating it with ammonia to kill the bacteria you just created, and then putting it into ground beef that is labelled as ground chuck or ground sirloin, or at the very least rests on the assumption that the only thing in the package is ground meat and not centrifuged ammonia treated meat paste? Searing some liver and serving it with onions is a far cry from this.

But how about this, let's just properly label the stuff as an additive, using a neutral term that doesn't conceal what the substance is but that represents it for what it is as objectively as possible (sorry, but this is not likely to be a positive term in that case). Then you can eat it all you want, and everyone who wants to can avoid it. Problem solved.

Also, as a sidenote, I haven't been eating this stuff for years. I've been grinding my own beef since I got my kitchenaid and when I do go to restaurants for a burger, the meat doesn't have an additives. But that's just me, and I'm lucky to live in a place where that's possible.
nunc est bibendum...

#132 tikidoc

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 11:55 AM

Dear Alcuin,

Clap, clap, clap.

You said much more eloquently what I have been trying to say.

Thank you.

Jess

#133 SJMitch

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 01:02 PM

Of course they're blaming the negative publicity. Nothing like being hounded out of business to make one a tad bitter.


My understanding is that AFA was a highly leveraged company and therefore overly sensitive to demand fluctuations. I.e. poor managment is the cause. Also, it's chapter 11 bankruptcy, so they aren't being 'hounded out of business' yet (and maybe never).

They claim they only use the ammoniated beef at the request of their customers. That leads me to believe that it is the temporary drop off in ground beef demand that is the cause. If it was simply consumers moving from ground beef with ammoniated trimmings to untreated ground beef, there wouldn't be a drop off, their food service clients would just order it without the ammoniated parts.

Why would consumers back away from ground beef in total instead of just ground beef with the ammoniated trimmings? I suspect lack of labelling is the cause: if the consumer doesn't have confidence in the product, they won't buy it at all. Accurate labels would help restore that confidence. It would also allow the cheaper ground beef to remain in the food supply for those who are happy to have cheaper product and agree the ammoniated trimmings are safe.

Heck, this labeling works for somewhat similar (but different) meat product that got bad press as well: Mechanically separated meat. Chicken processd this way is required to be labelled 'mechanically separated chicken'. Some suppliers have moved away from it (e.g. McDonalds), while others continue to use it and consumers continue to buy it happily (e.g. Slim Jims).

So besides bad management, lack of accurate labeling is likely also a major cause of beef processors' woes.

#134 IndyRob

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:00 PM

Uh oh, time to check our shopping lists...

Q: In what foods is ammonium hydroxide used in processing?

A: The list of foods in which ammonium hydroxide is used as a direct food additive is extensive and includes baked goods, cheeses, chocolates, other confectionery (e.g., caramel), and puddings. Ammonium hydroxide is also used as an antimicrobial agent in meat products.

Ammonia in other forms (e.g., ammonium sulfate, ammonium alginate) is used in condiments, relishes, soy protein concentrates/isolates, snack foods, jams and jellies, and non-alcoholic beverages.

The World Health Organization has listed hundreds of food types that may be processed using ammonium hydroxide when used in accordance with good manufacturing practices. These include dairy products, confections, fruits and vegetables, baked goods, breakfast cereals, eggs, fish, beverages such as sports drinks and beer, and meats.


http://www.foodinsight.org/Resources/Detail.aspx?topic=Questions_and_Answers_about_Ammonium_Hydroxide_Use_in_Food_Production