152 replies to this topic

[David Ross]

I don't love the idea of "cream". Would you consider doing 3? Adding one with milk?

Yes, 1-no dairy, 1-cream, 3-milk!

[nickrey]

After reading this thread I am still confused about the definition of Ragu and the definition of Bolognese. I always thought a ragu was generally a tomato based meat sauce characterized by a soffrito and long cooking of the meat. Most any kind of meat was acceptable, including goat and rabbit or a mix of meats; you used what you had.

Ragu Bolognese was in my mind a regional ragu that differed by the use of less tomato product and the addition of milk. Very useful if fresh tomatoes are out of season and you don't have any canned tomatoes on hand. Should it be called Bolognese if it doesn't have milk in it? I suppose a case can be made that if you live in Bologna you can call it whatever you want. Straighten me out on this.

Katie,

Ragu is a meat-based sauce. Bolognese is a subtype of the class ragu. Hence ragu Bolognese, ragu alla Napolitana, etc. They are not necessarily tomato based; for example, ragu con fegatini contains chicken livers, white wine, and cream.

Edited by nickrey, 11 November 2011 - 11:06 PM.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Sorry, no additional details and I don't understand Italian so I was just watching. It was a traditional ragu but had two interesting aspects (or three if you count the use of rabbit) - firstly he deglazed with brandy (and flamed it) not wine, and secondly the caramel. Apart from that it was a standard ragu, the caramel went in at the end. I'd be interested to know how much of the brandy flavour remained in the sauce, and whether it has a particular affinity with rabbit or whether it's just what was handy. I guess one day I'll try it and see if it's for colour, flavour, or both.

Someone mentioned goat - it's traditional in Italy to serve goat at particular religious periods of the year. I guess that if you use goat in a ragu it's no longer ragu alla Bolognese, even if everything else stays the same, but it's certainly delicious! I'd have to be honest and say that in a blind taste test I couldn't tell it from lamb, but I wouldn't be worried either way... Generally the meat from the ragu is served as its own course, and the sauce is served with pasta. This again is interesting to compare with the traditional ragu alla Bolognese, where the sauce is solely intended to be served with pasta. But other regional variations may follow the same basic technique to produce a meat dish, of which the sauce is served with pasta as something of a by-product.

That gives me more ideas--serving the meat as a separate course and the strained sauce with pasta for another course. One could even stretch the theme and do an appetizer with pancetta--sort of a Bolognese tasting menu.

If you are able to remove the meat from the sauce, you are not making Bolognese; you are making Sunday gravy, another worthy cookoff subject.

[Mjx]

. . . . something I find fairly typical among those who are used to eating Italian-American food, and who perhaps as a result have certain notions about what "Italian pasta sauce" is supposed to taste like -- which is to say: tomato-based and highly spiced for the most part (unless it completely breaks away into something like carbonara or pesto). A preference for dry herb flavor has especially become a common expectation because using lots of dried herbs has become a way for restaurants and manufacturers of jarred sauces to obscure the lower quality of their base products. And, of course, when one becomes habituated to a certain flavor profile in a certain dish, any retreat from that can seem bland . . . .

This is a reason, I think, why so many are tempted to add herbs and extra tomatoes to dishes like ragu Bolognese which would otherwise seem bland to them. It's because the rich meatiness of ragu Bolognese doesn't taste like what they have come to expect out of an Italian pasta sauce. It's not dissimilar from those for whom "pizza sauce" is a highly flavored, dry-herbed cooked tomato sauce, and who find the Neapolitan base of crushed tomatoes and sea salt bland and uninteresting. This is especially interesting to me because the same people don't generally find, say, beef Stroganoff over egg noodles to be bland and in need of punching up with herbs and extra garlic. Most likely, I think, it's because we have the conception of beef Stroganoff as being rich and meaty and not highly spiced. I would argue, by the way, that tagliatelle al ragu Bolognese has more in common with beef Stroganoff on egg noodles than it does with strongly flavored tomato-based Italian pasta dishes like bucatini all'amatriciana and spaghetti alla putanesca and Italian-American red sauce. So, for me personally anyway, when we start thinking of tagliatelle al ragu Bolognese under a separate paradigm than the one we use to think about these highly spiced/flavored tomato-based pasta dishes, suddenly it doesn't seem like it needs extra tomato, spices, garlic, whatever.

I find the sauce so intense, it is difficult for me to perceive it as bland, and I wonder whether the 'blank slate' aspect of the seasoning doesn't also simply tempt people to play with that aspect of it. I mentioned upthread that for me, this is a very medieval-feeling sauce, and accordingly, a clove and a bay leaf find their way in. Their presence is unobtrusive, but seems to mesh nicely with a certain gamey quality of bolognese.

. . . .
One final note - I was watching an Italian cooking show and the chef was making a basic rabbit ragu, but at the end he caramelised some sugar in a frying pan and poured it into the sauce. I haven't seen caramel mentioned before so perhaps it can be added to the list of potential discussion points...

Sounds to me like another version of using a sweet note in a dish involving game. Haven't seen this particular version before, but sweet preserves often show up, and also grape must.

I don't love the idea of "cream". Would you consider doing 3? Adding one with milk?

Unless the quantity of cream exceeds that traditionally used, it doesn't make the sauce creamy, because it (and the milk) is cooked down for so long. That said, I find versions with cream a bit... dull, but this may be at least partly attributable that to the fact that I find the concept of dairy in a savoury dish really, really off-putting (and, since the traditional arguments against using dairy in bolognese are as strong as those for it, I won't be using any when I make the sauce a little later today).

[ChrisZ]

As with many legendary recipes, there are literally thousands of variations of Bolognese-the meat, the vegetables, the spices, the “tomato” element and the pasta are all points for heated discussion and that’s exactly why we’ve chosen Bolognese sauce for our latest Cook-off.

I mentioned earlier that I really like the Bolognese episode of "In search of perfection", and I've experimented with Heston Blumenthal's recipe for the perfect "spag bol" a few times. So I decided to give it another go, this time with photos.

This is an interesting recipe because it's the result of an attempt to bridge two worlds- firstly the world of the traditonal ragu alla Bolognese, and secondly the world of the English/American/Australian "spaghetti bolognese" - a tomato based pasta dish that, as Heston says, "does not exist in Italy". As I mentioned a few posts earlier, it is theorised that the westernised "spaghetti bolognese" didn't actually evolve from the traditional Bologna dish, but rather was the result of Italian migrants adding meat to their more familiar tomato sauces simply because they could afford to. If this is true, then ragu alla Bolognese and spaghetti bolognese have quite separate histories.

So this recipe was developed for a TV show, and it's more complex than the traditional ragu alla Bolognese while trying to remain familiar to those who grew up with 'spag bol'. Regardless of how you think it fits into the overall Bolognese discussion, it's a very tasty dish and is one of Heston's more accessible recipes. I've veered away from the exact recipe in a few places - firstly I've used 100% beef where the original calls for a mix of ox tail and pork, and secondly I haven't used the exact herbs that Heston uses.

1) The first step, recognisably Heston, is to caramelise some onions with star anise.




2) I roughly cut up the beef and added my own variation - a few teaspoons of liquid smoke.


After a short period of marination, the beef was quickly browned in a smoking hot pan, and the pan was deglazed using chardonnay.



3) The basic soffrito (heavy on the carrots) is sauteed while the chardonnay reduces in the background.



4) Then the meat, chardonnay reduction and caramelised onions are added along with 1 cup of milk, some water, and then everything is left to simmer gently for 6 hours.


5) With vine-ripened tomatos on sale, I decided to stick to the actual recipe and make the tomato sauce from scratch. Normally I'd just use 2 cans. The fresh tomatos are peeled, and the pulpy centres are scooped out and collected in a strainer. This pulp is salted and left to drain- the liquid actually has more flavour than the tomato flesh, which is chopped up and added to a saucepan that has sauteed onions in it. Out of interest, I weighed the liquid that drained from the tomato pulp and it was exactly 250grams. The pulp is discarded, the liquid is added to the tomatos.





6) So now we have two pots simmering on the stove. The large one with the meat in it, and the smaller one with the tomato sauce.


7) This is where we veer away completely from traditional, and firmly into Heston territory! The tomato sauce is pepped up with a range of ingredients that add depth and umami, none of which you'll see in an Italian recipe for Bolognese! These include sherry vinegar, fish sauce, worcestershire sauce, tobasco sauce, more star anise, cloves and ground coriander seeds. I have loads of parmesan rinds saved in the fridge so I added a small piece too.


8) These two pots are left to simmer. When the tomato sauce has simmered for two hours it has reduced to a thick consistency and tastes absolutely delicious, with loads of depth while still being instantly recognisable as a tomato sauce.

9) To finish off the tomato sauce, about 100mls of olive oil is added and the sauce is "fried" over high heat for a few minutes. The sauce is then drained and the oil saved. I actually weighed the oil to see how much of it I got back and I ended up with slightly more than the 100ml I started with! This is a rich, deep yellow, tomato flavoured oil that will be used to dress the pasta.

The tomato sauce is now added to the meat and the ragu is left to simmer for an addional two hours.


10) Finally, after a total of 8 hours simmering, the dish is ready to serve. I boiled supermarket parpadelle and when it was cooked, it was drained and then tossed in some of the tomato oil. In the last few minutes, fresh herbs were stirred through the ragu (basil and thyme), along with a few dobs of butter. The ragu is seasoned with salt, pepper and a dash of sherry vinegar, and served on top of the pasta with a dash of fresh parmesan. Some more tomato oil is dotted around the plate.



I've made this recipe a few times and cut different corners every time. It's safe to say that the single most defining element of the recipe is the star anise, which adds a distinctive depth that doesn't taste like aniseed or fennel. I don't think I'll bother with the fresh tomatoes again, as it's much easier to use canned and the end result is basically the same. The fresh herbs don't seem to add much either, and I'm not sure you'd notice if they weren't there at all.

It's definitely not ragu alla Bolognese, and it's a step up from basic 'spag bol'. But it's delicious!

[slkinsey]

After reading this thread I am still confused about the definition of Ragu and the definition of Bolognese. I always thought a ragu was generally a tomato based meat sauce characterized by a soffrito and long cooking of the meat. Most any kind of meat was acceptable, including goat and rabbit or a mix of meats; you used what you had.

Ragù more or less means "a dish or sauce made out of a bunch of ingredients long-cooked together with meat." Think about its relationship to the French word ragoût. This may include tomatoes, but it doesn't have to include tomatoes. The meat is almost always present in the sauce, but it doesn't have to be present in the sauce and the meat may be served in as a separate course (e.g., ragù Napoletano). As with many things Italian, there is not great consistency in nomenclature and regional customs abound (Italian only became the majority language spoken in the home as recently as the 1980s!). However, generally speaking, if the meat is cooked in the sauce but not included in the sauce, the sauce is usually called "sugo di [something]" -- unless, of course, it is a preparation that's traditionally called "ragù." So, for example, I have some friends who run a trattoria and when they make ossobuco they sometimes have a lot of leftover braising sauce. This leads to a special of "gnocchi al sugo di ossobuco" (or tagliattelle or whatever pasta they feel like serving with the ossobuco braising sauce). I suppose they could technically call it "ragù di ossobuco," but unless it contained substantial amounts of ossobuco meat in the sauce my experience is that they wouldn't be likely to call it that.

[David Ross]

As with many legendary recipes, there are literally thousands of variations of Bolognese-the meat, the vegetables, the spices, the “tomato” element and the pasta are all points for heated discussion and that’s exactly why we’ve chosen Bolognese sauce for our latest Cook-off.

I mentioned earlier that I really like the Bolognese episode of "In search of perfection", and I've experimented with Heston Blumenthal's recipe for the perfect "spag bol" a few times. So I decided to give it another go, this time with photos.

This is an interesting recipe because it's the result of an attempt to bridge two worlds- firstly the world of the traditonal ragu alla Bolognese, and secondly the world of the English/American/Australian "spaghetti bolognese" - a tomato based pasta dish that, as Heston says, "does not exist in Italy". As I mentioned a few posts earlier, it is theorised that the westernised "spaghetti bolognese" didn't actually evolve from the traditional Bologna dish, but rather was the result of Italian migrants adding meat to their more familiar tomato sauces simply because they could afford to. If this is true, then ragu alla Bolognese and spaghetti bolognese have quite separate histories.

So this recipe was developed for a TV show, and it's more complex than the traditional ragu alla Bolognese while trying to remain familiar to those who grew up with 'spag bol'. Regardless of how you think it fits into the overall Bolognese discussion, it's a very tasty dish and is one of Heston's more accessible recipes. I've veered away from the exact recipe in a few places - firstly I've used 100% beef where the original calls for a mix of ox tail and pork, and secondly I haven't used the exact herbs that Heston uses.

1) The first step, recognisably Heston, is to caramelise some onions with star anise.




2) I roughly cut up the beef and added my own variation - a few teaspoons of liquid smoke.


After a short period of marination, the beef was quickly browned in a smoking hot pan, and the pan was deglazed using chardonnay.



3) The basic soffrito (heavy on the carrots) is sauteed while the chardonnay reduces in the background.



4) Then the meat, chardonnay reduction and caramelised onions are added along with 1 cup of milk, some water, and then everything is left to simmer gently for 6 hours.


5) With vine-ripened tomatos on sale, I decided to stick to the actual recipe and make the tomato sauce from scratch. Normally I'd just use 2 cans. The fresh tomatos are peeled, and the pulpy centres are scooped out and collected in a strainer. This pulp is salted and left to drain- the liquid actually has more flavour than the tomato flesh, which is chopped up and added to a saucepan that has sauteed onions in it. Out of interest, I weighed the liquid that drained from the tomato pulp and it was exactly 250grams. The pulp is discarded, the liquid is added to the tomatos.





6) So now we have two pots simmering on the stove. The large one with the meat in it, and the smaller one with the tomato sauce.


7) This is where we veer away completely from traditional, and firmly into Heston territory! The tomato sauce is pepped up with a range of ingredients that add depth and umami, none of which you'll see in an Italian recipe for Bolognese! These include sherry vinegar, fish sauce, worcestershire sauce, tobasco sauce, more star anise, cloves and ground coriander seeds. I have loads of parmesan rinds saved in the fridge so I added a small piece too.


8) These two pots are left to simmer. When the tomato sauce has simmered for two hours it has reduced to a thick consistency and tastes absolutely delicious, with loads of depth while still being instantly recognisable as a tomato sauce.

9) To finish off the tomato sauce, about 100mls of olive oil is added and the sauce is "fried" over high heat for a few minutes. The sauce is then drained and the oil saved. I actually weighed the oil to see how much of it I got back and I ended up with slightly more than the 100ml I started with! This is a rich, deep yellow, tomato flavoured oil that will be used to dress the pasta.

The tomato sauce is now added to the meat and the ragu is left to simmer for an addional two hours.


10) Finally, after a total of 8 hours simmering, the dish is ready to serve. I boiled supermarket parpadelle and when it was cooked, it was drained and then tossed in some of the tomato oil. In the last few minutes, fresh herbs were stirred through the ragu (basil and thyme), along with a few dobs of butter. The ragu is seasoned with salt, pepper and a dash of sherry vinegar, and served on top of the pasta with a dash of fresh parmesan. Some more tomato oil is dotted around the plate.



I've made this recipe a few times and cut different corners every time. It's safe to say that the single most defining element of the recipe is the star anise, which adds a distinctive depth that doesn't taste like aniseed or fennel. I don't think I'll bother with the fresh tomatoes again, as it's much easier to use canned and the end result is basically the same. The fresh herbs don't seem to add much either, and I'm not sure you'd notice if they weren't there at all.

It's definitely not ragu alla Bolognese, and it's a step up from basic 'spag bol'. But it's delicious!

Thank you for your in-depth review of a decidely uncoventional Bolognese. You've brought forward some very interesting issues that we've already lightly touched upon but we should discuss further--1) When we admit to changing the "traditional" Bolognese, whether it be the issue of milk/cream, herbs or the "tomato element," are we not honoring the Mother sauce by introducing new flavors? 2) In the restaurant kitchen it would be sacrilegious to call Chef Blumenthal's dish "Bolognese." So is a professional Chef obligated to call the dish "Ragu in the 'Bolognese' style" when it isn't traditional?

[Mjx]

. . . . You've brought forward some very interesting issues that we've already lightly touched upon but we should discuss further--1) When we admit to changing the "traditional" Bolognese, whether it be the issue of milk/cream, herbs or the "tomato element," are we not honoring the Mother sauce by introducing new flavors? 2) In the restaurant kitchen it would be sacrilegious to call Chef Blumenthal's dish "Bolognese." So is a professional Chef obligated to call the dish "Ragu in the 'Bolognese' style" when it isn't traditional?

Dishes always evolve, but, beyond a certain point they become something else, so they outgrow the original name. But rather than think in terms of feeling obligated to call it a name that says it's almost-but-not-quite bolognese, it makes sense to think in terms of one now having the privilege of calling it something else, say, 'ragù Ross'

My bolognese is simmering away the last of the broth. It smells distinctly livery (I used chicken livers), which makes the clove and bay leaf more important, I think. I'm still pondering the use of gelatin.

[David Ross]

. . . . You've brought forward some very interesting issues that we've already lightly touched upon but we should discuss further--1) When we admit to changing the "traditional" Bolognese, whether it be the issue of milk/cream, herbs or the "tomato element," are we not honoring the Mother sauce by introducing new flavors? 2) In the restaurant kitchen it would be sacrilegious to call Chef Blumenthal's dish "Bolognese." So is a professional Chef obligated to call the dish "Ragu in the 'Bolognese' style" when it isn't traditional?

Dishes always evolve, but, beyond a certain point they become something else, so they outgrow the original name. But rather than think in terms of feeling obligated to call it a name that says it's almost-but-not-quite bolognese, it makes sense to think in terms of one now having the privilege of calling it something else, say, 'ragù Ross'

My bolognese is simmering away the last of the broth. It smells distinctly livery (I used chicken livers), which makes the clove and bay leaf more important, I think. I'm still pondering the use of gelatin.

At first I wasn't sure about the strong flavor of the clove, but now it makes total sense based on your description. Liver and clove seems like a very natural pairing of flavors.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

These variations on a theme suggest a corollary of the Unitarian Women's Annual Stew Dinner. 50 women would volunteer to make a batch of beef stew while strictly adhering to a supplied recipe. Of course, there were always 50 completely different dishes on the banquet table.

I think what is lost in this thread is the frequent subtlety of Northern Italian cooking, causing us to want to "spice it up a bit". Many of us grew up on Italian-American recipes with their dependence on garlic, the heavier herbs (marjoram, oregano, bay) and tomato reflecting origins from Rome through Sicily. Lots of Italian food is "quiet". It got boisterous after coming to America.

Edited by Margaret Pilgrim, 12 November 2011 - 08:59 AM.

[Mjx]

This time, I decided to combine Rossetto Kasper's presentation of the traditional recipe in The Splendid Table with some of the ideas from Cook's Illustrated's interpretation (which involves chicken liver and gelatine), along with my own logic at any given moment (the last broke down in several places).



Raw ingredients, in order of appearance in the pot: 210g pancetta (7.4 oz), 400g beef (14.1 oz), 500g pork and veal blend (17.6 oz), 150g chicken livers (5.3 oz), a clove, a large carrot, a celery stalk, a medium onion, 70g tomato paste (2.5 oz), 250mL white wine (about a cup), 1L chicken stock (a little under a quart; reduced last night from 2L).





I'm doing this in my boyfriend's parents' kitchen (we're staying with them while we're house hunting), so I knew this would alter my usual approach.
I'd originally planned on unpacking the 30cm, straight-sided, deep stainless skillet I normally use, then realized it is much too large for even the largest burner on the stove, so went with a heavy cast iron pot, instead; the only other choice that was even close to large enough was a skillet that was way too shallow to contain the ingredients.

I wanted to work with the fat in the meat, adding as little extra as possible, so I decided to start by sautéing the pancetta



Then I added the beef, and pork and veal mix.



Because the pot is very curved, and has a relatively small base, the fluid from the meat accumulated over a quite small area, throwing off clouds of steam (also made taking pictures a little challenging).



I didn't want to steam/boil the meat before it browned, so I pushed the meat to the sides of the pot, and cooked off the liquid, until only fat remained, then, in the clear space at the centre, I sautéed the livers, which I then mashed up with a fork.



I stirred the meat together. It was at this point that I realized that unless I was willing to give it a very long time with constant vigilance over a fairly high heat, it was never going to really brown, because relatively little of the volume was in contact with the pot at any given time, and very little of the pot was in contact with the heat.

At this point, my boyfriend's father began his daily trumpet practice. He decided that he would not practice in the kitchen as usual, and moved to another room, but my boyfriend's mother stayed in the kitchen and sang along, so I wouldn't miss out.

I pushed the meat to the sides of the pot again, saw there was very little fat, added a little olive oil, and then added the carrot, celery, and onion. As I did this, I realized it was an idiotic and lazy move: Naturally, as I began stirring the vegetables, the meat continuously crowded them, and tumbled in amongst them. I carried on regardless, since there seemed to be no other reasonable option at that point.



My boyfriend wandered into the kitchen, grinned, and asked whether there was anything he could do; I demanded port. I continued mucking about with the sauté until the onions looked translucent, then tumbled everything together. My boyfriend returned with the port, which I drank while staring at the anaemic-looking mass in the pot.

At this point, I decided to take heart from the fact that peposo (where raw beef is simply boiled for hours with tomatoes and water) comes out just fine, even in the absence of any browning: I'd just start adding the liquid, and hope for the best. I added about 70g tomato paste, 250mL of wine, and 375mL broth (Time=12.12).



I continued adding enough broth to just be visible at the surface of the meat, at roughly half-hour intervals. According to the discussion in Cook's Illustrated, dumping all the broth in at one go works just as well as adding it at intervals, but I was using a litre of of broth, rather than 2 cups, which I felt would make a difference.

A little over three hours later, all the broth had been added, and the liquid was reduced to the point that, if I was planning on adding gelatine I should probably do it now. I scooped through it and decided that a bit more cohesiveness mightn't hurt, so I added 17g of gelatine, about half the amount recommended in the Cook's Illustrated version, but given the presence of two litres of reduced broth, it seemed a safe decision. I also added a large pinch of nutmeg and a about 23 grinds of coarsely-ground black pepper, because the distinct livery/gaminess seemed to call for a something to balance it out.

Time=15.33: The ragu is meaty, unctuous, and too intense to eat straight, which I find usual for this sauce.





No picture of this over pasta, because I've been asked to make salmon for dinner tonight (not entirely pleasing to my boyfriend, who wanted to know why he'd been left out of this decision), but I'll add that as soon as it happens.

[David Ross]

Was there a reason for using red onion over say a sweet yellow onion or was the red just what you had on hand?

[Mjx]

It's what was on hand. My boyfriend was sweet enough to do the shopping for this (I was racing to meet a deadline), so I made the list as loose and flexible as possible, so I'd have some form of everything I needed.

Incidentally, the clove is apparently only noticeable if you're told about it, and sniff for it; the predominant note is liver, which I haven't decided whether or not I like.

[David Ross]

It's what was on hand. My boyfriend was sweet enough to do the shopping for this (I was racing to meet a deadline), so I made the list as loose and flexible as possible, so I'd have some form of everything I needed.

Incidentally, the clove is apparently only noticeable if you're told about it, and sniff for it; the predominant note is liver, which I haven't decided whether or not I like.

The liver in my Bolognese was very subtle. However, I put a lot of chicken liver in the meat sauce I use for Canneloni and Lasagna. It adds the unctuous creaminess when combined with the besciamella and tomato sauce I used in those dishes.

[Shelby]

Such lovely looking sauces, everyone!

Sorry my pictures are a tad blurry. I was multi-tasking lol.

I started mine at 4:00 p.m. yesterday.

It took a lot longer because I had to grind up the goose and the duck.

I used the largest holed grinder attachment and I only ran the meat through once. I wanted to leave the meat big enough so that it didn't cook down to nothing.

Beginning at the top left and going clock-wise:

Mallard, Speckled Belly Goose, Blue Wing Teal



I mixed about 1/2 a tube of plain pork sausage with the goose/duck grindage. Wild goose and duck are both very lean. I also threw in about 1/3 of a cup or scantly less of some sausage spices I had laying around. And, a good bit of black pepper.



Starting top left and going clock-wise:

Venison, bacon, duck/goose/pork mix, plain pork.



I also have some chicken livers that I might add later today. I was afraid to put them in early because I didn't know how "liverish" the duck/goose was going to be. After tasting this morning, I am amazed at how good this is. You don't taste any "liver" taste except for a faint tinge of deep "meatiness" in the back of your throat (if that makes sense). So, what do you think? Should I chop up some of the chicken liver, sautee in butter and add to my bolo?

Carrot/onion/celery--I like my veggies a bit chunky.



Beginning at the top and going down:

Veggies, Duck/goose mix, Venison





I couldn't resist frying up a patty of the duck/goose. OMG is it good. In fact, I made breakfast sandwiches with English muffins, runny eggs and those patties for my husband to eat this morning while pheasant hunting.

[Mjx]

It's what was on hand. My boyfriend was sweet enough to do the shopping for this (I was racing to meet a deadline), so I made the list as loose and flexible as possible, so I'd have some form of everything I needed.

Incidentally, the clove is apparently only noticeable if you're told about it, and sniff for it; the predominant note is liver, which I haven't decided whether or not I like.

The liver in my Bolognese was very subtle. However, I put a lot of chicken liver in the meat sauce I use for Canneloni and Lasagna. It adds the unctuous creaminess when combined with the besciamella and tomato sauce I used in those dishes.

Did you use the 1 lb ground meat to 1/2 lb chicken livers (2:1 ratio) of the recipe you mentioned ?

I used about 31.7 oz ground meat to about 5.3 oz chicken liver (roughly, 6:1 ratio), and I'm finding the liver's presence pretty assertive... and I like liver. I'm trying to figure out what's goingon, here.

[Shelby]

Ok, so this is after adding a cup or so of milk:



Milk cooked out:



Here I added a couple shakes of nutmeg.

After adding a cup of white wine:



After the wine cooked out, I added a couple of roughly chopped up tomatoes from my now frozen garden. These were barely starting to turn red when I picked them to save them from the frost. They are no where near as good as summer tomatoes, but better than store bought for sure. After adding them, I didn't feel like there were enough, so I opened a can of these and put roughly 3 or 4 in. (forgive Newman, the cat's legs. He's a show-off)



After that, I had a large moment of panic thinking I'd added too much tomato. But, I think it's ok.

I dumped it all in a slow cooker:




and turned it on low for 2 hours last night. I turned it off before I went to bed.

Here it is this morning before stirring:



It's too runny, right?

After stirring:




I have it on low, now and I guess I'll let it simmer there all day??? Everything I've read says that the longer you cook it, the better......

Again, should I add the chicken livers now?

Some thoughts:

It sure was hard for me not to add garlic. But, after tasting this morning, I don't miss it a bit. I also thought I'd miss basil etc. but, nope. This sauce is not gravy, but it's definitely going to be added to my cooking rotation.

This is the richest sauce I've ever tasted. You couldn't take more than a couple of bites without pasta (IMO).

Next time I make it, I'll make a much bigger batch.

My husband is thrilled that we've come up with a new way to eat geese and ducks.

I'm ready for any ideas and thoughts. :)

[Mjx]

. . . .Mallard, Speckled Belly Goose, Blue Wing Teal. . . . pork sausage . . . .

That is a delicious-sounding combination, and I thought it was interesting that you too found the liver very mild, since my sauce smells so livery to me (making things more confusing, my boyfriend isn't getting this note at all, although he has a far better sense of smell than I do, most of the time).

I simmered my sauce until the last of the litre (about a quart) of broth I added was reduced, which came to about 3 hours and a quarter. I guess you could simmer it covered after that, but my experience is that it is one of those things that improves each time you reheat it, sort of like pinto beans.

[Shelby]

. . . .Mallard, Speckled Belly Goose, Blue Wing Teal. . . . pork sausage . . . .

That is a delicious-sounding combination, and I thought it was interesting that you too found the liver very mild, since my sauce smells so livery to me (making things more confusing, my boyfriend isn't getting this note at all, although he has a far better sense of smell than I do, most of the time).

Well, again, I didn't add any chicken liver yet. I find goose and duck (at times) to be very livery tasting, so I was scared to add the real liver.


And, you are a brave woman...living with trumpet-playing in-laws lol.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

It sure was hard for me not to add garlic. But, after tasting this morning, I don't miss it a bit. I also thought I'd miss basil etc. but, nope. This sauce is not gravy, but it's definitely going to be added to my cooking rotation.

This is the richest sauce I've ever tasted. You couldn't take more than a couple of bites without pasta (IMO).

Next time I make it, I'll make a much bigger batch.

My husband is thrilled that we've come up with a new way to eat geese and ducks.

Way to go! It is definitely not "gravy".

And you will be thrilled with a duck version. It is swoon-producimg. My favorites are duck, pork, rabbit.

I make probably a gallon a month of various kinds to pass on to grown "kids" who keep it on hand in the freezer. I use wide-mouth jars so they can just thaw the edges and turn out into a saucepan for fast-food dinner.

[David Ross]

It's what was on hand. My boyfriend was sweet enough to do the shopping for this (I was racing to meet a deadline), so I made the list as loose and flexible as possible, so I'd have some form of everything I needed.

Incidentally, the clove is apparently only noticeable if you're told about it, and sniff for it; the predominant note is liver, which I haven't decided whether or not I like.

The liver in my Bolognese was very subtle. However, I put a lot of chicken liver in the meat sauce I use for Canneloni and Lasagna. It adds the unctuous creaminess when combined with the besciamella and tomato sauce I used in those dishes.

Did you use the 1 lb ground meat to 1/2 lb chicken livers (2:1 ratio) of the recipe you mentioned ?

I used about 31.7 oz ground meat to about 5.3 oz chicken liver (roughly, 6:1 ratio), and I'm finding the liver's presence pretty assertive... and I like liver. I'm trying to figure out what's goingon, here.

No, I fudged on the liver to meat ratio in the classic recipe I used. I only used about 3 chicken livers, sauteed in butter but left rare, then minced and put into the meat mixture.

[Shelby]

It sure was hard for me not to add garlic. But, after tasting this morning, I don't miss it a bit. I also thought I'd miss basil etc. but, nope. This sauce is not gravy, but it's definitely going to be added to my cooking rotation.

This is the richest sauce I've ever tasted. You couldn't take more than a couple of bites without pasta (IMO).

Next time I make it, I'll make a much bigger batch.

My husband is thrilled that we've come up with a new way to eat geese and ducks.

Way to go! It is definitely not "gravy".

And you will be thrilled with a duck version. It is swoon-producimg. My favorites are duck, pork, rabbit.

I make probably a gallon a month of various kinds to pass on to grown "kids" who keep it on hand in the freezer. I use wide-mouth jars so they can just thaw the edges and turn out into a saucepan for fast-food dinner.

Oh! Interesting! I've never used mason jars in the freezer like that. Great idea!

[Mjx]

. . . .I also have some chicken livers that I might add later today. I was afraid to put them in early because I didn't know how "liverish" the duck/goose was going to be. After tasting this morning, I am amazed at how good this is. You don't taste any "liver" taste except for a faint tinge of deep "meatiness" in the back of your throat (if that makes sense). . . .

Heh, I misunderstood that as your having added them to the sauce

. . . .Did you use the 1 lb ground meat to 1/2 lb chicken livers (2:1 ratio) of the recipe you mentioned ?

I used about 31.7 oz ground meat to about 5.3 oz chicken liver (roughly, 6:1 ratio), and I'm finding the liver's presence pretty assertive... and I like liver. I'm trying to figure out what's goingon, here.

No, I fudged on the liver to meat ratio in the classic recipe I used. I only used about 3 chicken livers, sauteed in butter but left rare, then minced and put into the meat mixture.

I thought that looked less less than half a pound of livers!

[David Ross]

Chef Pellegrini told me that typically Bolognese is paired with a flat pasta like Pappardelle or Tagliatelle and preferably fresh. We don't have much in terms of fresh-made pasta where I live, but we do have a very good, small Italian market where I bought dried Pappardelle, Tagliatelle and Cencioni. Cencioni is literally "little rag" pasta-a befitting name for its shape which looks like shards of torn rags. It's smooth on one side and textured rough on the other side so any sauce will cling better to it. I wasn't familiar with Cencioni when I spotted the package in the store, but it was flat, little scoop spoons if you will and I thought it would hold up well to the Bolognese.

Left to right-Pappardelle, Tagliatelle and bottom, Cencioni-


I love Pappardelle, but the brand I bought is somewhat thin and falls apart quickly. For a tough sauce like Bolognese with a lot of structure, I went with the Tagiatelle which was thicker yet the width of the noodle was thinner than the Pappardelle. The Cencioni took a lot longer to cook, about 30 min. in boiling, salted water. In the end, the Cencioni would prove to be my favorite.

[Katie Meadow]

Ragù more or less means "a dish or sauce made out of a bunch of ingredients long-cooked together with meat." Think about its relationship to the French word ragoût. This may include tomatoes, but it doesn't have to include tomatoes. The meat is almost always present in the sauce, but it doesn't have to be present in the sauce and the meat may be served in as a separate course (e.g., ragù Napoletano). As with many things Italian, there is not great consistency in nomenclature and regional customs abound (Italian only became the majority language spoken in the home as recently as the 1980s!). However, generally speaking, if the meat is cooked in the sauce but not included in the sauce, the sauce is usually called "sugo di [something]" -- unless, of course, it is a preparation that's traditionally called "ragù." So, for example, I have some friends who run a trattoria and when they make ossobuco they sometimes have a lot of leftover braising sauce. This leads to a special of "gnocchi al sugo di ossobuco" (or tagliattelle or whatever pasta they feel like serving with the ossobuco braising sauce). I suppose they could technically call it "ragù di ossobuco," but unless it contained substantial amounts of ossobuco meat in the sauce my experience is that they wouldn't be likely to call it that.

This is fascinating. I never had a clue what sugo meant and leftover sauce from braised meat is one of my favorite things! I looked up several definitions of sugo and it can be as basic as "sauce" which I think is a little misleading, or as specific as: "a sauce made by adding stock, flour or other ingredients to the juice and fat that is rendered from cooked meat." That is also a little misleading, since in my mind that is gravy--as in what happens when the turkey comes out of the oven. Not to be confused with what Margaret Pilgim noted is "sunday gravy" which often refers to the whole pot of braised meats that is then divided and served in two parts: the meat, and a portion of pasta al sugo. I prefer a broader more middle-ground approach as Sam describes above, meaning simply the sauce without the meat that cooked in it. That way it applies to what I love about the leftovers of Coq au Vin: the chicken is long gone, but the sauce on rice is the last meal.

Apparently sugo is from the Latin "to suck" (and that would be suck in the best possible way.) As in serve the succulent sauce that is left over after the meat has been eaten or removed over some yummy carbs (whether pasta, polenta or rice) and suck. It. Up.

To get back on topic, I did make a Bolognese once, from a Batali recipe. I don't think it was a bad recipe, but I came to the conclusion that I simply don't like the idea of milk in a meat-based sauce.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

[Shelby]

Mouth droolingly gorgeous.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Just another example of "keep it simple, stupid" plates. We overthink, overwork and over season much of what we do. To say nothing of over-sauce at serving, the anathema of homeland Italian cooking.

[David Ross]

Well, today I finished my Bolognese challenge with three variations of the sauce, 1) No cream or milk, 2) With milk, 3) With Cream. Each dish was served with the Cencioni pasta and garnished with a small amount of finely grated Parmesano-Reggiano. I must say I was surprised with the results:

No cream or milk-


With milk-


With cream-


The first version, sans dairy, was not technically "traditional." It had good texture and substance and decent flavor. The second version, with milk, had an added creaminess but not an overpowering creamed flavor. It tempered the first sauce and had added flavor. The third version was my least favorite. The cream almost tasted bitter in competition with the meats and the small amount of chicken liver. In fact, I pushed the bowl aside after just a few bites. I definately won't be eating a Bolognese made with cream in the future.

Which version was my personal winner? #2 with the addition of milk. I was suprised yet gave myself a bit of a chuckle. I learned that in my case of searching for Bolognese, the traditional style with dairy, aka milk, was the best.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Bravo, David. I am, as I'm sure others are, interested in your expected results.