214 replies to this topic

[Will]

One tips a percentage of the bill, 20-25%. Lets not discuss if one should tip before or after taxes, O.K.?

By doing so, the tipper acknowledges that the waiter/ess is soley responsible for the entire dining experience.

The waiter/ess works vey hard, but then again, everyone in that restaurant is partly responsible for the dining experience.

Why then, doesn't the diner acknowledge these people as well?

The person "tips" the server, however, for the most part, except maybe where the boss / owner is also the chef, my understanding is that the servers generally "tip back" to the other front-of-house and kitchen staff, based on a general formula. This happens both in small hole in the wall places and in large places with huge staffs; in fancier restaurants, there are probably fewer patrons and more staff, but the bills are also larger.

I would say that a tip acknowledges the entire restaurant staff; the waiter is just the member of the staff that you usually interact with the most.

[ScoopKW]

In every place I've worked, the server tips out the busperson and the bartender. The bartender tips out the barback. Back of the house doesn't get any tips, unless they're working a front of the house cooking position -- sushi bar, teppanyaki or similar.

In general, front of the house makes more money. Back of the house is more steady. Front of the house sometimes will work all day and not make a penny. (If a guest walks out on a bill, it almost ALWAYS comes out of the servers pay. So, I've seen expensive "dine and dash" (aka, the "chew and screw") where servers have their hourly garnished for weeks to pay for a party of thieves*.


* I have never seen foreign visitors to the US perform the "dine and dash." That seems to be a home-grown crime. But I'll wager servers lose more income yearly from poor-tipping foreign visitors than they do from dine-and-dashers.

[pastrygirl]

If I may, I would like to point out the obvious elephant in the room:

I would love to see either no tipping or a system where everyone who works makes the same base wage (there would have to be a scale based on experience, but bear with me this is fantasy land) and tips are divided among all according to hours worked. Of course Americans tend to be so afraid of anything that sounds like socialism (god forbid we be weathering this economy as well as Canada is or have the standard of living that Norway does, but I digress) so the latter isn't going to fly. When Thomas Keller opened Per Se, I remember reading that the service charge was to be distributed in such a way as to narrow the income gap between front and back of house. Good for TK. In places I've worked where the kitchen gets tips, it has been a paltry percentage, adding up to $100-150 a month per cook, but even a hundred bucks goes a very long way to make people feel appreciated and not resentful. Tipping, and especially servers talking about the cash in their pocket creates so much animosity within the industry. You just worked 10 hours and will be taking home a hundred bucks after taxes, and the servers are bragging about walking with two bills after their 6 hour shift? Talk about urge to kill...c'mon people, have a little tact. The current American tipping system seems to work for the vast majority of servers, no matter how much they bitch and moan about an occasional cheapskate. They don't really want to change the system, or work for an hourly wage 40 hours a week, or not have a flexible schedule and cash in hand. Servers just tend to be very vocal, and a lot of people have done the job in the past and can commiserate. Try this: ask a server what their actual gross income for the past year was, divide it by 2000 (40hrs/wk x 50weeks) (or if you want to assume that a server should be able to make a living on 25/30/35 hours a week, adjust the total number accordingly) and ask them if they would do their same job for that hourly wage. I bet a majority would say no because they are sure they can make more and don't want to be limited to just that hourly wage, they know they can upsell and get 25% or more, more, more.

Edited by pastrygirl, 14 November 2011 - 12:14 PM.

[Edward J]

The person "tips" the server, however, for the most part, except maybe where the boss / owner is also the chef, my understanding is that the servers generally "tip back" to the other front-of-house and kitchen staff, based on a general formula. This happens both in small hole in the wall places and in large places with huge staffs; in fancier restaurants, there are probably fewer patrons and more staff, but the bills are also larger.

I would say that a tip acknowledges the entire restaurant staff; the waiter is just the member of the staff that you usually interact with the most.

Ummm---no. In many places it is illegal to ask/require a waiter to share tips, California being one such place. Ther are many arguements that a waiter has to protect his tips, the main one being that the money was given directly to him, with no written or oral obligations given by the guest to share.


And as ScoopKW illustrates clearly, the cooks (boh, back of house) are not entitled to any tips even though many requests are asked from them from the wait staff to "enhance" the dining experience.

What I'm trying to say is this: There is a social custom in N.America where a restaurant patron is expected to tip the waiter a percentage of the bill. This is enforced by media, movies, TV. etc. What is also enforced by the media is that the guest--after tipping the waiter--instructs the waiter to pass along a verbal compliment to "the boys in the back", dab his lips on a napkin, and walk out.

[Pedroinspain]

So are we all onboard that the anomalously high % involved in 'tipping' in the USA is mostly a salary supplement to compensate for an archaic law and that hidden in there somewhere is also a non-transparent 'thank-you' for appreciated service? In other words can we agree that an ethical person should tip a minimum of (?) 15% just so that the waiting staff can keep the wolf from the door, irrespective of the quality of the food, service, cleanliness, etc. And that then (say) there is 5% for a nice smile, good recommendations, quality dining and attentive service?

That is quite a complex story to get across, given (from the content of this thread) that many Americans don't even understand it properly and still believe that a 20% tip if for good service alone.

I'm not convinced ignorance is the only reason for non-tipping and under tipping. I've simply seen too many instances where "stingy, parsimonious, niggardly, miserly, and just plain mean" are better descriptors. Especially when they call for the manager to have the tip removed from the bill, and then leave the restaurant laughing about it. This happens far too often to be chalked up to simple ignorance of our customs.

And there's still that German guidebook I read -- I have a feeling many visitors use this tactic to stretch their vacation Euro a little farther.

Oh dear, ScoopKW, it appears that we have still not met in appreciation of the underlying causes of the conflict regarding 'tipping' in North America from the perspective of the vast majority of visitors to your shores. Even though a previous post of yours appeared to highlight that the problem was that Euro visitors were reluctant to understand that the problem lay in a medieval 'American' law permitting the payment of starvation wages to loyal staff, this most recent missive of yours reverts back to your previous position of placing the blame, not on a non-appreciation of this barbaric salary system, but instead on the tight-fistedness of Europeans (and presumably also Australians, Latin Americans, Japanese, South Africans, New Zealanders, Indians, etc).

I think that we should agree to disagree. You and I have totally different views as to what 'tipping' is. You continuously revert back to the need to include in 'tipping' a recognition of the underpaid nature of the US service-sector workers and that it is not an unawareness of this that leads to Europeans 'under-tipping', but that the reason is the Scrooge-like nature of these visitors to your country.

I in turn find that to be an unacceptable shifting of blame. Instead I intransigently continue to demand that a 'tip' is an appreciation for the quality of service and experience, and that salary issues are none of my business. You may continue to blame Europeans for their reluctance to contribute to restaurant/cruise workers' salaries, but we insist on blaming your tourist-industry lobbyists in the USA and their ability to get the great State to accept what is clearly an antiquated system. I do not contribute to the salary of the mechanic who services my car, to the teacher of my grandson, nor to the nurse who gives me post-operative treatment after a triple by-pass, by 'tipping' them. So why should I do so specifically for a waiter in the US because you chose to accept your country's deviation from modern first-world salary norms?

Don't continue to beat the "tight-fisted" drum. It is the barbaric salary system in restaurants in the US that needs to be subject to the utmost scrutiny from you and your political representative, not any assumed tight-fistedness.

Edited by Pedroinspain, 14 November 2011 - 04:03 PM.

[pastrygirl]

What I'm trying to say is this: There is a social custom in N.America where a restaurant patron is expected to tip the waiter a percentage of the bill. This is enforced by media, movies, TV. etc. What is also enforced by the media is that the guest--after tipping the waiter--instructs the waiter to pass along a verbal compliment to "the boys in the back", dab his lips on a napkin, and walk out.

Or send the kitchen a six pack: http://blogs.westwor...the_kitchen.php http://chowhound.cho...m/topics/815843

Because servers work for tips, and apparently cooks work for beer. Cooks don't have mortgages or school loans or spouses and kids to take care of such that extra cash might come in handy?

[Edward J]

No, no, no-no-no, NO!

Don't get me wrong, I like beer, I like to have a drink after work, but not during work, and not after work in the kitchen I'm cleaning up.

I've filed one too many WCB (worker's comp board) report about someone who french fried their feet while cleaning out the fryer, or slipped and burned their forearm while cleaning the grill. I don't need--nor does any employer need-- a Gov't worker "deducing" or assuming alcohol was a factor in a work place accident. Nor do I need the police or a lawyer "deducing" that an employee had consumed alcohol at the workplace before getting into his/her car and driving off.

[Edward J]

Even though a previous post of yours appeared to highlight that the problem was that Euro visitors were reluctant to understand that the problem lay in a medieval 'American' law permitting the payment of starvation wages to loyal staff, this most recent missive of yours reverts back to your previous position of placing the blame, not on a non-appreciation of this barbaric salary system, but instead on the tight-fistedness of Europeans (and presumably also Australians, Latin Americans, Japanese, South Africans, New Zealanders, Indians, etc).

Don't forget the Canadians, one too many jokes about canoes and tipping in this thread.

[KatieLoeb]

So are we all onboard that the anomalously high % involved in 'tipping' in the USA is mostly a salary supplement to compensate for an archaic law and that hidden in there somewhere is also a non-transparent 'thank-you' for appreciated service? In other words can we agree that an ethical person should tip a minimum of (?) 15% just so that the waiting staff can keep the wolf from the door, irrespective of the quality of the food, service, cleanliness, etc. And that then (say) there is 5% for a nice smile, good recommendations, quality dining and attentive service?

That is quite a complex story to get across, given (from the content of this thread) that many Americans don't even understand it properly and still believe that a 20% tip if for good service alone.

I'm not convinced ignorance is the only reason for non-tipping and under tipping. I've simply seen too many instances where "stingy, parsimonious, niggardly, miserly, and just plain mean" are better descriptors. Especially when they call for the manager to have the tip removed from the bill, and then leave the restaurant laughing about it. This happens far too often to be chalked up to simple ignorance of our customs.

And there's still that German guidebook I read -- I have a feeling many visitors use this tactic to stretch their vacation Euro a little farther.

Oh dear, ScoopKW, it appears that we have still not met in appreciation of the underlying causes of the conflict regarding 'tipping' in North America from the perspective of the vast majority of visitors to your shores. Even though a previous post of yours appeared to highlight that the problem was that Euro visitors were reluctant to understand that the problem lay in a medieval 'American' law permitting the payment of starvation wages to loyal staff, this most recent missive of yours reverts back to your previous position of placing the blame, not on a non-appreciation of this barbaric salary system, but instead on the tight-fistedness of Europeans (and presumably also Australians, Latin Americans, Japanese, South Africans, New Zealanders, Indians, etc).

I think that we should agree to disagree. You and I have totally different views as to what 'tipping' is. You continuously revert back to the need to include in 'tipping' a recognition of the underpaid nature of the US service-sector workers and that it is not an unawareness of this that leads to Europeans 'under-tipping', but that the reason is the Scrooge-like nature of these visitors to your country.

I in turn find that to be an unacceptable shifting of blame. Instead I intransigently continue to demand that a 'tip' is an appreciation for the quality of service and experience, and that salary issues are none of my business. You may continue to blame Europeans for their reluctance to contribute to restaurant/cruise workers' salaries, but we insist on blaming your tourist-industry lobbyists in the USA and their ability to get the great State to accept what is clearly an antiquated system. I do not contribute to the salary of the mechanic who services my car, to the teacher of my grandson, nor to the nurse who gives me post-operative treatment after a triple by-pass, by 'tipping' them. So why should I do so specifically for a waiter in the US because you chose to accept your country's deviation from modern first-world salary norms?

Don't continue to beat the "tight-fisted" drum. It is the barbaric salary system in restaurants in the US that needs to be subject to the utmost scrutiny from you and your political representative, not any assumed tight-fistedness.

So as if to prove my point, you're basically saying what we service industry folk have been saying all along. As a foreigner, you don't "believe" in tipping the percentage that is customary here due to the way the system is set up and therefore won't do it, even though the issue has been clearly explained to you in this thread. Yes the system is barbaric. Yes the wages are substandard. If you have a problem with it then yell at the restaurant owner but don't waste a seat that someone who understands the implied contract could be taking up and tipping appropriately so I can keep a roof over my head. Jeez...

I revert back to my earlier analogy. There are lots of things that are "customary", like not defecating in public. You can flout the local customs for whatever reason you like but will be thought an ass for doing so...I'm not calling you a tightwad, I'm just telling you you're misdirecting your anger in a way that is financially punitive for no good reason other than to stand on a lofty principle.

[Edward J]

So as if to prove my point, you're basically saying what we service industry folk have been saying all along.

To whom have you been saying this to?

Why has this issue never been addressed or even acknowledged?

Why does the media not acknowledge this? Or are they only interested in Iron Chef?

Why do so many States still thumb their noses at minium wages with the tiping wage?

Why do the hospitality unions not acknowledge this?

Why do the hospitality unions not fight tipping wages in State Courts? You do acknowledge that hospitality unions exist to garnishee salaries, but what have they acomplished otherwise?

Can anyone answer these questions?

[KatieLoeb]

Read back through the thread. Unions don't exist everywhere, and the masses making the low wages have a lot less political power than organized business owners/restaurateurs who are providing jobs and lining their local, state and federal coffers with taxes. That's why.

[Edward J]

I have a real problem with that statement. You have a minimum wage and the various States are thumbing their nose at it. Was there ever any opposition when "tipping wages" were introduced?

Could it be, perhaps, that everyone (waiters, owners, Restaurant assc'ns, and politicians) are comfortable with this current system of dinging the diner for 25% of the entire dining experience? Either way, the customer pays, right?

Could it be, perhaps that there might be a reason why there are no standards/benchmarks in place for restaurant owners, for waiters, for cooks, for bakers or butchers? No standards for culinary schools to base their curricula on? No standards for employers to base a pay scale on?

One of these days the elephant in the room is going to let off a jungle-fart.

[ScoopKW]

Oh dear, ScoopKW, it appears that we have still not met in appreciation of the underlying causes of the conflict regarding 'tipping' in North America from the perspective of the vast majority of visitors to your shores. Even though a previous post of yours appeared to highlight that the problem was that Euro visitors were reluctant to understand that the problem lay in a medieval 'American' law permitting the payment of starvation wages to loyal staff, this most recent missive of yours reverts back to your previous position of placing the blame, not on a non-appreciation of this barbaric salary system, but instead on the tight-fistedness of Europeans (and presumably also Australians, Latin Americans, Japanese, South Africans, New Zealanders, Indians, etc).

I think that we should agree to disagree. You and I have totally different views as to what 'tipping' is. You continuously revert back to the need to include in 'tipping' a recognition of the underpaid nature of the US service-sector workers and that it is not an unawareness of this that leads to Europeans 'under-tipping', but that the reason is the Scrooge-like nature of these visitors to your country.

I in turn find that to be an unacceptable shifting of blame. Instead I intransigently continue to demand that a 'tip' is an appreciation for the quality of service and experience, and that salary issues are none of my business. You may continue to blame Europeans for their reluctance to contribute to restaurant/cruise workers' salaries, but we insist on blaming your tourist-industry lobbyists in the USA and their ability to get the great State to accept what is clearly an antiquated system. I do not contribute to the salary of the mechanic who services my car, to the teacher of my grandson, nor to the nurse who gives me post-operative treatment after a triple by-pass, by 'tipping' them. So why should I do so specifically for a waiter in the US because you chose to accept your country's deviation from modern first-world salary norms?

Don't continue to beat the "tight-fisted" drum. It is the barbaric salary system in restaurants in the US that needs to be subject to the utmost scrutiny from you and your political representative, not any assumed tight-fistedness.

So let me distill your argument down to two sentences:

1) You are vehemently against restaurant owners exploiting their workers with a non-living wage, forcing them to rely on tips to earn a reasonable living.

2) To show your distaste with the system, you make these same exploited people work hard to serve you food and drinks, and then refuse to tip them on moral grounds, thus exploiting them further.

Got it.

[ScoopKW]

To whom have you been saying this to?

Everybody who will listen. Unfortunately, Europeans, Canadians, Australians and most everyone else refuse to listen. REFUSE.

Why has this issue never been addressed or even acknowledged?

It has been addressed several times. And our courts have ALWAYS sided with the restaurant owners.

Why does the media not acknowledge this? Or are they only interested in Iron Chef?

Because the vast majority of Americans understand that they should mentally add 15-20% as a tip, because they know the server makes squat for an hourly wage. It's only the foreign visitors who seem to be willfully ignorant about this.

Why do so many States still thumb their noses at minium wages with the tiping wage?

They are not thumbing their noses at minimum wage laws. The laws make a specific exception for tipped employees. And it is spelled out on the employment law poster that every place of business in the United States slaps on a hallway somewhere.

Why do the hospitality unions not acknowledge this?

They DO acknowledge this. But they cannot do anything about it, because it is the law of the land.

Why do the hospitality unions not fight tipping wages in State Courts? You do acknowledge that hospitality unions exist to garnishee salaries, but what have they acomplished otherwise?

Because these issues have already been fought, and lost, at the appellate level. States have the right to set their wage laws as they see fit. Most states make a minimum wage exception for tipped employees, trainees, apprentices, and a few others.

Can anyone answer these questions?

We try and try and try. But you refuse to listen.


Look, if you don't like the system, vote with your wallet and DON'T VISIT THE UNITED STATES. Show your disapproval for our medieval wage laws by spending your vacation dollar elsewhere. But don't add insult to injury by stiffing a tipped employee under some pretense of "high moral expectations."

All you're doing is driving up how much we have to tip to make up for your miserly ways. Used to be 10% was fine. Then 15%. Now it's 20%. And in some metro areas, 25% is the norm. Who's paying that? We are. Who isn't? Your countrymen.

[Edward J]

I see. Laws can not be changed. Unions can not impliment a standard or benchmark for their members and for their trade. Unions keep on garnisheeing wages and it is unclear what they do with that money.

The whole thing is kind of like the metric system. Every other country in the world (except I think, N. Korea) uses it. The U.S does not. Hey, it's your system, enjoy.

But please don't try to find fault with vistors to your country, what comes around goes around. There are many commedians outside of the US and one very particular one by the name of Rick Mercer who has made his name, his TV show, and his fortune by uh,.."commenting" on non-Canadians.

[ScoopKW]

I see. Laws can not be changed. Unions can not impliment a standard or benchmark for their members and for their trade. Unions keep on garnisheeing wages and it is unclear what they do with that money.

The whole thing is kind of like the metric system. Every other country in the world (except I think, N. Korea) uses it. The U.S does not. Hey, it's your system, enjoy.

But please don't try to find fault with vistors to your country, what comes around goes around. There are many commedians outside of the US and one very particular one by the name of Rick Mercer who has made his name, his TV show, and his fortune by uh,.."commenting" on non-Canadians.

1) It's "garnish" and "garnishment." I don't think "garnisheeing" is a word, even in Canada. Garnishment is what the government does to those who fail to pay their taxes. Unions charge dues. They do not garnish wages, although dues usually come right out of one's paycheck. Don't like it? Don't work for a union shop. Personally, I'm happy with my union. I make far more in wages than the cooks at non-union casinos. So it's $500 per year well spent.

2) And I don't find fault with visitors. I very much enjoy showing them our country. But I am very much disappointed that they absolutely refuse to get with the program in regards to tipping American service workers. I follow your customs when visiting your country. Why don't you follow mine? It's a simple quid pro quo issue. You may not like our wage laws, and I don't blame you. But don't punish those who work for less than minimum wage by exploiting them in the name of "moral obligation to combat an unfair system."

[Edward J]

No, "garnishee" is a real word, a verb, meaning "to serve a person with a garnishement".

Only two organizations can garnishee a paycheck, the Gov't, taking their taxes, and Unions, taking their fees. Visa/Amex can't, your bank can't, the power company or internet provider can't, your landlord can't. This is something the Unions fought long and hard for, laws were changed so that they could get their money. And they do, they get their share before you even get your pay check.

Quite an acomplishment, don't you think?

The newest thing now is for Hotels and other large employers to offer new staff a choice to be part of the Union or not, but irregardless of what the choice is, their paycheck will get garnisheed the Union dues.

But the hospitality industry is one of the very few industries that doesn't have standards or benchmarks in place for their respective trades. With most of the other trades it is the Unions who establish benchmarks, set payscales according to the benchmarks, get the respective trade schools to design their curriculum to their benchmarks, and get municipalities to use their benchmarks i.e: Electrical code, plumbing code, etc.

And in California there's a 40 million dollar class action against a chain of 16 culinary schools. Ex-students can't get jobs, employers won't recognize the diplomas, or if they do, pay bare minimm wages. No standards.

But I digress, and I'd be a fool to pin any hopes on the Hospitality Unions to do anything about the current situation. They've had a loooong time to something,-- well anything, and the best they can come up with is tipping wages.

Anyhow, we're on page 7 of a thread started by someone who felt he was entitled NOT to tip anything, on account of being seated next to a noisy airconditioner.'

[SusieQ]

No, "garnishee" is a real word, a verb, meaning "to serve a person with a garnishement".

Only two organizations can garnishee a paycheck, the Gov't, taking their taxes, and Unions, taking their fees. Visa/Amex can't, your bank can't, the power company or internet provider can't, your landlord can't. This is something the Unions fought long and hard for, laws were changed so that they could get their money. And they do, they get their share before you even get your pay check.

Quite an acomplishment, don't you think?

You are correct that "garnishee" is a real word, a verb, but it does NOT mean the same thing as when a union (or anybody else) deducts money from a wage -- in the U.S., at least.

Here it means you have a DEBT, and someone or some entity has gone to court and gotten a legal order of "garnishment" (no 2nd "e") for your wages to repay that debt. For example, the IRS (federal taxing authority) can garnishee your wages for unpaid taxes. States can garnishee your wages for unpaid child support if the custodial parent is on state assistance. In any case, first there must be a debt.

Union dues DO NOT COUNT as a debt. Union dues (just like anything else deducted from your paycheck) do not constitute a garnishment.

Oh, and in the U.S., you can use either "garnish" or "garnishee" as a verb in this context.

SusieQ -- copy editor

P.S. Back to the tipping topic, all you really need to know is that if you come to this country and eat out, please tip. It's our custom! Thank you.

[pastrygirl]

Edward J, I'm curious to know how much of the US food service workforce is in a union or has the option to join one. In my career I only encountered a union in the one large hotel I worked at briefly, a Fairmont hotel. My other jobs have been for independent restaurants. While there may have been times when employees joked about needing to unionize, it never really seemed like an option. Do chain restaurants have unions, or mostly just hotels? Any idea? From my experience, unions seem the exception rather than the rule, but that's just me. What is the union/non percentage in Canada?

[heidih]

I just googled around because I was pretty sure and wanted some confirmation. I have been shaking my head at the super low wage rates quoted and the able to pay less than minimum wage. In California the minimum wage laws (as far as I can tell via internet research) apply to the servers and the tips are on top of that. I am not saying that minimum wage is a wage one can support oneself or a family on, but for purposes of discussion it is higher than a couple bucks. I have only once tipped the bare minimum when the service was so so under the par for the place. Luckily I have never encountered a situation that was so egregious that I would want to not tip or alternatively walk out without finishing eating or paying.

[Edward J]

P.S. Back to the tipping topic, all you really need to know is that if you come to this country and eat out, please tip. It's our custom! Thank you.

Ah Custom, that's the word I was looking for.

One of my favorite books in the "throne room" is a reprint of a 1904 catalouge, "Hotel and saloon supplies". Among other things, it has an enormous choice of spittoons and cuspidors, from plain tin to silver plated with ornate handles and removable liners. Given the plethora of choices of such devices, I am forced to assume that it was socially acceptable, or a "custom" to use such devices in public, at least until the 1940's.

Then again not so long ago, it was socially acceptable not only in the US, but in Europe as well to ban women from voting.

What I'm trying to say, is that the custom of giving one person 20%-25% of the entire dining experience in lieu of a salary--or partly compensating his/her salary, is a custom whose time has come to change. Not only do those visiting the US find this custom unfair, so do many of the other employees in the industry.


Of course, I can never now look at a sliver plated punchbowl without really wondering.........



Pastry girl, It's only the Hotels who are unionized--but hang on, many of the "institutions"--hospitals, assisted living homes, schools and some corporate caterers (Office cafeterias etc) are. It is quite an enormous piece of the hospitality industry. And while we can quibble about the word "garnishee" the fact remains that employee's paycheck has Union dues removed long before the employee receives it. This is quite a sum of money, and while in my 30-odd year career in the hospitality industry I have never seen an audited financial statement from the Unions (which they are required to provide to their members by Canadian law). I have never seen any attempt by anyone other than Federal and Provincial Gov'ts to establish a series of benchmarks or standards for the respective trades (ie Cook 1, 2, and Red Seal cook 3;, with Baker 1,2, and 3 coming on line in B.C. and Alta. probably in 2013

[JC]

I'm from outside the US, but have visited twice as a tourist. Regarding this issue of tipping, the custom in restaurants is well known. What I'd like to know is tipping in other situations.

For example: once I took a cab to Boston Airport. After paying the meter fare, I was about to walk into the airport when the cabbie indicated that he should get a tip. I was quite surprised. Since I was rushing and didn't want to get into an argument about it I gave him a tip. But it did leave me an impression that "geez, all service providers in US expect to be tipped". Is this the situation?

[JC]

I don't see how foreign visitors who think it is always 100% permissible to not tip isn't relevant to the discussion.

EDIT -- I mean, that's the topic title, after all. Maybe this thread will convince just ONE visitor that we're not trying to pull the wool over their eyes. That our servers really DO make $2.33 an hour. And they need to be tipped to make a living. Most of us DON'T like that system. But that's how it is. Kind of like our screwed up healthcare and tax systems.

As a visitor, I do understand the need to tip in USA and I do leave a tip.

For me the issue is the amount of the tip. My idea of a tip is based on service level. More exceptional service deserves higher tips. Then comes what is the baseline? Over here, 10% covers most situations (in fact a standard service charge is levied). I remember a situation where our group left a tip of about 10-12% in a restaurant in New York (this was maybe 10 years back). The service was very average. The waiter was not happy and actually demanded that we increase the tip to 15-20%. I was quite taken aback. First it seemed to be very bad form to make a demand like that, and secondly we didn't feel his service deserved it. Anyway, we walked off with the waiter staring at us and mouthing unpleasant things.

All you're doing is driving up how much we have to tip to make up for your miserly ways. Used to be 10% was fine. Then 15%. Now it's 20%. And in some metro areas, 25% is the norm. Who's paying that? We are. Who isn't? Your countrymen.

Interesting to see the progressive increase in the expected tip %. From the tone of your writing you're putting the blame for the increase solely on non-tipping tourists. Seriously, I doubt if the non-tipping tourists make such a big dent in tips as to justify your claim. I'd say that domestic factors account for it more.

Edited by JC, 16 November 2011 - 09:21 PM.

[ScoopKW]

Interesting to see the progressive increase in the expected tip %. From the tone of your writing you're putting the blame for the increase solely on non-tipping tourists. Seriously, I doubt if the non-tipping tourists make such a big dent in tips as to justify your claim. I'd say that domestic factors account for it more.

Of course. The cost of living has skyrocketed, but the servers hourly wage has hovered around $2.30 for as long as I've been in the business. My first gig was at a Moroccan restaurant (ersatz sommelier), and we drew no pay at all. It was tips or nothing. Not at all legal. But we all did OK, until the restaurant folded for playing fast and loose with the rules. I've got roughly 15 years in, and it's still $2.30. How the hell is ANYONE supposed to live on that?

But the fact that busloads of foreign tourists pull up to the tourist-town restaurants that I've worked at, leaving diddly-squat doesn't help either. Someone has to make up the difference. And it's sure as hell not Europeans and Canadians. (Except for the 15% or so who tip well.)

Edited by ScoopKW, 16 November 2011 - 10:27 PM.

[heidih]

Of course. The cost of living has skyrocketed, but the servers hourly wage has hovered around $2.30 for as long as I've been in the business. My first gig was at a Moroccan restaurant (ersatz sommelier), and we drew no pay at all. It was tips or nothing. Not at all legal. But we all did OK, until the restaurant folded for playing fast and loose with the rules. I've got roughly 15 years in, and it's still $2.30. How the hell is ANYONE supposed to live on that?

SO you are saying that it was not legal what the owner did? How is that the customer's issue? As to $2.30/hr as I noted earlier - that is not the case in all states. In California it is minimum wage plus tips as I understand - so a blanket statement about the US is not valid.

[Edward J]

Scoop,if it's "busloads" of tourists, then there's a tour operator somewhere that needs a good talking to. Sometimes it's rooms division that "forgets" to negoatiate group tips for bus tours.
D.A.M.H.I.K.T.......

[ScoopKW]

SO you are saying that it was not legal what the owner did? How is that the customer's issue? As to $2.30/hr as I noted earlier - that is not the case in all states. In California it is minimum wage plus tips as I understand - so a blanket statement about the US is not valid.

OK, How about "in every state I've lived in." California notwithstanding, servers make squat for an hourly wage. And in California, the cost of living is usually so high that the minimum wage they're making isn't all that useful. I like to see people succeed. Subsistence living is not much of a life.

Scoop,if it's "busloads" of tourists, then there's a tour operator somewhere that needs a good talking to. Sometimes it's rooms division that "forgets" to negoatiate group tips for bus tours.
D.A.M.H.I.K.T.......

We try to tell them. They're willfully ignorant, and most don't care. They have the "I've got mine, Jack," mentality. Why should they care whether they make a restaurant full of servers and bartenders hustle for $2.30 an hour and no tips?

Justify it however you want. Servers do NOT want to see a busload of Canadians, Europeans, Asians or Australians pull in at the restaurant where they work. They're going to work hard and make next to nothing. But at least you're secure in the knowledge that you're not supporting an unjust wage system. So it's all good, right?

[Baron d'Apcher]

Hotel restaurant salaries are paid in part by the money generated from the hotel and it’s guests. Independent restaurants outside of hotels in the US that are worthy of a tipping debate rarely have unions. If union cooks in high-end restaurants were paid for their full hours, the resulting cost of the food would be inaccessible, prohibitive and a liability. Working in hotels, catering, hospitals is very different than working in smaller independent restaurants for reasons that “lifers” can calculate.

After reading the RDA of EdwardJ’s observations of the obvious and hopeless rhetoric from across the border, he should consider taking a couple thousand steps back to see the “capitalism” banner and understand that such a tipping model rewards proficient servers better than others and provides incentive. Until there are career servers in the US (theory X) -like in France (theory Y), where the noble standard of premium service and quality is second nature rather than the carrot and stick motivation in the land of plenty- the system will always demand financial rewards to inspire a proper work ethic. It is the product of greed, selfishness and the inherent American capitalist reflex to do better than thy neighbor, not share toys and look out for one’s self: consistent with the frigid-footed hostility towards hospitality tip pools.

As despicable and divisive as the system is, it makes those who benefit wealthier than the rest (promotion as well) while allegedly separating the wheat from the chaff. Waiving the almighty dollar is Uncle Sam’s entitled way of coaxing his notion of quality, which, based upon the original poster’s deliberation of an “expensive" $25 meal is being confused with value. Value is the abusive culture of cheap, obscenely processed foods (at the expense of the consumer’s nutrition, naturally) which has infected our food system and increased the disconnect. Quality is what you get can find in Europe, where there is pride without compromise in the goods that are raised, served and sold in a food culture which is embraced.

Uncle Sam wants to be coddled and massaged. He can be fawned over with the chance of offering money and will punish by withholding it. If servers are to make $10/hr here, that money is going to have to be subsidized by higher prices and those who take the time to tediously qualify tipping on a $20 steak dinner are not likely to happily absorb the increase without a chance to validate value: whether or not they were sufficiently spoiled.

Any dedicated epicurean traveler who dines for the pleasure of dining and researches the tradition of not eating weisswurst after noon or cheese before a meal should not be so abrasive and childish as to choose one dining custom over another for financially fueled criticism of established food industry ideology.

Edited by Baron d'Apcher, 17 November 2011 - 12:42 AM.

[JC]

Of course. The cost of living has skyrocketed, but the servers hourly wage has hovered around $2.30 for as long as I've been in the business. My first gig was at a Moroccan restaurant (ersatz sommelier), and we drew no pay at all. It was tips or nothing. Not at all legal. But we all did OK, until the restaurant folded for playing fast and loose with the rules. I've got roughly 15 years in, and it's still $2.30. How the hell is ANYONE supposed to live on that?

Wow, this shows that the economic rights of waitstaff in the USA have been seriously screwed. I'm surprised that the waitstaff haven't revolted against their employers. Obviously there is something wrong with the system and that has been acknowledged by many posters here. But I'm more intrigued by how long this system has persisted and how it has resisted change. I've always thought of USA as a place where workers are vocal and their rights looked after - doesn't seem to be the case for waitstaff.

Edited by JC, 17 November 2011 - 02:56 AM.

[naguere]

A nice post jrshaul.

It has made me thoughtful.