1821 replies to this topic

[johnder]

So that is why we use vacuum packing. However, I will also admit that once you have a chamber style vacuum packer in your kitchen, you use it for everything - it is very convienient.

This brings up a question, is there any chance on the foreseeable future that we will be able to obtain a decent chamber sealer un the sub 600 range or are they just destined to remain in the $1+ range.

[Tri2Cook]

Actually Chris, I think you probably could just eyeball the carrageenan, the way you might eyeball xantham gum and the like: add a bit, stir, check the texture, add a bit more, check the texture, etc. I don't know that it's being used in any sort of precision chemical reactions, it's being used as a thickener (please correct me if I'm wrong...).

I don't think eyeballing carrageenan would be the way to go. Carrageenans don't behave like starches, modified starches or xanthan in hot liquids. Carrageenans won't gel above a range of temps (which varies based on controllable factors) and while shearing is occuring. If you're adding it to a hot liquid and stirring, it's not going to gel. If you add enough that it's physically getting thicker while hot and under shear, it's taking up a significant amount of available water for hydration and you've added way, way, WAY too much. The general rule of hydrocolloids is to use the minimal amount needed to do the job and carrageenans work in very low concentrations, especially in the presence of calcium. Eyeballing the correct amount to add without using a scale would be tough, eyeballing it based on the consistency of a hot liquid would be, in my opinion, impossible.

[Chris Amirault]

So that is why we use vacuum packing. However, I will also admit that once you have a chamber style vacuum packer in your kitchen, you use it for everything - it is very convienient.

This brings up a question, is there any chance on the foreseeable future that we will be able to obtain a decent chamber sealer un the sub 600 range or are they just destined to remain in the $1+ range.

My question as well -- and I'm seeing them mostly near $2K...

[cbread]

I assume quantities of carrageenan need to be precise.

Can anyone with knowledge of the usage of carrageenan and citrate offer specifics on what proportionate quantities of iota carrageenan and sodium citrate are needed to make a batch of that or a similar mac n' cheese? When the pictures of that Mac n' cheese and the information on it hit these pages, I sourced iota carrageenan and sodium citrate in the hopes that my copy of MC would arrive soon.

Now I find Amazon.ca is looking at a pushed back ship date in early April, and I need to make something like that mac n' cheese.

My (probably lifetime) supply of carrageenan arrived today and citrate will soon follow. What I now lack is knowledge of how to put them to use.

[Chris Hennes]

Carrageenans don't behave like starches, modified starches or xanthan in hot liquids.

What, you mean I should have actually read that chapter instead of just skimming it? Thanks for the clarification, I think that makes sense. I'm looking forward to my hard copy of this thing, I think I'll need to take a week off just for the first go-through!

Tonight I made two things from MC for dinner, a pork tenderloin and asparagus. The pork was done following the time and temp recommendations in the book, cooking at 60°C/140°F for 50 minutes to a core temp of 59°C/138°F, then zapping it with the torch to finish. I had seasoned and vacuum-packed the pork several days ago with salt and herbes de provence: it turned out very, very well indeed, although I was a bit careless with the torch and cooked a bit more of the outer layer than I intended to on one side. I think this temperature recommendation is spot on, this was easily the best pork tenderloin I've ever had in terms of texture and flavor. I'd previously done tenderloins SV at 145°F, but I think 138°F is much better. And using a small temperature increment above final core temp results in considerably shorter cooking time, which is a handy recommendation. The asparagus was cooked with 10% water, 5% olive oil, and 1% salt at 85°C/185°F for fifteen minutes: it was very good as well. This recipe in particular highlighted the value of including the scaling ratios: it eliminates a step (and therefore source of error) from the scaling process, since I did not make the same amount of asparagus as the recipe called for. I've really come to appreciate this, and I hope we see more cookbooks follow MC's lead (lots of baking books already do, of course, but few others).

[Kerry Beal]

So that is why we use vacuum packing. However, I will also admit that once you have a chamber style vacuum packer in your kitchen, you use it for everything - it is very convienient.

This brings up a question, is there any chance on the foreseeable future that we will be able to obtain a decent chamber sealer un the sub 600 range or are they just destined to remain in the $1+ range.

My question as well -- and I'm seeing them mostly near $2K...

Hate to make all you guys jealous - but I picked up a chamber vacuum last week off Kijiji for a very good price. Downside - got it home (that was not an easy process) and realized it was 220V - so just waiting for hubby to get that hooked up. Hope hell doesn't freeze over first!

Here is the unit

[Kerry Beal]

Comments on the three recipes from MC.

The pickles were very tasty, and I'll be using that brine and method again. I'm not sure what I gain from sealing the cukes and brine in a vacuum bag, however, so I may go back to the jar-with-glass-thing-that-keeps-the-pickles-under-brine. Maybe when I get a chamber vacuum I'll give it a go again.

The chicken was pretty amazing. While preparing the brine, I was surprised at the lack of any flavorings save booze and salt, but the method puts a piece of extremely juicy flesh with a portion of very crispy skin in each bite -- and no bone to avoid. The buttermilk powder is a real stroke, adding a tang to the coating that I can't imagine getting otherwise. In addition, cranking the oil up to 425F, though a bit scary for someone who's stuck around 375F most of the time, was absolutely the right thing to do: 4 minutes with one flip in the middle and that skin was perfect.

I do think that I would squeeze out the accumulated liquid in the skin-wrapped thigh more carefully before frying; some released over the oil creating a small explosion. Given the importance of the meat quality, I'd also use the best chicken I could find. (These were Whole Foods generic, not free-range, and you could tell.)

As for the mac & cheese: it was both the best and the easiest I've ever made. No gloppy sauce, remarkably intense cheese flavor (you get the "flavor release" concept when you eat it), and the pasta absorbs it thoroughly. There was a moment when the mac & cheese was boiling away while I got distracted, and I rushed over to it thinking, "It must have broken." Nope. It's hard to imagine ever making it any differently again, though I think I'd swap out some of the gouda and add more cheddar out of preference.

In short, three for three.

Chris - was the Frankenchicken cooked sous vide before frying?

[runwestierun]

Chris - was the Frankenchicken cooked sous vide before frying?

That's it! Tomorrow's dinner is Frankenchicken and Molecular Mac-n-Cheese!

[KennethT]

Chris - everything looked great! Does the book go into the reasons behind the vodka brine? What's the purpose of it?

[Chris Amirault]

Chris - was the Frankenchicken cooked sous vide before frying?

Yep: post-brine (see below), you repackage and SV the meat at 64C/147F for 2h.

Chris - everything looked great! Does the book go into the reasons behind the vodka brine? What's the purpose of it?

The book doesn't talk about the vodka brine in particular (that I can find), but earlier in the frying section it discusses the effects of alcohol in batters. Reading that, I surmise that, because the alcohol in the brine evaporates at a lower temperature than water, you both dry out the surface of the meat more effectively and keep the interior from overcooking.

[LoftyNotions]

The lowest price I've seen on a vacuum chamber sealer was for the ARY VP-210. Costco carries them for about $900.00. This machine evacuates the chamber for a fixed time, not to a specific vacuum level. The pump mechanism is a self-lubricated rocker pump which probably isn't quite as good as a rotary oil pump. Reviews for home or light commercial use have been pretty good though.

Units like the Minipack-torre MVS31 that pull a specific vacuum and have rotary oil vacuum pumps are more in the $2,000 range.

[Wayt Gibbs]

Modernist Cuisine/sous vide/butchering. Last night I put a boneless rib eye roast into my sous vide. As I was preparing the roast, again I wondered how much more a roast or a steak or say a rack of lamb ribs need to be butchered. Obviously, silver skin needs removal. My instinct is to shave off the larger caps of fat one finds based upon my guess that at the lower temperatures of doneness, the fat does not sufficiently melt. If I were conventionally roasting, the melting of the fat would take place and further act as a basting or at least render more. Should we cut off the extra fat, but leave the excess in the bags or does this not aid much in flavor development? My practice is to season, sous vide and then sear, while I have seen opinion that pre-searing may be better.

Which also brings up the second question of how 'hot' meat done sous vide is at the table, versus the still sizzling one might find from a steak just off the grill. To compensate and give the expected warmness someone expects when dinner is served, do you heat the plates or how exactly do you keep the food warm?

Modernist Cuisine research chef Grant Crilly answers:

There are several thing to consider when cooking a steak (rib steak) sous vide.

One is the thickness of the meat. If it is much thicker than an inch or two, I would not preseason it. In the amount of time that it takes to reach your core temp, the salt will toughen the surface of the meat and remove lots of moisture.

A second consideration is which cut/rib along the rib primal does your steak come from?

Steaks cut toward the front of the animal contain a larger portion of the tender muscle known as the “deckle” or “cap.” In such cases, you might want to separate the muscles and cook them at different temperatures (a procedure we describe in the book). Toward the rear of the primal, the eye increases in size and starts to become the New York. You can cook a steak of that kind in one piece with no problems.

You have several approaches to remedy the fat problem. You can cook the meat at a slightly hotter temperature, such as 58 °C / 136 °F, for a touch longer. Doing this helps to soften the fat in a rib eye quite a bit. The average rib steak is a touch more tender at this temperature anyways. I usually use this approach at home.
Alternatively, you can remove the fat completely. Or you can sear the fat, and place it back into the bag. Yet another option is to pierce the fat with a pin many times to help rupture the cell walls that contain it. In the book, you'll find an illustrated step-by-step procedure for preparing duck that shows how to do this with a dog brush. (Be sure to use a new one!)

I myself always prefer to sear after the cooking, for a couple of reasons.

First, you lose your crust if you presear; it sort of steeps in the bag like tea. The color in your sear will pale and leach out, making for a pretty sad-looking piece of meat. If you want the flavor, slice off a little bit, and sear those pieces, then place them in the bag.

Second, searing just before serving brings the surface temp up considerably. You can fry the steak, place it in a very hot convection oven, or sear traditionally in a very hot pan. Always take care to sear in a hotter-than-normal method, however, so that searing occurs as fast as possible. This helps get it to the table at a good eating temp.

As for warming the plates, that is always a nice thing when serving hot food.

One last thing to keep in mind with a cut like the New York and rib steak: the muscle fibers run parallel to the thickness of the steak you are cooking. Yet most people still cut along the fibers on the plate at the table. If you as the cook simply precut the steak at a 45° angle, you will effectively tenderize the steak a great deal. A cheaper steak prepared this way will often enough seem more tender that a more expensive steak prepared and cut in a typical way. For a large roast, cutting very thin slices achieves similar results.

You'll find many more tips and techniques like this in the book.

[ermintrude]

I had a go at the mac and cheese, all a bit haphazard but was 700g of cheese (Gruyère 300g, Cheddar 300g, 100g Mahon).
Took 400ml of Theakstons Old Peculiar into thermomix set to varomma temp (i.e >100C) and brought to a boil to get rid of the alcohol. Then at about speed 8 added 3 teaspoons of sodium citrate and 4g of Kappa turned speed down and added the cheese bit by bit, turning up the speed to chop and using a spatula to wipe the sides down. Added salt, minced garlic, pepper then 1/2 thought sod cool and grate and used over mac straight away. The rest put into a dish to cool.

Was probably the most cheesy version I had ever tasted, but slightly off taste wise perhaps less beer and sodium citrate, perfectly edible but could do better (Amazon has April 4th for me).

The 1/2 I left to cool, had an off colour (the beer) and the texture was almost processed cheese but a bit less rubbery however it melts like a dream and will not split, so ate that today stirred into more pasta. Even a nuke in the microwave I could not make it split.

Just need the precise measurements I guess to get it perfect.

[Todd in Chicago]

Hi Chris....

Sounds awesome! I can't wait! My preorder was in on July 17th, so I'm wondering where that ends up in the "queue".

The best mac and cheese I've had was one at a no longer open restaurant in Chicago called "Rushmore" in which they made it with smoked gouda. I would LOVE to try this recipe with smoked gouda! CANNOT WAIT!!

Todd in Chicago

[Chris Amirault]

I had a go at the mac and cheese, all a bit haphazard but was 700g of cheese (Gruyère 300g, Cheddar 300g, 100g Mahon).
Took 400ml of Theakstons Old Peculiar into thermomix set to varomma temp (i.e >100C) and brought to a boil to get rid of the alcohol. Then at about speed 8 added 3 teaspoons of sodium citrate and 4g of Kappa turned speed down and added the cheese bit by bit, turning up the speed to chop and using a spatula to wipe the sides down.

Why the kappa carrageenan? I don't have the book handy, but I'm pretty sure the iota and kappa are very different.

[Guy MovingOn]

Can the macaroni and cheese be made with dried macaroni?
My girlfriend has a packet and keeps pestering me to cook it for her somehow... then I saw all these posts about the modernist mac and cheese and knew this would be the perfect way.

I'm pretty sure I have the relevant hydrocolloids to make it.

Could somebody post the amounts of cheeses/hydrocolloids and some simple instructions on how to make it?

It would seriously make my life a lot better if I could cook this for her!

Thanks!

[nickrey]

I'm in the process of making up the Pastrami that Nathan mentioned in an earlier post.

Instead of the recommended Wagyu beef cheeks, I'm using the Australian cut of topside (back part of round in US cuts). It's just gone into the brine/cure. Will sit there for 7 days, then be smoked, then cooked sous vide.

I'm not really worried about using a substitute meat as the book explicitly covers how to deal with different types of meat.

Will report back at the next stage.

[Tri2Cook]

I had a go at the mac and cheese, all a bit haphazard but was 700g of cheese (Gruyère 300g, Cheddar 300g, 100g Mahon).
Took 400ml of Theakstons Old Peculiar into thermomix set to varomma temp (i.e >100C) and brought to a boil to get rid of the alcohol. Then at about speed 8 added 3 teaspoons of sodium citrate and 4g of Kappa turned speed down and added the cheese bit by bit, turning up the speed to chop and using a spatula to wipe the sides down.

Why the kappa carrageenan? I don't have the book handy, but I'm pretty sure the iota and kappa are very different.

They are different. Kappa gels are much more brittle. Iota gels are elastic and much less prone to syneresis. The iota is much more freeze/thaw stable as well... but that's not really an issue in this case. I did the Heston Blumenthal version of processed cheese from his second In Search of Perfection book a few years ago. It didn't involve carrageenan, it was just sherry, aromatics, sodium citrate and cheese, but the addition of carrageenan makes sense. I'll have to play around with it.

[ermintrude]

I had a go at the mac and cheese, all a bit haphazard but was 700g of cheese (Gruyère 300g, Cheddar 300g, 100g Mahon).
Took 400ml of Theakstons Old Peculiar into thermomix set to varomma temp (i.e >100C) and brought to a boil to get rid of the alcohol. Then at about speed 8 added 3 teaspoons of sodium citrate and 4g of Kappa turned speed down and added the cheese bit by bit, turning up the speed to chop and using a spatula to wipe the sides down.

Why the kappa carrageenan? I don't have the book handy, but I'm pretty sure the iota and kappa are very different.

I recalled it was carrageenan and took a chance on kappa as I thought that would give me a better set for grating etc, seemed to work well.
I'll try iota next time

[emannths]

I'm in the process of making up the Pastrami that Nathan mentioned in an earlier post.

Instead of the recommended Wagyu beef cheeks, I'm using the Australian cut of topside (back part of round in US cuts). It's just gone into the brine/cure. Will sit there for 7 days, then be smoked, then cooked sous vide. [snip]

Given that Nathan said they use the equilibrium cure method, I'm surprised that 7 days is long enough. For example, these guys found the concentration of salt was not yet at equilibrium after 11 days in one of their experiments. Does MC say that they expect the meat to reach equilibrium by day 7?

[jmolinari]

I'm in the process of making up the Pastrami that Nathan mentioned in an earlier post.

Instead of the recommended Wagyu beef cheeks, I'm using the Australian cut of topside (back part of round in US cuts). It's just gone into the brine/cure. Will sit there for 7 days, then be smoked, then cooked sous vide. [snip]

Given that Nathan said they use the equilibrium cure method, I'm surprised that 7 days is long enough. For example, these guys found the concentration of salt was not yet at equilibrium after 11 days in one of their experiments. Does MC say that they expect the meat to reach equilibrium by day 7?

My thoughts exactly. Which is why i've asked twice about the equilibrium cure that Nathan said they developed. I'm sure my question has just been missed within the slew of posts.

[Chris Hennes]

I no longer have access to the review copy, but aren't those beef cheeks quite small? It's not like you're curing an entire brisket in seven days. Also, does the quantity of fat in the Wagyu alter the speed that the brine penetrates? I didn't get a chance to read that chapter, unfortunately... just have to wait until the real thing arrives.

[rmillman]

If you are ever in the need to quickly degas a liquid such as in making solution for spherification or making clearer ice try using an clean old wine bottle and one of the wine vacuum pump sealers ($10). You can rapidly apply a decent vacuum to a liquid: do this a couple of times and alginate solutions become earier to work with.

[Chris Amirault]

That is so obvious yet so ingenious!

[jmolinari]

I no longer have access to the review copy, but aren't those beef cheeks quite small? It's not like you're curing an entire brisket in seven days. Also, does the quantity of fat in the Wagyu alter the speed that the brine penetrates? I didn't get a chance to read that chapter, unfortunately... just have to wait until the real thing arrives.

I believe fat actually slows brine penetration. The transport mechanism is water, and fat has a lower % of water than muscle tissue does. So, my gut tells me that if anything a wagyu cheek would require more time than a normal beef cheek.

[Kerry Beal]

I had a go at the mac and cheese, all a bit haphazard but was 700g of cheese (Gruyère 300g, Cheddar 300g, 100g Mahon).
Took 400ml of Theakstons Old Peculiar into thermomix set to varomma temp (i.e >100C) and brought to a boil to get rid of the alcohol. Then at about speed 8 added 3 teaspoons of sodium citrate and 4g of Kappa turned speed down and added the cheese bit by bit, turning up the speed to chop and using a spatula to wipe the sides down.

Why the kappa carrageenan? I don't have the book handy, but I'm pretty sure the iota and kappa are very different.

I recalled it was carrageenan and took a chance on kappa as I thought that would give me a better set for grating etc, seemed to work well.
I'll try iota next time

I used the product from Xenex labs - it's a mixture of kappa and iota - worked just fine too.

[Caruso]

This brings up a question, is there any chance on the foreseeable future that we will be able to obtain a decent chamber sealer un the sub 600 range or are they just destined to remain in the $1+ range.

Not quite at the sub $600 range yet, but I just got an email from Sous Vide Supreme announcing their own chamber vacuum sealer for $799

I really want one of these!

[ermintrude]

This brings up a question, is there any chance on the foreseeable future that we will be able to obtain a decent chamber sealer un the sub 600 range or are they just destined to remain in the $1+ range.

Not quite at the sub $600 range yet, but I just got an email from Sous Vide Supreme announcing their own chamber vacuum sealer for $799

I really want one of these!

US only at the moment wonder how that will translate when it get's across the pond ?
At £500 tempting £799 althouugh I'd like it would have to be a no.

[LoftyNotions]

This brings up a question, is there any chance on the foreseeable future that we will be able to obtain a decent chamber sealer un the sub 600 range or are they just destined to remain in the $1+ range.

Not quite at the sub $600 range yet, but I just got an email from Sous Vide Supreme announcing their own chamber vacuum sealer for $799

I really want one of these!

See post #19 in this thread. http://forums.egulle...acuum-purchase/

[nickrey]

I'm in the process of making up the Pastrami that Nathan mentioned in an earlier post.

Instead of the recommended Wagyu beef cheeks, I'm using the Australian cut of topside (back part of round in US cuts). It's just gone into the brine/cure. Will sit there for 7 days, then be smoked, then cooked sous vide. [snip]

Given that Nathan said they use the equilibrium cure method, I'm surprised that 7 days is long enough. For example, these guys found the concentration of salt was not yet at equilibrium after 11 days in one of their experiments. Does MC say that they expect the meat to reach equilibrium by day 7?

I no longer have access to the review copy, but aren't those beef cheeks quite small? It's not like you're curing an entire brisket in seven days. Also, does the quantity of fat in the Wagyu alter the speed that the brine penetrates? I didn't get a chance to read that chapter, unfortunately... just have to wait until the real thing arrives.

I copied the recipe before access stopped.

The wagyu cheeks are brined for 72 hours only and are around 250g each. The recipe is for 1 kg and in the substitution section, they say to brine brisket, fatty end, for 7 days. Took that as around equivalent, especially considering my piece of topside is only 600g. Will let you know results.

I note from your link emannths that the piece of meat they referred to there was 1.2kg, that's twice the size of my piece.