1821 replies to this topic

[basquecook]

Well, I've been cooking steaks for over 30 years, and my guests have been eating a lot of them. We all agreed that it was the best steak they'd ever had, so I'm going with, "Yeah, it was worth it."

Does that mean that a grill is a bad way to cook steak? Not at all -- and the MC book details how to think about that issue. But when it's 10F outside, it'd be hard to beat this method.

I failed to see where you said it was the best steak that you or any of your guests have ever eaten. I wonder how cold smoking and cooking something sous vide could perform such amazing results as I believe the smoke would not penetrate much of the steak at such a low temp. But, all I can do is take your word for it. But cold smoking, lightly heating and finishing on a home kitchen range? are all things to mimick a properly cooked steak over a wood fire.

I just wonder how much people are in love with the process of playing scientist. It seems cool to add a bunch of chemicals to mac and cheese but, I wonder about the actual results.

I have been all around the world and all over this country (as a guest here) and there are very few people who have been able to use this modern cooking with decent results. And the handfull of ones that have, are pretty much world famous because of it.

Edited by basquecook, 21 February 2011 - 11:34 AM.

[Chris Hennes]

Naturally, the only way to convince yourself is to try it: the Mac and Cheese is a good place to start because it is something so familiar. And this mac and cheese isn't just a little bit better, it is head and shoulders superior in all ways I can enumerate. It's also very easy and relatively inexpensive to make: I spent far more on the cheese than on the "chemicals"!

[Chris Amirault]

I failed to see where you said it was the best steak that you or any of your guests have ever eaten. I wonder how cold smoking and cooking something sous vide could perform such amazing results as I believe the smoke would not penetrate much of the steak at such a low temp. But, all I can do is take your word for it. But cold smoking, lightly heating and finishing on a home kitchen range? are all things to mimick a properly cooked steak over a wood fire.

I just wonder how much people are in love with the process of playing scientist. It seems cool to add a bunch of chemicals to mac and cheese but, I wonder about the actual results.

I have been all around the world and all over this country (as a guest here) and there are very few people who have been able to use this modern cooking with decent results. And the handfull of ones that have, are pretty much world famous because of it.

I said it here.

We'll have to agree to disagree. It's certainly my experience -- and that of thousands of others -- that cold smoking, cooking steak SV, retrograde starch techniques for potatoes et al are all pretty straightforward techniques. Most of the things I did aren't even "modernist" per se, and I've no desire to play scientist. I want to make and eat good food.

As for your skepticism about the results, I guess you'll have to try it out to find out for yourself!

Edited by Chris Amirault, 21 February 2011 - 11:49 AM.
Adding clarifying quotation -- CA

[nickrey]

I just wonder how much people are in love with the process of playing scientist. It seems cool to add a bunch of chemicals to mac and cheese but, I wonder about the actual results.

I have been all around the world and all over this country (as a guest here) and there are very few people who have been able to use this modern cooking with decent results. And the handfull of ones that have, are pretty much world famous because of it.

Some of us are scientists as well as avid cooks. One thing about scientists is that they are very cynical of claims that have to be taken on faith. The authors of this book have taken a very rigorous approach to finding out and expaining why things work as they do. They are bringing the cooking processes that have made some people famous within the reach of interested cooks.

As you will know, no amount of philosophical debate can convey the experience of a well executed dish. Unless you try it you will only be limited to phrases such as "I wonder" "I can't see how" and the like, which really are personal statements backed with nothing but restricted exposure.

Sure you may have tasted others using the approach but they, like us all, have been without a definitive reference work until the publication of this book. And in some cases the technique is more important to these people than the outcome. That is definitely not the case with the authors of this book and the outstanding exponents of the technique you referred to above.

There also may have been times where you ate cuisine prepared in a modernist manner and registered that it was very well executed and flavorsome but were unaware of its provenance. The authors would see this as a good thing because the technique has been used to improve the eating experience rather than for it's own sake.

I'd love to continue the discussion but how about we do it after you've tried some of the techniques for yourself? That brings it in to the realm of opinions based on experience rather than theory, which is a much more solid foundation for a dialogue.

Edited by nickrey, 21 February 2011 - 12:57 PM.

[Chris Hennes]

For years professional chefs with solid foundations kept telling us that "searing the meat seals in the juices." The FDA continues to tell us that we should cook poultry to 165°F, and the American Heart Association insists that eating cholesterol will kill you. All respected individuals with tons of experience. But experience is no replacement for knowledge, and that knowledge tends to come from books like this one.

I should add that later this week I will be using Activa RM to glue leeks to a sous vide pork tenderloin. In the name of science.

[Chris Amirault]

Thanks for getting us back to cooking with Modernist Cuisine, Chris. I'm making shrimp & grits but, lacking the liquid nitrogen they use to freeze and shatter corn, I'm sticking to meal that Bob ground in his red mill.

I am following the modernist instructions for the grits in the book, however: "cook over medium heat for about 40 minutes; stir constantly until mixture softens and forms grits."

Got intrigued by the bacon powder recipe in the book, but it seems a bit too refined for this dish so I used the grease to cook the shrimp. Has anyone made bacon powder?

[runwestierun]

Chris, I remember DavetheCook and ScottyBoy mentioning it in the Modernist Ingredient Kit thread. Scotty said he buys the maltodextrine in bulk because it soaks up so much fat. Dave's made the bacon powder recipe twice.

[Chris Amirault]

That's where I've seen it!

[Tri2Cook]

Thanks for getting us back to cooking with Modernist Cuisine, Chris.

Apologies for the drift from topic. I sometimes get defensive when I hear "my way is the best way because I've been doing it longer than you/I went to this school/I've worked here and here" type statements but I'll refrain from jumping in on that one from here on out.

Got intrigued by the bacon powder recipe in the book, but it seems a bit too refined for this dish so I used the grease to cook the shrimp. Has anyone made bacon powder?

I've made bacon powder in the past using Linda's process from the Playing with Fire and Water blog. Her post was actually on chicken powder but I modified it to bacon for the specific use I had in mind. She actually billed hers as as a chicken croquant so it may be quite different from the process you're looking at. Since Modernist Cuisine isn't in the budget at this time, I can't compare the processes.

[Chris Hennes]

I just parcooked a batch of risotto to go along with that pork tenderloin. I'm not sure I can source the Angelica root or bitter orange zest the brine for the pork calls for. Anyone have any thoughts on subs, or just leave them out?

Edited by Chris Hennes, 21 February 2011 - 03:06 PM.
Clarified that the brine was for the pork, not the risotto!

[runwestierun]

OK if by "bitter" he means "Seville" then I would just use half the amount of regular orange zest, because it is more acidic/strongly citrus flavored than Seville orange zest.

[runwestierun]

Chris,
I was wondering--I don't have a preview copy--does it say if the Angelica Root is fresh or dried? Is dried OK?

[mkayahara]

It all looks fun but, it just is funny to me to see people without solid foundation jump to the next level of cooking.

Does that mean you make the cooks under you cook over a wood stove before you let them near the gas burners? Or make all their purees with a food mill before you let them use the blender?

There is some sense to learning foundations of cooking before trying advanced techniques that draw on more basic skills. But sometimes technology takes a quantum leap forward, and the old techniques simply become obsolete - in other words, sometimes, the foundations, the points of reference, change.

[roygon]

I have a question regarding the Risotto parametric table that was just released. For Pressure Cooking, or Boiling for that matter, do you not add oil, onion and then stir in the rice before adding the liquid? It sounds like that is skipped but wondering if it was done to simplify the chart? Also, it says to use water as the liquid for the parcook - is it better / possible to use stock in this step or should it only be done with water?

rg

[Chris Hennes]

Chris,
I was wondering--I don't have a preview copy--does it say if the Angelica Root is fresh or dried? Is dried OK?

It says "Angelica Root, sliced" which I was assuming meant fresh, but I don't know that for certain. It's a bit player in a brine, so it may work fine with dried.

I'm rethinking this plan: I had intended to basically "part out" the pork tenderloin section of the Choucroute Royale recipe, but on reading the whole thing every component sounds fantastic. I'm thinking I might start some sauerkraut tomorrow (takes two weeks to make by the recipe in the book). I started the "Aromatic Alsatian Mustard" today, that takes a week but can be held longer. The other components are quicker, though I'm not going to be able to get my hands on pork cheek either, I'll have to sub in something else. Any suggestions there?

[vice]

I'm not going to be able to get my hands on pork cheek either, I'll have to sub in something else. Any suggestions there?

Belly?

[Chris Hennes]

Belly might work: based on the photo it looks like the pork cheek they mean is just the nugget of meat in the jowl, though, not the whole thing, so I guess I'd have to trim the belly up to get something similar.

[runwestierun]

I'm not going to be able to get my hands on pork cheek either, I'll have to sub in something else. Any suggestions there?

I live in a very remote area of the Pacific Northwest. The closest city with a population of more than 10K ppl is more than 100 miles away. We have 2 grocery stores within 30 miles, Safeway and Fred Meyer's. I was looking for pork belly, there was none to be had, but the guy at the meat counter had some pork cheeks kryovac'ed. I was so surprised. If my regular everyday grocery has it, maybe yours could get it for you in time?

[Dave the Cook]

. . . I'm not going to be able to get my hands on pork cheek either, I'll have to sub in something else. Any suggestions there?

I think if you got some decently sized hocks, you could either trim out the meat and treat the larger pieces like cheek, or adjust the smoking and cooking times to accommodate hocks, then harvest the meat.

Speaking of smoking, the recipe says 7C/45F at 50% relative humidity for 24 hours. Are you going to attempt that, Chris, and if so, how?

[Chris Hennes]

I haven't decided whether to cold smoke or hot smoke: I'd like to go cold, but my rig is no longer set up for it so I'll have to improvise. Might pick up a soldering iron and go that route.

[dcarch]

I read in a number of places about MC's workaround for not having a proper brick oven to cook pizza, consisting of putting a 1/4 inch-thick steel sheet and using it instead of a stone. Two questions about that: any steel will do it? would it work for baking bread?

Although I don't have access to the book anymore, I read that section with interest. Let's see how good my recall is...

The reason that ovens retain heat is because the sides of the oven heat up. The air in the oven is mainly incidental and will heat up fairly rapidly when the door is shut. Hence opening and closing the door causes less damage than most would think (eg. in the questions about basting).

Using a sheet of metal means that you add another source that effectively absorbs and radiates heat, thus making the heat sources in the oven more stable. So in answer to your specific questions: any steel should do as long as it can store and release heat. Secondly, it should be good for bread because of its contribution to the overall heat profile within the oven.


Nick's memory is excellent.

They recommend a piece of steel or aluminum (the latter is much lighter, of course) that is 2 cm -- that is to say, 3/4 in, not 1/4 in -- thick.

A 30" x 30" steel plate would be about 200 lbs.

I don't see how steel plate can be a substitude for brick. They have completely different thermal properties.

dcarch

Edited by dcarch, 21 February 2011 - 07:34 PM.

[jmolinari]

Mac and Cheese (p. 3-387)

No, this isn't some kind of play on words, or a joke-recipe, or some kind of fascinating modernist creation. It's just macaroni and cheese. This recipe is a clear demonstration that while you can use modernist ingredients to create some really crazy stuff, you can also apply them to simply take a classic dish and make it better. And believe me when I say it: this version of mac and cheese is so vastly, clearly superior to anything I've ever had it is mind boggling.

There are two keys to the dish, both related to problems with the original: the first is that when you make a cheese sauce with a bechamel base, you have to use a LOT of bechamel, and there is a limit to how much cheese you can add before it breaks. This winds up diluting the cheese flavor, and is part of the reason I would never consider making a traditional mac and cheese with a really great cheese: its subtlety would simply be lost, and you'd gain nothing over using a simpler cheese. The second key is that not only does bechamel dilute the cheese flavor purely by volume, it also has poor "flavor release" compared to, say, carageenan: the book spends a great deal of time talking about this sort of thing, and it's very helpful for understanding why these techniques work as well as they do.

So, the modernist version of the dish does away with the bechamel base: instead, you make a small amount of a solution of beer, water, sodium citrate (to emulsify the cheese) and carrageenan (the thicken the sauce). You then melt a huge quantity of excellent cheese into it (I used Cabot clothbound cheddar and Roomano Pradera Gouda), in effect making your own processed cheese block. You chill it down until you literally have a block of processed cheese more or less the consistency of Velveeta, and then you shred it. The pasta is cooked in just enough water for it to absorb, and then the shredded cheese product is stirred in. You wind up with a mac and cheese the same texture as if you had used Velveeta: perfectly, flawlessly smooth. Except it tastes incredibly intensely like the best cheeses in the world! Perhaps you have gathered here that I rather liked the stuff. If this is "Modernist" then consider me modernified. Sort of. I did serve it with dry-fried chicken and steamed broccoli...

This looks awesome. I'm wondering if the "processed" cheese can be stored in the fridge for weeks like regular cheese...that way mac and cheese is only a pot of boiling water away...

[Chris Hennes]

Mine didn't last long enough to test: I used some on the second day and the rest on the third, both times with identical results to day 1. So it does hold for a little while anyway. It has a higher water content than just cheese, but I am not sure of the preservative effects of the salts.

[jmolinari]

Given the emulsifying salts, I wonder if vac packing and freezing would be ok. I guess it would.

[Kerry Beal]

I've still got some around - I'll put some away in the freezer today and retest it's texture in a couple of days.

[jmolinari]

Thanks Kerry...not that i have the book, but it would be interesting nonetheless.

[Chris Hennes]

So, I'm making (or should I say, "attempting to make") the "Aromatic Alsatian Mustard". Nothing Modernist-y here, it's just mustard. But I realized after blending it that I may have misunderstood the intent of the instructions, so if I could get your take on this:
1) Blanch mustard seeds
2) Combine seeds with vinegar
3) Soak for 12h
4) Combine soaked mustard seeds with other ingredients and process

In step four, do you interpret that to mean "drain mustard seeds and combine seeds only"? Or "combine seeds/vinegar mix"? I simply assumed that, given the very precise quantity of vinegar called for (none of the "to cover" stuff), and given that there is a step for combining the vinegar and mustard seed, that if they had wanted them drained they would have said so. But I'm having second thoughts: the mustard came out of the food processor pretty thin. Any advice?

[edsel]

the mustard came out of the food processor pretty thin. Any advice?

Maybe the mustard will thicken as it stands, now that the seeds have been blended with the liquid ingredients.

[Kerry Beal]

I'm for it thickening as it sits - most mustard I've made contains the vinegar.

[b-ry]

nathanm -

With regards to the the pizza method posting...

I am excited to try this method out because I have spent a lot of time trying make pizzas in my home oven that replicate a brick oven.

I tracked down a local steel fabricator and they were concerned with steel and food safety. After much discussion we decided that we need to use T316 stainless steel to create the steel rack for the oven, but they still weren't really able to answer if T316 was safe to 550 degrees in an oven.

Is T316 the correct type of steel to use? Is it oven safe to 550 degrees? What did you use in your tests?

Thanks.

Edited by b-ry, 22 February 2011 - 04:09 PM.