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eG Foodblog: johnder, slkinsey, weinoo (2011) - A tale of two boroughs

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#61 weinoo

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 07:42 AM

Time for breakfast? If you're insane like me, you've already been up for like 4 hours, done 6 loads of laundry and are ready to head to the gym. Lucky me - both the laundry AND the gym are in my building...one of the things that makes our NYC apartment living more bearable.

Anyway, everyone knows that I think you should never skip breakfast, and I really do live that maxim to the fullest extent possible. And since I started this topic about hot cereal add-ins, I decided to give some of the ideas a whirl, starting today.

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I started by toasting the oatmeal in a bit of butter, till it was brown, rather than starting it in plain water...

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Then I added the water along with some raisins, dried cranberries and dried apricots to the pot, and cooked it for about 7 - 8 minutes...

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And here's breakfast (that's my 2nd cuppa joe, by the way)...

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My verdict: Meh. Toasting does bring a different element to the finished product (ummm, toastiness?) but I don't know if I want that element in my breakfast cereal. Makes it taste too much like a side dish of grain. I suppose with a more savory add-in (bacon!) it might be better. For now, I'll skip that step.

Oh, and for dessert, I always have these. It's the slightly Woody Allenish, slightly neurotic middle-aged NYC jewishness in me. In the case of one of them, a necessary evil, since I was diagnosed with slightly high blood pressure 8 or 9 years ago. The rest are vitamins, probiotics and whatever else I have laying around...

IMG_0973_1.JPG

Okay, off to the gym now. I might join johnder for a quick lunch in a few hours - surprises await.
Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"
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#62 slkinsey

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 07:55 AM

Okay, I can see that I have very much fallen behind!

My part of this blog will be different from John's and Mitch's -- fundamentally for the reasons that I'm extremely short on time, and Mrs. slkinsey and I have determined to eat only one "full meal" a day so we can lose some weight. Everything else will be snacking (and drinking, of course). Yesterday didn't even have that. We were out of the house most of the day involved in various opera singing-related activities, and came back just in time to see the Green Bay Packers wipe the field with the Chicago Bears. I would have loved to have my heart broken by watching the Jets game as well, but since I love my wife and want to stay married, I could pick only one game to watch.

Today I'll be picking up a big order from the butcher, breaking some items down, processing and cooking some, and vacuum-packing them for the freezer. I'll also roast a pound or two of coffee beans for espresso. Dinner will likely be three cocktails.

We woke up late today, so no time to shame johnder about his espresso skills. Tomorrow. Also like johnder, we are not really morning people when it comes to eating on workday mornings. This morning's breakfast was a cup of press-pot coffee.

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This tiny piece of counter between the sink and the stove gives you some idea what we have to work with in my kitchen. Later, if I can get some good pictures, I'll show everyone around my various space-saving devices. When Mrs. slkinsey moved into the apartment, she presided over a fairly extensive reorganization, reconfiguration and redecoration of the apartment, including such projects as tearing out the inside of the hall closet and turning it into a pantry (which I promptly filled up with food, booze and culinary equipment.
Samuel Lloyd Kinsey

#63 johnder

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:32 AM

I am intrigued by the concept of flaming a citrus peel over a drink. I can intellectually see how burning the oils leads to a more complex and maybe pronounced flavor. However, I am scared spitless (and y'all know I cleaned *that* up....) by the thought of introducing live fire over high proof alcohol.


The first time I have seen a flamed orange twist is from the master Dale Degroff. He starting doing these when working at the Rainbow room here in NYC and when someone ordered a cosmo back then, they would get a little bar showmanship like the great days of Jerry Thomas. I think there is little risk of starting any fires by doing this, as the oils exuded even from the freshest orange will quickly evaporate and the flames will disperse almost immediately.

I have flamed hundreds of oranges over varying proofs of alcohol (up to 135.5 proof Red Hook Rye) without any incidents. Although I wouldn't recommend it, people have been know to take a flamed twist or two on the hand behind the bar by accident as well.

In terms of flavor, it really does change the dynamic of a drink and while it works well in some drinks, I personally don't think it works well in others. For instance, I really don't like it in a negroni. As Mitch mentioned, it works really well in the cornwall negroni though. I really like it in Phil Ward's Oaxaca OF though.

The trick to flaming a twist is to make sure you hold it far enough away from the flame, you don't want to carbonize or blacken the peel before you squeeze it. Otherwise you will pick up almost a burnt plastic taste. Also, gently move the peel back and forth over the flame to warm the entire peel before finally moving it close and squeezing quickly to exude the oils.

Give it a shot!
John Deragon

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#64 weinoo

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:36 AM

The trick to flaming a twist is to make sure you hold it far enough away from the flame, you don't want to carbonize or blacken the peel before you squeeze it. Otherwise you will pick up almost a burnt plastic taste. Also, gently move the peel back and forth over the flame to warm the entire peel before finally moving it close and squeezing quickly to exude the oils.

Give it a shot!

The other trick - don't do it over a darn candle, like the bartender was doing the other night when Sig Eater and I were dining at an unnamed bar/restaurant. Use a long-stemmed match or, as in the video above, a butane lighter.
Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"
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#65 johnder

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:40 AM

Wow, it is cold here in NYC. Not as cold as it is at the house upstate, which, looking at the weather last night it was -15 with wind chill down to -29. Youch.

Anyway, as I mentioned I am not much of a morning person. I work in midtown, directly across from the David Letterman theatre. My commute in the morning is about a 25 minute subway ride, which is somewhere between crowded and packed. To fortify myself for the ride I walk a block or two out of the way at home to stop by a local cafe called Roots. Given this is Park Slope they are somewhat crunchy as you can tell by the menu. Jamey, the owner is from Alabama so there are a few touches of home there for him. Like the side of grits you get with your breakfast sandwich.

ROOTS2.jpg

For me, it is just a quick latte, one sugar. They pull Stumptown hairbender shots and it is just enough caffeine to make me survive the train.

roots1.jpg


Depending on how my day is looking, I may grab a buttered kaiser roll from the coffee cart on the corner of my building, but today the line was too long and it was too cold outside to stand in line.
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I feel sorry for people that don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day -- Dean Martin

#66 Shelby

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:41 AM

So, first set of photos. Starting with a bunch of snacks while the wings cook.

First, I am somewhat addicted to thix Pnxtos you can get at Fairway market here in Park Slope. (There is also one up by Sam on the upper west side). I am sure I can roll them myself, but these do save a lot of time. They are damn tasty too.





Also a pickled veg plate. This has the pickled mushrooms and pickled spiced artichoke hearts from Fairway, as well as some giardiniere from Doc Pickle at the local farmers market.



What's snacking without some pork? Some sliced meats from Eataly.





For the wings, I am too lazy tonight to break out the fryer, so I am going the oven method. I joint the wings (saving the wing tips for stock) and dust them in rice flour and salt. Put them on a foil lined half-sheet pan sprayed with crisco and bake on convection at 400 until brown. Flipping once or twice.



These are in the oven now. The sauce is your basic buffalo wing sauce. Butter (in lieu of traditional margarine), Franks, a dash of cayenne and my own twist, a handful of these pickled thai chillies.


The wings are still in the oven, but will post a pic when they come out.

While they are cooking, I had a nice cocktail. I blurred out parts of the bottle to protect the innocent. :biggrin:




For me, there are two drinks that you need to shake so hard that you feel your arm is going to fall off. A Ramos and a Daiquiri. I love the shards of ice in this drink and it really helps with dilution since this is barrel proof.



I've never seen pinchos before! I'm dying to try that. Must google to find the right anchovies.

#67 johnder

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:01 AM

Given I don't have any breakfast shots, I figured I would talk a little about the upstate place. It is located in the southern most part of the Adirondack Parkm which is a 6+ million acre state park. The land the house is built on is technically part of the APA and in the state park which makes the building regulations and restrictions very tough. There is no new building alllowed in the area, and only existing buildings can be replaced/repaired.

As I mentioned, we can only reach the house via boat. We park the car over at a shared boathouse along with 16 other property owners and use one of our two boats. One is the work barge, the other a small jon-boat. In the winter the house is accessible via snowmobile or cross country skiing. It is only about a .33 mile trip door to door.

We are in the process now of finalizing the kitchen cabinets and flooring selection, but work has pretty much stopped for the winter. I am pretty determine to have a gas stove at the house since I really despise electric stoves, so last summers project was running all the necessary propane lines for the heat and stove.

The Adirondacks has a long history of the weekend escape place for the rich and famous of NY back in the golden days. President Coolidge spent two months vacation there back in 1926. A odd quirk about the Adirondacks is that everyone calls their house a camp. It can be the dingiest shack or the grandiose houses, but everyone has a "camp".

Cooking while up there is pretty much at this point restricted to the weber grill, or my offset smoker. Given all the work that happens during the day, it is great to stick some ribs or a pork shoulder on the smoker and not have to fuss with it. Of course the requisite side up there are salt potatoes.

Here are a couple of shots as you approach from the lake.

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View from the upstairs overlooking the great room:

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And finally the view from the great room out to the lake:

lake4.jpg
John Deragon

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#68 weinoo

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:42 AM

I figured I might do some bread/pizza/focaccia baking later in the week, and along those lines, thought I might even do some sourdough, even though it drives me crazy.

I always have some starter in my fridge, though it's not always in the greatest of shape. And it should always be revived prior to using it, otherwise it won't do a darn thing.

Take a look at this...

Disgusting Starter 2_1.JPG
That's what my starter looks like right now. So next...

Disgusting Starter 1_1.JPG
Take a little bit of starter - don't stir that crap on top back in...pour it off and scrape the top layer of gunk off. The stuff underneath is what you want. About a tablespoonful...

Starter Tiny Bit_1.JPG

Stirred into equal parts flour (I'm using bread flour) and water...

Starter Raring to Go_1.JPG

Cover and set it aside. We'll refeed it in 8 - 12 hours. Or before I go to bed.
Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"
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#69 johnder

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 10:31 AM

One of the daily annoyances I deal with here at work is the coffee situation. This is the monstrosity I need to put up with.
coffee.jpg


While It is leaps and bounds over the k-cup machine we used to have. These Flavia (now Alterra) packets are still pretty absymal. It is like filtering tepid water through a bag of coffee scented sawdust.

For a while I used to bring in my all-in-one french press travel mug, but something happened to the hot water dispenser in that it decided at some point along the way that hot water meant dispensing 170 degree water.

It used to spit out 210 degree water which made a pretty good cup. I would bring in some ground coffee from home in pre-measured packs and dump them into the french press and life would be good. Now I have that joy removed from my daily worklife.

Can you tell I am a bit annoyed? I need coffee. :-(
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I feel sorry for people that don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day -- Dean Martin

#70 weinoo

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 10:36 AM

Isn't Flavia one of the contestants on Top Chef Masters?
Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"
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#71 andiesenji

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 11:25 AM


Some butter would help with making them less healthy and very tasty. I think they look good but butter makes everything better.

Ahh, santo_grace, so right you are. There is 1/3 cup of butter along with 1 egg in the recipe. It helped, but still not enough for Sig Eater :biggrin: .



I use the same recipe but I add a cup of crushed pineapple, well drained, and 1/4 cup less liquid than in the original recipe.

bake for about 5 additional minutes. Internal temp should be 190°F though the probe may have a bit of sticky stuff from the pineapple on it, there should be no unbaked batter.

Edited by andiesenji, 24 January 2011 - 11:26 AM.

"There are, it has been said, two types of people in the world. There are those who say: this glass is half full. And then there are those who say: this glass is half empty. The world belongs, however, to those who can look at the glass and say: What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!" Terry Pratchett
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#72 Darienne

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 11:29 AM

Hello Mitch,

Just found this thread and am delighted. Reason #1 is the set of photos of your kitchen...which is the same shape as my kitchen, only much better filled and organized obviously.

Later today, DH and I will sit and review all your photos and see if we can replicate some of your space solutions in our own house.

(Size and shape of the kitchen are my 'fault'. Fifteen years ago when the kitchen was carved out of space, I did not like cooking and it was sufficient. Now, alas, it is not, and my kitchen is in the kitchen, breezeway, garage, studio, and living room. Oops. Forgot, in the cellar too.)

Thanks again.
Darienne


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#73 weinoo

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 12:50 PM



Some butter would help with making them less healthy and very tasty. I think they look good but butter makes everything better.

Ahh, santo_grace, so right you are. There is 1/3 cup of butter along with 1 egg in the recipe. It helped, but still not enough for Sig Eater :biggrin: .

I use the same recipe but I add a cup of crushed pineapple, well drained, and 1/4 cup less liquid than in the original recipe.

bake for about 5 additional minutes. Internal temp should be 190°F though the probe may have a bit of sticky stuff from the pineapple on it, there should be no unbaked batter.

That sounds good, and might even bring Sig Eater over to the "dark side" of whole grain cereals :wink: .
Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"
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#74 weinoo

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 12:53 PM

Hello Mitch,

Just found this thread and am delighted. Reason #1 is the set of photos of your kitchen...which is the same shape as my kitchen, only much better filled and organized obviously.

Later today, DH and I will sit and review all your photos and see if we can replicate some of your space solutions in our own house.

(Size and shape of the kitchen are my 'fault'. Fifteen years ago when the kitchen was carved out of space, I did not like cooking and it was sufficient. Now, alas, it is not, and my kitchen is in the kitchen, breezeway, garage, studio, and living room. Oops. Forgot, in the cellar too.)

Thanks again.


Hire a Swede :laugh: . And don't forget the IKEA catalog.
Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"
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My eGullet FoodBog - A Tale of Two Boroughs
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#75 Darienne

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 01:11 PM

Hire a Swede :laugh: . And don't forget the IKEA catalog.

Oddly enough, we were just mentioning Ikea this morning as we contemplated our next move... :biggrin:
Darienne


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#76 weinoo

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 01:12 PM

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So, on my way to lunch (which wasn't with johnder as those plans got waylaid), and in the interest of all the Pez fanatics, I passed by this joint...

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Where you're not allowed to take pix inside...hahaha. Check out the penny candy collection. They're not a penny, but they are cool...

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They've got these old-time gums...

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As for Pez...

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And I didn't even get caught :smile: .
Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"
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Tasty Travails - My Blog
My eGullet FoodBog - A Tale of Two Boroughs
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#77 Darienne

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 01:44 PM

Just to give you an idea of how old I am...although why I would want to do that I don't know...I had Pez candy when it wasn't available in North America. My aunt, who was secretary to the Director of the ILO (International Labor Office) was stationed in Switzerland during WWII and after, and sent them to me from Europe in the 40s.

What if I had kept the containers???? :raz:
Darienne


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Cheers & Chocolates

#78 johnder

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 05:12 PM

So Mitch ended up filling the extra seat at the bee tasting after I convinced him to join after our afternoon visit to cocktail kingdom. We will have lots of photos and info after we are done in a few hours.
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#79 johnder

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:48 PM

So as you know, I didn't have a chance to grab breakfast and unfortunately I was stuck in meetings most of the day and ended up having to grab a quick sandwich on the way to meet Mitch at cocktail kingdom. Luckily Eisenbergs is right down the block.

mon.jpg

I grabbed a quick Pastrami to go. By default if you order a Pastrami sandwich in NY you will get it on rye, with spicy brown mustard and a dill pickle wrapped in waxed deli paper.

This is about as old school as you can get here in NYC for sandwiches. Old deli counter, surly waitstaff.

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mon1.jpg

Unfortunately, I had to eat this back the the CK office so it was a real scarf moment. Overall it was a decent sandwich. It was a bit dry, which could be attested to how late in the day it was ordered. But also I don't think they keep their pastrami on a steam table like Carnegie or Katz's

mon2.jpg
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I feel sorry for people that don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day -- Dean Martin

#80 johnder

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:56 PM

I ended up meeting Mitch at Greg Boehm's Cocktail Kingdom where donbert is also working now.
This was a total geek out for both of us.

For those unitiated, this is the defacto place to get your quality barware, as well as amazing reproductions of antique cocktail books.

They are going to be moving in a few months, but in the interim they have a very small showroom in the foyer displaying their wares:

Bittters selection

ck3.jpg

Dasher bottles and ice tools

ck4.jpg

Misc books and Moscow mule mugs.

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Strainers, spoons, mixing glasses

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Moving away from the foyer there is the stock area -- bitters anyone?

ck7.jpg

(splitting this into two posts because of all the images)
John Deragon

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I feel sorry for people that don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day -- Dean Martin

#81 johnder

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:05 PM

So one of the more amazing things is inside Gregs actual office are just random, amazing things lying around just about everywhere. Here Greg and Don are looking for some obscure item to show off to us:

ck22.jpg

Maybe some crazy antique hawthorn strainers? One of which there are only possibly 3 known to exist?

ck8.jpg

Crazy antique Parisian and cobbler shakers?

ck11.jpg

How about a few antique dasher bottles?

ck12.jpg

Or a antique wood juicer?

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Also around are some rare liquors, two of which I have never seen before:

Whiskey distilled in Mexico!?

ck13.jpg

Medicinal Whiskey instead?

ck17.jpg

Lastly, Don and Greg were kind enough to give a few sneak peaks to things that just became available:

Their new wormwood bitters, and a reproduction Flowing Bowl - What and When to drink.

ck18.jpg
John Deragon

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I feel sorry for people that don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day -- Dean Martin

#82 johnder

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:08 PM

Lastly, here are are some random items that are in prototype mode. There are two Blue Blazer mugs, the one on the left is the one going to production and should be available soon.

There is also a new julep strainer, which is based on one of the antique models shown above. It is about double the weight of a standard one you can get now, and much more teardrop shaped.

Also, behold the new "pimp my bartool" gold line for the high end bartenders in the group.

ck20.jpg
John Deragon

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I feel sorry for people that don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day -- Dean Martin

#83 weinoo

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:28 PM

Awesome pics, John. Now what the hell am I supposed to post :angry:?!

Only kidding :smile: . As John mentioned above, we got to see some very cool stuff at Cocktail Kingdom. But before I met John, I was in the mood for some ramen.

We're pretty lucky here in NYC to have a number of decent to good ramen places to choose from. After I made that stop at Economy Candy, I headed a bit further northeast, and ended up here, at Minca Ramen...

IMG_0987_1.JPG

They make all sorts of ramen soups along with some other offerings like gyoza and small salads. I had a big, steaming bowl of pork ramen, which hit the spot. Their noodles tend to be a bit chewier than many of the other ramen joints, in my opinion, and I like that...

IMG_0989_1.JPG

And after cocktail kingdom, we continued on to a beer tasting at Beer Table in Park Slope, or whatever that part of Brooklyn is called.
Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"
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Tasty Travails - My Blog
My eGullet FoodBog - A Tale of Two Boroughs
Was it you baby...or just a Brilliant Disguise?

#84 johnder

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:37 PM

Also, as a reminder. If there are any specific proteins you are wanting to see incorporated possibly into the battle mystery box Thursday, start getting your votes in now!
John Deragon

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--
I feel sorry for people that don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day -- Dean Martin

#85 weinoo

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:39 PM

Last thing, and I hope you don't think I forgot about her. Remember this...

Disgusting Starter 2_1.JPG
Which about 8 hours ago I turned into this...

Starter Raring to Go_1.JPG
Now, it looks like this...

IMG_1031_1.JPG
So, it all got dumped out (except for maybe a tablespoon), and fed again like above. We'll see what it looks like in the morning.
Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"
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Tasty Travails - My Blog
My eGullet FoodBog - A Tale of Two Boroughs
Was it you baby...or just a Brilliant Disguise?

#86 FrogPrincesse

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 10:12 PM

Wow. The selection of vintage cocktail gear at Cocktail Kingdom looks fantastic!! I am so jealous. I've never seen anything like it.

Also, as a reminder. If there are any specific proteins you are wanting to see incorporated possibly into the battle mystery box Thursday, start getting your votes in now!

My vote goes to duck, just because it's my favorite protein.

#87 Pierogi

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 11:18 PM

We'd also like to figure out ways to save money by bringing lunches to our soul-killing day jobs instead of buying, but we're getting tired of sandwiches and they're kind of a pain in the butt to make every morning.


Amen. I gave up on sandwiches a while ago. Now I repurpose whatever was dinner the night before.
...

I was doing the same thing when I was still working. Leftovers from dinners earlier in the week were my lifesaver. I found a lot of things....pastas especially, or even chunks of protein with some veggies on the side...tasted just fine without being nuked if they'd sat at room temperature for the morning. I'd pull them from the fridge as I was leaving home, and then NOT put them in the fridge at work. They were usually....coolish...when I wanted to eat them, and tasted just fine, better even than if they'd been nuked. As I was cleaning up from dinner, I'd package them into lunch-sized containers that went into the fridge for later in the week.

Some things, obviously, needed to be reheated. Stews, gumbos, braises, layered, baked pastas, anything that had a lot of fatty sauce, needed a quick run through the microwave. But saucy pastas, not so much.

However, don't disparage the occassional sandwich....especially leftover ham, roast beef or meatloaf (my personal fave). But make them the night before, as you're cleaning up from dinner, wrap them and stick them in the fridge. Who wants to face that in the morning !?!?!?! BTW, in most cases (attention...common sense needed), those also taste best at coolish room temperature.
--Roberta--
"Let's slip out of these wet clothes, and into a dry Martini" - Robert Benchley
Pierogi's eG Foodblog

My *outside* blog, "A Pound Of Yeast"

#88 Pierogi

Pierogi
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  • Location:Long Beach, CA

Posted 24 January 2011 - 11:22 PM

Thanks, you guys for the "flaming peel" tutorial and encouragement. I'll give it a go this week, and report back.

BTW.....my maternal grandfather ran a speakeasy on Chicago's South Side during Prohibition. You guys are my long-lost soul mates, I think. LOVED the "medicinal" whiskey...Lord knows *I'VE* always found some lovely spirits good for what ails me.
--Roberta--
"Let's slip out of these wet clothes, and into a dry Martini" - Robert Benchley
Pierogi's eG Foodblog

My *outside* blog, "A Pound Of Yeast"

#89 weinoo

weinoo
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Posted 25 January 2011 - 05:24 AM

Wow. The selection of vintage cocktail gear at Cocktail Kingdom looks fantastic!! I am so jealous. I've never seen anything like it.


Also, as a reminder. If there are any specific proteins you are wanting to see incorporated possibly into the battle mystery box Thursday, start getting your votes in now!

My vote goes to duck, just because it's my favorite protein.

Those pix only begin to tell the story, as Greg is a font of information as well. He only likes to acquire things that have a story, and he's pretty much able to tell a story about EVERYTHING.

Here are a couple of items which don't appear above. These are some excellent non-antique swizzle sticks...

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Here are some very old toddy sticks...

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And finally, an ancient book...

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I mean, this book has a date of 1675...and it's not a reprint!
Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"
mweinstein@eGstaff.org
Tasty Travails - My Blog
My eGullet FoodBog - A Tale of Two Boroughs
Was it you baby...or just a Brilliant Disguise?

#90 hathor

hathor
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Posted 25 January 2011 - 07:32 AM

Can anyone go to Cocktail Kingdom, or only if accompanied by Someone Special? That place looks amazing. Please tell me the book is being safely stored. I'm completely and totally jealous.

That sandwich shop is simply gorgeous. I just don't like sandwiches, never did, so I don't really 'get it' as the sign says, but I'd still like to visit.

Mitch, my starter never looks that soupy, mine usually looks like partially risen dough and I'll use up to 40 or 50% starter. Whole different approach. Interesting.





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