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Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment (Part 8)

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#61 PedroG

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 07:51 PM

I have now a shoulder pork roast in the 59.5 C bath for the last 27 hours. The temp in the center has been at 59.5 c for several hours.

The amount of callogen transforming is incredible.. It seem that the piece is actually melting. Is there a rule on how many hours I should let it sit at that temp ?

It seems to be a consensus on ribs at 48 hours

Tks in advance for your help

See upthread, 48h/55°C is fine, at 59.5°C somewhere between 24h and 36h may do.
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#62 PedroG

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 04:23 AM

Sous Vide Thickness ruler revisited, post 3711
I was not satisfied by the stiffness of the cardboard I had at hand, now here's the final solution, sacrificing an old lever arch file:
Thickness_ruler_on_ring-binder_pano_1200px.jpg
To download the PDF, follow the this link.
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#63 Corymoto

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 12:13 PM


FYI - The Modernist Cuisine website has an 'about the book' pdf file that has a recipe for Sous Vide Instant Hollandaise. I made it about a week ago, worked very well, pretty foolproof. Here's a link.


I'm very interested in your results. Looking at another's results, I wonder if you had the same 'foam' outcome ... the recipe calls for a siphon (I presume a soda siphon?) and the blogger used a "whip" which I am guessing is a whipped cream dispenser, which is quite likely a different outcome? I have no idea about these devices.

Was yours foamy?


Yes, I had very similar results. I did scale the recipe down a little bit for the amount of yolk I had on hand and used citric instead of malic acid. I used a thermowhip (not a soda siphon) just like the linked blogger.

I assume the foamy-ness is kinda the point of using a siphon (that and being able to hold it and dispense as required as the blogger pointed out...). It is a thick and rich foam, but seemed maybe a little 'lighter' than the traditional sauce. Maybe only 'lighter' in that it is less dense and as such, you may end up using less on a mass basis..? It was good on omelettes.

#64 alanjesq

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 02:32 PM

Michael Voltaggio in his sous video for Williams Sonoma sv's turkey thighs in duck fat. No clue where to purchase in St. Louis, but chicken fat is readily available. In his video he recommends using the fat nearest the product he is cooking. I would think chicken fat would be similar to duck fat. Any thoughts???

#65 Merridith

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 03:52 PM

Michael Voltaggio in his sous video for Williams Sonoma sv's turkey thighs in duck fat. No clue where to purchase in St. Louis, but chicken fat is readily available. In his video he recommends using the fat nearest the product he is cooking. I would think chicken fat would be similar to duck fat. Any thoughts???


You can order duck fat from Hudson Valley (and other wonderful and reasonably priced things). They send it REALLY fast, too!

In St. Louis, try the Wine & Cheese Place in Clayton, Local Harvest Grocery in the City or Winslow's Home in U City. Another possiblity is to call The Shaved Duck restaurant and see about getting some from them. If that does not work, put out an APB on StLBites.com and those great folks will probably be able to help you. I think that I have seen it around here (St. Louis) but I just can't recall where.

All that having been said, chicken fat is much more delicate than duck fat. It breaks down more easily in the rendering, I think. It liquifies instantly whereas duck fat stays coagulated much longer. I would suggest using good fresh lard as a duck fat replacement.
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#66 nathanm

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 08:38 PM

Here are some replies or comments on recent posts.

The "siphon" in the instant hollandaise recipe is a cream whipping siphon, such as ISI or Liss. A soda siphon won't work. The point of this recipe is that you can make a hollandaise foam that is foamed to order. You can of course just make the hollandaise in a blender.

I prefer pork ribs at 60C/140F for 48 hours, but everybody has their own notion of what "ideal" means.

Duck fat is great stuff - you can render your own, or buy it. However, there is really not much point in cooking with large amounts of it. Just a small amount puts the flavor in. You can even cook without out (sous vide in a bag with no oil) then dress with some duck fat at the end. The turkey thighs (from the Voltaggio video) will come out the same either way - it is not necessary to have a lot of duck fat.

The point of the duck fat is flavor at the end of the cooking process - that's all. Chicken fat would also be good tasting - but a very different taste. Frankly if you are looking for flavorful fat, cook the thighs/legs sous vide then dress with rendered bacon fat at the end.

Reheating something cooked sous vide, then chilled is best done using sous vide again. That avoids overcooking. You can then sear at the very end, or in the case of a fryer, fry at the end. The warm oven suggestion will also work, but harder to control.
Nathan

#67 MartinH

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 10:32 PM

Michael Voltaggio in his sous video for Williams Sonoma sv's turkey thighs in duck fat. No clue where to purchase in St. Louis, but chicken fat is readily available. In his video he recommends using the fat nearest the product he is cooking. I would think chicken fat would be similar to duck fat. Any thoughts???


I don't put duck fat (or chicken fat) in the bag because the meat gives off juices and then those fats just get poured away at the end with the liquids. It seems like a waste of good fat.

Not sure that using the fat "nearest" the product is best. Butter drizzled over meat is superb, but butter fat isn't "near" any meat.

Duck fat is easier to render than other fats because it melts at a relatively low temperature. Put some fatty duck skin in a bag, SV at 70 to 80, and lots a delicious fat is released.

#68 Borgstrom

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 10:38 PM

Michael Voltaggio in his sous video for Williams Sonoma sv's turkey thighs in duck fat. No clue where to purchase in St. Louis, but chicken fat is readily available. In his video he recommends using the fat nearest the product he is cooking. I would think chicken fat would be similar to duck fat. Any thoughts???


In a trial run for Thanksgiving, I made some turkey confit tonight based on Keller's approach for duck confit. They turned out awesome - definitely a keeper in my growing sous vide repertoire!

The night before, I processed some kosher salt and fresh thyme together and packed around two whole turkey leg/thighs. I bagged these, vacuum sealed and kept in fridge overnight.

In the morning I rinsed the turkey off well with cold water, patted dry and bagged again with three tablespoons of duck fat. After vacuum sealing, I put in the water bath at 82C for 10 hours.

Just before dinner, I took them out of the water bath & de-bagged. The meat was falling-off-the-bone tender and very juicy. I tried doing a quick fry to crisp up the skin and add some crunchy bits, but the meat just fell apart in the hot oil. I ended up just lifting the limp skin off the meat and frying it separately into a nice crispy sheet to serve with the meat. Yum!

Edit: I actually got the duck fat from Amazon.com! It's really amazing what you can get there...

Edited by Borgstrom, 19 November 2010 - 10:42 PM.


#69 Chris Amirault

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 06:44 AM

Thanks for the particulars, Borgstrom. I'm going to try this method for the big day....
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#70 nathanm

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 07:54 AM

Monday we will be posting a recipe for turkey wings to the Modernist Cuisine blog for turkey wings cooked sous vide - you cure them with salt first (as for duck confit) then you cook them 12 hours at 58C/137F for 12 hours.
Nathan

#71 travellin chef

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 05:59 AM

Hi All,
This is my first post but I've been reading this site, especially this thread, for quite some time...
First off, thanks to all on this thread for the wealth of information -it's unbelievable! Special thanks to Douglas Baldwin, nathanm, and Pedro for their hard work and research. Can't wait for 'Modernist Cuisine'!

I was hoping for a bit of clarification...

We're serving an Atlantic Ocean Trout at the moment and I want to be sure that it is as safe as possible...
Upon arrival the trout is cleaned, then cured with citrus, herbs, salt, sugar, and honey for 3hrs. Next it is portioned and cooked sous-vide in clarified butter @45C for 25min. We use a chamber type professional vacuum pac machine and a Polyscience 7306. Calibration is routinely checked with infrared and digital stick type thermometers. The trout is immediately chilled in an 80% ice bath, then is held on ice for a maximum of 48hrs. Any unsold pcs are discarded. For service, they are re-heated in a 45C bath for 5min and served. The portions are generally 15-20mm thick, around 50g. Guests are advised that the trout is served mi-cuit; not for pregnant ladies or immune compromised individuals.

Hygeine is quite strict in the country where I am at the moment so I have sent some samples to the lab for validation; would rather be safe than sorry!

My question is for the scientifically minded of the group: is this method as safe as can be, aside from serving the fish well-done? Am I being over-cautious by discarding un-sold portions after 2 days?

Thanks in advance!

Cheers.

#72 JBailey

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 06:45 AM

Last night I bought a jar of duck fat at Williams-Sonoma. It is from a Canadian firm called Rougie (www.rougie.us). The sticker on the jar is just under $11 for 11.28 oz. (320g). I will be trying it pre-Thanksgiving on a fresh boneless turkey breast that Costco featured. I likely will use Mr. Preston's recommendation of 4 hours @ 160 F, followed by 30 minutes in the oven at 350 F.
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#73 nathanm

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 07:35 AM

We're serving an Atlantic Ocean Trout at the moment and I want to be sure that it is as safe as possible...
Upon arrival the trout is cleaned, then cured with citrus, herbs, salt, sugar, and honey for 3hrs. Next it is portioned and cooked sous-vide in clarified butter @45C for 25min. We use a chamber type professional vacuum pac machine and a Polyscience 7306. Calibration is routinely checked with infrared and digital stick type thermometers. The trout is immediately chilled in an 80% ice bath, then is held on ice for a maximum of 48hrs. Any unsold pcs are discarded. For service, they are re-heated in a 45C bath for 5min and served. The portions are generally 15-20mm thick, around 50g. Guests are advised that the trout is served mi-cuit; not for pregnant ladies or immune compromised individuals.
Cheers.

Food safety is a statistical phenomenon - if food is very contaminated you can get sick even if you follow the guidelines; if it is not contaminated with pathogens then you can get away with a lot. That is, until you find some contamination.

Personally, I would not recomend the process you are using - I don't use cook-chill sous vide unless you cook to sterization/pasteurization temperatures and times. I would NOT recommend doing cook-chill at 45C. There are many pathogens that can survive that temperature, and then they will continue to slowly grow in the refer for up to 48 hours. This is not a good idea. Yes, you can get away with it if you fish isn't contaminated, but if you encounter some Listeria (or many other pathogens) your approach is not good.

Instead what I would do is just cook the fish at 45C and serve immediately. That is actually much safer than what you are doing. The 45C cooking period will not kill most pathogens, but it will accelerate their growth. Food safety wise you are better off storing the trout raw and cooking it to order than sous vide cooking first and chilling because your first cooking is NOT sufficient to kill many important pathogens.

In my own personal preference I think 45C is fully done fish with respect to texture and taste, not mi-cuit. If I really wanted mi-cuit, that is more like 38C - at that temperature salmon won't change color, and most white fleshed fish won't become opaque. However, the aspect of warning people on the menu is always a good idea.

One odd thing in your description is that you cook the fish for 25 minutes the first time, then reheat for 5 mintues. Are you serving it cold? In general for fish you do not need to cook it by holding it at a temperature - you only cook it long enough reach the desired core temperature. For fish pieces the size you describe 25 minutes should do that. In general for tender food cooked sous vide the reheat time is the same as the cooking time. Obivously that is not true for tough meats cooked for hours or days, but in general reheating takes the same amount of time as the cooking step. The 5 minute reheat won't possibly be enough to reheat the fish all the way through, so my conclusion is that you are serving it cold.

So, my recommendation is to cook to order. You can leave the fish in the bath at 45C during service (for up to 2-3 hours), but then discard what is left afterwards.

As I said in starting this point, it is always statistical so I don't doubt that you have gotten away with the approach you are using now for a while. The trouble is, you don't know that will always be the case, and your current process could make things worse when and if you do have some contamination.
Nathan

#74 JBailey

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 08:02 AM

Nathan, first thank you for all you are doing and for being available for questions and problems. In your last post, you suggest that reheating times should equal original cooking times. So a protein at say 140 F cooked for 90 minutes would then need the same time and temperature in the water bath after removing from the refrigerator?

My other question is about serving temperatures. If I am doing a steak at 140 for dinner F a la minute, I remove it from the vacuum bag, pat it dry and sear in a hot pan for the maillard reaction, then plate. However, by the time I put the steak on the plate and walk into the dining room, the first bite does not seem 'hot'. If I were at a steakhouse where they broil under significant temperatures, then the first bite is what we have come to expect for serving temperatures. Logically, I know an item prepared sous vide can never exceed the temperatures we have set. Is it our expectation or memory that when we see a steak that the first bites should be hot?
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#75 mjc

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 08:40 AM

This year for Thanksgiving, I was thinking of trying to do a Turkey breast "porchetta style" based on Mario Batali's recipe. I was thinking to stuff the breast with a turkey leg sausage and the appropriate seasonings and then cook it sous vide. Is this possible? If I do this can I still cook it to 140-145 like I would the breast itself or will that not work because of the leg meat? Do I need to to cook the sausage first?

Thanks for your advice!
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#76 alanjesq

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 09:15 AM

Since we are discussing food safety, I would like your opinion on the following. My wife is a do ahead fanatic, especially for Thanksgiving. This morning she made a sweet potato streusel mixture and after boiling the potatoes and such, spied my chamber vac machine. She vac'd her mixture and put it in our 36 degree F fridge. I suggested she put it in a ice bath first but I was overruled. Given the fact that the product was boiled, she probably has nothing to fear, but what do u all say?

#77 PedroG

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 09:53 AM

Since we are discussing food safety, I would like your opinion on the following. My wife is a do ahead fanatic, especially for Thanksgiving. This morning she made a sweet potato streusel mixture and after boiling the potatoes and such, spied my chamber vac machine. She vac'd her mixture and put it in our 36 degree F fridge. I suggested she put it in a ice bath first but I was overruled. Given the fact that the product was boiled, she probably has nothing to fear, but what do u all say?

See FOOD SAFETY HAZARDS AND CONTROLS FOR THE HOME FOOD PREPARER page 19-20. If you get your food below 40°F/4.4°C within 14 hours (USDA) you are on the safe side an may keep it refrigerated for 5 days.
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#78 PedroG

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 10:11 AM

Nathan, first thank you for all you are doing and for being available for questions and problems. In your last post, you suggest that reheating times should equal original cooking times. So a protein at say 140 F cooked for 90 minutes would then need the same time and temperature in the water bath after removing from the refrigerator?

Reheating times depend on thickness, see Douglas Baldwin's tables. If primary heating was just to bring the food (tender meat) to temperature, reheating time is the same, in contrast to the case of primary LTLT cooking to tenderize tough meat. In LTLT cooking cook-chill-store-reheat makes sense. In the case of tender meat, reheating after refrigerating makes sense only for leftovers, not for in-advance-cooking.

My other question is about serving temperatures. If I am doing a steak at 140 for dinner F a la minute, I remove it from the vacuum bag, pat it dry and sear in a hot pan for the maillard reaction, then plate. However, by the time I put the steak on the plate and walk into the dining room, the first bite does not seem 'hot'. If I were at a steakhouse where they broil under significant temperatures, then the first bite is what we have come to expect for serving temperatures. Logically, I know an item prepared sous vide can never exceed the temperatures we have set. Is it our expectation or memory that when we see a steak that the first bites should be hot?

With very hot and very short searing, we miss the temperature and texture gradient of traditional cooking. I quit searing at 240°C (smoke point of rice bran oil is around 247°C) in favor of 180-200°C (temperature in the skillet measured with an infrared thermometer), resulting in a thicker overdone layer (maybe 3mm instead of 1mm).
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#79 nickrey

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 04:17 PM

I think there may be some confusion possible from recent discussions.

Cooking to pasteurize or tenderize meat involves bringing it up to a core temperature and then holding it at that temperature for a pre-determined time. That is, minimum time to temperature plus some constant.

For re-heating you only need to have it in the bath for the minimum time to bring it up to temperature (what Nathan referred to as 'time to cook').

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#80 MartinH

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 09:48 PM

Any tips on sous vide meatloaf? I ran a search in this thread and the topic doesn't seem to have arisen.

#81 travellin chef

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 12:56 AM

Thanks for the detailed reply nathanm -this is exactly what I was looking for!
I had thought that by curing the trout first it would significantly improve the safety issue. Quite sobering to read your response on this...
I will definitely take your advice from this point and cook to order. It seems a few more trials are in order; will also try at 38C.
You're also correct re the temperature of the fish but it is served as a cold starter. It was only meant to bring the fish to room temperature.

Thanks again.

#82 Phaz

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 09:39 AM

This year for Thanksgiving, I was thinking of trying to do a Turkey breast "porchetta style" based on Mario Batali's recipe. I was thinking to stuff the breast with a turkey leg sausage and the appropriate seasonings and then cook it sous vide. Is this possible? If I do this can I still cook it to 140-145 like I would the breast itself or will that not work because of the leg meat? Do I need to to cook the sausage first?

Thanks for your advice!


I was considering doing the exact same thing and came here to ask the same question.

I was going to base mine off this. That has you butterfly the breasts, make a sausage from the leg meat then cook it all. He cooks it at 275 for 3-5 hours until it hits 145.

He says that if you are careful in removing the silverskin and getting just the dark meat from the legs, then you don't have to worry about cooking it to a higher temp, and it will be 'done' at 145 with the rest.

My main concern is if SVing the breasts takes too long. I know some protiens get mushy and unappetizing after too long in the bath. If these take 3-5 hours in a 275 oven I have no idea how long they would take in a 145 water bath. On one hand the water bath is a better way to transfer heat, but it's a much lower temperature. I think if the time scale is similar it would be doable, but if it takes 6-10 hours or something then it might not come out too great.

Edited by Phaz, 22 November 2010 - 09:40 AM.


#83 bmdaniel

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 11:18 AM

Question on shrimp (apologize if I missed something similar upthread) -

I am planning on serving shrimp remoulade as a starter for thanksgiving; ideally what I'd like to do is SV poach the shrimp the day before, and just toss the whole bag in the fridge (after ice bath) to serve cold the next day. I was probably going to go for about 50 min at 60C with a little oil and maybe some flavoring.

Any suggestions/thoughts? Do you think the shrimp will hold up well the next day with this treatment? Any other ideas on cooking temp/time (I've never done shrimp SV and never done any seafood in advance)

#84 Dave the Cook

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 01:48 PM

As none of the usual suspects has answered, I'll offer the shrimp formula I was given by a modernist chef: 2 hours at 123°F/50.5°C. For service, he grilled them for 30 seconds per side, but said that was just to warm them up. 50°C seems low to me, but I have to say the shrimp were perfect.

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#85 Big Mike

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 02:05 PM

Dave Arnold over at CookingIssues.com likes the ziploks too.


Awesome, can't wait to use that technique. Great timing, I was about to plunk down $200 on a food saver. I might still but I want to spend the money on the SV equipment to experiment first so it doesn't end up in the little-used equipment hall of fame (next to my panini grill and baguette bread pans).
 
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#86 bmdaniel

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 02:17 PM

I think that sounds reasonable; the only issue is that I would prefer to pasteurize them if I can without a significant degradation in quality (I really don't want to poison my breastfeeding wife) - that's really what led me to 60C for 50 mins. I would love to hear if anyone has tried that and not turned their shrimp to mush or overcooked?

#87 Paul Kierstead

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 03:03 PM

Thanks, nathan, for the info on the hollandaise. It is good, I can get a 1/2 pint whip for around-the-house for guests and try it out (soda siphons only seem to come in quart sizes).

On a side note, surely some manufacturer can step up to the plate and make a $500 vacuum chamber machine? I'll pony up for it.

#88 alanjesq

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 04:00 PM

Contact Dave Reuch at Ary, Inc. I believe the model 112 vacmaster is sellIng for 675.00 or so. At least I saw it doing a Google search going for same. Outstanding machine. Not $500.00, but close. I am nuts about mine. The cost of the bags will pay for the machine. I know. I owned 4 Foodsavers that kept crapping out after the warranty period.
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#89 PedroG

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 04:36 PM

I think that sounds reasonable; the only issue is that I would prefer to pasteurize them if I can without a significant degradation in quality (I really don't want to poison my breastfeeding wife) - that's really what led me to 60C for 50 mins. I would love to hear if anyone has tried that and not turned their shrimp to mush or overcooked?

Douglas Baldwin's book page 210-211 recommends 60°C/for 30-40 minutes (assuming your shrimps are not thicker than 20mm, this is pasteurizing conditions).
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#90 Edward Dekker

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 05:07 PM

On a side note, surely some manufacturer can step up to the plate and make a $500 vacuum chamber machine? I'll pony up for it.


There is at least one vacuum chamber sealer close to your price. The Ary VacMaster VP-112.

I have seen the VacMaster VP-112 as low as $670 including shipping (at www.qualitymatters.com). There is a VP-112 demo video on the Kodiak Health site (kodiakhealth.com).

The other source for deals in chamber vacuum sealers is to watch for used units on ebay and craig's list. I purchased a large unit in perfect condition for less than 20% of the new price for an equivilent model from craig's list. (A Bizerba 350)





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