368 replies to this topic

[Chris Amirault]

[Moderator's note: we're dividing the sous vide discussion into annual topics to make it more manageable for members and for our server! Click on the links below for earlier discussion.]

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Edited by LindaK, 13 January 2013 - 08:09 PM.
added note and links

[TheTInCook]

Gotta think SV could produce great greens, esp. collard and kale, but can't find any references to either collard or kale in this topic, the eG SV index

Thomas Keller is pretty definite about excluding many green vegetables from sous vide, though his concern is in part preserving color. He prefers "big pot boiling" where one cooks just to the point of tenderness in a gigantic, very salty pot of boiling water, then plunges into ice water to arrest the cooking. This was one of the better home cooking lessons from The French Laundry Cookbook, reprised in Under Pressure.

Greens like collards and kale aren't usually cooked like that. They're pretty tough, so they are generally braised for a long time. They certainly don't keep their vibrant color.

[mark28209]

Very successful experiment: 1.25 lb collards, stems removed, cut into ribbons, bagged with 2T butter, 1 hour @ 185. Although there was some loss of color per Keller, they were mighty darn fine greens, lush, silky with a heightened sweetness that I have never noticed in my traditional preparation.

Having gone native he'ah in Cha'lut, I have been doing my greens in smoked-pork-infested water. I am going to experiment with some of my pulled pork bits in the bag (as I do with brussel sprouts), maybe (partially) substituting bacon fat for butter, hopefully not to overwhelm the sweetness.

Color issue aside, worth a try.

[FeChef]

Whoever is able to develop a reusable vacuum bag will retire on a beach next to the folks who developed Cool-Ranch Doritos flavoring.

These bags can be reused if light duty like 132F steaks for a few hours. I dont know if they would hold up for 2+ day baths though.

[Filipp]

Hi
I am very interested to start with sous vide cooking. But i have one main concern at that is boutulism.
How likley Will it be to produce the deadly toxin if i cook like a piece of meat following the gguideline and Then eat it. If i get som leftovers i Will store it in a regular foodbox. Or is the real danger When u start to store cooked food in vaccum bags.
Can there be a chans of botulism if Cook according to the guidlines and Then stored NOT in vaccum?

[nickrey]

See this section of Douglas Baldwin's practical guide to sous vide. Better still, read the whole document. It will answer not only this question but many others you may have about sous vide cooking.

[Filipp]

See this section of Douglas Baldwin's practical guide to sous vide. Better still, read the whole document. It will answer not only this question but many others you may have about sous vide cooking.

I have read it but since My english isnt that great I just want to doublecheck with u guys.
If i understand it correct the safe way to cook sousvide is cook-hold. And Then if i get some leftovers it is safe to store them in the fridge in a none vaccum container?

That way should be safe regarding botulism?

Edited by Filipp, 06 January 2013 - 05:43 AM.

[nickrey]

It really depends on the level of hazard at each step of the process. This is how HACCP plans are worked out.

You can cook hold and serve following the guidelines for holding to keep the food safe. You can also cook chill store using the guidelines given in that section of Douglas' guide. If the food is still sealed after your hold, you can cook hold chill store as long as your holding temperature was above 55C.

As you are just starting to cook sous vide and have some difficulties reading English, I'd be getting Douglas' book "Sous Vide for the Home Cook" and following his guidelines for pasteurising the food.

It is a bit more hazardous doing cook hold serve chill revacuum and freeze given the extra steps of chilling and thawing and adding what may now be non-pasteurised food to a vacuum.

What you probably don't want to do is cook hold serve chill revacuum and the store in fridge.

[Filipp]

It really depends on the level of hazard at each step of the process. This is how HACCP plans are worked out.

You can cook hold and serve following the guidelines for holding to keep the food safe. You can also cook chill store using the guidelines given in that section of Douglas' guide. If the food is still sealed after your hold, you can cook hold chill store as long as your holding temperature was above 55C.

As you are just starting to cook sous vide and have some difficulties reading English, I'd be getting Douglas' book "Sous Vide for the Home Cook" and following his guidelines for pasteurising the food.

It is a bit more hazardous doing cook hold serve chill revacuum and freeze given the extra steps of chilling and thawing and adding what may now be non-pasteurised food to a vacuum.

What you probably don't want to do is cook hold serve chill revacuum and the store in fridge.

Ok, thanks for the reply, i think i am starting to get it now.
So cook- hold the food. Then if u get any leftovers there is safe to store the in the fridge without vaccum, just like in a plastic container.
But it is a big nono to revaccum and store already cooked food in the fridge?

[rotuts]

you can re-vacuum and store, but that's no better than plastic wrap or a plain plastic container. its not longer pasteurized. and you waste a vacuum bag.

[Filipp]

you can re-vacuum and store, but that's no better than plastic wrap or a plain plastic container. its not longer pasteurized. and you waste a vacuum bag.

Okey,
Acctualy My Only concern with this method (sous vide) of cooking is the risk of botulism.
But it seems to be safe from that as long as u cook-hold and then dont reheat any possible leftovers

[rotuts]

once they are left-overs, you treat them the same as any other left-overs. you can reheat them in that fashion, just not as a pasteurized keeper.

[Filipp]

once they are left-overs, you treat them the same as any other left-overs. you can reheat them in that fashion, just not as a pasteurized keeper.

Ok, thanks for the answer.
I just want to be sure what i am getting into :)
Am i correct when i say that the deadly toxin only Can be created in a anaero enviorment?

Edited by Filipp, 06 January 2013 - 05:04 PM.

[nickrey]

The botulinuum toxin does grow in an anaerobic environment but only if it is present in the first place. Pasteurisation reduces the likelihood of toxins, including botulism, being present to acceptable levels. There is science behind this but it is better just to say that pasteurisation leaves you with a product that is safe as long as you follow chilling and storage guidelines. So follow the guidelines to pasteurise the food, treat it appropriately and you will minimise your chances of food poisoning.

Bottom line, if you have cooked something and opened the package treat the contents as you would any other leftovers. Do not reseal them under vacuum. If you have cooked something to pasteurisation, held it at an appropriate temperature, not opened the bag, and chilled it appropriately then it can be kept using the guidelines in Douglas' guide.

[rotuts]

exactly

[FeChef]

I do alot of pre and post searing of meats when i SV. I find myself waisting alot of vacuum bags when i have to thaw them and cut them open to pre sear then re bag to cook. Im debating if it would be a good idea to pre sear, then quickly chill and freeze. This way i could just thaw and cook, or maybe even just go straight from fozen to cook and add an additional hour or two? Just looking for some thoughts on this if its safe. I see alot of food come frozen that are partially cooked, or flash fried but still raw inside.

[nickrey]

Why pre sear at all? Many of us don't. It is fine to cook from frozen. The additional time is dependent on the thickness of the product rather than just an arbitrary time.

[PedroG]

Hi FeChef
I agree with Nick: why pre-sear? You will post-sear anyway which gives you a crispier crust and some thermal gradient which many like from traditional cooking. I routinely do and I recommend marinating (lowering pH below 4.1 to inhibit bacterial growth and allowing prolonged aging in the fridge); BTW don't be afraid of plasticizers in cling film, it's PE which is soft without plasticizers (in ancient times it used to be PVC with phthalates as plasticizers). If you want to cook from frozen, there are four scenarios:

• Bring to core temperature according to Douglas Baldwin's table 2.3.
• LTLT cooking (48h or the like) -> no significant difference when starting from frozen instead of fridge.
• Pasteurizing: thaw in a pot of ice-cold water in the fridge, then SV to pasteurizing conditions according to Douglas Baldwin's table 3.1 / 4.1 / 5.1 respectively.
• Turbo-aging: heat in a 39°C water bath for a time according to Douglas Baldwin's table 2.3 (calpains most active), then change setpoint to 49°C (cathepsins most active), two hours later change setpoint to final core temperature for a time according to the tables.

Before post-searing, collect any drippings and add to the sauce (eventually after heating to coagulate and remove proteins), and dab dry for faster searing. Fastest searing is with rice bran oil (smoke point about 247°C) with the disadvantage of oil mist wafting all over your kitchen.

[FeChef]

Why pre sear at all? Many of us don't. It is fine to cook from frozen. The additional time is dependent on the thickness of the product rather than just an arbitrary time.

I mainly pre sear steaks. I find that little bit of charred fat adds a bold flavor to the meat while cooking. It also gives the steak a nice color straight out of the bag, and sometimes i find no need to post sear. To each their own, but i swear by pre searing.
I use a blow torch to do my searing. Pre searing takes 30 seconds per side and has no effect on outer ring color. Steaks come out med rare all the way through with no grey ring at all.

[nickrey]

Why pre sear at all? Many of us don't. It is fine to cook from frozen. The additional time is dependent on the thickness of the product rather than just an arbitrary time.

I mainly pre sear steaks. I find that little bit of charred fat adds a bold flavor to the meat while cooking. It also gives the steak a nice color straight out of the bag, and sometimes i find no need to post sear. To each their own, but i swear by pre searing.
I use a blow torch to do my searing. Pre searing takes 30 seconds per side and has no effect on outer ring color. Steaks come out med rare all the way through with no grey ring at all.

Check out this post on Serious Eats. As far as I have seen when people run experiments with blind tasting there is no difference between pre-searing + post-searing and post-searing alone.

[FeChef]

Why pre sear at all? Many of us don't. It is fine to cook from frozen. The additional time is dependent on the thickness of the product rather than just an arbitrary time.

I mainly pre sear steaks. I find that little bit of charred fat adds a bold flavor to the meat while cooking. It also gives the steak a nice color straight out of the bag, and sometimes i find no need to post sear. To each their own, but i swear by pre searing.
I use a blow torch to do my searing. Pre searing takes 30 seconds per side and has no effect on outer ring color. Steaks come out med rare all the way through with no grey ring at all.

Check out this post on Serious Eats. As far as I have seen when people run experiments with blind tasting there is no difference between pre-searing + post-searing and post-searing alone.

I read that article over a year ago, and do not agree. I can definitely taste the difference between a 2 inch thick filet mignon that has been pre charred and cooked for 4 hours vs one that has not been pre charred. Anybody that know how to cook will tell you the best part of a sauce or gravy is the brown bits that get deglazed in the pan, when you char a steak and vacuum seal it, your basicly letting the steaks natural juices mix with those charred bits and marinate the steak as it cooks.

[jmolinari]

Correct. Dave Arnold and the Cooking Issues team found a definite improvement by presearing.

[e_monster]

Why pre sear at all? Many of us don't. It is fine to cook from frozen. The additional time is dependent on the thickness of the product rather than just an arbitrary time.

I mainly pre sear steaks. I find that little bit of charred fat adds a bold flavor to the meat while cooking. It also gives the steak a nice color straight out of the bag, and sometimes i find no need to post sear. To each their own, but i swear by pre searing.
I use a blow torch to do my searing. Pre searing takes 30 seconds per side and has no effect on outer ring color. Steaks come out med rare all the way through with no grey ring at all.

Check out this post on Serious Eats. As far as I have seen when people run experiments with blind tasting there is no difference between pre-searing + post-searing and post-searing alone.

I read that article over a year ago, and do not agree. I can definitely taste the difference between a 2 inch thick filet mignon that has been pre charred and cooked for 4 hours vs one that has not been pre charred. Anybody that know how to cook will tell you the best part of a sauce or gravy is the brown bits that get deglazed in the pan, when you char a steak and vacuum seal it, your basicly letting the steaks natural juices mix with those charred bits and marinate the steak as it cooks.

If you have not done a blind tasting, you don't really know. I believed the same as you until we did a blind tasting. No one believes they are biased by knowing what is what, but we seem to be more influenced than we admit by our expectations.

[FeChef]

There is too many variables in that article. Im using a more tender, but less beefy flavored cut of meat. Im also using a thicker cut of 2" and cooking for a longer duration. Im also not using any herbs or spices, just natural flavorings from the charred fat and the natural juices. A blind person with no taste buds could tell the difference.

[Syzygies]

If you have not done a blind tasting, you don't really know. I believed the same as you until we did a blind tasting. No one believes they are biased by knowing what is what, but we seem to be more influenced than we admit by our expectations.

By training I'm sensitive to ways people trick themselves into creating and believing dogma; that's my second order bias system, and I'm aware that it could be misleading me here.

The reason people don't braise first, sous vide in restaurants, is because the heat will foul the chamber vacuum machine.

My one brush with "professional" cooking classes was the most convention-riddled experience of my life. People can turn the accident of this equipment limitation into a commandment carried down from some hill. I'm all for modernist thinking, but anything that flies in the face of hundreds of years of perceptive tradition has to be examined really closely. (*)

There's a common arrogance that holds that individual chefs can have deeper insights that entire nations. I don't buy it; I've been around geniuses and they're as smart as twenty people, but not millions of people. So why does classic braise technique sear first? If adapting to the limitations of chamber vacuum machines happens to be the right answer and everyone for centuries before got it wrong, that's rather lucky.

That said, I try it both ways and I haven't made up my mind yet. It is rather convenient to cook sous vide straight from the freezer, stopping home for five minutes on a Tuesday afternoon.

(*) The founding of the Guggenheim Museum makes a great object lesson. A new generation of rich were jealous of a previous generation snapping up impressionist art for a song, and wanted their thing. They latched onto a severely restrictive definition of abstract art, and bought all these early blotches on a wall. Meanwhile, Matisse was far more successfully painting nearly representational works that veered into the wilds of abstraction, teasing the interface between the two. As modernists, we don't want to throw out the past.

[pbear]

So why does classic braise technique sear first?

Tradition? And not necessarily the best technique. Mexican carntias and Filipino adobo typically are browned after braising, not before. Indeed, I've been using the sear-after-braising method for years, based on those precedents, long before I tumbled to low temp cooking.

[nickrey]

By my training as a psychologist I know that expectations of outcome can swamp anything else.

White wine dyed red tastes like red wine.

Chips eaten with an amplified crunch in your ears taste fresher.

You expect the pre-searing to give a better result and voila there it is.

There's a reason why blind tasting is conducted. It is to remove biased expectations. Give me a controlled study over an opinion or "conventional wisdom" any day when we are discussing issues such as this.

Edited by nickrey, 09 January 2013 - 02:18 AM.

[rotuts]

however, fooling one self sometimes counts for a lot!

sort of how you arrange the food on the plate makes a difference on both the taste and the total experience.

why we taste and like different things even if tricked counts for something!

[FeChef]

however, fooling one self sometimes counts for a lot!

sort of how you arrange the food on the plate makes a difference on both the taste and the total experience.

why we taste and like different things even if tricked counts for something!

This holds true, especially in a sandwich with multiple flavors. Layering meats in specific order can change taste just by what flavor hits your tastebuds first. But i guess thats just my mind tricking me aswell.

[Syzygies]

Correct. Dave Arnold and the Cooking Issues team found a definite improvement by presearing.

Do you have a link? All I could find was this episode:

http://www.heritager...-3-Harold-McGee

They discuss preheating to inhibit lactic acid bacteria, but no blind taste tests comparing searing methods.

By my training as a psychologist I know that expectations of outcome can swamp anything else.

Another "expectation of outcome" effect: A young scientist needs to believe at least a little bit that they're smarter than 500 years of predecessors, to make progress. At least they're aware part of the time that progress doesn't work that way. When a modern chef dismisses "tradition", I wonder if they're giving someone like Fernand Point credit for being more than a country yokel.

Democratic blind taste tests are a slippery slope; they presume that we're all equally perceptive. I've met wine tasters who can match up a dozen wines blind after a four hour break; I can't come close. In chess one learns not to play one's opponent for a fool. Is it right to tune cooking step by step by what an average person can taste? This denies the possibility of an ensemble effect.

In audio circles there's the notion of a "golden ear"; on DIY forums one knows the best ears within driving distance willing to critique your new design. People debate whether one can hear the differences in new digital standards; the consensus is that most people can't hear the difference between sampling rates of 96kHz and 192kHz. Nevertheless, the most gifted sound board engineer can tell the difference between 96kHz and a live feed, but can't tell the difference between 192kHz and a live feed. There is some evidence that music sounds better with intact high frequency overtones that listeners can't detect in isolation.

Barb Stuckey's Taste What You're Missing describes large variations in taste sensitivity, with "hypertasters" at one extreme. In my world view, a chef like Thomas Keller works harder than most people with his gifts, has unusual manual dexterity, and is a hypertaster to boot. I might flunk individual steps that he can distinguish, and still appreciate an ensemble effect when he's done.