84 replies to this topic

[Qwerty]

You say you aren't upset, yet still called the parking enforcement/towing company in an effort to get revenge on a guy who just wanted to take a pee in your bathroom? Doesn't add up. I somehow doubt you were doing some sort of civic duty, otherwise your parking surveillance would be a full time job. You keep an eye on all cars parked outside your door? Or just the ones from people who pissed you off? Honestly, I think that says more about you and your state of mind about the issue than anything else.

Like I said, I think you should change your thinking on this issue. Just look at everyone who walks through the door as a potential customer, whether or not they intend to buy or not. I don't think that most places that sell goods would mind more foot traffic. I doubt car dealerships are chasing people off their lot because they are just browsing with no intent to buy--because they know that someday in the future those people will most likely need to buy a car.

Obviously its up to you to decide how to run your business. If you feel that being rude to customers and getting their cars towed is good for business, more power to you. Me, I wouldn't want the potential bad juju...the less people you have out there bad mouthing your establishment, the better. If the price is to let the occasional customer pee for free, I'd see that as an even trade. You could even think of it as advertising...I assume they have to walk through your store, past all the pastries and chocolates, to get to the restroom. That is just more people who get a look at your display case.

He knew that washrooms were for customer use only, but was too cheap to buy something.

How did he know that? Did you tell him? if you told him, doesn't that mean he asked? Didn't you say earlier that you never refuse someone who asks? Again, I don't understand why you seem unable to let it go.

Do you think he would actually come back? He knew he embarassed himself and made himself look like a cheap a-hole. Do you actually think he would have the kahunas to come back and buy something at a latter date? It's a question I'm pretty sure you won't answer.

Well, it's a question I can't answer. Who knows--my crystal ball is cloudy today. Maybe he wouldn't come back, but at the very least, he's probably not venting to the neighbors and everyone else he knows what a jerk the owner of that little coffee shop is.

If someone parks their vehicle underneath a sign that states 1 hr parking and camps out for a whole afternoon, it is their business. Some of the stupidist things I've seen are very angry people arguing with traffic cops or tow truck drivers about parking signs. Many merchants along the street call the city to ticket when cars are camped out for whole afternoons--it really screws up the parking for other customers. I did not identify myself when I called him up, just told him his car was being towed.

Don't know what to say here. If you are using the old "other people do it" line to justify why you feel the need to get back at this person, I can't help you. Seems petty to me.

[JeanneCake]

This is getting a little past the point of how does a business owner manage the use of bathrooms. I don't think EdwardJ went overboard by calling about someone parked illegally. They are two separate issues connected by the use of a bathroom earlier in the week by a guy who just needed to use the facility but didn't want to buy anything. He wasn't a customer. I see a lot of "bathrooms for customers only" signs especially in downtown shopping areas with individual storefronts. A store is open for business, and they're not selling free bathroom time. I am a small business owner myself; I appreciate that people have choices about where they buy the kind of goods I'm selling. Customers are fickle, one day they love you and the next they don't. More often, it's about the price of the goods and how much money they think the goods are worth. But this is beside the point.

The illegal parking is a completely separate issue. The guy parked his car and left it for more than the posted time, and the guy was taking a chance he wouldn't get ticketed or towed. He got towed. That's the consequence for illegal parking. The fact that it happened to be EdwardJ who reported the illegally parked car is just icing on the cake depending on how you think karma was working that day.

[Edward J]

Ah, qwerty, thank you for taking the time to write such a long post.

1) Guy knew washrooms were for customer use only, because he said he'd get something after using it. I believe I said this in my post.

2)Why was I a jerk? The guy was obviously trying to weasel out of buying something when he said he would. I gave him a way out and he took it,(without putting any change into the tip jar...) is that being a jerk?

3)Yes, many merchants including myself and even my church and kid's schools will call the city to have cars towed when they need to. So, yes you are right, everyone does it.

For me, when I advertise , I like to promote my products and service. Everyone who walks into a store sees what they want to see. Mr Realtor only saw a bathroom,because that's all he wanted to see. One of my biggest sources of amusement is with some of my "regs", the ones who come in all the time for coffee. It is only when they come into the store with a friend or child that the other sees a 6' display case of pralines and a 8' display wall of chocolate figurines and bars. The reg's eyes pop open, "When did you start selling this stuff?" they ask.

[cdh]

Wow. Just wow. Glad I'm on the other side of the continent from this coffee shop.

[Edward J]

Exactly my point.
It isn't a "coffee shop". I sell artisan chocoaltes and psstries.

See what you want to see, read what you want to read.

[Qwerty]

Ah, qwerty, thank you for taking the time to write such a long post.

1) Guy knew washrooms were for customer use only, because he said he'd get something after using it. I believe I said this in my post.

2)Why was I a jerk? The guy was obviously trying to weasel out of buying something when he said he would. I gave him a way out and he took it,(without putting any change into the tip jar...) is that being a jerk?

3)Yes, many merchants including myself and even my church and kid's schools will call the city to have cars towed when they need to. So, yes you are right, everyone does it.

For me, when I advertise , I like to promote my products and service. Everyone who walks into a store sees what they want to see. Mr Realtor only saw a bathroom,because that's all he wanted to see. One of my biggest sources of amusement is with some of my "regs", the ones who come in all the time for coffee. It is only when they come into the store with a friend or child that the other sees a 6' display case of pralines and a 8' display wall of chocolate figurines and bars. The reg's eyes pop open, "When did you start selling this stuff?" they ask.

Hey no problem. You did solicit opinions, did you not? Sorry I couldn't provide you with validation for your actions.

Again, how you run your chocolate and pastry shop (with coffee) is your own choice. You seem intent on being defensive and trying to justify your behavior instead of taking some advice (that you asked for, again) and maybe gleaning some insight into how you could improve your customer relations. The fact that your snark and rudeness is probably effecting your business more that letting people use the restroom seems to fall on deaf ears. I hope, for your sake, that you make really good chocolates and pastries.

It's easy to be nice to people who are nice to you. Being nice to the ones who aren't...that's customer service.

I'm tired of beating this horse...I've said all I can. Good luck man.

[Lupinus]

I'm of the opinion that if you open your establishment up to the general public, you've opened your establishment up to the general public. So I don't see someone coming in just to you the restroom as all that different from a window shopper with zero intention of buying anything or someone that hops in to get out of the rain.

[Edward J]

It's a pity that merchants don't share this opinion.

Surely you, and every one on this forum have been asked at one time or another to buy some thing or leave*? Yes, merchants do have that right.

*(ie browsing in the magazine section for 20 mins while waiting for a bus or ducking out of the rain?)

[ElaineK]

It's a pity that merchants don't share this opinion.

Surely you, and every one on this forum have been asked at one time or another to buy some thing or leave*? Yes, merchants do have that right.

*(ie browsing in the magazine section for 20 mins while waiting for a bus or ducking out of the rain?)

Nope, never have. And I'm a lingerer in those circumstances. I wouldn't particularly dispute their right to do so, and would do one or the other (which depending on exactly how that demand was presented) reasonably cheerfully.

My local bookstore does have a sign saying that the restroom is for customers only, but they've assured me that I count as a customer, even if I don't buy anything on that visit. It's not uncommon for us to pop in long enough for my daughter or I to use the restroom and her to play with the train table for a few minutes, then we go on with our errands. It's also not uncommon for me to wander and browse aimlessly for 30 minutes, decide I don't really need any new books today, and go on my way. They are every bit as gracious in both of those circumstances as they are when I walk out with my arms full of books and games.

If it happened that they insisted I purchase something for using the restroom, or made a fuss about it being for customers only, I'd buy something small. I would probably also hold an unconscious grudge. Not that they'd done anything wrong, but that I'd be vaguely uncomfortable returning. As it is, book-buying trips usually follow a couple of days after non-buying trips as things from display tables percolate through my head, or the kid starts "Mom, I need new books, I'm tired of all my old ones!"

[munchymom]

It's a pity that merchants don't share this opinion.

Surely you, and every one on this forum have been asked at one time or another to buy some thing or leave*? Yes, merchants do have that right.

*(ie browsing in the magazine section for 20 mins while waiting for a bus or ducking out of the rain?)

I never have been asked to leave a store while browsing - ever - and while I agree that a merchant is within his rights to ask this... well, I wouldn't go back. I'm wondering whether there's some kind of deep cultural divide on this issue, because I can't imagine a small retailer doing that around here. I agree with Lupinus that open to the public means just that. You're there - the store is open - what does it cost to let someone look around?

[Edward J]

This thread has gone on much longer than I intended, but I welcome all the replies.

So, the thread was about how to handle people who use washrooms and then walk out. It's quite a common problem and I listed the approaches other merchants have taken. (keys at the counter, "no public washroom" signs, or, in Starbuck's case electric apartment-building style buzzers) From your replies, I have refrained from using these approaches. But as I have said already, the problem exists, it's just that many don't think it a problem, and many merchants don't really bring up the subject.

Although I have been cooking and baking professionally for close to 30 years now, and in 3 continents, I feel I have a different perspective than most e-gulleters. It's not the cooking perspective,(there are many here who have much more experience on things like sous-vide and m.g.) but rather the perspective from a food establishment owner/manager. I don't find much of this perspective in many of the threads on this forum since joining several years ago.

In any case it is a different perspective, some might take issue with it, some might find it refreshing, and then there's also the big hope that some might use it to think differently.........

[ScoopKW]

So, the thread was about how to handle people who use washrooms and then walk out. It's quite a common problem and I listed the approaches other merchants have taken.

I think your first and main mistake is considering someone walking into your shop to be a problem. (Unless they're walking in with a flamethrower. That's a problem. Someone in need of a toilet is NOT a problem.)

You see a problem. I see an opportunity. Post your specials on a corkboard in the bathroom. Put a stack of coupons near the towel dispenser. "As a reward for washing your hands, here's a coupon for a free coffee with the purchase of a dozen of our wonderful chocolates." (Or something similar.)

You have people walking into your shop, man. Don't insult them. SELL THEM SOMETHING. And do so in a way where they get a chuckle out of it. You're squandering opportunity every day.

My only exception would be if these people were junkies using your bathroom as a shooting gallery. Then call the police. But someone who just needs to use the toilet? Figure out a way to turn these people in to loyal customers. The ones you don't reach, that's just part of doing business.

[tonyrocks922]

It's a pity that merchants don't share this opinion.

Surely you, and every one on this forum have been asked at one time or another to buy some thing or leave*? Yes, merchants do have that right.

*(ie browsing in the magazine section for 20 mins while waiting for a bus or ducking out of the rain?)

Where on earth do you live that browsers aren't welcome in stores? You have a pretty pathetic attitude and I'm sure it's come across to customers and potential customers and cost you more business than you realize.

[HungryC]

It's a pity that merchants don't share this opinion.

Surely you, and every one on this forum have been asked at one time or another to buy some thing or leave*? Yes, merchants do have that right.

*(ie browsing in the magazine section for 20 mins while waiting for a bus or ducking out of the rain?)

The only places I've ever seen such aggressive, buy-something-or-leave enforcement has been in the 'hood, where small shopkeepers can be plagued with crackhead shoplifters and are usually suspicious of everyone who's not moving quickly. In the worst neighborhoods, the corner stores keep everything behind bulletproof plexiglass, and you have to ask for what you want and pay for it through a rotating, plastic chute. (not the best setting for a chocolate shop, but kudos to you for trying if you are indeed operating a patisserie in a massively crime-ridden inner city area.)

In more, ahem, "genteel" surroundings, you'd probably run off all of your customers if you discouraged browsing. And chasing people away in this fashion often leads to charges of profiling or discrimination, whether it is intentional or not.

[Mjx]

It's a pity that merchants don't share this opinion.

Surely you, and every one on this forum have been asked at one time or another to buy some thing or leave*? Yes, merchants do have that right.

*(ie browsing in the magazine section for 20 mins while waiting for a bus or ducking out of the rain?)

The only places I've ever seen such aggressive, buy-something-or-leave enforcement has been in the 'hood, where small shopkeepers can be plagued with crackhead shoplifters and are usually suspicious of everyone who's not moving quickly. In the worst neighborhoods, the corner stores keep everything behind bulletproof plexiglass, and you have to ask for what you want and pay for it through a rotating, plastic chute. (not the best setting for a chocolate shop, but kudos to you for trying if you are indeed operating a patisserie in a massively crime-ridden inner city area.)

In more, ahem, "genteel" surroundings, you'd probably run off all of your customers if you discouraged browsing. And chasing people away in this fashion often leads to charges of profiling or discrimination, whether it is intentional or not.

Actually, I've been asked quite pointedly whether I was planning on buying something, while browsing in book shops. Usually, by grouchy old men, with whom I ended up having great conversations, even after I admitted I was just browsing and got sucked into a book.

This facet of the discussion seems to be getting a bit overwrought; upthread, Edward J mentioned he had no problem with people who asked. And it seems reasonable to assume that someone who is polite enough to ask may also be less likely to pee all over the place, and nick the bog roll.

I just don't get the whole 'I have a right' thing, with public loos; it's a favour, not a right.

And there are chefs out there, wearing orange clogs in public, so surely we have something more serious to get our knickers in a twist over!

[ScoopKW]

I just don't get the whole 'I have a right' thing, with public loos; it's a favour, not a right.

In the US (I realize that many thread participants are not Americans), most cities have statute in place that businesses which provide food or drink must have a public restroom. Some go even further that a business that is open to the public will provide a restroom.

So, for a lot of people here, it's not a favor.

As an aside, I know people who own McDonald's franchises. When he was still alive, Ray Kroc would head straight to the bathroom when inspecting a McDonald's. If it wasn't clean. He'd clean it himself. And then he'd dress down the franchisee for offering the public a dirty bathroom.



PS -- Perhaps our philosophy on public restrooms is different than the rest of the world's. My travel experience bears that out. Kind of like tipping. We have different expectations here.

[Mjx]

I just don't get the whole 'I have a right' thing, with public loos; it's a favour, not a right.

In the US (I realize that many thread participants are not Americans), most cities have statute in place that businesses which provide food or drink must have a public restroom. Some go even further that a business that is open to the public will provide a restroom.

So, for a lot of people here, it's not a favor.

Even if it's legally enforced, it still amounts to a favour; legislation doesn't automatically mean something is a basic human right (or vice versa). And what everyone who's ever managed to urinate in the sink seems to disregard is that every right is implicitly tied to a responsibility (which is unfortunately seldom legislated, making it awfully easy to exploit the rights).

As an aside, I know people who own McDonald's franchises. When he was still alive, Ray Kroc would head straight to the bathroom when inspecting a McDonald's. If it wasn't clean. He'd clean it himself. And then he'd dress down the franchisee for offering the public a dirty bathroom.

I'd bet (and I'm not a betting person) that the filthiest toilets were those most used by the general public, beyond just that portion of the public that fell into the 'customer' category.

You've worked in the industry, so you've probably had more chance than you ever wanted to observe that people can be incredible pigs, and the worst tend to be those who feel that everything they want is a 'right'.

PS -- Perhaps our philosophy on public restrooms is different than the rest of the world's. My travel experience bears that out. . . .

My experience outside the US as an adult is limited to Europe. Speaking for those parts of Italy, Germany, and Denmark in which I've spent between a month and several years, I'd have to say that availability and conditions in public toilets aren't significantly different in these EU countries than from what you find in the US (and I have no idea of the legislation in any of these places): Most big shops have public toilets, you can use the ones in most places that serve food (unless it's just take-away), an even if they're officially for staff only if you ask to use the loo, they'll usually say 'Sure.' Occasionally, 'No', but that's happened in the US, too.

And, the loos that are most open to the public are the most disgusting, as though their being readily available somehow incites the users' contempt (yep, I mean in the US, too).

This seems to put shop/restaurant owners in something of a cleft stick: So, you have to open your loo to the public, who make it disgusting and unsanitary, therefore you have to keep a constant eye on the state of the room, and clean up the mess, or the Dept. of Health guys come down on you like a ton of bricks. If the people responsible for turning the place into a sty aren't even customers, they're costing you a bunch in cleaning material (not to mention, I've had a couple of near-falls--and one actualy fall that left me with a sprained wrist--in places where the bathroom floor was wet and slick; if I was elderly/had broken something I would almost certainly have sued).

[ScoopKW]

Even if it's legally enforced, it still amounts to a favour

No, if it's enforced, then it is no longer a "favor." It is a requirement to do business in the municipality which enacted the law. You want to do business in our city? Great! Then you WILL provide a clean bathroom to the public. Not just your customers. Everyone who walks in needing a restroom. Otherwise, find someplace else to do business. And we have code enforcement officers that will shut your business down if you try to skirt the law. Restrict bathroom usage at your peril, business owners. (Well, at least where I live. Not every city feels the same way.)


EDIT -- As for "dirty public bathrooms," please by all means visit Las Vegas. Enjoy our public facilities. All the restrooms are public restrooms. And if they're not SPOTLESS, then casino management wants to know about that. We'd be horrified to discover we offered a guest a bathroom that didn't surpass their every expectation.

Edited by ScoopKW, 03 May 2012 - 02:39 AM.

[Mjx]

Even if it's legally enforced, it still amounts to a favour

No, if it's enforced, then it is no longer a "favor." It is a requirement to do business in the municipality which enacted the law. You want to do business in our city? Great! Then you WILL provide a clean bathroom to the public. Not just your customers. Everyone who walks in needing a restroom. Otherwise, find someplace else to do business. And we have code enforcement officers that will shut your business down if you try to skirt the law. Restrict bathroom usage at your peril, business owners. (Well, at least where I live. Not every city feels the same way.)


EDIT -- As for "dirty public bathrooms," please by all means visit Las Vegas. Enjoy our public facilities. All the restrooms are public restrooms. And if they're not SPOTLESS, then casino management wants to know about that. We'd be horrified to discover we offered a guest a bathroom that didn't surpass their every expectation.

Leaving aside the fact that you hacked off the portion of what I said that elaborated on what I meant, and dismissed most of the points I made, you're talking about one city on the planet (a rather unusual one, from what I understand, and thanks, but I doubt I'll be visiting, I'm not big on hot, sunny places ).

But surely you aren't saying that you placidly accept that the public will behave irresponsibly in public restrooms, and that this does not present a problem (not necessarily a cheap one, either)?
That the entire issue of who uses an establishment's restroom, and the state in which they leave it is irrelevant? That the cost of the combination of even a small fraction of the public being disgusting + owners of public restrooms needing to keep these spaces clean is not a cost issue?
Does it really seem that unreasonable that some business owners have reservations about people who are not customers doing whatever they will in the bathroom (and since the door is shut, that's what it comes down to), given what it could cost them?

[heidih]

You would think that a coffee house should have a restroom. I used to hang out and sip coffee at a Starbucks just down the road from LAX and they had no restroom for patrons. Their standard answer was to direct patrons to the supermarket across the parking lot. I don't even care for Starbucks, so I have found another strategy to while away the time waiting for a flight arrival.

I too have used restrooms without purchasing when on the road. It may be faulty illogical thinking, but I only do it at major chains, not small shops like the original poster is referring to. I suppose I feel that it is less of a financial burden on them; or maybe that over my lifetime I have probably patronized "x" chain several times?

[ScoopKW]

Leaving aside the fact that you hacked off the portion of what I said that elaborated on what I meant, and dismissed most of the points I made, you're talking about one city on the planet (a rather unusual one, from what I understand, and thanks, but I doubt I'll be visiting, I'm not big on hot, sunny places ).

But surely you aren't saying that you placidly accept that the public will behave irresponsibly in public restrooms, and that this does not present a problem (not necessarily a cheap one, either)?
That the entire issue of who uses an establishment's restroom, and the state in which they leave it is irrelevant? That the cost of the combination of even a small fraction of the public being disgusting + owners of public restrooms needing to keep these spaces clean is not a cost issue?
Does it really seem that unreasonable that some business owners have reservations about people who are not customers doing whatever they will in the bathroom (and since the door is shut, that's what it comes down to), given what it could cost them?

I dislike quoting an entire post. I think people are smart enough to go back and read a post that is on the same page, if necessary. I tend to quote enough to jog people's memory. But I digress.

The reason people "behave irresponsibly" in restrooms is because that restroom is dirty in the first place. If the restroom was clean, they wouldn't resort to "bathroom gymnastics" trying to void without touching anything. That just adds to the mess. The problem is business owners who think they're too good to clean a toilet.

And Las Vegas is NOT the only place that takes public restroom seriously. Just about every tourist town in America does. I've lived exclusively in tourist towns. And providing a clean bathroom is just part of the cost of doing business. Checking the bathroom every hour or so is just part of the job responsibilities. If someone doesn't want to clean restrooms, that person shouldn't be in the service industry.

Take a road trip across the United States sometime. Every few miles you will see a billboard for some business up ahead -- a gas station, a restaurant, a gift shop. They will extol the cleanliness of their restrooms to entice people to pull over than stop there. And some people will stop. And go. And then leave without buying anything. And that's just how it is.

[tikidoc]

The reason people "behave irresponsibly" in restrooms is because that restroom is dirty in the first place. If the restroom was clean, they wouldn't resort to "bathroom gymnastics" trying to void without touching anything. That just adds to the mess. The problem is business owners who think they're too good to clean a toilet.

Seriously? You think that people only make messes in bathrooms that are already dirty? That's nuts.

[Edward J]

Mickey D's washrooms get vandalized regularily, as with many other chains, not to mention the gawd-awfull messes many leave behind. These get cleaned on a hourly or bi-hourly basis.

One of my observations on human behavior is that if anything is free or underprioced it will be treated with scorn and contempt.

[ScoopKW]

The reason people "behave irresponsibly" in restrooms is because that restroom is dirty in the first place. If the restroom was clean, they wouldn't resort to "bathroom gymnastics" trying to void without touching anything. That just adds to the mess. The problem is business owners who think they're too good to clean a toilet.

Seriously? You think that people only make messes in bathrooms that are already dirty? That's nuts.

No, but I think normal people who wouldn't dare foul a clean bathroom will foul a dirty one because they don't want to come in contact with previously fouled surfaces. They attempt the "squat over the toilet without touching it" thing, with varying degrees of success. As with most things, it's easier to keep something clean than it is to clean it after it's been seriously polluted.

I've visited many, many countries. And the worst bathrooms have been in Europe for some reason. Can't really speak to why. But that's just how it's been.

[Mjx]

The reason people "behave irresponsibly" in restrooms is because that restroom is dirty in the first place. If the restroom was clean, they wouldn't resort to "bathroom gymnastics" trying to void without touching anything. That just adds to the mess. The problem is business owners who think they're too good to clean a toilet.

Seriously? You think that people only make messes in bathrooms that are already dirty? That's nuts.

Have to agree with that.

All you have to do is go into the rest rooms in Barnes & Noble, for example, over the course of a day a day, and you can see how things go: When they open they're clean; after about an hour, at least one stall will be nasty.
They're big shops, and have dedicated cleaning staff, but a small concern isn't necessarily going to be able to even check after every customer (pretty much what you have to do, to stay on top of things), let alone clean constantly. If you have customers, you're serving them, although if the only people who come in are not customers, you would have plenty of time to pop your head in the door and see how poor their aim was... and then, I don't know, run after them and call them swine? Nod, smmile to yourself and think, 'Well, I'm sure glad he came in and pissed on next to the toilet, I'll bet next time he stops in he'll buy something'?