Jump to content


Welcome to the eG Forums!

These forums are a service of the Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, a 501c3 nonprofit organization dedicated to advancement of the culinary arts. Anyone can read the forums, however if you would like to participate in active discussions please join the Society.

Photo

Cooking with "Stir-frying to the Sky's Edge" (Grace Young)

Chinese Cookbook

  • Please log in to reply
59 replies to this topic

#31 Ben Hong

Ben Hong
  • participating member
  • 1,383 posts

Posted 26 November 2010 - 11:07 PM

The beauty of Chinese cuisine lies in its flexibility and its openness to being adapted to individual interpretations. Individual cooks can and will do things slightly different than another person to produce the same dish, as long as he does not stray too far from the original recipe. For example, beef and broccoli is still beef and broccoli if you use a dash of soy sauce, a pinch of sugar and a smidgen of msg in place of a missing oyster sauce. My point is not to slavishly follow one author or another's recipes just so you can call the resultant dish authentic.

Having said that, Grace Young's recipes are not my recipes, nor are they exactly the same as those of some of my "homeys" from my village region.I find that Young sometimes plays loose, and sometimes rather fast, with some of her interpretations of "standard" recipes, as familiar as they seem to be. Come on, sesame oil is very very rarely used, if at all, by home cooks of Toysan. Cumin? Ya gots to be kidding! I don't believe that her friends and relatives use those recipes when they are cooking for family (they are Toysanese I believe), and all that "dressing" up is gilding the recipes to make it look more complicated than it is (or should be)...inscrutable?

BTW, the Cantonese term for oil blanching is goh yau, or "pass through the oil", and make that oil hot please, else the meat, fowl or fish would be oil soaked.

#32 Prawncrackers

Prawncrackers
  • participating member
  • 1,157 posts
  • Location:Birmingham, UK

Posted 28 November 2010 - 01:30 PM

BUT, that being said, are you only serving these dishes alone with rice? Because a dish like that might shine in a meal where you're serving a soup, a spicy dish, a braise, and maybe a pickle alongside. It's more of a counterpoint dish, isn't it? For two people, that's too much, but when I stir-fry dinner I always have a separate green or other veg and a pickle on the table as well, so I can take advantage of the contrasts. A plainer dish like that I'd pair with a spicy daikon pickle and maybe a soft vegetable? Braised pumpkin, say.

Just reading this thread for the first time and I'm surprised no one has followed up on this very good point. In fact I think it's a fundamental point. Personally I don't know any Chinese person who would cook just one of these dishes to eat solely with plain rice. Dishes like these would always be served alongside several others. The last dish of Stir-fried ginger beef looks lovely, if I was cooking it for my wife and I then I would have some veg with it too or maybe stir-fried prawns with broccoli. If there were more people, then I would steam a fish and poach a chicken too. But never would I eat a stir-fried dish like that on it's own with rice, are Erin and I alone here?

#33 Chris Hennes

Chris Hennes

    Director of Operations

  • manager
  • 8,159 posts
  • Location:Norman, Oklahoma

Posted 28 November 2010 - 02:28 PM

Admittedly I do sometimes serve just the stir fry with rice, especially when the stir fry incorporates roughly equal amounts of protein and vegetables. In the case of something like that ginger beef, however, I served it with a side of snap peas (you can just see one peaking into the frame in the lower left). I haven't been discussing or showing them because I'm not using recipes from the book in those cases.

Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org


#34 mbhank

mbhank
  • participating member
  • 143 posts
  • Location:Torrance, CA

Posted 28 November 2010 - 03:15 PM

I agree with Ben Hong. This is the only Chinese cookbook I have seen which uses cumin in a recipe. It stood out to me because I cannot stand neither the taste nor the smell of cumin. Between "Stir Frying To The Shy's Edge" and "The Breath of the Wok" I think the latter may be the better book.

The recipes in "Breath..." may be a bit more authentic, made mainly by her family and friends.
'A person's integrity is never more tested than when he has power over a voiceless creature.' A C Grayling.

#35 nakji

nakji
  • eGullet Society staff emeritus
  • 3,659 posts
  • Location:Shanghai

Posted 28 November 2010 - 03:50 PM

I agree with Ben Hong. This is the only Chinese cookbook I have seen which uses cumin in a recipe. It stood out to me because I cannot stand neither the taste nor the smell of cumin. Between "Stir Frying To The Shy's Edge" and "The Breath of the Wok" I think the latter may be the better book.

The recipes in "Breath..." may be a bit more authentic, made mainly by her family and friends.


I think cumin is plenty authentic, although I've usually seen it paired with beef or lamb, as I pointed out.

#36 Chris Hennes

Chris Hennes

    Director of Operations

  • manager
  • 8,159 posts
  • Location:Norman, Oklahoma

Posted 28 November 2010 - 05:59 PM

Vinegar-Glazed Chicken (p. 136)
Stir-Fried bean Sprouts with Chili Bean Sauce (p. 200)

As luck would have it, Prawncrackers, tonight's meal plan did in fact include two recipes from the book: good timing! Well, sort of good timing, as the bean sprouts were a bit past their prime. I bought them yesterday and meant to use them last night, but didn't end up stir-frying for dinner. I also, for no apparent reason, purchased soy bean sprouts instead of normal (mung?) sprouts. So I won't say much about that recipe since I was not pleased with the ingredients. The vinegar-glazed chicken has a pretty heavy dose of Sichuan peppercorns, which I love the flavor of. I find that I can't seem to grind them fine enough to completely eliminate a slightly gritty texture, however. Is this normal, or do I need to try harder with my grinding? Also, this dish is finished with a Chinkiang vinegar glaze, but I'm not really that fond of the vinegar I have on hand. I think I just chose it at random from the available brands: what are the brands I should be seeking out?

Vinegar-Glazed Chicken.jpg

Stir-Fried Bean Sprouts with Chili Bean Sauce.jpg

Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org


#37 hzrt8w

hzrt8w
  • eGullet Society staff emeritus
  • 3,855 posts
  • Location:Sacramento, CA

Posted 28 November 2010 - 07:05 PM

... The vinegar-glazed chicken has a pretty heavy dose of Sichuan peppercorns,
.....


Which Chinese style(s) are those recipes in her book, Chris? It seems to me, such as this one, it is Cantonese yet not quite Cantonese, Sichuanese yet not quite Sichuanese. Are those all the author's own creations?

Sichuan peppercorn: The most potent ones are stored in whole, and relatively fresh. The numbing effect degrades over time in storage. Ground powders retain less potentness than the whole spices. I suppose you can buy and use the ground Sichuan peppercorn if you don't like the grits.

Bean sprouts: if you have the soy-bean sprouts but the recipe calls for the mung-bean sprouts... just clip off the heads (the bean) and use the stems. The stems taste no different. :)
W.K. Leung ("Ah Leung") aka "hzrt8w"

#38 hzrt8w

hzrt8w
  • eGullet Society staff emeritus
  • 3,855 posts
  • Location:Sacramento, CA

Posted 28 November 2010 - 07:15 PM

..... But never would I eat a stir-fried dish like that on it's own with rice, are Erin and I alone here?


I think it depends on the family situation (or dining situation).

I cook for myself and my wife. No kid. So it is quite common to have only one stir-fried dish for dinner. Though I typically like to make some vegetable stir-fries (only salt and garlic).

If the dinner party is any bigger, I would make 2 to 4 dishes.

The cook of the family may make more, as an everyday affair, if the family size is bigger... e.g. 4 to 6 dishes or more. But... typically... wouldn't be all stir-fries. Likely some will be steamed dishes, some braised dishes, some cold-appetizers, or some BBQ items (chopped chicken, BBQ pork, roast pork, etc..) The reason is to try to have all the dishes ready at the same time. If you have to stir-fry 6 dishes, by the time the 6th dish is done, the first one is already cold.
W.K. Leung ("Ah Leung") aka "hzrt8w"

#39 Chris Hennes

Chris Hennes

    Director of Operations

  • manager
  • 8,159 posts
  • Location:Norman, Oklahoma

Posted 28 November 2010 - 07:15 PM

Which Chinese style(s) are those recipes in her book, Chris? It seems to me, such as this one, it is Cantonese yet not quite Cantonese, Sichuanese yet not quite Sichuanese. Are those all the author's own creations?

From the dish description:

This is a typical Hunan family-style stir-fry. Traditionally this dish is made with dried red chilies, but this recipe has been simplified with the use of red pepper flakes.

(I'm not sure how that substitution really simplifies anything, but OK) It's funny, I bought the book and have been cooking from it because I am skeptical that any of the so-called "Chinese food" available to me here in Oklahoma, USA is even remotely Chinese. But it sounds like I'm not really getting any closer with these recipes.

Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org


#40 ScottyBoy

ScottyBoy
  • society donor
  • 1,254 posts
  • Location:United States

Posted 28 November 2010 - 07:30 PM

Just opened this thread and was going to compliment your blade work, till I read the next few posts :wink:

Everything looks delicious.
Sleep, bike, cook, feed, repeat...
Oakland, CA
My Place
My eGullet Foodblog
eG Ethics Signatory

#41 Shalmanese

Shalmanese
  • participating member
  • 3,469 posts
  • Location:San Francisco

Posted 28 November 2010 - 09:42 PM

I find that I can't seem to grind them fine enough to completely eliminate a slightly gritty texture, however.


Grind and then run through a fine meshed sieve. You'll find that the grit comes from the hard husks which contribute nothing to the flavor. I normally grind ~6 months worth of peppercorns at once and keep the rest whole. Also, toast before you grind for deeper flavor.
PS: I am a guy.

#42 sheetz

sheetz
  • participating member
  • 824 posts

Posted 28 November 2010 - 11:21 PM

I've only glanced through Young's "Breath" book, but I don't know if I'd necessarily call the recipes contained within "authentic" in that they don't necessarily represent what you'd actually find in China. Rather, I think the book does pretty well to give a sense of the type of the homestyle cooking found in the Toisanese immigrant communities in America.

I have no idea what type of cooking the recipes in "Sky's Edge" are supposed to represent, but cumin is something that you'd never find a Toisan/Cantonese kitchen.

Edited by sheetz, 28 November 2010 - 11:22 PM.


#43 jsager01

jsager01
  • participating member
  • 112 posts

Posted 29 November 2010 - 05:17 AM

I find that I can't seem to grind them fine enough to completely eliminate a slightly gritty texture, however.


Grind and then run through a fine meshed sieve. You'll find that the grit comes from the hard husks which contribute nothing to the flavor. I normally grind ~6 months worth of peppercorns at once and keep the rest whole. Also, toast before you grind for deeper flavor.


I think you have got it the other way round, the grittiness does not come 'from the hard husks which contribute nothing to the flavor'. From what i understand and from my own experience, the 'husk' (which is not hard or at least when compared to the seed) is where almost all the flavor is. The shiny black and very hard little seeds contribute very little to the flavor (and some would even claim it contributes an undesirable bitterness). The seeds together with the pieces of prickly stem leftovers, are what causes the grittiness.

Some 'fanatics' of Sichuan Peppercorn would insist that the seeds should be removed before use. For anyone with all the patience, or access to slave-wage help :-), this can done by hand, one peppercorn at a time, just press on it and the husk should separate from the seed. What i do is to first remove the stem leftovers, and then lightly 'bruise' the rest in a pestle and mortar (or even a rolling pin and pastry board), just enough to split the husks from most of the seeds. Put the result onto one end of a sheet pan, tilt it slightly just so that when you tap on the sheet pan, the seeds (being heavier and round) will roll to the other side. The result is not perfect, but then you could clean up the rest by hand, one peppercorn at a time. Or design your own home 'winnowing' technique. Have fun.

For anyone wanting to do an experiment, try separating the husk and seed, grind each separately and do a taste and texture test.

Has anyone been able to buy Sichuan peppercorns with only husks and no seeds? Perhaps someone should get onto this potentially profitable venture?

One easier alternative, to have absolutely no grit, is to make Sichuan peppercorn oil - use any flavorless oil and i believe any recipe for flavoring oils will do. As 'regular' hot chilli peppers are commonly used together with sichuan peppercorns, this could be added to the oil as well. The only disadvantage for some is that flavored oils do not have the 'freshness' of the peppers or flavoring agents. Oh well, we cant have it all?

It's dangerous to eat, it's more dangerous to live.


#44 jmolinari

jmolinari
  • participating member
  • 1,361 posts

Posted 29 November 2010 - 09:17 AM

agree, it's definitely the black internal beads that lead to grittyness....i'm one of those people who manually picks through to get the black seeds out.

#45 Chris Hennes

Chris Hennes

    Director of Operations

  • manager
  • 8,159 posts
  • Location:Norman, Oklahoma

Posted 29 November 2010 - 09:40 AM

I've only glanced through Young's "Breath" book, but I don't know if I'd necessarily call the recipes contained within "authentic" in that they don't necessarily represent what you'd actually find in China. Rather, I think the book does pretty well to give a sense of the type of the homestyle cooking found in the Toisanese immigrant communities in America.

I have no idea what type of cooking the recipes in "Sky's Edge" are supposed to represent, but cumin is something that you'd never find a Toisan/Cantonese kitchen.

The book does not claim to represent a single region of China, though for each recipe Young typically gives some regional indication. For example, the recipe with cumin in it is said to be "a signature Hunan-style robust stir-fry of beef with cauliflower, carrots, and tomatoes, seasoned with cumin, garlic, and red pepper flakes." And I haven't even started delving into the dishes like "Chinese Jamaican Stir-Fried Beef and Carrots" (seasoned with Matouk's Calypso Sauce), "Chinese Peruvian Stir-Fried Filet Mignon" (heavy on the potatoes), or "Chinese Trinidadian Chicken with Mango Chutney" (lots of mango chutney in Chinese stir fries?). There is clearly a lot of fusion going on here.

Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org


#46 Ben Hong

Ben Hong
  • participating member
  • 1,383 posts

Posted 29 November 2010 - 09:53 AM

There is clearly a lot of fusion going on here.



Ahhh, that is exactly my feeling. Proving once again that one should read a book before reviewing it! :rolleyes:

Cumin in "Chinese" cooking? Fill your boots!

#47 prasantrin

prasantrin
  • legacy participant
  • 5,468 posts

Posted 29 November 2010 - 09:54 AM

The book does not claim to represent a single region of China, though for each recipe Young typically gives some regional indication. For example, the recipe with cumin in it is said to be "a signature Hunan-style robust stir-fry of beef with cauliflower, carrots, and tomatoes, seasoned with cumin, garlic, and red pepper flakes." And I haven't even started delving into the dishes like "Chinese Jamaican Stir-Fried Beef and Carrots" (seasoned with Matouk's Calypso Sauce), "Chinese Peruvian Stir-Fried Filet Mignon" (heavy on the potatoes), or "Chinese Trinidadian Chicken with Mango Chutney" (lots of mango chutney in Chinese stir fries?). There is clearly a lot of fusion going on here.


Did she learn those dishes from Chinese residents of those countries? Plenty of long-term ethnic Chinese residents in the Caribbean and South America, so for them to have melded their home and adopted countries' cuisines would be natural. Or are they dishes of her own creation?

I like how she uses "style" in her description, indicating (to me) that the dish is not pure Hunanese, but rather a dish with Hunanese influences.

#48 Chris Hennes

Chris Hennes

    Director of Operations

  • manager
  • 8,159 posts
  • Location:Norman, Oklahoma

Posted 29 November 2010 - 11:40 AM

Right on all counts, prasantrin. Some of the recipes seems to be her own adaptation, some are from Chinese expats living abroad, and some are from second- or third- generation Chinese immigrants in the US. Not to mention the fact that China is a pretty big country! It sounds like there are plenty of people who have never heard of cumin in Chinese food, although clearly it's present in some regions.

Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org


#49 Jenni

Jenni
  • participating member
  • 1,040 posts

Posted 29 November 2010 - 11:50 AM

There's certainly plenty of Chinese in Trinidad, so it could be a proper Sino-Trinidadian dish.

#50 Prawncrackers

Prawncrackers
  • participating member
  • 1,157 posts
  • Location:Birmingham, UK

Posted 29 November 2010 - 12:45 PM

As luck would have it, Prawncrackers, tonight's meal plan did in fact include two recipes from the book: good timing!

Just making sure you get a balanced meal Chris, gosh I'm turning into my mother! If you have meat you must have some veg with it too etc etc :smile:

#51 jnash85

jnash85
  • participating member
  • 57 posts
  • Location:Knoxville, Tn

Posted 29 November 2010 - 05:39 PM

I found the recipe for the Ginger Beef online and made it tonight. I enjoyed it, but found the beef still did not have the seared texture I wanted. I'm attributing this to the fact it was cooked in a 12" skillet on a crappy electric burner, not a wok. I will try and Beef and Broccoli tomorrow.

Once I find a good stir fry I really like I'm gonna try Alton Brown's method with a wok over a charcoal fire.

#52 Chris Hennes

Chris Hennes

    Director of Operations

  • manager
  • 8,159 posts
  • Location:Norman, Oklahoma

Posted 29 November 2010 - 05:46 PM

I had pretty good success in my pre-Big Kahuna days using a skillet on an electric stove: just make sure you let it preheat until very hot, and don't add too much to the pan all at once. And hope your ventilation can keep up! I set off the fire alarm on more than one occasion...

Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org


#53 jnash85

jnash85
  • participating member
  • 57 posts
  • Location:Knoxville, Tn

Posted 29 November 2010 - 06:02 PM

Yeah, I added way to much beef at once. Gonna make a smaller portion tomorrow. I still feel like something was missing from that dish.

#54 Chris Hennes

Chris Hennes

    Director of Operations

  • manager
  • 8,159 posts
  • Location:Norman, Oklahoma

Posted 01 December 2010 - 06:19 PM

Chinese Burmese Chili Chicken (pp. 140–141)

So that the regional affiliations are clear, here are Young's comments on the dish:

Irene Khin Wong, owner of Saffron 59 Catering in New York City and a native of Myanmar (formerly Burma), taught me this recipe, one of her signature dishes. Wong's parents were both born in Myanmar but her father's family was originally from Guangzhou, China. [...] This recipe reflects the fusion of Chinese, Burmese, and Indian cuisines.


I enjoyed the flavor combination, though I was a bit surprised by the way the chile powder is added at the very end, off the heat. I am used to taking nearly the opposite approach, and letting the powder toast and incorporate more into the dish, instead of treating it as a last-minute seasoning. I don't know which region's cooking that is representative of: anyone? And Prawncrackers, so you don't think I am missing my vegetables: this dish has way more vegetable than meat, so I didn't think it was necessary to prepare a side dish :smile:.

Chinese Burmese Chili Chicken.jpg

Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org


#55 Chris Hennes

Chris Hennes

    Director of Operations

  • manager
  • 8,159 posts
  • Location:Norman, Oklahoma

Posted 03 December 2010 - 06:22 PM

Five-Spice Chicken with Sugar Snaps (p. 120)
Stir-Fried Baby Bok Choy with Sichuan Pepper and Salt (p. 189)

First off, thanks to those who gave me the advice about the Sichuan Pepper: I removed the little beads and just toasted and ground the husks, which worked perfectly: no grittiness, and plenty of flavor. The pepper is tossed with the bok choy and carrots as they are quickly stir-fried: not a complex dish, but a good one. The chicken dish was also good: I used a homemade five-spice powder based on a recipe I found on the forums here, and it was very good. The dish tasted first of the five-spice powder, then of the dark soy, which is a nice combination, and very flavorful. Overall I thought it worked well as a counterpoint to the relatively mild bok choi.

(For those of you who mocked my use of the mandolin in the first stir fry: I julienned these carrots by hand just for you! (yeah, OK, my knife skills need work...) :smile:)

Five-Spice Chicken with Sugar Snaps.jpg

Stir-Fried Baby Bok Choy with Sichuan Pepper and Salt.jpg

Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org


#56 Dejah

Dejah
  • participating member
  • 3,326 posts
  • Location:Brandon, Manitoba

Posted 03 December 2010 - 09:00 PM

Chris: Try slicing the carrots on a diagonal. Leave the slices in the shape of the carrot as you slice, then pat them down, still in the "shape of the carrot" then julienne. I find that much easier then stacking the slice then cutting.
Dejah
www.hillmanweb.com

#57 nakji

nakji
  • eGullet Society staff emeritus
  • 3,659 posts
  • Location:Shanghai

Posted 03 December 2010 - 09:36 PM

Yes, that's the method I use. Works a trick, and it's really fast.

#58 jo-mel

jo-mel
  • participating member
  • 1,633 posts
  • Location:New Jersey via Massachusetts

Posted 04 December 2010 - 10:44 AM

If you mean like a slightly spread deck of cards, then that is the way I do it, too. Also -- you can cheat and get the shredded carrots in the packages from the supermarket. It is what I usually use when I make Dry-Fried Beef -- Gan Bian Niu Rou Si.

#59 Dejah

Dejah
  • participating member
  • 3,326 posts
  • Location:Brandon, Manitoba

Posted 04 December 2010 - 11:20 AM

The perfect imagery, Jo-mel:-)
Dejah
www.hillmanweb.com

#60 Chris Hennes

Chris Hennes

    Director of Operations

  • manager
  • 8,159 posts
  • Location:Norman, Oklahoma

Posted 25 March 2012 - 05:34 PM

Stir-Fried Bean Sprouts with Chili Bean Sauce (p. 200)

I tried this once before, but used sub-standard sprouts, so I gave it another go tonight to much better effect. The flavor of the sprouts is predominant, as it should be, but it means that overall the dish is fairly mild: the sauce recedes pretty far into the background. Still, a well-flavored and visually attractive vegetable side. (The rest of the meal was a stir-fried pork and rice, for those keeping track of these things)

Bean sprouts.jpg

Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Chinese, Cookbook