164 replies to this topic

[runwestierun]

I've been a lurker here for quite awhile but this is my first post. I joined EYB last month as a lifer (they've said that they will no longer offer the lifetime option once they are out of beta). There are 2 features I like that I haven't seen mentioned here:

I have friends that joined EYB with me and we can search each others' cookbooks libraries. That's just plain fun.

Also, you can search the whole EYB library for recipes. While the site won't give you a recipe, it can help you intelligently fill in holes in your cookbook collection. For instance, I like borage, and I've grown a ton of it, but it's not something that I commonly find recipes for. If I put "borage" into the EYB recipe search, it comes up with 44 hits (including borage ravioli), many in books I don't own but can now seek out.

It's such an exciting tool. And every week they are indexing more books. They've also said that they will soon accept volunteering--if you have an extremely esoteric or old rare book that probably has no chance of being indexed, but you want it indexed for your library, you can index it yourself and upload it into EYB.

They are still working on the site but it has been significantly streamlined since I first looked at it in April. It's brilliant.

[LindaK]

Welcome to eGullet, runwestierun and Jane, and thanks for the tips.

This does seem brilliant. I have no doubt that eGullet members will give the site a thorough test-drive.

[Chris Amirault]

Hi Jane, and hi runwestierun!

Jane, glad to see that the old chestnut Escoffier is rising up the indexing list. That must be a fun indexing project -- similar to reorganizing eG Forums... but I digress....

In any event, if you search for recipes in the US indexed versions the search recognizes the UK/Aus version of the ingredient name. So search for courgettes, you will get all results for zucchini (and vice versa).

That's a great touch. Want to keep things calm across the mighty oceans.

When we index one edition of a cookbook we link it to all other editions so no matter which one you own, the recipes will appear in your searches. If we entered the page numbers for the edition we indexed it could be wrong for the other editions.

Also excellent. I didn't realize that when I was entering my titles, and so I was pretty persnickety about editions, a pita for things like the Culinaria books. Perhaps you can mention that on the site itself when users are getting their collections entered? Or did I miss that?

I have friends that joined EYB with me and we can search each others' cookbooks libraries. That's just plain fun.

And a great way to check out a cookbook you haven't got via that friend. I'm game if anyone else is (username Chris A).

It's such an exciting tool. And every week they are indexing more books. They've also said that they will soon accept volunteering--if you have an extremely esoteric or old rare book that probably has no chance of being indexed, but you want it indexed for your library, you can index it yourself and upload it into EYB.

Fantastic! Um...

Hey, Jane? How long does it take to index, say, 200 recipes?

Oh, I'm a lifer as of yesterday.

Edited by Chris Amirault, 01 August 2010 - 04:37 PM.
fix username

[jane@eatyourbooks]

Indexing rates vary enormously according to how complex the recipes are - if there are foreign names, lots of ingredients, confusing layouts, etc it takes far longer than a simple recipe per page with a straightforward ingredients list. We estimate that indexers should be able to enter between 50 and 100 per hour. We try to vary the complexity of books and subject matters for them.

[RobertCollins]

We do not list page numbers as there can be many different editions with different page layouts and hence page numbers. When we index one edition of a cookbook we link it to all other editions so no matter which one you own, the recipes will appear in your searches. If we entered the page numbers for the edition we indexed it could be wrong for the other editions.

How does this work. For instance I have two of the three "Joy of Cooking" Each share the same name but are really very dissimilar, in fact, so much so in the shift from 2nd ed to 3rd ed that they probably shouldn't have the same title. Are you saying that you would give results for all three editions or only the one -maybe two- that we have listed in our collections?

[jane@eatyourbooks]

Where the book has been revised or updated we do not link them and if they are popular enough we will index each edition. So for Joy of Cooking we have so far indexed the 1975 7th edition and the 75th Anniversary edition from 2006. We have assigned the 1997 8th edition to an indexer but it is going to take a while to complete - those books are monsters.

[bjcohan]

THANK YOU!!! I was wondering if there was a way I could get EatYourBooks and LibraryThing to communicate! This is outstanding!

(I guess now I have to find time to get a few hundred more cookbooks into my LibraryThing database... sigh)

Barb

[nakji]

Can I just say that I'm enjoying the "location" function? Since I have cookbook collections in two countries, I can make sure I'm searching for recipes in my current location. A small thing, but valuable for me.

As someone who has a rather small cookbook collection (I've added 13 to my bookshelf; 11 have already been indexed), I was shocked to see how many recipes I have at my disposal - more than 3000. And I find it almost easier to browse the recipes on a computer screen than through the book; especially with books like "How to Cook Everything".

One question: is there an easy way to tag recipes as "tried"?

[jane@eatyourbooks]

One question: is there an easy way to tag recipes as "tried"?

You can have any tags you like by going to Classifications and clicking Add New Categories. Once you have set up "Tried" as a category it can be added to any recipe you want. The whole tags system is going to be greatly improved in the new site version launching in a few weeks. There will be a Bookmarks button for every book and recipe that will allow you to enter any tags there - Favorites, Do Laters, Menus, Locations, etc.

[Kerry Beal]

Jane - can I add cookbooks not in the library?

[jane@eatyourbooks]

Jane - can I add cookbooks not in the library?

We're not set up for members to add new books. But we do have a Books Import feature that lets you import ISBNs. Any books that are not in the Library are being added to a list that we will add when we set up affiliations with other booksellers in the next couple of months. When they get added to the Library they will automatically go onto your Bookshelf.

[Amy D.]

After playing around with the site this afternoon I've seen so many benefits to it. Probably most importantly for me is the fact that I'll probably be using my cookbook collection more often, something i've been doing less of in the last couple of years as I've found that it just easier to check on the net to check for ideas for e.g. aubergine than trawl through all the books whereas now I can quickly see I have 83 aubergine recipes in my collection (& thats with only a quarter of the books from my as yet incomplete bookshelf being indexed).

[nakji]

After playing around with the site this afternoon I've seen so many benefits to it. Probably most importantly for me is the fact that I'll probably be using my cookbook collection more often, something i've been doing less of in the last couple of years as I've found that it just easier to check on the net to check for ideas for e.g. aubergine than trawl through all the books whereas now I can quickly see I have 83 aubergine recipes in my collection (& thats with only a quarter of the books from my as yet incomplete bookshelf being indexed).

And the nice thing about using your cookbooks rather than just the internet is that you know that the recipes come from sources that you trusted enough to purchase a book from, rather than just "the cloud".

[JAZ]

Jane, just to clarify: if I import a book that's not indexed into my Bookshelf, do I have to click on the "RI" icon if I would like to see the book indexed? Simply importing it isn't enough?

The reason I ask is that the RI interface is a little clunky. If I don't have to go through it, I'd rather skip it.

[jane@eatyourbooks]

if I import a book that's not indexed into my Bookshelf, do I have to click on the "RI" icon if I would like to see the book indexed? Simply importing it isn't enough?

We use a combination of index requests and the numbers on members' Bookshelves when compiling our indexing chart. So the fact you have added a book to your Bookshelf will move it up the chart but if it's something you really want indexed then doing an index request will help more. Yes, we know it is clunky - it will be much better when the new site goes live in a few weeks. You don't have to send the email - just clicking the button sends the index request through to us. With the new site the index request will gray-out so you know you have already requested that book.

[JAZ]

Thanks, Jane. I'll keep that in mind with future books.

[RobertCollins]

Since I had never even thought of using a barcode scanner before this thread, I had to buy one. After driving around Seattle until I was dizzy and sick of being told I had to buy a Point of Sale system if I wanted one; I went to Google and found about a million. I learned that not all scanners will read ISBN but found one at Buy .com for $63 that would.

It is a ADESSO Nusscan 1000 series. Plugged into a USB port and started scanning.

I'm running about 20% misses. I have a fair number of pre 10 and 13 diget older books so I will have to figure it out. I'd like to see this program at least catalog ALL my books whether they will ever be indexed or not.

This system has me excited.

[Lapin d'Argent]

Another Lifetime Member here. I'm looking forward to being able to enter my "antique" cookbooks, even if they aren't indexed.

[MaxH]

Haven't tried the site yet, and it sounds intriguing. I have a basic concern, which may not be an issue for everyone, but I'd better first explain where this comes from. I grew up cooking from and being tipped off about outstanding cookbooks from years past, and as an adult I continued to accumulate them (I have a lot of cookbooks now) based on quality and utility, rather than current publisher marketing.

Consequently many of my cookbooks (including utter, indispensable classics) have no ISBNs (those books predate the 1970s when ISBNs came into general use; many predate 1950). Some (10%?) are in languages besides English, also sometimes pre-ISBN; again sometimes indispensable. The following probably won't make sense to anyone familiar just with recent cookbooks, but the ISBN era only captures a minority of noteworthy cookbooks published, even in the US; it's even worse than that, because (acc. to US cookbook-history statistics in DuSablon's book on the subject) the rate of US cookbook publication greatly accelerated, coincidentally with ISBNs' advent, and in my observation the acceleration reflected more a desire to publish or sell books than a proportionate increase in useful content, though there are important exceptions.*

Therefore, short of indexing my hundreds of non-ISBN titles myself, it sounds like I'd be limited to recent decades.

* Few people have the perspective of a friend who owns one of the largest US cookbook collections in the world. She has remarked, in published interviews, that very, very little in modern US cookbooks can't be found before 1935 or so, so she regards current US cookbooks as largely a repackaging or rediscovery business. (The Hesses, some years earlier, went further, documenting vast plagiarism.) With notable exceptions, especially from overseas cuisines coming into US nowadays.

[Chris Amirault]

Therefore, short of indexing my hundreds of non-ISBN titles myself, it sounds like I'd be limited to recent decades.

That's correct, though it's not really about pre-ISBN as much as currently unpopular. I have a smaller number of pre-ISBN books than you do, but enough of them that I had a similar thought. I suppose that, if enough members pushed for an index on an oldie but goodie, you could bump it up the index list. But that seems pretty remote given the idiosyncrasies of vintage collections in general and the crowd-sourced indexing priorities EYB has set. (Necessarily, I'd think: if you're running a membership-driven for-profit web service, it'd be foolish to place indexing resources on something only obsessives like us have on hand! )

Edited by Chris Amirault, 06 August 2010 - 12:48 PM.
clarification --

[jane@eatyourbooks]

We are hoping that once we open up the indexing to member volunteers that more of the less "popular" books will get indexed. We obviously had to make our priority the cookbooks that the most members want indexed. But it was never our intention to just index recent books - our indexed books are mainly from the 80's up to date, with a few from the 60s and 70s. The problem with vintage collections is that the number of people owning each book is bound to be smaller.

It is very expensive to index each book so it's not possible to index every book that EYB members own. That is hopefully where members will get involved - and as we expand our membership there will more members with older collections who will share in the workload. So you shouldn't have to index all your books to access the recipes. Though it actually is quite fun indexing the books - you get to know them really well.

Although at the moment we just list books with ISBNs we will in the future be opening up the EYB Library so members can add books without ISBNs as well as foreign language books (not sure we will have foreign language ingredients though). We are still in beta, so we have a to-do list a mile long of improvements we want to make to the site. So I can't give you a date when the pre-ISBN imports will happen, but it will be done.

[Chris Amirault]

You know what would be wicked cool (says the Boston kid)? Creating an online indexing workzone that would enable me, Max, and the other seven people who treasure their copies of Ye Olde Cookery Book to index it. You'd have some potential for quality control problems, but it would be an excellent way to tap into EYB members' collective investment in getting the job done.

[jane@eatyourbooks]

So you would divide up the chapters between you? I'll have to think how that would work. The recipes have to be in a sort order so they appear in the same order as they are in the book. Yes, we know the quality control aspect will be critical. We will have to do a lot of proofreading!

[MaxH]

Thanks for the info, Jane.

... that would enable me, Max, and the other seven people who treasure their copies of Ye Olde Cookery Book to index it.

The exotic Ye Olde Cookery Booke is a good angle (and lightly taken, as I think intended) -- in fact if you like cookbooks with titles like that, there's a delightful broad anthology (again not recent) and I'm currently learning things from its recipes.

Just to be clear: As an avid practical cook, my interest isn't in narrow or "collector" stuff. I'm just thinking more of merit than age. Cookbooks of quality do actually tend to be popular, once people notice them. Being receptive to cookbooks before the current batch (just like reading general writers beyond the current batch) can also be eye-opening, imparting sense of perspective or history, less thrall for the fads and fatuities of the moment.

I'm thinking more of things like the classic epic US sandwich book, or the best-selling US authors who popularized French cooking over the 150 years before Julia Child took her turn at it, or the books defining famous national cuisines of several countries with long histories, or the French home cook's classic counterpart to Escoffier, or the perspective that Cracknell and Kaufmann's translation of the Guide Culinaire (Escoffier's professional reference cookbook) is traditionally cited by English speakers as the Guide Culinaire just as they also call the famous encyclopedia Larousse Gastronomique. Important but pre-current cookbooks enabled me to answer many current food-related questions on eGullet and elsewhere. (You can decide for yourself if it's a benefit or curse to become conscious, also, of how much needless misinformation crowds Wikipedia food and drink entries.)

[Chris Amirault]

MaxH, I don't at all mean to tease, and I agree completely that merit and not age is the issue. Your examples are perfect.

So you would divide up the chapters between you? I'll have to think how that would work. The recipes have to be in a sort order so they appear in the same order as they are in the book. Yes, we know the quality control aspect will be critical. We will have to do a lot of proofreading!

What we do here in eG Forums on projects like this is create teams, determine indexing criteria, and sit around "together"/across the globe hacking away at it. Order is just a labeling problem: step one could be assigning recipes numbers. But once those are done it's simply a matter of generating data within predetermined fields for each record and quality control.

I'd also bet that your web designer could create a UI on the website itself that would enable this work to be done in a uniform way -- hell, google now has forms that dump data into CSV, excel, you name it formats. S/he also might be able to create a chat room where the folks can yak as they index.

[Chris Hennes]

It sounds like a lot of work is going into the new version of EYB, I'm really stoked about some of the changes that are coming down the pipeline. Do you want us to continue submitting bug reports about the current version, or would it be best to just wait until after the big upgrade?

[Shalmanese]

Can I ask how you're currently indexing the books? OCR? Crowdsourced labor? In house teams? A combination of the above?

[Niall]

Since I had never even thought of using a barcode scanner before this thread, I had to buy one. After driving around Seattle until I was dizzy and sick of being told I had to buy a Point of Sale system if I wanted one; I went to Google and found about a million. I learned that not all scanners will read ISBN but found one at Buy .com for $63 that would.

It is a ADESSO Nusscan 1000 series. Plugged into a USB port and started scanning.

I'm running about 20% misses. I have a fair number of pre 10 and 13 diget older books so I will have to figure it out. I'd like to see this program at least catalog ALL my books whether they will ever be indexed or not.

This system has me excited.

I'm using a free app called ZBar on an iPhone 3GS to get the barcodes; it's working quite well. Although we've had a few books where the bookshop has put their barcode sticker over the ISBN barcode.. a bit irritating.

[jane@eatyourbooks]

It sounds like a lot of work is going into the new version of EYB, I'm really stoked about some of the changes that are coming down the pipeline. Do you want us to continue submitting bug reports about the current version, or would it be best to just wait until after the big upgrade?

We always welcome bug reports - if it's something already fixed in the upcoming new version we'll just tell you, if it's a new bug or suggested enhancement, we welcome the input.

Can I ask how you're currently indexing the books? OCR? Crowdsourced labor? In house teams? A combination of the above?

Unfortunately we don't use OCR due to the complex nature of cookbooks. We could do for just the recipe title but the categories and ingredient names don't leap off the page. E.g. a recipe for chicken dopiaza may have nothing in the recipe listing to indicate it is a Indian curry and a main course (all three categories we would enter) and the ingredient words we want are usually buried in other text. But we are going to investigate ways we might be able to automate more of the process so if you have any thoughts I'd welcome them.

So at the moment it is all done by paid indexers, who are spread around the world, going through the physical book, recipe by recipe, manually entering the data. We are going to open up the indexing to member volunteers who will be able to index their own books, particularly the less "popular" ones that may not reach the top of our indexing queue for some time. We will still have to proofread the work - the quality of the data is critical and we know from even the paid indexers work how variable the quality can be. We now use mainly back-of-the-book cookbook indexers as they understand the importance of data integrity and have good culinary knowledge.

[RobertCollins]

I've now input the last of my books. I have cataloged 130+ in and recognized. I have about 60 to 70 unrecognized.

If they aren't in EYB Library the system doesn't seem to have a way for me to put them in. Hence nearly all of my old Beard books are not in. Even as an inventory item.

I want to print a listing of what is in EYB of my own and will then reorganise my Bookshelf so I can find the noncatalogged ones with out having to read every one of the publish pages. How?

How does one get an ISBN for pre ISBN published books from say the forties or fifties? Can you manually add to the list of books the EYB folks have?

I have used this to find a recipe for supper yesterday and I will love it even more when it grows up, I want to help it to help me. Of course maybe I need to learn how to uwe it better. I'll even give a try on Chris A's Indexing team [though I question my abilities in that sort of thing].