75 replies to this topic

[Darienne]

For us, the hardest meal is breakfast. IndyRob, Do you eat yoghurt and berries every day?

Today I had a shake with whey protein powder in it. DH does not like the taste of the powder. Bit of a problem.

What else is good for breakfast? (I haven't had time to read all the stuff I downloaded last night so I haven't looked up breakfasts yet, but personal stories and recipes are always useful.)

Thanks.

[MartinH]

Low-carb and paleo are a bit different. I think the main divergence is dairy: cheese, cream, and unsweetened yogurt are low carb, but did not feature in the pre-farming, hunter-gatherer diet. Also note that beer is not paleo (since it is grain fermented). Alcohol was not a part of hunter-gatherer life!

I see no good reason to jettison dairy (or booze, in moderation!). After all, many humans (not all) have a genetic adaptation, lactose tolerance, to digest milk as adults, that must have arisen sometime after people first started agriculture about 10,000 years ago.

Several posts have mentioned how hard it is for some people to give up, or cut down on carbs (cereal, bread etc). I have experience of this too and it leads me to think that there may be something almost addictive, or at least very habituating, about starchy-sugary things.

[llc45]

I mostly eat yogurt with berries but we also eat:
bananas or apples with peanut butter
steel cut oats (as I said above - we have modified) with sliced almonds, raisins, etc.
my husband and daughter eat a lot of omelettes - sometimes just the egg whites and not yolks

We found this microwaveable omelette maker for busy school mornings. You put half the beaten egg mixture into each side, cook for a min, add toppings, cook till almost done and flip together. Fast and easy cleanup.

I also make mini-breakfast quiches (use muffin pan)and freeze them for microwaving.

[Okanagancook]

I lost 15 pounds eating a balanced diet with exercise. How come athletes who eat a higher carbohydrate diet aren't all fat? What's up with that??

Read Taubes. If you can refute the substance of his points, I'd love to know about it... I consider anyone who hasn't read that book to be completely uninformed as to the current state of nutritional science, and yes that includes cardiologists, professional nutritionists, etc. It is at least as essential a read for foodies as anything by Pollan (who blurbed it prominently, by the way).

Here's the opinion of a well known obesity researcher: http://www.proteinpo...iew-of-gcbc.pdf

[Darienne]

Low-carb and paleo are a bit different. I think the main divergence is dairy: cheese, cream, and unsweetened yogurt are low carb, but did not feature in the pre-farming, hunter-gatherer diet.

As far as I understand, an important change occurred when we began to drink the milk of cattle. Until then, man had used goat and sheep milk. We drank goat milk for a long time,...and then like most things...slid back into cow milk. I don't actually 'drink' milk, but my DH still does.

However, he had no weight problems at all and I do. Besides I never was a 'milk' drinker even as a child.

[llc45]

On the specific carbohydrate diet (SCD), no milk,cream or fresh cheese is allowed because they have sugar which causes inflammation. You are only allowed to eat yogurt you make yourself that ferments for 24 hrs to break down all of the sugar. You can use this to make yogurt cheese, etc. Since I was the only one eating it, I went back to unsweetened greek yogurt because I wasn't the one having the health problem and greek yogurt is now cheap. Hard aged cheeses are allowed because the aging process breaks down the sugars.

I won't get into the whole science argument. Just know that eating lots of vegetables, fruits, lean meats and whole foods is healthy. Eliminating sugar and most carbs forces you to eliminate nearly all convenience foods. My husband has been trying to lose weight for years. By cutting out most carbs, he realized that he previously could never control himself. If we had pasta or bread, he would overeat. We would go thru bags of low-fat pretzels, crackers,tortillas, etc. Now he reaches for an apple.

We still cheat occasionally, especially for good pizza and on holidays. Hardest thing for us is when we have company and would have normally purchased dessert - I don't like to bake so much. Now I bake (when I have to)- mostly fruit type dessert with nut or coconut flour. Occasionally, flourless chocolate torte with really good chocolate - don't think chocolate is allowed on SCD or paleo - oh well!

[Darienne]

You are only allowed to eat yogurt you make yourself that ferments for 24 hrs to break down all of the sugar. You can use this to make yogurt cheese, etc.

I can appreciate that you don't want to get into all the theory behind this, but I just don't get this about yoghurt. Is it somehow different when made commercially?

It's no problem to make yoghurt and the creme fraiche/soft cheese stuff either and I would be glad to do it.

[tmjst]

A REAL paleo diet should include this:
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Entomophagy

[Dakki]

I had sun dried grasshoppers (chapulines) with powdered chili and lemon in Oaxaca. They were okay but not as good as the whitebait (charales) prepared the same way.

I guess the worm in the mezcal bottle wouldn't count as paleo, being soaked in distilled alcohol and all?

[llc45]

I had sun dried grasshoppers (chapulines) with powdered chili and lemon in Oaxaca. They were okay but not as good as the whitebait (charales) prepared the same way.

I guess the worm in the mezcal bottle wouldn't count as paleo, being soaked in distilled alcohol and all?

[llc45]

You are only allowed to eat yogurt you make yourself that ferments for 24 hrs to break down all of the sugar. You can use this to make yogurt cheese, etc.

I can appreciate that you don't want to get into all the theory behind this, but I just don't get this about yoghurt. Is it somehow different when made commercially?

It's no problem to make yoghurt and the creme fraiche/soft cheese stuff either and I would be glad to do it.

Here is explanation from SCD site: Commercial yoghurt
Practically every dairy in Northern America has Dept. of Agriculture instructions for making commercial yoghurt.
They may start with liquid milk straight from the cow (pasteurized) or they may start with milk solids. However, at the beginning, the ADD additional milk solids. This automatically increases the lactose content. For example, if cow's milk originally has 10% lactose (10 gms per 100 mls) then the addition brings it up to 20% or even 30%.
The second step is to introduce the bacterial cultures (usually Lactobacillus Bulgaricus and Steptococcus Thermophilus). At this point the acid/base - the pH of the milk - is much like human fluid, around 7.2-7.3 (almost neutral on the pH scale). The bacteria immediately start converting the lactose to lactic acid which is the primary step in making yoghurt. This brings the pH down from neutral to about 4.5 as the lactic ACID accumulates. (Acid lowers pH as our stomach acid brings the pH of our stomachs down to about 2).
When the pH hits about 4.5, the bacterial enzymes cannot further convert the remaining lactose. Bacterial enzymes (as is true of all enzymes) are very fastidious as to the acid/alkaline enviroment. Because of the addetional lactose added at the beginning of the process, the yoghurt often contains at this stage as much, and probably more, lactose than a glass of milk would.
The companies also use a very short incubation time which is not even sufficient to convert normal milk lactose completely

[Darienne]

llc45. Merci mille fois.

Shall show this to the DH and then go back to making yoghurt.

[John Rosevear]

Here's the opinion of a well known obesity researcher: http://www.proteinpo...iew-of-gcbc.pdf

...which opinion (and reputation) was meticulously shredded by Taubes' reply: http://www.proteinpo...-ob-reviews.pdf

Edited to add: As far as I know, not a single substantive critique of Taubes has been advanced by a mainstream source. Really, read the book before you try to press this argument any further.

Edited by John Rosevear, 05 February 2010 - 01:25 PM.

[Darienne]

I have put a hold on the Taubes book at our local library. Doing my duty, sir.

[Darienne]

My warmest thanks to SpecialK for starting this thread, and to JohnRosevear for his suggestion for reading materials: Gary Taubes, Good Calories, Bad Calories. And to all the others for their contributions.

The Taubes book is excellent. Pulls together lots of information read in other books over the years. Be forewarned that it is not a fast read and at the end of a long day is not as relaxing as a light murder mystery. But very worth the effort. DH, Ed is not reading it...he's in full renovation mode...but I am relaying all the information to him. Ed is an interesting example of someone who was a fat kid in the 1940s (yes we are THAT old), lost weight in his 30s, had his metabolism changed on him...I don't know why...and has NEVER put back any weight.

This is an important book to read, not in terms of a so-called 'diet' book, which it covers, but as a blueprint to life.

Have also joined the Primal Blueprint for what is of consideration to us. Thanks to the person who suggested that.

I would also suggest two books in the same vein: Lights Out: Sleep, Sugar and Survival by T.S. Wiley and The Blue Zone: Lesson for Living Longer From the People Who've Lived the Longest by Dan Buettner. Any feedback positive or negative is welcomed.

[llc45]

My warmest thanks to SpecialK for starting this thread, and to JohnRosevear for his suggestion for reading materials: Gary Taubes, Good Calories, Bad Calories. And to all the others for their contributions.

The Taubes book is excellent. Pulls together lots of information read in other books over the years. Be forewarned that it is not a fast read and at the end of a long day is not as relaxing as a light murder mystery. But very worth the effort. DH, Ed is not reading it...he's in full renovation mode...but I am relaying all the information to him. Ed is an interesting example of someone who was a fat kid in the 1940s (yes we are THAT old), lost weight in his 30s, had his metabolism changed on him...I don't know why...and has NEVER put back any weight.

This is an important book to read, not in terms of a so-called 'diet' book, which it covers, but as a blueprint to life.

Have also joined the Primal Blueprint for what is of consideration to us. Thanks to the person who suggested that.

I would also suggest two books in the same vein: Lights Out: Sleep, Sugar and Survival by T.S. Wiley and The Blue Zone: Lesson for Living Longer From the People Who've Lived the Longest by Dan Buettner. Any feedback positive or negative is welcomed.

Darienne - I haven't read the Blue Zone but have listened to the author speak many times and it is always interesting. Just saw a segment on Dr Oz with him and he introduced 5 new Blue Zone foods. He recommended Barrimundi as a new fish to try with good Omega 3 content - having trouble finding it.

[Darienne]

Darienne - I haven't read the Blue Zone but have listened to the author speak many times and it is always interesting. Just saw a segment on Dr Oz with him and he introduced 5 new Blue Zone foods. He recommended Barrimundi as a new fish to try with good Omega 3 content - having trouble finding it.

Send for the book on I.L.L. at your local library. My DH wanted the book so we bought it, but I can see no reason to own it...along with most self-help books. Excellent premise starts the self-help/acceptable diet/nutrition/etc book which then carries on for a few hundred pages. Most of them deserve a long article. I guess ya gotta make money.

Furthermore, as soon as the author starts a) a website and more tellingly b) selling stuff and then c) a follow-up book...that's usually it for me. Gosh, that all sounds a bit harsh for me! Take the rant out of the above, please.

I doubt we could get Barrimundi in Peterborough.

Edited by Darienne, 19 February 2010 - 08:20 AM.

[Moopheus]

[ My DH wanted the book so we bought it, but I can see no reason to own it...along with most self-help books.

Indeed--self-help and diet books are not worth owning. They are more aspirational than informational. They sell hopes and dreams, and no publisher has any incentive to publish one that actually works. That would be killing the goose that lays the golden egg! The whole point is that they fail, and so create the market for the next one.

When I worked as a editor, and would hear proposals for this or that diet book, eventually I came up with the idea of submitting my own proposal for a book, called the "Eat real food, not junk food" book. On page one, it would say, "Eat a reasonable amount of real food. Do not eat too much junk food. Get off your fat butt and get some exercise once in a while." Then it would be followed by 150 blank pages. To date I have not seen a book with a better idea. But people in the business tend to be humorless about such suggestions (Once, after hearing about Yet Another Celebrity Cancer memoir, I said, out loud, "Why don't we just publish the Encyclopedia of Celebrity Cancer and be done with it?" I am not an editor any more.).

[pen_h]

The mention of raw foods reminded me of an interview on NPR with a biologist who suggests that it was cooking that made us human.

An amazing book - Catching Fire: How Cooking Made Us Human by renowned primatologist Richard Wrangham. Highly recommended study of how our evolution was based in a large part on cooking.

Another book that talks about human evolution and diet is Why Some Like It Hot - Food, Genes, And Cultural Diversity by ethnobiologist and nutritional ecologist Gary Paul Nabhan. A lot of interesting information on genetics and food. The author discusses and rejects neolithic diets (and there have been many of them). For there to be one diet that all our ancestors ate, the food must have been the same wherever humans lived. Floras and faunas can change in the matter of just ten miles, and the human diet must shift as it adapts to newly occupied habitats.

Humans in Northwest Europe and parts of Eastern Africa were at times mainly herding, and they may have had milk as a major part of their diet in some situations - the genetic mutation of lactose tolerance must have allowed them to live through tough times when there was little else to eat. Genetic mutations like this can happen fairly quickly, becoming prevalent in hundreds or thousands of years rather than millions. How many other personal quirks do each of us have that are related to genetics? Is one diet suitable for everyone? I think not.

[Darienne]

Hi Penny,

Thanks for all the good information. Have downloaded the interview and will read it as soon as I can and this afternoon will request the two books on I.L.L. from our local library. Should make fascinating reading.

This topic is for me one of the most rewarding in a long time. Life altering, I would say. Thanks, all

I do have a question: dinner (we eat it at noon) and supper present no problems. But breakfast...ah, breakfast. Today Ed ate hardboiled eggs (ugh) and I guess I"ll have scrambled, but exactly what do you all eat for breakfast? And please, nothing that is complicated...unless it's a question of eating/reheating something already made. We gave up the more leisurely breakfast a couple of months ago...forever I hope. (Yes, we are both retired but live a full, working life, just not on a preset schedule.)

Edited by Darienne, 23 February 2010 - 06:54 AM.

[llc45]

But breakfast...ah, breakfast. Today Ed ate hardboiled eggs (ugh) and I guess I"ll have scrambled, but exactly what do you all eat for breakfast? And please, nothing that is complicated...unless it's a question of eating/reheating something already made. We gave up the more leisurely breakfast a couple of months ago...forever I hope. (Yes, we are both retired but live a full, working life, just not on a preset schedule.)

Darienne -
SCD and Paleo sites have lots of ideas. When I was following more strictly, I made mini-quiches/frittatas in muffin cups and kept in freezer then microwaved. Ditto muffins and breads made with coconut flour or almond flour. It took some experimenting but I ended up making a banana bread that my family liked better than the flour/sugar version.

Unfortunately, my old computer with a lot of those sites tagged died recently or I would reference them. If you search gluten free/SCD/Paleo recipes, you should find quite a few. If the almond flour did not come finely ground, it made for heavy muffins - look for finely ground. Coconut flour is full of protein so it is very filling. If I can find some of the recipes I was using, I will PM you. I think keeping freezer stocked is only way you can adhere to this diet for breakfast.

Quick things besides eggs - apples or bananas with peanut butter, same fruit sauteed with butter, smoothies.

[Darienne]

Darienne -
SCD and Paleo sites have lots of ideas. When I was following more strictly, I made mini-quiches/frittatas in muffin cups and kept in freezer then microwaved. Ditto muffins and breads made with coconut flour or almond flour. It took some experimenting but I ended up making a banana bread that my family liked better than the flour/sugar version.

Unfortunately, my old computer with a lot of those sites tagged died recently or I would reference them. If you search gluten free/SCD/Paleo recipes, you should find quite a few. If the almond flour did not come finely ground, it made for heavy muffins - look for finely ground. Coconut flour is full of protein so it is very filling. If I can find some of the recipes I was using, I will PM you. I think keeping freezer stocked is only way you can adhere to this diet for breakfast.

Quick things besides eggs - apples or bananas with peanut butter, same fruit sauteed with butter, smoothies.

Thanks llc45. Had to look up SCD...never heard of it before. We do use almond meal already and I have made some of the recipes/concoctions on PB (Primal Blueprint), as in Nutola instead of Granola. Probably would choose almond butter over peanut..and I can do without bananas, although DH loves them. I've never been a banana fan...except when fried in butter, preferably with a few raspberries, then a chocolate ganache topped with a soupcon of whipped cream on top. Now that's a banana I like.

Thanks again. I look forward to hearing from you with some recipes.

ps. Why have you given up the stricter adherence to the regime?

Edited by Darienne, 23 February 2010 - 09:19 AM.

[John Rosevear]

There's a farm about 2 miles from my house that has superb fresh eggs from pastured hens. I eat scrambled eggs or an omelet for breakfast nearly every morning, often with good bacon or sausage. I was always kind of indifferent to eggs, but eating these is definitely not a hardship.

[llc45]

[quote name='Darienne' date='23 February 2010 - 11:18 AM' timestamp='1266941921' post='1731301']
[quote name='llc45' date='23 February 2010 - 11:00 AM' timestamp='1266940820' post='1731298']

ps. Why have you given up the stricter adherence to the regime?
[/quote]

We started the diet because my daughter has a medical issue (auto-immune related) that wasn't responding to medication. The diet really helps a lot but she is a teenager and resists not being able to go out for ice cream or coffee coolatas with her friends. So, we try to stick to it as much as possible. She fell off the wagon so to speak this last week and had symptons as a result.

As far as my husband and I are concerned, we ate pretty healthy to begin with. Try to follow Michael Pollen's philosophy - eat food, not too much, mostly plants. But, now in our 40's, even eating this way, we were starting to put on pounds, especially my husband who comes from a family of diabetics. He was getting frustrated because he really wasn't eating a lot and was exercising and couldn't lose the weight.

Long story short, the side benefit is that by us starting the diet, we are losing weight without planning to. More importantly, we have a lot more energy and feel a lot less tired. Cravings for junk food are non-existant. We realized we were eating a lot of low fat carbs - pasta, pretzels, bread. Once you start eating these, you eat too much of these, your blood sugar spikes and it makes you hungrier. But we did miss carbs, so we added in steel cut oats for some breakfasts and brown rice for some dinners. Also, a pasta made for diabetics (Dream Fields) occasionally because we really like our Italian Food. These are all low glycemic index foods so they do not cause blood sugar spike. We now eat roasted or mashed rutabagas or cauliflower instead of potatoes.

A good site to look at is drweil.com - he has an anti-inflammatory diet pyramid that I like a lot. Someone above made a good point saying that one diet does not work for everyone and I agree with that whole heartedly. We feel so much healthier eating this way but don't stress out if we go to friends house for a pizza once in awhile either.

[Darienne]

That's the second time today to Google. Never heard of a coolata before. We have made a variation of them, both hot and cold, for years.

Sorry your daughter has immune-related problems...and that she's a teenage too!!

Shall look up the drweil.com website.

Oh, one thing you can do vis-a-vis pasta is to use shredded cabbage. You'll be amazed at how it works.

DH doesn't like brown rice. Rats.

We do eat pretty simply, a lot of home cooked Chinese, and our large meal is at noon which is good. We are both almost 70 and while his metabolism has changed for the good...although we'll never know why...mine hasn't. I ended up carrying more weight than I should have after years of being OK.

After the last 9 months of wretched pain and not being able to walk or stand much, I am finally back on my feet...at least for a while. Dx of Spinal Stenosis with impinged L5. I've lost about 15 pounds without 'dieting' and that's to the good. And am at a sort of confused dietary cross-roads after too much food nutrition input. That happens. What to eat? I'll get it worked out again.

I had 2 eggs with cheese for breakfast and was once again not feeling all that well and cranky. Can't do that total lack of carbs thing. I didn't mean to...it just happened. Now I'm fine after a lunch of vegetables with a bit of meat. Someone on this topic suggested earlier that I probably had a candida infection and perhaps I do...but I've been like this since I first tried Atkins and that was decades ago. Have to each find our own path.

Thanks.

Edited by Darienne, 23 February 2010 - 11:21 AM.

[paulraphael]

Just to be clear, diets like the paleo diet are based entirely on speculation, not science.
Even paleontologists' ideas about what humans ate during the paleolithic era are speculative (although educated).
The effects of diet on paleolithic people's health, and the effects of this diet on our health vs. other diets, constitute wild, uneducated speculation.

Also, please beware of doctors hawking diets in print and on the radio. An M.D. is not a nutrition researcher. Nutrition is not part of the curriculum in most medical schools. It's a title that helps people sell books.

[John Rosevear]

Not quite wild speculation. There's actually a considerable body of actual peer-reviewed research on precisely this topic. Really, thirty seconds with Google -- or simply a look at some of the secondary sources cited in this thread -- would tell you a whole lot.

[paulraphael]

Not quite wild speculation. There's actually a considerable body of actual peer-reviewed research on precisely this topic.

Yep, I did a bad search on PubMed when I found nothing.

But I just did a good search, and found little of substance. The only controlled studies I found dealt with medicine-specific topics, like comparing paleo to other diets in terms of effect on diabetes, heart disease, or obesity. I didn't find any startling (or even strong) conclusions.

As far as the general premise, I can't find any authoritative source that claims authority on what people actually ate in the paleo period. Just some educated speculation. They're pretty sure about some of the things that weren't eaten, but other key points, like the ratio of meats to plants, are presumed to have varied wildly. Almost verything we believe about was eaten comes from circumstantial evidence ... dental development, tools, cooking implements, etc.

[John Rosevear]

Much of the historical... mythology, perhaps... around the diet is inferred from observations of surviving modern-era hunter-gatherer societies. But when you say the health effects are "wild speculation"... it is hardly unstudied speculation to say, for instance, that removing sugar and gluten from the Standard American Diet and substituting high-quality, organic meats and oils for factory-farmed equivalents would be anything but a very good thing. I mean, is that what you are arguing? That those sorts of changes are just wild crazy ideas? That there's no data? I sound like a broken record in this thread, but do read Gary Taubes.

[paulraphael]

it is hardly unstudied speculation to say, for instance, that removing sugar and gluten from the Standard American Diet and substituting high-quality, organic meats and oils for factory-farmed equivalents would be anything but a very good thing. I mean, is that what you are arguing? That those sorts of changes are just wild crazy ideas? That there's no data? I sound like a broken record in this thread, but do read Gary Taubes.

Removing sugar and gluten? Can you show me any peer reviewed research showing health benefits of doing this (not counting people with celiac disease)?

It's a no-brainer to argue that people eat disproportionately too much of many things (top of the list: calories!) But god, the number of basic nutrients that have been demonized over the years as fundamentally bad covers just about all of them. Meanwhile, basic nutrition science, with regard to macronutrient ratios, hasn't changed significantly in 30 years or more. More and more research piles up, just slightly refining the same ideas.

As far as high-quality, organic ingredients vs. factory-farmed equivalents ... I don't even know how to address that. You are conflating several ideas that have no fundamental relation to each other. There are high quality orgainic ingredients and low quality organic ingredients; high and low quality non-organic ingredients; high and low quality factory farmed ingredients; even organic and non-organic factory farmed ingredients!

If what you're trying to say is that high quality food is healthier than low quality food, I don't think anyone would disagree ... but this thesis is a little too broad to test scientifically.