121 replies to this topic

[schneich]

i just came back from my trip to the salon du chocolat. on our second and third day we visited all the good places in paris. we went also to jacques genin marvelous shop, where we had the chance to talk to the master himself. of course we tried his caramels of which i heard a lot beforehand. before i tasted them i thought they were just caramels, like i tasted many before. so we left the place with a 30,- euro box of chocolats and a 14 euro bag of caramels. as soon as we left the shop i poped one of the suckers into my mouth, it was just HEAVEN they we soo soft an unctuos, with a deeeep creamy buttery caramel flavour, so i turn on the foot and spend another 34 euros on a box of caramels, on top we bought a bag of mango-caramels he kept in the cooling for freshness he said. soon i knew i HAVE to make these caramels for my customers, so i spent the better part of this beuatiful sunday in the pastry shop, trying to get anywhere near his recipe. the first attempt was the greweling soft caramel recipe with fresh cream. bsides beeing chewy beyond good belief it lacked 90% of the deep flavour. second attempt a recipe from a french patissier schoolbook called "caramel mou" which uses 700 sugar, 900 glucose, 1l cream 35%, and 200 butter. since in this recipe sugars and cream are cooked together it too lacked any deep caramel flavour, and was besides beeing sticky a miraculous substance which could be pulled into long ribbons even when cold :-( my next attempt is a recipe from morato which i pimped a little bit it consisted of 750 35% cream, 700 sugar, 150 gluco, 200 butter, 2 sod. bicarb. - i added another 200g butter, dry caramelized the sugar, boiled cream, gluco and bicarb, and turned the butter into a beurre noisette before mixing into the 114c caramel. the result was a bit darker than genins, and since i brought it to 118 a bit tougher, but flavourrichnesswise it was already quite close. next thing would be to cook the dry caramel a bit lighter, put a little bit more salt and cook to 116. any suggestioins are very welcome.


cheers


torsten s.

Edited by schneich, 18 October 2009 - 12:14 PM.

[Kerry Beal]

Torsten - here is the discussion previously on experimentation trying to imitate his caramels.

[gap]

Hi Kerry,

I've read through the post you linked. So what was your final recipe - the one you mentioned in the link? (Apologies if it's there, but I can't seem to find anything on RecipeGullet).

Cheers

PS: we also visited Jacques Genin when in Paris earlier this year. We caught the Metro out to his store but walked all the way back eating different flavours of those caramels - they really have quite an amazing texture (and it was the texture and creamy/butteriness that did it for me rather than the taste of the additions even thought that was also excellent)

[mostlylana]

I'm just starting on the road to caramel making so am pleased with the timing of this post.

I read through the link Kerry gave. David Lebovitz mentioned about him opening a store in the US but he was concerned about the butter. I think that points a finger to the 'magic' of his caramels n'est pas?

Here is a link to a David Lebovitz archived article which talks about 'the butter':

http://www.davidlebo...late_tasti.html

[schneich]

hi kerry,

nice to have you on the topic :-)
the questions concerning your previous thread is: did you nail the "genin" consistency, because thats what iam after. i think "noisetting" the butter deepens the flavour a lot. i also figuered that caramelizing the sugar dry also helps. i sensed that when i deglaced the caramelized sugar with the hot cream the initial fragrance was caramelized sugar. further into the reducing cream process the strong "burnt sugar" fragrance turned into a buttery caramel one. so my assumption is that the addition of caramelized sugar, cream and "caramelized" butter makes the richness and deepnes of the flavour. when i cook the cream together with sugar it seems like the sugar doesnt get the right caramelization, only the cream seems to caramelize leaving the result tasting one dimensional. for my next trial iam gonna get a sweet cream beurre cru from the normandie, i guess sweet cream butter might make a difference..



cheers


t.

Edited by schneich, 19 October 2009 - 02:33 AM.

[Kerry Beal]

Can't recall now if I hit the consistency right on or not - been quite a while since I made that. I know I liked what I ended up with given the material I have to work with here.

[schneich]

last trial:

1000 cream 35%, 750 sugar, 100 gluco, 400 butter (beurre isigny demisel), 2g sodiumbicarbonate, cook to 116c = perfect consistency, tastewise 96% there...

[Lior]

Did you caramelize the dry sugar?

[mostlylana]

Also, did you noisette your butter as well?

I did some more research and was determined not to give up until I found a recipe that was 'supposedly' his. Here's what I found (you need to understand french):

http://www.mortenhar...8eba10475cce0a6

[schneich]

dry caramelize, but not too dark, but i didnt noisette the butter....
my caramels are so soft that i can easily cut them with the guitar :-)




@mostlylana: great find, thanks :-)

[mostlylana]

my caramels are so soft that i can easily cut them with the guitar :-)

Interesting that someone said on the other thread that Genin's caramels stayed more solid at room temp. than did Kerry's. I wonder if this implies a higher sugar cooking temp. and perhaps more butter?

I'm also wondering about something that David Lebovitz said in his Jacques Genin article when describing caramels: "Caramel is a combination of cooked sugar, usually with butter or cream added." It's that word 'OR' that's getting me. I have never heard of a caramel deglazed with just butter - no cream. Has anyone heard of such a thing? Could this be the magic?

[tmriga]

My French is as rusty as the 110-year-old iron fence at my front yard, so please bear with me.

I read through the recipe in the link that mostlylana posted for, and I have two questions.

Is creme liquide heavy cream or light cream?
And would I be correct to say that sucre cristal is granulated sugar?

Thanks!

Theresa

[gap]

dry caramelize, but not too dark, but i didnt noisette the butter....
my caramels are so soft that i can easily cut them with the guitar :-)

schneich - I assume with caramels that soft they need to be wrapped. How do you store them after that? In the fridge or just at room temperature.

I have to give these a go soon!!!!

[mostlylana]

My French is as rusty as the 110-year-old iron fence at my front yard, so please bear with me.

I read through the recipe in the link that mostlylana posted for, and I have two questions.

Is creme liquide heavy cream or light cream?
And would I be correct to say that sucre cristal is granulated sugar?

Thanks!

Theresa

I found the site again and this time brought it up translated. Hopefully that will make it more understandable!

http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.mortenharket-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php%3Ft%3D740%26start%3D0%26sid%3Dcd11e776eaa284da48eba10475cce0a6&ei=bO3cSuv_E5HQtgPLj5SZDg&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&ved=0CAsQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DLa%2Bguimauve%2Bmorten%2Bjacques%2Bgenin%2Bmangue%26hl%3Den

[mrose]

what do you mean by noisetting the butter?

[Edward J]

I am reading this thread with great interest.

My experiences with caramels has been a fairly new one, but I make "Grewling's" recipie about once a week fo the last two years.

This summer I wanted to try fruit caramels. I made the mistake of using Fachschule Richemont's recipie--not enough glucose, and as a result, the caramels crystalized within a week.

Next attmept was "Grewling's" recipie, but his uses condensed milk--a flavour that I can't stand, so I subbed coffee cream (10% bf) and with the fuit puree (I used blueberry) I also added dried blueberies). The flavour was so-so, BUT......

Within 3 weeks the caramels had crystalized

I've never had "Grewling's" recipie crystalize on me yet, and his fruit carmael had similiar sugar to glucose ratio.

What am I doing wrong here?


I must admit, that I am subbing corn syrup for gucose, and while I do have a (rather large..) apil of 42 DE glcose, I take the lazy way and use the more liquid corn syrup. I also find if I do use the glucose, I have a "weird, stale" flavour as opposed to corn sryup. I also cook mine to 115, which I find is firm enough to cut (I use a large kife and friction--always a clean cut) but soft enough to enjoy.
Schneich, what's the sodium bicarb. for in our recipies?

[gap]

what do you mean by noisetting the butter?

I assume that means browning the butter

[John DePaula]

yep.

[schneich]

i keep all my trials in clingfilm at room temp. i think you definately need to have both cream and butter ;-) i hope the 100 glucose is enough to prevent crystallization. since i really dislike the stickyness of glucose i will try invert sugar if my caramel shows signs of crystallization. to keep the emulsion stable i also thought of adding some "glice" from the texturas range...

[schneich]

for what exact reason the sodium bicarb. is added ?? it was in the original morato recipe so i put it in... does it act as some kind of catalyst to prevent further inverting of the sugar, or does it contribute to the caramel flavour ????

[mostlylana]

Adding a base (an alkaline ingredient such as baking soda) helps accelerate the Maillard reaction.

Maillard reaction = flavour - yum!

[Lior]

Is it possible that he adds some cocoa butter to keep it firm and yet soft at room temp?
Thanks for that link Lana!

[Edward J]

Schneich, I remember reading somewhere that adding Trimoline (invert Sugar) in liquids over 100 C would make the Invert sugar loose it's properties. For the life of me, I can't remember WHERE I read this. Is this a myth?

[John DePaula]

Schneich, I remember reading somewhere that adding Trimoline (invert Sugar) in liquids over 100 C would make the Invert sugar loose it's properties. For the life of me, I can't remember WHERE I read this. Is this a myth?

You read this in Wybauw. I believe the number is 70C and it "loses its water sequestering ability."

[mostlylana]

Is it possible that he adds some cocoa butter to keep it firm and yet soft at room temp?
Thanks for that link Lana!

I was thinking the exact same thing!! Hmmmmmmmmmm........

[schneich]

you guys are just great :-)
@lior: i thought of that too, does anyone know if it would make sense to add cocoa butter ??

[mostlylana]

...does anyone know if it would make sense to add cocoa butter ??

Take a look at this link: https://amellacarame...ngredients.html

And then notice in the nutrition facts here: https://amellacarame...iton_Facts.html that the cocoa butter is listed after the butter - so more dairy butter than cocoa butter...

[gap]

for what exact reason the sodium bicarb. is added ?? it was in the original morato recipe so i put it in... does it act as some kind of catalyst to prevent further inverting of the sugar, or does it contribute to the caramel flavour ????

I was told that bicard soda aids the emulsion

[NickLam]

The trimoline from Lebbe does not lose its abilities until 130 degrees, and I will try to confirm that from any tech. sheets I can find. When you look at that French Forum recipe stating that its Jacques Genin's, it does seem a bit dodgy that the actual finishing temperatures are not there. However, the recipe says to cook it for 45 minutes, and that length of time, with the sugar and the acid from the passionfruit should cause partial inversion of the sugar shouldn't it?

This, combined with the glucose might just be the secret behind the Genin caramels. I remembered that the Mango Passion one does not have that pronounced a caramel flavour. The texture from Kerry's caramel is soft and not chewy at all, very nice, but not as unctous as Genin's. Looks like its time to replace the batteries in my digital probe and do some caramel makin' this sunday!

Wrote to Harold McGhee a few months back asking him about the science behind caramels, but have yet to get a reply :-( Now, if only someone could get Heston Blumenthal to drop him a line.......

[schneich]

nick please try to explain unctous... :-/ even though iam still at the original recipe, not the fruit one. i now did several more batches, but i seems liek my caramel is not as homogenous as i would like, when you cut it and look really close you can see its a tiny little bit grainy... dunno where that comes from... my guess is that iam over the top with the fat content...does anyone know how much fat can be put in a caramel that is cooked to 116c, the water content is the same anyway, also my caramels are quite greasy to the touch, genins are a little bit greasy as well, but only very slightly

here is my last attempt:



caramel genin type 3.0

1000g fresh cream 35%
750g sucrose
100g glucose
400g butter
2g sodium bicarbonate

i boil the cream with glucose and sugar
dry caramelize the sugar, cook to 114c add the butter
and bring it to 116c pour in frame...