405 replies to this topic

[Busboy]

I can't think of anyone else who has done more to shape America's modern culinary direction than Alice Waters  - other than possibly beloved Julia (I've had this debate; not having it again.  ) 

Sorry. I missed the debate!
What is it exactly that she did that has changed things?

She helped create the market for heirloom beans.

Hey, how come you don't sell tarbais, anyway?

[lala]

Encouraging organic gardening so that pesticides don't ruin the earth and our bodies - bad?
Encouraging children to garden so that they know where their food comes from - bad?
Linking gardening, cooking and science lessons in schools - bad?
Experiencing culture, history, language, ecology, and mathematics through the preparation of food - bad?
Believing in your message and practicing what you preach - bad?
Mentoring dozens of the best chefs, who then go on to mentor others - bad?

Yeah, she's a real byotch.

[weinoo]

Sorry. I missed the debate!
What is it exactly that she did that has changed things?

My goal is to support Northern California agriculture but there are some instances where the best quality means sourcing outside of my state.

Above quote from the Rancho Gordo website sounds strangely familiar...was that website around 30 years ago?

[rancho_gordo]

Sorry. I missed the debate!
What is it exactly that she did that has changed things?

My goal is to support Northern California agriculture but there are some instances where the best quality means sourcing outside of my state.

Above quote from the Rancho Gordo website sounds strangely familiar...was that website around 30 years ago?

Are you crediting her for that? The localvore movement?
I'm not saying she wasn't a part of it, I just want to make sure I understand your point.

From Busboy:

She helped create the market for heirloom beans. laugh.gif

Then I owe her big time!

Hey, how come you don't sell tarbais, anyway?

Have you had them? They're no big whoop, as we used to say. And a horrendous yield. Come next winter, try the white runners we'll have and you'll be happy. I think I've seen true Tarbais for up to $30 a pound.

[weinoo]

My point, as I stated in the first post of this topic, was:

It seems like barely a week goes by without some sort of backlash/tirade against Alice Waters.

And I'm trying to understand that. I'm glad it's acknowledged that she was at least part of the reason for the local food movement, as well as the movement to support sustainable agriculture, community gardens, nutritional education and cooking eggs over a fire.

[Sneakeater]

There's an Alice Waters backlash because she won't acknowledge this:

You might be surprised to find that there are plenty of people out there -- hard-working, decent people with limited free time trying to feed their families and stay sane -- who think those who are down on fast food are paternalistic, condescending and out-of-touch. They are grateful for the convenience that the chains offer.

[andiesenji]

I have long been appalled at the "trashing" of Alice Waters by people who should know better, but the fact that they say or write these things, shows that they haven't a clue, much less good manners.

I first visited her restaurant back in the mid '70s, not a long time after it had opened and my friends and I were impressed. (A group of women attending a writers conference for women in Berkeley.)

She has been generous with her time in advising and helping the Berkeley school system to greatly improve the food served in the school cafeterias, resulting in much healthier children.

My daughter and a group of her students, who are participants in the Jefferson awards program attempting to improve the school cafeteria offerings in the Livermore school system, were invited to meet with her last month and were treated with courtesy and given a significant amount of her time and a great deal of help.

Incidentally, they won the top award for the State of California and will be going to D.C. for the national competition in June.

This fact alone, that she is not just hyping the use of fresh, locally grown foods, for her own profit, but for the betterment of her community and others, is enough to convince me that she is doing it right.
Anyone who thinks differently is either unable to comprehend the importance of her contributions or DOESN'T want to believe because they want to sell their articles.

[weinoo]

There's an Alice Waters backlash because she won't acknowledge this:

You might be surprised to find that there are plenty of people out there -- hard-working, decent people with limited free time trying to feed their families and stay sane -- who think those who are down on fast food are paternalistic, condescending and out-of-touch. They are grateful for the convenience that the chains offer.

Yet it is also true that perhaps due to AW's approach, many of those same fast food chains now offer "healthier" options, something which few, if any, did a mere 20 years ago.

[weinoo]

The NY Post, never afraid to steal a story while it's in play, joins the fray...GOURMONSTERS. Of course, they came up with a much better title than Ozersky could have. And they break the news thusly:

It's not enough that you should simply eat your fruit and veggies. No, in order to be virtuous they first must be preceded by fashionable adjectives such as local, organic and sustainable -- recession be damned.

[djyee100]

She has been generous with her time in advising and helping the Berkeley school system to greatly improve the food served in the school cafeterias, resulting in much healthier children.

I would add that her work and words inspire others to do what they can towards the ideals she espouses. Last year I was taking a cooking class in Berkeley, and I got into a conversation with the sous-chef for the class, an older guy and obviously a professional. He said he was a former exec chef, now retired, and he volunteered his time to teach Berkeley school kids how to cook. He told me he loved teaching those kids. I wonder if he would have had the idea to teach school kids to cook, or he would have had the opportunity to do so in the Berkeley public schools, if it weren't for Alice Waters.

[lala]

There's an Alice Waters backlash because she won't acknowledge this:

You might be surprised to find that there are plenty of people out there -- hard-working, decent people with limited free time trying to feed their families and stay sane -- who think those who are down on fast food are paternalistic, condescending and out-of-touch. They are grateful for the convenience that the chains offer.

Yeah, fast food rocks. Until the diabetes sets in and the heart attacks start.

[faine]

I'm on the fence. I like her, I like her restaurant, and I think her contributions to the whole notion of locally sourced eating to an urban audience have been useful and valuable. From my meager understanding Chez Panisse pioneered the California cuisine movement that has now found its way into just about everything, and props for that. Although I really don't care to know the name, personality, and favorite color of the cow I am eating when it comes to that.

I also agree that she ain't the messenger the local and organic food movements need. She may be a wonderful woman but she simply isn't a populist, and she's not going to bring outsiders into the fold. As previously stated, she's going to have to figure out a way to address the aforementioned single-mom-on-welfare audience. As it is now, she's going to have a time getting them NOT to see her as a deity descending from Berkeley to preach among them. Good luck. She has a lot of good, lofty, and aesthetically pleasing ideas that need some serious tweaking before they have a hope in hell of succeeding in the real world.

I do think the Edible Schoolyard idea is great. We have one in New Orleans that is doing cool things. I hope to volunteer with them next year.

And yes, a meal of Coke and fish sticks really is cheaper then a meal composed of healthy food. Ask this poverty ridden college student about the price differential between fresh, good food and junk any day.

The Gourmonsters bit was a hoot.

Edited by faine, 22 April 2009 - 04:14 PM.

[Fat Guy]

The backlash against Alice Waters, Michael Pollan and others of their ilk, such as it is, has occurred during the recent recession. I think that's too much of a coincidence to ignore. Right now anybody who has a message on the order of "pay more, eat less" (I think Pollan actually said those words or something close) is not as likely to be tolerated as he or she would have been two years ago.

My own consumer behavior and feelings track these macroeconomic changes. A couple of years ago, for example, I was buying organic eggs. It just didn't seem like a big deal to me to pay more for them. I figured I have a young child, I should do what I can. Now, I go grocery shopping and I see organic eggs for $3.99 a dozen when the conventional ones are $1.50, and I think, you know what, I'm not buying the organic ones until I'm presented with compelling evidence that they're better -- and as far as I know no such evidence exists. They don't taste better either. (Usually they taste worse simply because they're not as fresh.) You have to escalate to even more expensive Greenmarket eggs before you get flavor improvement that's only evident in some preparations anyway.

And I'm not exactly poor. I'm not all that well off but if I really needed to pay $3.99 for eggs instead of $1.50, I could. But real working-class people with families to feed don't have that luxury. When you multiply that kind of purchasing decision by the 30 products someone might pick up when shopping for a family, you're talking about the difference between $45 and $120 for a grocery bill. Week after week that can add up to several thousand dollars a year. We have something like 1/5 American households with household incomes under $20,000, if I'm reading the chart correctly.

Of course Alice Waters and Michael Pollan know all this, and it's an oversimplification of their positions to say that they're just asking poor people to spend more on food. It also radically overstates Alice Waters's significance and impact to say that fast-food chains have added healthy-menu options because of her, or really that any major changes have occurred because of her. She's one person in a large movement that would have been just fine without her, albeit perhaps a little different at the margins. She no more deserves the credit for that movement's accomplishments than she does the blame for its failings.

[weinoo]

Now, I go grocery shopping and I see organic eggs for $3.99 a dozen when the conventional ones are $1.50, and I think, you know what, I'm not buying the organic ones until I'm presented with compelling evidence that they're better -- and as far as I know no such evidence exists. They don't taste better either. (Usually they taste worse simply because they're not as fresh.) You have to escalate to even more expensive Greenmarket eggs before you get flavor improvement that's only evident in some preparations anyway.

That's bs. The Greenmarket eggs I buy are $3.75 a dozen. In my "supermarket," eggs are from $2.25 - $2.50 a dozen, and even when they get a delivery, are already at least 7 days old. That makes the Greenmarket eggs about .$15 more a piece. Now, I don't know how many eggs you eat a day, but it's not adding up to that much more a year. And the taste is incomparable.

She's one person in a large movement that would have been just fine without her, albeit perhaps a little different at the margins. She no more deserves the credit for that movement's accomplishments than she does the blame for its failings.

Please tell me who else is responsible, in this country, for the beginning of the "movement."

[Alcuin]

Please tell me who else is responsible, in this country, for the beginning of the "movement."

One person doesn't make a movement. I'm not exactly sure what "movement" we're talking about here, but the organic and local foods movement has roots in a pre-WWII response to the mechanization of agriculture and it only increased post-WWII as the technology ramped up. Alice Waters stepped into the ready flow of a movement. She didn't make history, she was just a part of it (like the rest of us).

[weinoo]

Please tell me who else is responsible, in this country, for the beginning of the "movement."

One person doesn't make a movement. I'm not exactly sure what "movement" we're talking about here, but the organic and local foods movement has roots in a pre-WWII response to the mechanization of agriculture and it only increased post-WWII as the technology ramped up. Alice Waters stepped into the ready flow of a movement. She didn't make history, she was just a part of it (like the rest of us).

Wow, I'd like to see some sort of research that shows the organic "movement" started pre-WWII. Not referring, of course, to backyard gardeners, who have always been the backbone of the local, organic movement.

[Alcuin]

Please tell me who else is responsible, in this country, for the beginning of the "movement."

One person doesn't make a movement. I'm not exactly sure what "movement" we're talking about here, but the organic and local foods movement has roots in a pre-WWII response to the mechanization of agriculture and it only increased post-WWII as the technology ramped up. Alice Waters stepped into the ready flow of a movement. She didn't make history, she was just a part of it (like the rest of us).

Wow, I'd like to see some sort of research that shows the organic "movement" started pre-WWII. Not referring, of course, to backyard gardeners, who have always been the backbone of the local, organic movement.

OK, so the ideas are there, people have talked about them, the response to mechanization of agriculture is there, people are talking about the importance of local food, but until it's christened a movement by your hero, Alice Waters, the movement is invented yet? Alice Waters is a restaurateur, not the creator of a "movement" out of the void.

So, when do you begin the "organic farming movement" (or whatever) if you don't accept that it has early 20th century roots? At the opening of Chez Panisse? Really?

Perhaps Alice Waters is the first figure you can recall for the beginning of a "movement," but that doesn't make her the beginning of it in anyone's mind but yours. Why don't we say the organic movement began with the publication of _Organic Farming_ edited by Wendell Berry then? Because that publication is not beginning a movement, it's just publicizing it and, yes, perhaps opening it up into a wider audience, but not beginning it because it was already there to be talked about (just like it was already there to be turned into a restaurant).

[CaliPoutine]

That's bs. The Greenmarket eggs I buy are $3.75 a dozen. In my "supermarket," eggs are from $2.25 - $2.50 a dozen, and even when they get a delivery, are already at least 7 days old. That makes the Greenmarket eggs about .$15 more a piece. Now, I don't know how many eggs you eat a day, but it's not adding up to that much more a year. And the taste is incomparable.

This is a picture I took at the Ferry Plaza Market in SF, last month. Am I the only one who thinks paying 7.00 for a dozen eggs is ridiculous?

[weinoo]

Am I the only one who thinks paying 7.00 for a dozen eggs is ridiculous?

I don't know. The farmer must be selling them to someone.

I think it's ridiculous to pay xxxx for yyyy. So I don't buy yyy.

[daisy17]

The backlash against Alice Waters, Michael Pollan and others of their ilk, such as it is, has occurred during the recent recession. I think that's too much of a coincidence to ignore. Right now anybody who has a message on the order of "pay more, eat less" (I think Pollan actually said those words or something close) is not as likely to be tolerated as he or she would have been two years ago.

My own consumer behavior and feelings track these macroeconomic changes. A couple of years ago, for example, I was buying organic eggs. It just didn't seem like a big deal to me to pay more for them. I figured I have a young child, I should do what I can. Now, I go grocery shopping and I see organic eggs for $3.99 a dozen when the conventional ones are $1.50, and I think, you know what, I'm not buying the organic ones until I'm presented with compelling evidence that they're better -- and as far as I know no such evidence exists. They don't taste better either. (Usually they taste worse simply because they're not as fresh.) You have to escalate to even more expensive Greenmarket eggs before you get flavor improvement that's only evident in some preparations anyway.

And I'm not exactly poor. I'm not all that well off but if I really needed to pay $3.99 for eggs instead of $1.50, I could. But real working-class people with families to feed don't have that luxury. When you multiply that kind of purchasing decision by the 30 products someone might pick up when shopping for a family, you're talking about the difference between $45 and $120 for a grocery bill. Week after week that can add up to several thousand dollars a year. We have something like 1/5 American households with household incomes under $20,000, if I'm reading the chart correctly.

We all make choices about the food we're going to eat, every day. I prefer to pay more for eggs from chickens that weren't given antibiotics and raised in disgusting living conditions. Same goes for hormones in my meat, and I don't believe in supporting factory farming. Bottom line is that recession or not, for decades, people have been spending less and less of their income on food. They want it cheap, and as a result consume gallons of soda, eat packaged crap, and have dinner at McDonalds. There is a cost for that, namely 200 lb 10 year olds with type 2 diabetes. Even if you're not spending the money on organic, locally grown produce (and I'm not telling anyone they should), you can eat food that's more healthy than McDonalds. Again, this is not an all-or-nothing proposition.

Waters' work (and her Foundation's work) on school lunch programs (and involving kids in the food growing process) is the exact opposite of an elitist message.

[Busboy]

Have you had them? They're no big whoop, as we used to say. And a horrendous yield. Come next winter, try the white runners we'll have and you'll be happy. I think I've seen true Tarbais for up to $30 a pound.

I tend to use flagelots (yours) when making cassoulet (and at other times); that's the only occasion I've seen the specifically called for and I have indeed noticed the ungodly prices asked for them, if you can even find them in the U.S.

The backlash against Alice Waters, Michael Pollan and others of their ilk, such as it is, has occurred during the recent recession.

Always ahead of the curve, I found her annoying long ago. (Nice pic).

Wow, I'd like to see some sort of research that shows the organic "movement" started pre-WWII. Not referring, of course, to backyard gardeners, who have always been the backbone of the local, organic movement.

Not organic per se, but in The United States of Arugula, David Kamp traces the larger "movement" back to James Beard, Julia, Clairborn, Olney and a few others whose names I forget -- who preceded Alice -- and also the Dean and DeLuca guys, Moosewood etc who were more or less contemporaneous.

To the extent that fast food restaurants and other institutions are offering "healthier" alternatives, I suspect that's a completely different tributary, far more concerned with arid nutrition and just being thin than any of the larger issues Alice embodies.

****

To Fat Guy's larger point, I've had this discussion here before. There is a certain strain of food person, invariably affluent, who thinks that they're saving the world by eating artisanal cheese and $5 ramps, and that everybody else should follow their enlightened lead. It hugely self-indulgent and wildly arrogant and it turns people off. I don't think Alice is anywhere near the worst I've stumbled across in this regard but I'm sure that, for some people, she embodies this attitude.

It don't really dislike Alice. I agree with much of what she says. I just find her grating.

It's like, as a card-carrying liberal, I agree with Al Gore. But he, too, bug the heck out of me.

Edited by Busboy, 23 April 2009 - 07:10 AM.

[slkinsey]

Wow, I'd like to see some sort of research that shows the organic "movement" started pre-WWII.

From the Wikipedia entry:

• In Germany Rudolf Steiner's Spiritual Foundations for the Renewal of Agriculture, published in 1924, led to the popularization of biodynamic agriculture, probably the first comprehensive organic farming system, that was based on Steiner's spiritual and philosophical teachings.
• The first use of the term "organic farming" is by Lord Northbourne (aka Walter James, 4th Baron Northbourne). The term derives from his concept of "the farm as organism", which he expounded in his book, Look to the Land (1940), and in which he described a holistic, ecologically balanced approach to farming. Northbourne wrote of "chemical farming versus organic farming".
• Sir Albert Howard's 1940 book, An Agricultural Testament, was influential in promoting organic techniques, and his 1947 book "The Soil and Health, A Study of Organic Agriculture" adopted Northbourne's terminology and was the first book to include "organic" agriculture or farming in its title.
• In 1939, strongly influenced by Sir Howard's work, Lady Eve Balfour launched the Haughley Experiment on farmland in England. It was the first, side-by-side comparison of organic and conventional farming. Four years later, she published The Living Soil, based on the initial findings of the Haughley Experiment. It was widely read, and lead to the formation of a key international organic advocacy group, the Soil Association.

(Emphasis added for clarity)

Then, in 1962 we have Rachel Carson's Silent Spring. This book turned out to be based on a far amount of junk science, and the subsequent ban on DDT is responsible for literally millions of human deaths from malaria, but this book is largely credited with starting the envirionmental movement in earnest, and was hugels influential on organics in the United States.

Alice Waters, meanwhile, was 18 years old in 1962, and didn't open Chez Panisse until 1971.

The International Federation of Organic Agriculture Movements was officially founded in 1972 one year later. Alice must have worked pretty fast.

Edited by slkinsey, 23 April 2009 - 08:15 AM.

[rancho_gordo]

The eggs in SF are partly from demand. The few vendors that have them sell out early in the day, week after week. We have 17 chickens and my conclusion is that I don't understand. Maybe there's some weird health department fee or something. It boggles the mind.

re food prices and the Big Picture, according to Pollan, the system is broken and on it's last legs. We're all going to need to pay more to make it work and benefit everyone. At least that's my understanding. He's not telling everyone, rich and poor, to buy $5 ramps.

As a Bay Area native, my recollection is that Waters has been very much in the background until Slow Food. She had some great books and I think she made a canning video but you didn't see or hear her all over the place the way you have in the last 5 years or so. I think she is very sincere and I think she is very human and I wonder if it's hard for some who have made her an icon now hear some of her more human remarks and wonder what the hell she's doing.

I think she needs some media coaching and needs to find a way to adapt her message for our times and really find out what makes people excited and bring it to a real food movement. When she did the egg in the spoon trick, I really think she thought she was going to impress people, not turn them off.

Edited by rancho_gordo, 23 April 2009 - 07:56 AM.

[HungryC]

Amen to everything SL Kinsey just posted regarding the roots of "organic", with the addition of JI Rodale, who first published Organic Gardening magazine in the US in 1942.

[MikeHartnett]

I don't have a whole lot to add to what's been said, but there are a few points I'd like to bring up or back up:

First, I find it irritating when Californians (including Waters) insist on everyone eating locally-raised, organic smiley-happy-rainbow food all the time. California is not like the rest of the country, or most of the world. If we in the unfortunate non-California parts of the world want to eat relatively diverse foods, and have a healthy and interesting diet, sometimes we need to look elsewhere. It's easy to preach this sort of thing when you have a world of food at your fingertips. Notice that these high priests of locavorism, almost without exception, are from California. No coincidence.

Second, and although it is hard to comprehend, not everyone cares that much about what they eat. Just like there are people who don't care about fashion, or music, or what kind of car they drive, some people treat food as fuel. It's difficult enough for me to try and eat locally, or organically, and food is close to all I think about. If you just don't care that much, you're not going to pass up the closest Mickey D's for an hour's perusal of what's looking good at the farmer's market. Just not gonna happen.

Third, and most Waters-specific, most of these people are perceived as unbearably condescending by the average person. Say you live in Podunk, Illinois, and all that's local is soybeans and corn, and you feel like a cheeseburger. When Alice Waters and Michael Pollan tell you the cheeseburger didn't come from a locally-raised cow, and the bun was baked in Indiana, and you should really be eating a homemade soy burger and some corn on the cob you bought from the neighboring farmer, you don't smile and see the error of your ways. You say that your Wal-Mart salary and six kids mean you get a damn cheeseburger and you don't have time to make some hippie soy burger. You say it's nice and all to think that way, but in Podunk, Illinois the Garden of Eden is not growing in your backyard, and even if it were, I like McDonald's, thank you very much.

Anyway. That's my piece.

Edited by MikeHartnett, 23 April 2009 - 08:24 AM.

[weinoo]

Okay, so basically what is being said is:

1) the backlash is because she's a condescending, holier-than-thou, preachy, annoying person (like, ummm, maybe a few of us on eG, myself included).

2) The organic movement started way before AW, so she has nothing at all to do with the fact that there are more small farms trying to "do-the-right-thing" now, than say, 20 years ago.

3) We shouldn't be trying to teach kids anything about eating healthy or where their food comes from.

4) Everyone that loves that juicy, delicious pork, grass-fed beef, ramps, heirloom tomatoes, etc. is basically a pompous ass.

What did I miss?

[daisy17]

Okay, so basically what is being said is:

1) the backlash is because she's a condescending, holier-than-thou, preachy, annoying person (like, ummm, maybe a few of us on eG, myself included).

2) The organic movement started way before AW, so she has nothing at all to do with the fact that there are more small farms trying to "do-the-right-thing" now, than say, 20 years ago. 

3) We shouldn't be trying to teach kids anything about eating healthy or where their food comes from.

4) Everyone that loves that juicy, delicious pork, grass-fed beef, ramps, heirloom tomatoes, etc. is basically a pompous ass.

What did I miss?

Nope, you got it all. Makes perfect sense.

(Not understanding how a bunch of egulleters are the ones espousing these positions; kind of expected better.)

[paulraphael]

I don't follow Ms. Waters very closely, but I can't help suspecting there's a lot of straw-man arguing going on here. Does she really scold people in inner cities and in northern midwestern states for not eating local organic food? Or is she trying to reform food culture in a way that allows people in these situations to eat local organic food?

There's a big difference. As strident as her tone may seem to some, I have trouble believing she's stupid.

And everyone arguing that she didn't invent the organic food movement .... please. The civil rights movement existed for decades before MLK Jr. was born. Does this make him irrelevant?

It's clear from this thread that her tone rubs a lot of people the wrong way. That's too bad. What's worse is if people dismiss a message purely because the messenger bugs them.

Edited by paulraphael, 23 April 2009 - 08:59 AM.

[Busboy]

Okay, so basically what is being said is:

1) the backlash is because she's a condescending, holier-than-thou, preachy, annoying person (like, ummm, maybe a few of us on eG, myself included).

2) The organic movement started way before AW, so she has nothing at all to do with the fact that there are more small farms trying to "do-the-right-thing" now, than say, 20 years ago. 

3) We shouldn't be trying to teach kids anything about eating healthy or where their food comes from.

4) Everyone that loves that juicy, delicious pork, grass-fed beef, ramps, heirloom tomatoes, etc. is basically a pompous ass.

What did I miss?

Oh, c'monnnnnnnnn. Outside of #1, nobody has said any of those things.

And, as for myself, I merely said that anyone who thinks their enjoyment of expensive (and often quite tasty) enviro-friendly products makes them virtuous paragons for all to follow is a pompous ass. If you just want to eat the stuff and be reasonably pleased about it, that's lovely. I'll be by at seven with something bubbly (and bio-dynamic).

And, in the spirit of confession, I'll cop to being imperfect myself.

[slkinsey]

I like Alice Waters and the things she's done. I think her heart is in the right place, and I agree with most of the ideas she espouses.

To the extent that there is backlash against her, I think it's because of Mitch's #1 above: She can come across as preachy, condescending and unconnected to many of the economic and other realities of people who are not wealthy and don't live in California. I agree with rancho_gordo that really what she needs is just some media coaching.