100 replies to this topic

[Chris Hennes]

Twice-Cooked Pork (hui guo rou) (pp 194–196)
Fish-Fragrant Eggplant (yu xiang qie zi) (pp. 285–287)

Dinner was kind of a bust tonight, neither of these dishes was very successful. The pork I just though was one-dimensional: it tasted like fermented black beans and little else. The eggplant tasted great, but I overcooked them. No fault of the book's of course, I just let them deep fry too long, they wound up a mushy mess on the plate. The eggplant I'll be trying again, but the twice-cooked pork is probably not going to make my list. Does anyone have a better recipe for this? The writeup in the book makes it sound like a real classic dish.

The pork:


The eggplant:

[sheepish]

Those aubergine slices look very small. I've always done this as half an aubergine long. They shrink a bit when you cook, and they are slightly unweildy, but as I read it this is "correct". Or use whole slender aubergines, which I suspect may be more correct. Might also be why they came out over mushy?

My green beans tend to look a lot more marked and wrinkled after cooking than yours. No idea which it's supposed to be. I prefer the version without the minced pork, and loads of szechuan peppercorns, chilli and garlic.

I reckon I must have gone through about 90% of this book now, and the twice cooked pork is probably my least favourite, but then belly pork without crackling always seems a disappointment to me!

[Chris Hennes]

I agree about the green beans: I had some timing issues trying to get the noodles and beans on the plate at the same time, and so undercooked the beans (unnecessarily, it turned out, because the noodles took much longer to deal with than I expected).

Re-reading the eggplant recipe it seems like it does call for larger pieces of eggplant, but I'm not sure that's the change I'll make next time. I liked the size of the pieces, I just need to cook them less.

[Chris Hennes]

Chicken with Chiles (la zi ji) (pp. 240-241)

From the recipe:

The first time you encounter this dish, it appears terrifyingly spicy, the cubes of chicken surrounded by improbably quantities of blood-red chiles. But in fact, it's not particularly hot.

Lies! Lies, I say! Holy crap this was spicy. When you throw 2 oz (over 50 grams!) of dried chiles and a tablespoon of sichuan peppercorns into a hot wok it's like getting hit with pepper spray. And that heat does NOT stay in the chiles, contrary to Dunlop's assertion in the writeup. No, this dish was insanely spicy, no two ways about it. The taste was fabulous, but this is definitely not designed for the western palate. I can't make it with this level of chiles again: maybe a quarter as many would be more reasonable.

[OliverB]

looks gorgeous, but chilies can play tricks on one for sure! And it seems that even the same kind of chili can vary in hotness quite a bit. I've had dishes like this in restaurants where my first reaction was "where's the hidden camera, this must be a joke!" but they were not really all that spicy, even the chilies could be eaten w/o much pain. I don't think you can cook away much heat from chilies, can you? Maybe try a piece of one first, then adjust the quantity to something that seems reasonable.

But it's funny what is considered spicy in different cultures. There is (was?) an excellent Thai restaurant in the tiny town of Volcano on the Big Island, they told us that "hot" means "hot for Thai people hot" and that was very nice of them, as what we ate would have been completely inedible to me - and I like things spicy!

At the farmer's market there's a Mexican guy who eats Jalapenos like apples, one after the other. I'd be sweating blood and tears in no time

I really need to tackle this book, I'm in an Asian mood lately!

[nakji]

Well, spicy is a spectrum here. It is still a Sichuan dish. It's not so spicy if it doesn't feel like your face is going to fall off while you're eating it. Whenever I've had the lazi ji, the chilies have been cut into pieces, and have thus had a lot of their seeds knocked out of them before being cooked. This may make a less spicy dish. What kind of chilies did you use?

I've made the twice cooked pork a couple of times and quite liked it. This dish has so few ingredients, though, that you need good quality black bean sauce and rich, fatty pork belly.

Also, these dishes aren't meant to stand alone; they should be balanced by other dishes at the table. I find providing a pickled vegetable along with the rice and a fried green helps balance the flavours/spice.

[C. sapidus]

Chicken with Chiles (la zi ji) (pp. 240-241)

From the recipe:

The first time you encounter this dish, it appears terrifyingly spicy, the cubes of chicken surrounded by improbably quantities of blood-red chiles. But in fact, it's not particularly hot.

Lies! Lies, I say! Holy crap this was spicy. When you throw 2 oz (over 50 grams!) of dried chiles and a tablespoon of sichuan peppercorns into a hot wok it's like getting hit with pepper spray. And that heat does NOT stay in the chiles, contrary to Dunlop's assertion in the writeup. No, this dish was insanely spicy, no two ways about it. The taste was fabulous, but this is definitely not designed for the western palate. I can't make it with this level of chiles again: maybe a quarter as many would be more reasonable.

This is one of our family's favorites, so I am sorry it did not work out for you. You may want to try again with milder chiles - we use an un-named red chile from the Indian market that has a nice mix of flavor and heat.

And, as Nakji says, this stuff is designed to be eaten with lots of rice.

[Will]

Those aubergine slices look very small. I've always done this as half an aubergine long. They shrink a bit when you cook, and they are slightly unweildy, but as I read it this is "correct". Or use whole slender aubergines, which I suspect may be more correct. Might also be why they came out over mushy?

I use the small Chinese eggplants, but I still slice them fairly small. There are a number of different ways to cut the eggplant for this dish, and I don't think any of them are necessarily "correct". But most methods I've seen do involve fairly small slices.

The big disadvantage of small slices for doing this at home is that the deep frying can take longer; if you're at a restaurant or own a deep fryer, this is obviously less of a problem.

[Chris Hennes]

I think I may just have the wrong kind of chiles: I know it's supposed to be a bit spicy, but that writeup sure sounds to me like it should be bearable, and probably less spicy than many of the other things I've made so far. I wouldn't really say the dish was a failure: as I mentioned, the taste is fantastic, Bruce I can understand why it would be a favorite. It was just that the spice got to be overwhelming.

So tonight, a totally different meal...

Sweet and Sour Pork (tan cu li ji) (pp. 210–211)
Not a chile in sight. I've made a number of "non-Westernized" versions of sweet-and-sour X, and I think this is my favorite so far. Too much sauce, but that's mostly because I foolishly dumped it all on there instead of adding a bit at a time. A really nice flavor combination, in my opinion. I served it with white rice (obviously) and a stir-fried cabbage based on her recipe for "Stir-fried potato slivers with chiles and sichuan pepper (qiang to dou si)" on page 297: the textural contrast was just right in this case, a good combination if you ask me.

[nakji]

That looks so good, I think I may have to go out for breakfast....

What kind of chilies were you using, Chris?

[Chris Hennes]

No idea, there wasn't any English on the bag except "Chile". Little red ones (real specific, I know).

[Chris Hennes]

(Incidentally, I started a WikiGullet Project article on Sichuan cuisine this evening... it's just an outline now, and I could sure use some help from someone who can type Chinese characters better than me!)

[Will]

Just avoid the dried Thai ones (I think Dunlop has a note about that in the book) -- they look similar, but are a lot hotter. Chaotianjiao ("Facing Heaven" peppers) are probably most appropriate, but I think they're a little hotter than the normal Chinese or Mexican dried red chilis, and harder to find. They are fairly spicy, but also have a pleasant flavor.

I usually do take some of the seeds out, especially when cooking for people who aren't big spicy food buffs. You know you're not supposed to eat the chilis, right?

Having tasted a fair bit of reasonably authentic Sichuan food, I think it's fair to say that Dunlop's book already tends to err a bit on the side of toning down the spice for the Western audience, and the dish is pretty much just chicken and hot peppers, so there are probably better dishes to try if it's too hot. I don't eat meat, but when I see this dish in restaurants, there are a lot of red chilis on the plate.

For what it's worth, your experience with the fumes is not unique. I have a pretty powerful range hood, but when those hot peppers are in the wok the fumes can get pretty toxic.

Edited by Will, 19 February 2011 - 10:31 PM.

[Chris Hennes]

Stir-Fried Pork Slivers with Sweet Fermented Paste (jing jiang rou si) (pp. 215–216)

I love the taste of sweet bean paste, so this dish was totally successful for me. I served it with "Tiger Skin Green Peppers (fu pi qing jiao)" (page 288), but my green peppers turned out to be flavorless crap, so that dish was a wash, though obviously no fault of the recipe's. I'll try it again when my garden starts producing peppers later this year.

[heidih]

And, as Nakji says, this stuff is designed to be eaten with lots of rice.

Agreed. Also I think when we put some of these recipes onto a traditional American plate of protein, veg and starch the balance may be off. Much of the cuisine is meant to be eaten in small amounts with lots of other flavor balancing dishes in quantities much smaller than the standard Western serving size. Makes it hard when you are just cooking for yourself and spouse as you are not about to put out a ton of dishes. I wonder if the cookbook authors consider this.

[liuzhou]

Living in China, I do find it somewhat odd to see Ms Dunlop's recipes plated up western style. Yes, Chinese food (as served in China) is not really suited for single people, but still, for two or more, it would be rare to serve just one dish. As heidih says, Chinese food "is meant to be eaten in small amounts with lots of other flavor balancing dishes"

I eat most lunches with my Chinese sister-in-law and there is never, ever just rice and one dish - and certainly not on one plate. (I doubt sis-in-law possesses a plate, as such.) Usually we have three or more dishes. What we don't eat (which is seldom much) gets re-served at the next meal.

I'm sure Ms Dunlop did consider this - she explains clearly how food is served from the Sichuan kitchen - both at home and in restaurants. At home, she says "A very low key dinner will have at least one dish per person..."

As to the laziji recipe. I don't see it as being over chillied at all. But I am lucky. I can get the right chillies.

Edited by liuzhou, 21 February 2011 - 09:10 AM.

[Chris Hennes]

The thought of making three (or more!) dishes every night for dinner is disheartening. I feel fortunate when I have the time and energy to cook two! The cultural divide may simply be too much for me.

[jmolinari]

I'm with Chris, making 3 dishes would be TOUGH...2 is tough enough.
How does one make multiple dishes without them cooling off and losing their "wok hei"?

[sheepish]

I generally aim for 1 meat and 2 veg when cooking from this, or the Revolutionary Chinese book - I frequently combine the two for a single menu. But I have often made quite a few more - especially veg dishes. All the prep is done in advance, then I just try and work out what is likely to hold in a low oven the best. Veg and fish I try to do after meat. Where dishes need deep frying and then braising in a sauce I do the deep frying first and make and stir in the sauces as close to final plating as I can. I'm not sure how much "wok hei" I lose but I don't notice much difference. My hob isnt big enough to take more than a single wok. I will sometimes be frying something like green beans in a frying pan whilst using the wok to cook other stuff.

[nakji]

The thought of making three (or more!) dishes every night for dinner is disheartening. I feel fortunate when I have the time and energy to cook two! The cultural divide may simply be too much for me.

I only ever cook two dishes plus rice on a weeknight for two people. It takes about 45 minutes end to end, but I'm fast with my knife and I have a good mental layout of how things will go. It's no worse for me than cooking a baked potato, a vegetable, and a chicken breast. Those are technically three different dishes. (Although to be fair - you just bung them in the oven and walk away.)

I don't find wok hei dissipates, but heat often can. I usually cook my green or pure veg dish first, because it mucks up the wok less, and then transfer that to a lidded dish on a warmer. Then the protein.

[Chris Hennes]

Dry-Fried Beef Slivers (gan bian niu rou si) (pp. 228–230)
I was a little nervous about just how long the beef was getting cooked here: "dry-fried" indeed! That said, the dish was actually very good, and I enjoyed the texture of the beef.

I've cropped the photo close to disguise the fact that I only made two dishes

[Will]

I'm with Chris, making 3 dishes would be TOUGH...2 is tough enough.
How does one make multiple dishes without them cooling off and losing their "wok hei"?

I will rarely do more than two dishes for two people, but I pulled off 4 or so dishes in about an hour and a half (had some help on the actual cooking of one dish), and I'm not as fast with a cleaver as I'd like to be. The trick is mostly to have some simple dishes in your back pocket that are quick to prep and quick to cook, and not to try to do too many really complicated dishes in one meal. I prep everything and pre-mix sauces first, and we've got a pretty hot flame, so it's not too much of a challenge to then cook all the dishes right before serving - in this way, you can cook 4 dishes in about 12-15 minutes max. Making some dishes that can be made ahead and served cold or at room temperature also helps (cucumber "salad", Shanghai style kau fu, Sichuan style pickled yard beans, bean sprout salad, and so on). And of course, soup can sit in a pot on the stove until it's ready to be served.

A few simple dishes that don't take too long to prep: leafy green vegetables with garlic (or fermented tofu), tomato and egg, vegetarian kidney and basil, potato strips (so many interesting regional variations on this). Washing and completely drying greens can be almost the slowest part for me about making leafy greens; I use a salad spinner, but if it's possible to wash them ahead of time, you can save yourself some time this way.

My girlfriend's parents (Chinese) often cover dishes with saran wrap after making them, or, if it's something that can handle being put in a low oven, you can keep the dish warm that way. But I've found that

I know that Grace Young claims that wok qi disappears quickly in her book; personally, I'm happy if I can get a little of that flavor in my dishes at home, and I've got a pretty high flame. Either way, I agree with others here that the flavor doesn't really seem to go away as much as she's saying.

Edited by Will, 21 February 2011 - 07:16 PM.

[Chris Hennes]

Yes, I'm sure that having some standby dishes that you can whip together quickly is a big part of the key. I am making every dish you see here for the first time: it takes easily twice as long the first time as the tenth, in my experience, so there are a lot of gains to be made by making the same dish many times. Of course, that's not how I cook, so I never achieve that level of proficiency with any one dish! So, two dishes plus rice is it for me.

[Chris Hennes]

Tai Bai Chicken (tai bai jin) (pp. 245–247)
Zucchini Slivers with Garlic (chao nan gua si) (pp. 303–304)
Pickled Vegetables (si chuan pao cai) (pp. 71–72)

Look, three dishes! I even served them separately instead of plating them all together. Of course, this was made possible by the addition of the pickled green beans. Unfortunately, I had intended to use those green beans for a pickled green bean and pork stir-fry, so they pickling procedure was a little different: it did not work at all as just a pickled vegetable, because they never fermented. Basically they were just very very salty green beans, not my cup of tea. The zucchini is a very simple stir fry of zucchini and garlic, pretty tough to screw up, it tasted pretty good. But the star of the show was clearly the Tai Bai Chicken, which was fantastic. I have nothing bad to say about it: it was spicy as hell, but not unexpectedly so, and not unbearably so, and it was balanced well by the sweetness of the dish (and a lot of rice!). I will definitely be making this again.

[nakji]

Nice work! (clapping)

How was the zucchini? And what do you think went wrong on the green bean front? I had that recipe tagged to try.

[CFT]

A balanced/rounded meal would not just consist of wok dishes. So disappearing wok hei should not be a problem. A "typical" family meal consisting of "3 dishes + 1 soup" could have 1 stir fried dish, 1 dish of veg., 1 steamed dish (e.g. fish, meat), 1 oven dish, etc.

Leafy greens I usually just blanch with garlic etc., splash of oil, in a big saucepan.

If I do 2 stir fried dishes, I do the meat or veg. ones first and keep warm in top oven. Seafood ones 2nd.

[Prawncrackers]

Nice Chris, you know this kind of Chinese food kinda just looks right presented this way rather than piled up all on one plate. It's purely psychological I know but I can see myself holding a bowl of rice to my mouth and eating those dishes now.

[liuzhou]

A balanced/rounded meal would not just consist of wok dishes. So disappearing wok hei should not be a problem. A "typical" family meal consisting of "3 dishes + 1 soup" could have 1 stir fried dish, 1 dish of veg., 1 steamed dish (e.g. fish, meat), 1 oven dish, etc.

Not in my experience of living in China.

At a typical family dinner there would normally be one soup (made in a wok), one stir fried dish (made in the same wok), the veg would also be stir fried (same wok). Steaming is relatively rare in home cooking (maybe some fish) and no one I have ever known in my 15 years in China has ever possessed an oven.

Edited by liuzhou, 24 February 2011 - 07:39 AM.

[Chris Hennes]

How was the zucchini? And what do you think went wrong on the green bean front? I had that recipe tagged to try.

There was not much to say about the zucchini: if you like zucchini and you like garlic, you'll like the dish. there's really not much to it.

The problem with the green beans was my owned damned fault: the recipe for the stir-fried pickled green beans says to use the normal pickling brine, but to only "pickle" them for three days, and do it in the refrigerator. Of course, for that short time and at those low temps, the beans don't "pickle" at all, in that there is no fermentation. So you just end up with brined green beans. I didn't really think about that when I changed my mind and decided to just serve them as a pickled vegetable: they weren't pickled! Doh.

[liuzhou]

Actually, when I think about it, I've never been served soup at a family dinner in China. In restaurants, yes.