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Late Night Dining in New York City


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#1 LPShanet

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 06:14 PM

After having a frustrating time yesterday finding somewhere to eat after midnight, I thought it would be worth starting a good late night eats thread here. My frustration is related to the fact that many supposedly late night places only really do the late night thing on certain days, usually weekends. For example, Tailor closed their kitchen and was only serving drinks. So for purposes of discussion, I thought I'd put forth the following parameters:

1. Places must be open at least until 12am on all weekdays that they're open. Preferably much later. In fact, we should mention hours, so the list is useful for those scavenging at 2am as well as midnight.

2. They should be serving at least some semblance of their regular menu. Some abbreviations are understandable, but a "just snacks" or heavily edited late night format isn't what we're talking about.

3. Let's limit the discussion to places that are upscale and/or ambitious "serious" restaurants. There are dozens of places in Chinatown, loads of pizzerias, and lots of diners with good meatloaf, etc. This thread is for the full on restaurants that are open later than you'd think, not the best of the usual late night fare. For example, Sushi Seki is an appropriate suggestion. Katz's Deli is not, much as I like it.

I'll start with a few:

Sushi Seki (3am)
Tsukushi (3am)
Blue Ribbon (Sushi till 2am still? Brasserie till 4am?)

Please chime in.

#2 greenfield

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 10:05 PM

Three sister restaurants are open late:
'ino on Bedford. High end sandwiches until 2 am. Might not be "serious" enough for you. Menu at http://www.cafeino.c..._bruschetta.php
'inoteca on Rivington and Ludlow. Full menu until 3 am, large Italian wine list. Check out the menu at http://www.inotecanyc.com/menu.php
Bar Milano on 24th and 3rd is open very late; a bar menu is available until even later. I would call to check the hours. http://barmilano.com

As you mentioned Blue Ribbon is a good call for good late night dining. However, it should be noted that while they may be "serious" their focus is comfort food. They have locations in both Brooklyn and Manhattan.

Grace on Franklin serves food until 4 am; it's been over five years since I've eaten there, but the food was very nice. http://www.gracebarandrestaurant.com/

The Odeon (2 am) on W. Broadway and Thomas is open late. Folks have strong feelings about Odeon, both positive and negative. The full menu is not available after midnight. http://www.theodeonrestaurant.com/

The Stanton Social (4 am) on Stanton definitely has a serious menu, but to call it "clubby" would be an understatement. http://www.thestantonsocial.com/

1 am places:

Resto on 29th. Really good food and good beers http://www.restonyc.com/

Balthazar is open until 1 am Monday-Thursday, and later on Friday and Saturday. http://www.balthazarny.com/

#3 kathryn

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 11:41 PM

Open past midnight on "off" days of the week:

Ditch Plains
Daily: 9am-2am

Landmarc (Tribeca and Time Warner Center locations)
Dinner daily: 4pm-2am

Momofuku Ssam Bar
dinner 5 pm - 2 am*
*sun - wed from 12am - 2am we offer
special wine, beer and sake selections
with an abbreviated food menu

Pastis
Supper
Sun-Thu: 12am-2am
Fri-Sat: 12am-2:30am

Schiller's
Late Supper
Mon-Wed: 12am-1am
Thu: 12am-2am
Fri-Sat: 12am-3am
Sun: 12am-1am

Balthazar
Dinner & Supper
Mon-Thu: 6pm-12:30am
Fri-Sat: 6pm-1:30am
Sun: 5:30pm-12am

Spotted Pig
Mon-Fri, noon-4am; Sat-Sun, 11am-4am

Blue Ribbon Brasserie Manhattan
Daily 5pm to 4am

Blue Ribbon Sushi Manhattan
Daily noon to 2am

Blue Ribbon Sushi Bar & Grill (Columbus Circle)
Daily: 5pm to 2am

Blue Ribbon Downing St Bar (Wine bar, small plates)
7 days a week 4 pm - 2 am

'ino
Daily, 9am-2am

'inoteca
Daily, 12pm-3am

Sushi Seki
Mon-Sat: 5:30pm-3am, Closed Sundays

Stanton Social
Mon-Wed, 5pm-2am; Thu-Fri, 5pm-3am; Sat, 11:30am-3am; Sun, 11:30am-2am

Lan
Mon-Sat: 5:30pm-2:30am
Sun: 5:30pm-11pm

Employees Only
Mon-Fri: 6pm-4am
Sat-Sun: 11am-4am

Centro Vinoteca
Mon-Fri, 9am-2am
Sat-Sun, 11am-2am

Gottino
Mon-Fri, 8am-2am
Sat-Sun, 11am-2am

Terroir (kitchen closes at 1am)
Mon-Sat, 5pm-2am
Sun, closed

dell’anima
Mon-Fri, 5:30pm-2am
Sat-Sun, 11am-3pm and 4pm-2am

Jimmy's No. 43
Sun-Thu: 3pm-2am
Fri-Sat: 3pm-4am

Spitzer's Corner
Daily, 11am-4am

Bar Jamon
Mon-Fri, 5pm-2am
Sat-Sun, noon-2am

Bar Veloce (Soho, Chelsea EV)
Open Daily 5pm-3am

Resto closes at 11:30pm Mon-Wed. Florent is done and gone. Mas Farmhouse scaled back their hours. Bar Milano only has a bar menu past midnight says the NYT and their web site is not very helpful in determining whether or not that includes some food. The Odeon closes at midnight on Sundays, does that still count? Sushi Seki is closed on Sundays, too, BTW.
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#4 LPShanet

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 01:16 AM

Three sister restaurants are open late:
'ino on Bedford. High end sandwiches until 2 am. Might not be "serious" enough for you. Menu at http://www.cafeino.c..._bruschetta.php
'inoteca on Rivington and Ludlow. Full menu until 3 am, large Italian wine list. Check out the menu at http://www.inotecanyc.com/menu.php
Bar Milano on 24th and 3rd is open very late; a bar menu is available until even later. I would call to check the hours. http://barmilano.com

As you mentioned Blue Ribbon is a good call for good late night dining. However, it should be noted that while they may be "serious" their focus is comfort food. They have locations in both Brooklyn and Manhattan.

Grace on Franklin serves food until 4 am; it's been over five years since I've eaten there, but the food was very nice. http://www.gracebarandrestaurant.com/

The Odeon (2 am) on W. Broadway and Thomas is open late. Folks have strong feelings about Odeon, both positive and negative. The full menu is not available after midnight. http://www.theodeonrestaurant.com/

The Stanton Social (4 am) on Stanton definitely has a serious menu, but to call it "clubby" would be an understatement. http://www.thestantonsocial.com/

1 am places:

Resto on 29th. Really good food and good beers http://www.restonyc.com/

Balthazar is open until 1 am Monday-Thursday, and later on Friday and Saturday. http://www.balthazarny.com/

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Great additions. Note: Resto is only open till 11:30 for most of the week (and often start closing before that).

#5 LPShanet

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 01:18 AM

Open past midnight on "off" days of the week:

Ditch Plains
Daily: 9am-2am

Landmarc (Tribeca and Time Warner Center locations)
Dinner daily: 4pm-2am

Momofuku Ssam Bar
dinner    5 pm - 2 am*
*sun - wed from 12am - 2am we offer
special wine, beer and sake selections
with an abbreviated food menu

Pastis
Supper
Sun-Thu: 12am-2am
Fri-Sat: 12am-2:30am

Schiller's
Late Supper
Mon-Wed: 12am-1am
Thu: 12am-2am
Fri-Sat: 12am-3am
Sun: 12am-1am

Balthazar
Dinner & Supper
Mon-Thu: 6pm-12:30am
Fri-Sat: 6pm-1:30am
Sun: 5:30pm-12am

Spotted Pig
Mon-Fri, noon-4am; Sat-Sun, 11am-4am

Blue Ribbon Brasserie Manhattan
Daily 5pm to 4am

Blue Ribbon Sushi Manhattan
Daily noon to 2am

Blue Ribbon Sushi Bar & Grill (Columbus Circle)
Daily: 5pm to 2am

Blue Ribbon Downing St Bar (Wine bar, small plates)
7 days a week 4 pm - 2 am

'ino
Daily, 9am-2am

'inoteca
Daily, 12pm-3am

Sushi Seki
Mon-Sat: 5:30pm-3am, Closed Sundays

Stanton Social
Mon-Wed, 5pm-2am; Thu-Fri, 5pm-3am; Sat, 11:30am-3am; Sun, 11:30am-2am

Lan
Mon-Sat: 5:30pm-2:30am
Sun: 5:30pm-11pm

Employees Only
Mon-Fri: 6pm-4am
Sat-Sun: 11am-4am

Centro Vinoteca
Mon-Fri, 9am-2am
Sat-Sun, 11am-2am

Gottino
Mon-Fri, 8am-2am
Sat-Sun, 11am-2am

Terroir (kitchen closes at 1am)
Mon-Sat, 5pm-2am
Sun, closed

dell’anima
Mon-Fri, 5:30pm-2am
Sat-Sun, 11am-3pm and 4pm-2am

Jimmy's No. 43
Sun-Thu: 3pm-2am
Fri-Sat: 3pm-4am

Spitzer's Corner
Daily, 11am-4am

Bar Jamon
Mon-Fri, 5pm-2am
Sat-Sun, noon-2am

Bar Veloce (Soho, Chelsea EV)
Open Daily 5pm-3am

Resto closes at 11:30pm Mon-Wed. Florent is done and gone. Mas Farmhouse scaled back their hours. Bar Milano only has a bar menu past midnight says the NYT and their web site is not very helpful in determining whether or not that includes some food. The Odeon closes at midnight on Sundays, does that still count? Sushi Seki is closed on Sundays, too, BTW.

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Wow. Nicely done! Although that's pretty thorough, anyone with further additions is certainly welcome to give it a shot.

#6 Sneakeater

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 08:25 AM

(and often start closing before that).

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This is key. There are a lot of places that SAY they're open till, say, 1. But you often get there at 12:30 and find they're already sweeping up and saying the kitchen is closed.

It's a problem that restaurants don't distinguish, when listing their hours, between "closing time" as in the time they hope everybody'll be done by or as in the time the kitchen closes. And that restaurants with purportedly late closing times will start to close earlier if the night manager doesn't think they're busy enough.

Edited by Sneakeater, 31 July 2008 - 09:32 AM.


#7 kathryn

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 09:01 AM

Fair enough. If I'm in doubt, I usually call, but of course, this doesn't help if the restaurant doesn't answer their phone or it goes straight to the machine.
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#8 LPShanet

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 12:44 PM

(and often start closing before that).

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This is key. There are a lot of places that SAY they're open till, say, 1. But you often get there at 12:30 and find they're already sweeping up and saying the kitchen is closed.

It's a problem that restaurants don't distinguish, when listing their hours, between "closing time" as in the time they hope everybody'll be done by or as in the time the kitchen closes. And that restaurants with purportedly late closing times will start to close earlier if the night manager doesn't think they're busy enough.

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This is an excellent point, and a MAJOR beef of mine. I can't count the number of times I've been to places and found them completely shut down well ahead of their stated hours. If they're going to list hours, I feel like they have an obligation to keep them, and not hedge when the night seems slow. If they're going to do that, they should at least let it be known that's their policy, so we can call and check somehow. And as has been pointed out, often no one answers the phone to confirm whether they're open or not at any given time.

#9 Nathan

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 01:16 PM

I can vouch that Dell'Anima doesn't even get busy until after 9...they're definitely still serving after 11 on weeknights...

#10 ASchepsman

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 01:55 PM

Smith & Mills (Greenwich St. and N Moore)
Dinner: Nightly, 5:00PM - 3:00AM
It's a pretty small menu (and space) during all hours, but they make some solid food... certainly TriBeCa prices, though...

I know you said 'upscale', but I do feel like Artichoke belongs on this list. They are definitely open past midnight and it's special enough to me that I find myself walking across the entire city for a slice of the square after a night out.
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#11 scottie

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 02:26 PM

I'm gonna pull for Huckleberry in Williamsburg. They serve food until 4 am, although the chef himself usually cuts out around 1.

It's a limited menu, but I think the food is good enough and the atmosphere shmancy enough to warrant listage here. Not to mention the pedigree:

Owners Stephanie and Andrew are Danny Meyer alumni, while Chef Seth Johnson did time at Resto.
The food is good and the cocktails are great; it's kind of like Stanton Social upstairs without the obnoxious scene.

#12 raji

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 03:10 PM

Sushi Seki (3am)
Tsukushi (3am)
Blue Ribbon (Sushi till 2am still?  Brasserie till 4am?)

Please chime in.


Aburiya Kinnosuke
Yakitori Totto
Riki/Donburiya/Sakagura
Typhoon

A lot of Japanese places that serve very good food also happen to be open quite late... Tsukushi and Seki are also 2 very good ones

Edited by raji, 31 July 2008 - 03:11 PM.


#13 LPShanet

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 03:21 PM

Sushi Seki (3am)
Tsukushi (3am)
Blue Ribbon (Sushi till 2am still?  Brasserie till 4am?)

Please chime in.


Aburiya Kinnosuke
Yakitori Totto
Riki/Donburiya/Sakagura
Typhoon

A lot of Japanese places that serve very good food also happen to be open quite late... Tsukushi and Seki are also 2 very good ones

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Great additions, Raji. Can you post the hours?

#14 raji

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 03:57 PM

Great additions, Raji.  Can you post the hours?


Aburiya Kinnosuke
213 E. 45th St., New York, NY 10017

Mon-Fri, 11:30am-2:30pm and 5:30pm-midnight; Sat, 5:30pm-midnight; Sun, 5:30pm-11:30pm

Yakitori Totto
251 W. 55th St., 2nd fl, New York, NY 10019

Mon-Thu, 5:30pm-1am; Fri-Sat, 5:30pm-2am; Sun, 5:30pm-midnight

Riki/Donburiya/Sakagura - Are all open until 2 or 4am on any given night. If one is shutting at 2am, they will send you to one of these others that is open until 4am

Typhoon Lounge
79 Saint Marks Pl

Sun-Thu 5pm-2am, Fri-Sat 5pm-3am

I'll post some non-Japanese places if I find some time... whatever happened to places like Match, La Jumelles, etc... besides diners, 10 years ago there were only a few places that were open until 4 or 5am with decent food...

#15 Fat Guy

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 05:17 PM

Bouley is probably the most ambitious restaurant that routinely stays open late. Yes, Bouley, the regular restaurant, not the casual Upstairs offshoot. Even on a Monday night, Bouley will accept an 11:15 or 11:30pm reservation. Technically, 11:30pm is their latest reservation but I've seen people come in later and I've seen people eating there until well after 2am. In the restaurant's heyday, 4am.

I believe the Spotted Pig is open until 2am every day, though I've never personally been there late so I don't know what's offered or when the actual ordering cutoff is.

Does everybody feel that the notes above make clear that there are several Blue Ribbon restaurants, with varying hours?

I heartily agree with the premise of this topic: it's easy to find places that 1- are open late but only on weekends especially if you count Thursday night as a weekend night, and 2- say they're open late but actually stop serving food earlier or go to a very abbreviated menu.

One area also worth exploring is wine bars. I noticed 'inoteca and Bar Veloce listed above without objection, so I assume if a wine bar offers serious-enough food it's okay to list here. And if Bar Veloce is eligible, well, that's not a terribly high bar to clear. One place I think is quite good but has had little attention is Solex, open every day until 2am. Casellula goes until 2am every day and Cavatappo and Xai Xai go until midnight on the weekdays -- that whole stretch of Ninth Avenue in Hell's Kitchen is a good late-night venue on weeknights because of all the post-theater foot traffic. Many of those places start filling up at 10:30-11pm.

Bar Milano? I'm not sure of its exact closing times, though.

You'll also see, in the Lincoln Center area, several places that have fluid closing times based on when the opera lets out or whatever. Operas can run long and often get out after 11pm -- an 8pm start for a 3+ hour opera is not unusual even Monday-Wednesday. So while some places around there might claim to close at 11pm, they also might not want to turn away a wave of customers getting out of the Met at 11:05pm. So it's worth a call over to those places (e.g., Picholine, Bar Boulud) on any given day to see what they're really doing.

I'm not sure what the justification is for excluding Chinese but including Japanese restaurants, except maybe that Japanese restaurants tend to be more expensive and have smaller portions. Like I believe A Fan Ti in Flushing goes until 1am every day, and I'd characterize it as ambitious. Also, as a group, Korean restaurants tend to be open late -- many are open 24 hours -- and most offer a range of cuisine including some that is more ambitious than the average of what's being served at the restaurants listed on this topic.

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#16 kathryn

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 09:08 PM

FG, as I wrote earlier Bar Milano only has a bar menu past midnight says the NYT but their web site is not very helpful in determining whether or not that includes some food.

I meant to caveat my post and label the wine/tapas bars as such.

Basically I was going off my personal list, which structured to answer the question "where do I go when it's midnight on a Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday, I'm in Manhattan, and I want to sit down and eat?" but then I took off some of the restaurants like izakayas because of LPShanet's original inquiry for upscale/ambitious spots, no delis, no pizza, no Chinatown, no diners. In my twisted logic, though, wine bars were OK.

Maybe if izakayas count, then the pizza/deli/Korean/diner/etc. joints still should count if the food is good, so at least the list is more complete.

Edited by kathryn, 01 August 2008 - 09:10 PM.

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#17 raji

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 09:33 PM

I'm not sure what the justification is for excluding Chinese but including Japanese restaurants, except maybe that Japanese restaurants tend to be more expensive and have smaller portions. Like I believe A Fan Ti in Flushing goes until 1am every day, and I'd characterize it as ambitious. Also, as a group, Korean restaurants tend to be open late -- many are open 24 hours -- and most offer a range of cuisine including some that is more ambitious than the average of what's being served at the restaurants listed on this topic.


I for one did consider this. Why Yakitori Totto and not NY Noodletown. You can get full at either and for a whole hell of a lot less in Chinatown. #3 was a consideration but I was thinking more situationally. Where would I take date that was going really well?

Part of it is service - one thing, for instance, is the Japanese restaurants will be atomically accurate by their "last order" time. If they tell you they're open until 1am and last order is at 12:45, there will BE A WAITER at your table at 24:45:00 with perfect posture asking you if you'd like anything else because it's last order. If not, they're just not Japanese. can't say the same for anywhere else.

While I think there's places in Koreatown worth mention, they are all essentially the equivalent of Korean diners.... BBQ or not... which is why I excluded them.

There are plenty of _decent_ "izakaya" of the Yokocho, East, Taisho ilk.. which is why I mentioned the places that have better than average kitchens.

Late night asian dining is an adventure!

#18 LPShanet

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 09:50 AM

I think the last few posts actually hinted at why I excluded Chinatown, Koreatown, etc. from my original post. Once you go down that road, the options become so numerous that they become harder to keep track of and discuss, and easier to argue about in terms of relative quality.

I love Noodletown, Kum Gang San and their respective ilks, but didn't want to turn this into a whole argument over which of 30 similar places for bul gogi is actually better, as there are other threads for that. Also, I think among the readers of these boards, it's assumed that you can find MANY things open late in Chinatown and the like. The purpose of the thread was to explore those places that maybe some didn't realize were open at those hours, and selfishly to find more clarity about which ones really honor their stated hours.

#19 whiskey

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 07:35 PM

Hi everyone - am a frequent traveller to NYC and a long time lurker on the forum but this is my first post - so be gentle! My Dad and I will be in NYC for a long week end at the end of February (my belated xmas gift to him) and I am looking for some input for dinner on Sunday. Its his first time ever in New York. We are going to the Rangers game on Sunday [don't get me started] and I'm looking for suggestions for dinner after the game. It does not have to be in the MSG area! Was really hoping to try Corton but its not open on Sunday. One thought was Gramercy Tavern. Our other dinners are at Peasant and Tailor [was just there 2 week ends ago and have been having visions of the miso butterscotch pork belly ever since] so we'd like to do something a bit different from those. We are both fairly adventurous eaters, so pretty much anything goes (and price isn't really an option, if that matters) . Not sure if I have given enough guidance but any thoughts would be welcome.

Cheers

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#20 markk

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 08:03 PM

How late is "late"? What time are you looking to dine?
Overheard at the Zabar’s prepared food counter in the 1970’s:

Woman (noticing a large bowl of cut fruit): “How much is the fruit salad?”
Counterman: “Three-ninety-eight a pound.”
Woman (incredulous, and loud): “THREE-NINETY EIGHT A POUND ????”
Counterman: “Who’s going to sit and cut fruit all day, lady… YOU?”

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#21 Fat Guy

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 10:04 PM

That would likely be a 7pm game, which would have you out around 9:30pm. Allowing for a possible longer game and other delays, you'd probably be looking at a 10:15pm reservation somewhere. The latest reservation they'll take on a Sunday night at Gramercy Tavern is 10pm or possibly a little earlier. Your best option at Gramercy Tavern might be to do a walk-in at the Tavern up front, which is open until 11pm on Sunday nights. In fact you might be best off at a variety of excellent walk-in places, such as Upstairs at Bouley or Momofuku Ssam Bar. The trouble with most of the restaurants that take reservations, especially on a Sunday night, is that even if they'll give you a 10 or 10:15 reservation you'll be the last table of the night and you'll feel the time pressure. The most generously extended hours of any top, formal, sit-down restaurant, if that's what you're after, can be found at Bouley. I've had meals at Bouley that went well past 1am and the restaurant was still quite active.

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#22 whiskey

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 09:09 AM

Fat Guy, its actually an 8 pm start for this game. It sounds like our best bet is to wing it - or eat beforehand, although I don't like eating that early.

Thanks for your help.

#23 markk

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 10:34 AM

Fat Guy, its actually an 8 pm start for this game.  It sounds like our best bet is to wing it - or eat beforehand, although I don't like eating that early.

Thanks for your help.

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There's no reason you have to resort to eating at the ungodly hour of "before 8 pm"!

I recently (sometimes I come late to the party) discovered "Blue Ribbon" on Sullivan St., once an extremely trendy place, and now still thriving, and serving extremely delicious food with a policy of no reservations, but walk-ins until 4 am. And I can attest from several recent visits that the food is delicious and the service is extremely friendly. It has come to my rescue on many Sunday nights, let me tell you.

You can check it out on my recent eGullet thread here:

Blue Ribbon - food photos and commentary

Hope this helps. I realize it's not precisely what you were looking for, but it should prove to be a very pleasant surprise. Why, it's worth it for the Foie Gras alone!
Overheard at the Zabar’s prepared food counter in the 1970’s:

Woman (noticing a large bowl of cut fruit): “How much is the fruit salad?”
Counterman: “Three-ninety-eight a pound.”
Woman (incredulous, and loud): “THREE-NINETY EIGHT A POUND ????”
Counterman: “Who’s going to sit and cut fruit all day, lady… YOU?”

Newly updated: my online food photo extravaganza; cook-in/eat-out and photos from the 70's

#24 Pan

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 12:24 PM

Fat Guy, its actually an 8 pm start for this game.  It sounds like our best bet is to wing it - or eat beforehand, although I don't like eating that early.

Thanks for your help.

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It sounds completely different from what you are thinking of doing, but I'll just note that most of the Koreatown restaurants are open 24 hours.

#25 tjdnewyork

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 11:17 PM

Useful thread. Went to Blue Ribbon Sushi late night. I used to really like this place but I had not been back for a year or two. This time we were very disappointed--prices have gone up and portions have gotten smaller. Quality of the sushi rice was spotty. I really have to say I would not go back here, which is a shame because I used to think it was a pretty good late night option. Guess they've just been able to coast along on a wave of popularity and are now just squeezing everything out of their existing customer base. Oh well.

Edited by tjdnewyork, 29 August 2009 - 11:18 PM.


#26 LPShanet

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 02:02 AM

Useful thread.  Went to Blue Ribbon Sushi late night.  I used to really like this place but I had not been back for a year or two.  This time we were very disappointed--prices have gone up and portions have gotten smaller. Quality of the sushi rice was spotty.  I really have to say I would not go back here, which is a shame because I used to think it was a pretty good late night option.  Guess they've just been able to coast along on a wave of popularity and are now just squeezing everything out of their existing customer base. Oh well.

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That's a major shame. Seems like it might be time to do an update to this thread. If anyone has any thoughts, please chime in. I'm sure there are additions and subtractions to be made. And I fear that Tailor may soon be a subtraction, though I sincerely hope not!