77 replies to this topic

[PCL]

My response to the Michelin Guide to Hong Kong is that it is an appalingly arrogant and narrow minded misrepresentation of the state of culinary affairs on the island. To some, this could be an overblown reaction, but I assure you, the people of the island, and some fans across the globe, are righteously outraged by the blatant ignorance and blindsided approach to restaurants in the island.

How can a bunch of foreign reviewers, with only 2 'Asian' 'sidekicks' hope to provide a definitive view of good eating in Hong Kong? The implication here is that they would only want to give the highest priority to 'molecular' or more traditional cuisines that fit the conventional definitions of 'haute cuisine'. Woe betide the Cantonese restaurants on a Cantonese island. The criticism here isn't that foreigners cannot assess good food, but hey, how much credibility can you give a guide, say, if Michelin were to send a bunch of Chinese or Indians around to assess the 2010 Guide for France and the UK?? The point here is that a balance is required, and obviously there has been none.

I agree with all the statements made here against the credibility of the HK guide, and I am also glad to say that it has not made any impressions on my mind other than one similar to an annoying mosquito buzzing around an ear.

[Sher.eats]

My response to the Michelin Guide to Hong Kong is that it is an appalingly arrogant and narrow minded misrepresentation of the state of culinary affairs on the island. To some, this could be an overblown reaction, but I assure you, the people of the island, and some fans across the globe, are righteously outraged by the blatant ignorance and blindsided approach to restaurants in the island.

How can a bunch of foreign reviewers, with only 2 'Asian' 'sidekicks' hope to provide a definitive view of good eating in Hong Kong? The implication here is that they would only want to give the highest priority to 'molecular' or more traditional cuisines that fit the conventional definitions of 'haute cuisine'. Woe betide the Cantonese restaurants on a Cantonese island. The criticism here isn't that foreigners cannot assess good food, but hey, how much credibility can you give a guide, say, if Michelin were to send a bunch of Chinese or Indians around to assess the 2010 Guide for France and the UK?? The point here is that a balance is required, and obviously there has been none.

I agree with all the statements made here against the credibility of the HK guide, and I am also glad to say that it has not made any impressions on my mind other than one similar to an annoying mosquito buzzing around an ear.

Firstly I'm not "outraged" and I have no idea why you spoke on my behalf.

You do know there are Chinese written food guides to Europe written by Chinese people? Said who the Michelin guide is "definite" and I challenge you to find me a real foodie who uses a single source of information for his restaurant planning. As for 'molecular', do you not believe BO doesn't deserve its 2 stars? And what do you mean by "more traditional cuisines that fit the conventional definitions of 'haute cuisine'" huh??

Why don't you give weighting to your arguement by listing which restaurants are over/under starred?

and we're not just an island, you know that right?

[aprilmei]

I wouldn't call myself outraged, either; to tell you the truth, my expectations weren't that high even before it came out. I think these guides should be taken as just that - a guide - it's not the gospel truth.
Even with Michelin in France there's controversy about some places people think should be on the starred list and some they think shouldn't be included - and they've had years of practice with that country's guide. And just because Tokyo has only starred restaurants in their guide doesn't mean some Japanese citizens and chefs think Michelin gets that city's guide wrong. One Japanese sushi chef I know has said he knows of places that are absolutely amazing that are not included in the Tokyo guide - and next time I go to Tokyo, I'll be asking him (and my cousin, who lives there) for recommendations on where to eat; I won't be looking at Michelin.

Even Hong Kong-based restaurant guides can be controversial - and at least they're written by people who live here.

[Robert Esser]

I guess I'm not sure the whole point of the guide, anymore. I want to think that they just put out a silly list in HK because they aren't familiar here and didn't spend enough time, and that it doesn't cast aspersions on - for example - the French list. I said this before, and what really disappoints me now is the notion that because the HK list was random and silly, does that honestly mean the French one is too? I think everyone in culinaria has some sort of nostalgic investment in the idea that Michelin in France is sort of THE arbiter of what's what and most of us tend to look at it with respect when we visit and are choosing places to eat.

Second question this brings to mind is - are all the stars the same? All things being equal, does that mean for example that Bernard Loiseau and Alvin from Bo Innovation are chefs of equivalent talent (both 2 stars)? I guess in theory it should, but this appears to be a foolish conclusion - one guy apprenticed since age 12 to the greatest kitchens in France working 18 hours a day for 30+ years to learn his trade and another an enthusiastic amateur who makes ice cream from Chinese sausage? Don't get me wrong - a dinner at Bo is a lovely experience, but it's a separate world from Hotel Troisgros or Tour D'Argent, I do think most people would agree.

What WOULD be nice would be a common guide to HK food, like the Makansutra in Singapore, that featured the proper local cuisine in little street-level restaurants, and that had real street cred. Openrice is as close as we get, but it's not very professional or reliable and it's only available in Chinese, which leaves it lacking as a guide for visitors, at least. I have lived here for 20 years, speak Chinese well, and indeed I live up in the hood, in SSP, and even I know I probably haven't been to more than a handful of the really good places that are around. We seem to find a new one every few weeks.

[PCL]

Firstly I'm not "outraged" and I have no idea why you spoke on my behalf.

You do know there are Chinese written food guides to Europe written by Chinese people? Said who the Michelin guide is "definite" and I challenge you to find me a real foodie who uses a single source of information for his restaurant planning. As for 'molecular', do you not believe BO doesn't deserve its 2 stars? And what do you mean by "more traditional cuisines that fit the conventional definitions of 'haute cuisine'" huh??

Why don't you give weighting to your arguement by listing which restaurants are over/under starred?

and we're not just an island, you know that right?

Touchy. Oooh. Why?

I'm not speaking on your behalf, just those who don't post here.

I respect your right to eat and live by the Michelin guide, please do try to form your own opinions now and then and try to explore some Chinese food during your time in Hong Kong, with some Chinese friends.

Now let's see the fireworks go off.

Happy Year of the Bull by the way!!

[PCL]

And oh, I'm not saying they got it wrong, it's just a crap Guide.

[aprilmei]

Firstly I'm not "outraged" and I have no idea why you spoke on my behalf.

You do know there are Chinese written food guides to Europe written by Chinese people? Said who the Michelin guide is "definite" and I challenge you to find me a real foodie who uses a single source of information for his restaurant planning. As for 'molecular', do you not believe BO doesn't deserve its 2 stars? And what do you mean by "more traditional cuisines that fit the conventional definitions of 'haute cuisine'" huh??

Why don't you give weighting to your arguement by listing which restaurants are over/under starred?

and we're not just an island, you know that right?

Touchy. Oooh. Why?

I'm not speaking on your behalf, just those who don't post here.

I respect your right to eat and live by the Michelin guide, please do try to form your own opinions now and then and try to explore some Chinese food during your time in Hong Kong, with some Chinese friends.

Now let's see the fireworks go off.

Happy Year of the Bull by the way!!

Sorry, but you've got it wrong. Sher.eats is Chinese from Hong Kong; she also cooks professionally and eats out a lot. What she's saying (and Sher, if I'm misinterpreting you, please correct me) is that no food lover uses just one source of info when they're deciding where to eat; we might check guides for initial info but you can be sure we're going to get second, third and fourth opinions.
I don't think anybody - or any group - can provide a "definitive" guide to any city's cuisine. As I said before, a guide is just that - a guide. Michelin may be the biggest "name" but it's not the only one. I also found last year's Miele guide to restaurants in Asia puzzling in regards to the Hong Kong section. And for that guide, each city's initial list was compiled by food writers in that city, although readers could vote for their own favourites too.

For Michelin, what irritates me (although I'm not outraged) isn't necessarily what they included (although there were quite a few that had me completely puzzled) but what they left out.

ETA that as for you speaking on the behalf of those who don't post here, I can assure you that my Hong Kong relatives are not outraged over the guide, either. So there's more than just a few of us here who remain un-outraged.

Edited by aprilmei, 02 February 2009 - 05:53 AM.

[PCL]

Hallelujah. Great. So she should know how to form her own opinion then.

Good for your relatives who are not outraged, but then again, there are people both in HK and elsewhere who remain so. Why is it so difficult for that to be accepted and so easy for casual praise and lauding of the Michelin swallowed like the smoothest tau-foo-fa?

I did not fire the first shot in this debate by taking it personal, so as far as professional cooking and eating out is concerned, fine, they are entitled to their opinion, just as the unspeaking masses that I so happen to represent on this particularly irritable but somewhat poignant topic.

April, your point on what was left out is exactly what has outraged so many. It is not so much a definition of a state of being (as in outraged) but an overall disbelief of the incompetence of a so-called expert guide.

But rest assured all of you who have been clearly put out by my comments here; Hong Kong will neither prosper nor falter by the pronouncements of the Michelin Guide. If it provides the status-getters an extra merit badge to hang on their already overburdened epaulettes, fine.

[PCL]

I'm still puzzled however, by the seeming obsession over a simple term as 'outraged'. Maybe PISSED OFF should have been used instead.

but really, it's just a little red book. there have been a lot worse in the world in terms of of little red books.

[aprilmei]

I'm still puzzled however, by the seeming obsession over a simple term as 'outraged'. Maybe PISSED OFF should have been used instead.

but really, it's just a little red book. there have been a lot worse in the world in terms of of little red books.

Sorry, but you did use the word outraged - in fact, you said "righteously outraged". If you had used "pissed off" it would have been more accurate about the way some people here felt when the guide first came out. The guide was irritating - in the same way Restaurant Magazine's list of the top 50 restaurants in the world was irritating when it had, for at least a couple of years, Felix (at the Peninsula) as the sole representative of Asia. Everybody here knows you don't go to Felix for the food.
I also disagree with your statement that it was "appallingly arrogant and narrow minded". That makes it sound like Michelin deliberately did a bad job of it, or at least didn't attempt to do a good job. I'm sure they tried to do a good job - they failed, but I don't believe it was due to arrogance and narrow-mindedness. I would say that they were ignorant and not well researched - but not arrogant.
The thing is, I don't even like this version of the Michelin guide - they did get a lot wrong. If you look at some of the earlier posts, you'll see how we felt about it. I'm not defending Michelin, but I'm disagreeing with your assessment of it.

[Sher.eats]

"Touchy. Oooh. Why?"
Because your quotes: "the incompetence of a so-called expert guide" and "righteously outraged by the blatant ignorance and blindsided approach" are exaggerated and unjust. Saying "unspeaking masses that I so happen to represent" & "I'm not speaking on your behalf, just those who don't post here" has a touch of arrogance.

What is the point of a discussion (that is why you're here right?) if one can/will not elaborate their arguments or provide details to substantiate their positions? If Michelin awarded stars to McDonalds and none to the rest then your wordings would be appropriate, however that is not what they have done. I've asked you previously and I ask you again, what restaurants do you think are over/under starred or represented? Actually, just tell us why you think it's so bad?

"I respect your right to eat and live by the Michelin guide, please do try to form your own opinions now and then and try to explore some Chinese food during your time in Hong Kong, with some Chinese friends."
As aprilmei said, I am a local and I'm pretty sure (due to your lack of example usages) that I have experienced more of HK cuisine than you have. If you have read what I wrote: "Said who the Michelin guide is "definite" and I challenge you to find me a real foodie who uses a single source of information for his restaurant planning" it would be clear that I don't "eat and live by the Michelin guide"

"Hong Kong will neither prosper nor falter by the pronouncements of the Michelin Guide"
Proof?

Here's my complete position:

-It was a good first-time effort, but definitely needs improving.
-The ratings for the French restaurants were correct (except Gaddi's)
-Not giving a single star to any Japanese or Italian was surprisingly, but understandable.
-Lung King Heen is definitely not a "local's" and appear more "foreign" compared to home favorites like Fook Lum Moon or Yung Kee.
-Chinese food is difficult to understand for a first time westerner, and so good service is essential for a customer to be able to properly order and enjoy the meal. Because of this hotels restaurants are favored, as represented by the star awarding.
- Locals who need not the English speaking will find this irrelevant.
- There is some discrepancy as 3 stars sushi restaurants in Tokyo definitely have no English spoken, although the omakase style removes the need for ordering and there is no real Chinese equivalent.
- The worst and actually "wrong" part of the guide is the Bib Gourmand section, a lot of real germs are missing and most of those listed are neither "of value" nor "real tasty". Although this does not justify the comments you have given.
- The writing for each restaurant is totally insufficient, if it's a layout problem a separate English and Chinese guide should be released. Currently the guide is more like a detailed listing.
- Finally as I cook at a French restaurant, the most useful part of the guide was knowing what level we were compared to the world.

Edited by Sher.eats, 02 February 2009 - 10:05 AM.

[Sher.eats]

I guess I'm not sure the whole point of the guide, anymore.  I want to think that they just put out a silly list in HK because they aren't familiar here and didn't spend enough time, and that it doesn't cast aspersions on - for example - the French list.  I said this before, and what really disappoints me now is the notion that because the HK list was random and silly, does that honestly mean the French one is too?  I think everyone in culinaria has some sort of nostalgic investment in the idea that Michelin in France is sort of THE arbiter of what's what and most of us tend to look at it with respect when we visit and are choosing places to eat. 

hey Robert!!

do you think Michelin are running the guide as a profit making business or more for PR? which country do you think they're predicting will have most sales of the HK guide? I would guess probably proportional to the country of origin of tourists to HK...which would be China...the implication being if they do write the guide with a specific audience in mind, criteria will "deviate"...although following the China argument one would think places like Yu Kee and Fook Lum to do much better and Lung King Heen less, so I don't think that hypothesis is correct. I'm also curious as to the how "hardcore" a foodie are the people who buy their guides, and how much of the decision making is based on the guide. I will consider myself "serious" and I started my trip planning to Paris and Tokyo by cross referencing the starred restaurants with boards like eG CH and ZT as well as blogs and other print reviews...

Second question this brings to mind is - are all the stars the same?  All things being equal, does that mean for example that Bernard Loiseau and Alvin from Bo Innovation are chefs of equivalent talent (both 2 stars)?   I guess in theory it should, but this appears to be a foolish conclusion - one guy apprenticed since age 12 to the greatest kitchens in France working 18 hours a day for 30+ years to learn his trade and another an enthusiastic amateur who makes ice cream from Chinese sausage?  Don't get me wrong - a dinner at Bo is a lovely experience, but it's a separate world from Hotel Troisgros or Tour D'Argent, I do think most people would agree. 

I can't find the source the source but I recall reading somewhere the stars have a common universal standard. The simplest comparison would be Le Cinq in Four Seasons Paris and Caprice of Four Seasons HK, both have 2 Michelin stars and saying they have differences wouldn't be controversial.

What WOULD be nice would be a common guide to HK food, like the Makansutra in Singapore, that featured the proper local cuisine in little street-level restaurants, and that had real street cred.  Openrice is as close as we get, but it's not very professional or reliable and it's only available in Chinese, which leaves it lacking as a guide for visitors, at least.  I have lived here for 20 years, speak Chinese well, and indeed I live up in the hood, in SSP, and even I know I probably haven't been to more than a handful of the really good places that are around.  We seem to find a new one every few weeks.

I'm unfamiliar with the Makansutra, is it a "collective wisdom" driven or do they have "appointed" reviewers? Openrice is very useful (and i'm active there too) for researching a particular restaurant, don't just look at the =) and =( but filter the reviews by removing non members and perhaps only viewing the "well written stamped" reviews. It's less useful for finding a restaurant to eat, especially in areas like CWB where there are thousands, sorting by =) is not useful as a restaurant near the MTR is sure gonna have more reviews than one far away, using =) minus =( is better. But still if one were to search for "sichuan" one wouldn't give much much notice to Xi Chuan Cai Da Pin Huo, although it is truly excellent. My "solution" is to suscribe to the RSS feed of the daily reviews (around 400), it takes me 10 minutes to scan through them, most are of fast food chains which are ignored, occasionally they'll be an really interesting review of an unknown place, these I bookmark and form my to-eat list....

Edited by Sher.eats, 02 February 2009 - 11:38 AM.

[PCL]

Good for you Sher. You can sure piss higher up the wall than anyone else with your substantiated positions. And they are very elegant positions too. I just can't see why by the same token you can't accept someone else's position without coming back demanding satisfaction that they prove why they do not agree with you.

In terms of listing places I have a modest but very dear to me compilation of restaurants and stalls that I frequent, though not always of the fine dining category. So I defer to you and will continue to monitor your eloquently stated defences of the Michelin guide with great interest.

[Sher.eats]

Good for you Sher. You can sure piss higher up the wall than anyone else with your substantiated positions. And they are very elegant positions too. I just can't see why by the same token you can't accept someone else's position without coming back demanding satisfaction that they prove why they do not agree with you.

In terms of listing places I have a modest but very dear to me compilation of restaurants and stalls that I frequent, though not always of the fine dining category. So I defer to you and will continue to monitor your eloquently stated defences of the Michelin guide with great interest.

Tak Lung Restaurant in Sum Po Gong is one of their biggest misses (bib)...smoked chapon; "mille feuille" of chicken liver, cha siu, sweetened pork and candied ginger; deep fried oysters in port sauce....it was $100 per person for 10 courses...

[HKDave]

Good for you Sher. You can sure piss higher up the wall than anyone else with your substantiated positions. And they are very elegant positions too. I just can't see why by the same token you can't accept someone else's position without coming back demanding satisfaction that they prove why they do not agree with you.

In terms of listing places I have a modest but very dear to me compilation of restaurants and stalls that I frequent, though not always of the fine dining category. So I defer to you and will continue to monitor your eloquently stated defences of the Michelin guide with great interest.

Tak Lung Restaurant in Sum Po Gong is one of their biggest misses (bib)...smoked chapon; "mille feuille" of chicken liver, cha siu, sweetened pork and candied ginger; deep fried oysters in port sauce....it was $100 per person for 10 courses...

Tak Lung is an amazing value... and I have to thank Sher for introducing me to it. One of the best meals I've had in a long time. I'm not sure Michelin would like the bathrooms, though ;-)

PCL, I disagree with your position as well, for reasons stated very well by aprilmei, Sher and Robert upthread. The Michelin HK guide is mediocre, but it's just not as important as it might have been at one time because now it's just another drop in a ocean of mediocre print guides that have already been replaced by blogs and forums - such as this one - as sources of more up-to-date and in-depth information. I certainly didn't feel or sense outrage about it; personally, I would have been more surprised if they had done a good job. Some of your more sarcastic and deliberately misinterpretative responses to those upthread (all of whom I respect as chefs, HK food professionals and dinner companions) that criticized your posts border on flaming, which isn't helping your credibility in this discussion.

Edited by HKDave, 03 February 2009 - 10:37 AM.

[PCL]

The title of this thread should be reviewed. It seems to invite 'reactions' as well as 'analysis'. I simply chose to provide a reaction, along with some of people not posting on a forum.

Analysis seems to be the choice of others and that's fine, but at the same time, some of you decided to analyse my reaction, and that's fine too. It just seems that dissenting voices are not welcome, and established status quos have to be defended at all costs, which in turn reminds me of how the farcical HK Michelin guide came into being in the first place.

I sat down to a nice New Year's dinner last night in KL with some friends visiting from HK, and believe me, we did spend quite a bit of time being outraged over various things, the Guide being one of them. But I'm sure as far as most of you are concerned, they are only irrelevant and anonymous strangers who's opinion don't matter. Much like how I feel about board huggers.

[Sher.eats]

The title of this thread should be reviewed. It seems to invite 'reactions' as well as 'analysis'. I simply chose to provide a reaction, along with some of people not posting on a forum.

Analysis seems to be the choice of others and that's fine, but at the same time, some of you decided to analyse my reaction, and that's fine too. It just seems that dissenting voices are not welcome, and established status quos have to be defended at all costs, which in turn reminds me of how the farcical HK Michelin guide came into being in the first place.

I sat down to a nice New Year's dinner last night in KL with some friends visiting from HK, and believe me, we did spend quite a bit of time being outraged over various things, the Guide being one of them. But I'm sure as far as most of you are concerned, they are only irrelevant and anonymous strangers who's opinion don't matter. Much like how I feel about board huggers.

I thought moving back to actual restaurant discussions (Tak Lung) would have done it...

1) As the starter of this thread, I do appreciate your opinion, I just want to know why you think it is so bad. Criticisms without reason = bashing/flaming.

2) I appreciate your changing of "all people" to "some people"

3) If you don't consider what we wrote on page 2 to be criticisms then....oh well

4) I'm pretty sure we post here not for ego, we genuinely love food and are willing to share information and opinion for the betterment of all. Coming from an admin, your comments were disappointing to say the least =\

Edited by Sher.eats, 04 February 2009 - 12:27 AM.

[hll]

New Muchelin Guide 2010 just out. I'm in HK now. Any thoughts on their new recommendations?