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Dextrose vs. Atomized Glucose: The Same?


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#1 ejw50

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 04:58 PM

I recently bought Atomized glucose from L'epicerie in New York.

They sent me Dextrose (labeled D-Glucose Pure) instead. When I called, they said it was the same thing, except one was from wheat and one from something else.

Is this correct? Do they have the same sweetening power?

I am a little annoyed that they didn't email me to tell me at least.

#2 tan319

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 07:17 PM

Dextrose is a type of glucose but is sweeter.
Atomized glucose has what is called a sweetness coefficent of 50 while dextrose has one of 75.
In working with both for ice cream, I prefer atomized glucose.
Kind of weird for L'epiceri to just shove some dextrose on you.
To me, they are not interchangable.
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#3 ejw50

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 09:23 PM

Dextrose is a type of glucose but is sweeter.
Atomized glucose has what is called a sweetness coefficent of 50 while dextrose has one of 75.
In working with both for ice cream, I prefer atomized glucose.
Kind of weird for  L'epiceri to just shove some dextrose on you.
To me, they are not interchangable.

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Thanks for the info. Well that kind of pisses me off. I emailed them on Sunday about the switcheroo, and they didn't get back to me at all. It was only after I called them that they answered my question. They substituted gel glace for cremodan last time (maybe they are the same I don't know) but now this is twice.


Ugh. Anybody have a different vendor that they like?

Edited by ejw50, 23 July 2008 - 09:30 PM.


#4 tan319

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 12:27 AM

Gel glace is a stabilizer but not the same as Cremodan, which has emulsifiers, etc.
If they've done this before, just sent you a different product w/o consulting you, they need to be reported or something.
Sorry about your troubles!
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#5 jlwquilter

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 07:28 AM

Hi. Thought I'd grab the chance to piggy back here...

I picked up a dessert book from the library a few days ago.. basically European type desserts. One recipe calls for glucose. I found a tub of glucose (Wilton brand) at the store... ingredient list simply said "corn syrup". Does this mean I can just use my corn syrup out of the pantry?? Or can I "power up" my corn syrup to do the same job?

I am a home baker and trying to increase my skills and knowledge... but not get ripped off in the process by buying items that I already have on hand, but under simpler names.

Thanks!

#6 tan319

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 08:19 AM

you can use corn syrup in place of glucose but It's not the same thing.
Most , if not all of the time, glucose is derived from wheat.
I'm curious why wilton would label something one thing then call it another.
What are you making?
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#7 ejw50

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 01:17 PM

Hey tan319

I'd be interested in what you think of L'epicerie's response. i cut and paste your answer to me and this is what they say

I am terribly sorry about the switch of products without your knowledge. I will make sure the warehouse keeps all our customers informed of changes. Please accept our apologies for the inconvenience this may have caused.

Regarding the issue of Dextrose vs Glucose I beg to differ from the information given to you on eGullet and would like to refer from the book "Chocolates and Confections" by Peter P. Greweling of the Culinary Institute of America.

In the "Sweeteners" chapter. One can read:

Sucrose and derivatives

While the word sugar may rightfully be applied to a variety of nutritive carbohydrate sweeteners, when the term is used without any modifiers, it refers as sucrose. Sucrose is a disaccharide made up of one molecule of fructose (also known as levulose) bonded with one molecule of dextrose (also know as glucose). The sucrose commonly used in confectionery is one of the purest food substances available -- 99.8 percent of higher pure sucrose.

This may not close the discussion on Glucose/Dextrose but this information has the advantage of having been published by an authoritative author.

Best regards.


Again, thanks for your expertise on this. I appreciate that they actually responded this time, but I'm probably just going to buy wholesale next time and eat the extra cost. At least I'll get what I ordered.

Edited by ejw50, 26 July 2008 - 01:21 PM.


#8 ejw50

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 03:51 PM

OK, I'm going to answer my own question.

I found a recipe from the 2006 World Pastry Class forum from Biagio Settpani (thanks Schneich for posting the link!!!). The recipe uses both powdered glucose and dextrose, suggesting strongly that they are not the same thing.

I think wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose clarifies the source of confusion.

Dextrose is a form of glucose (D-glucose pure, as it is labeled on the package). That is, it is one stereoisomer of glucose. isomers have the same chemical formula but different arrangements and thus different chemical properties.

Glucose will contain dextrose, but forms as well. This would be in line with what tan319 said earlier about it being less sweet, since it is the D-glucose form that is sweet (according to wikipedia).

Edited by ejw50, 26 July 2008 - 03:54 PM.


#9 tan319

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 10:28 PM

Yes, that response from your supplier was a little bit snarky?
I basically was paraphrasing Oriol Balaguers "Dessert Cuisine" and it's section on sugars.
The book has one of the most complete chapters ( rather a series of chapters) on ingredients used in desserts and chocolates including sugars.
He's also won numerous awards in Spain, his home country, as well as Europe.

But, I think the point still remains that the supplier shipped you ( for the second time?) product that you didn't order that they thought was a good enough replacement.
Without consulting you.
Greweling or not, that kind of remains questionable? Oriol Balaguer

Edited by tan319, 27 July 2008 - 07:56 AM.

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#10 tammylc

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 12:44 AM

you can use corn syrup in place of glucose but It's not the same thing.
Most , if not all of the time, glucose is derived from wheat.
I'm curious why wilton would label something one thing then call it another.
What are you making?

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Most of the glucose I've seen for sale in the US is corn syrup. Although it can be derived from other starches, corn is cheap in the US, and used for sweeteners whenever possible.

Glucose is different from the Karo/light corn syrup that is (I assume) what you have in your pantry. If you look at the ingredient list for that, it's got corn syrup, high-fructose corn syrup, water, vanilla and salt.

Depending on the recipe, sometimes you can substitute one for the other without much problem. There's a thread on that very question somewhere in this forum.

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#11 jlwquilter

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 07:01 AM

Thanks for the info on glucose vs. corn syrup. I have so much to learn!

The recipe that I was looking at is for Royal Chocolate Frosting. I am not in the market to make any soon but you never know! I am starting a very very small baking business and am building my recipe base, trying to anticipate wanted items and such.

If someone could post a link to the subsitution thread I'd appreciate it. Frankly I am stumped/having problems figuring out the search feature on this site :sad:

Edited by jlwquilter, 27 July 2008 - 07:02 AM.


#12 ejw50

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 07:08 AM

Yes, that response from your supplier was a little bit snarky?
I basically was paraphrasing Oriol Balaguers  "Dessert Cuisine" and it's section on sugars.
The book has one of the most complete chapters ( rather a series of chapters) on ingredients used in desserts and chocolates including sugars.
He's also won numerous awards in Spain, his home country, as well as Europe.

But, I think the point still remains that the supplier shipped you ( for the second time?) product that you didn't order that they thought was a good enough replacement.
Without consulting you.
Greweling or not, that kind of remains questionable?

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Thanks again tan319.


It was the 2nd time. The first time it was a gel glace for cremodan substitution. I only ordered one cremodan last time.

But this time I ordered 3 lbs of Atomized Glucose and got 3 lbs of Dextrose.



This recipe also uses both dextrose and atomized glucose, suggesting they are not the same. They even suggest lepicerie as a vendor.


http://findarticles....ag=artBody;col1



I did say in my original email "I will be out of town these next few days so it's not a critical rush". I would've hoped that 3 days was enough time and that I wouldn't have to call. But maybe they do things differently.


*edit, l'epicerie's documentation shows I ordered Pastry One Ice Cream Stabilizer and I received Patisfrance Gel Glace. Maybe they are the same and if so that is my mistake and my apologies to l'epicerie for my error*

Edited by ejw50, 27 July 2008 - 11:15 AM.


#13 bibbotson

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 07:29 AM

But, I think the point still remains that the supplier shipped you ( for the second time?) product that you didn't order that they thought was a good enough replacement.
Without consulting you.


Overall I'm a fan of l'epicerie. When this has happened to me, they consulted me first.

Which they are legally required to do as part of their business license in New York City.

It doesn't matter whether it is correct or not that "it's the same thing." Legally, even a different brand of the same thing requires approval, because that's not what you purchased. (This comes up here in NYC every few years, when some reporter decides to press the issue in restaurants or fast-food places, asking for a Coke or Pepsi and being just served the other or a generic.)

This is the fifth or sixth time I've heard of someone getting substandard treatment from them, which is starting to outweigh the several times I or someone I knew got stellar treatment.

Good luck with this.
Brian Ibbotson
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#14 ejw50

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 11:12 AM

Thank you Brian for that information about New York. I did not know that.


they sent me another email asking me to retract what I said about a previous mess up.


Their documentation shows I ordered "Pastry one Ice Cream stabilizer" and that is what I remember from my invoice as well. I received "Patisfrance Gel glace".

If they are the same, my apologies to l'epicerie on that incorrect memory. I am not a pro so I did not know they are the same, my fault.



In that email, they did tell me again that dextrose and atomized glucose are the same (see below)

The Dextrose we carry is made in the US from corn. The Atomized Glucose we are importing is made in Europe from wheat.

From the entry on glucose on wikipedia one can read: "Two stereoisomers of the aldohexose sugars are known as glucose, only one of which (D-glucose) is biologically active. This form (D-glucose) is often referred to as dextrose monohydrate, or, especially in the food industry, simply dextrose (from dextrorotatory glucose[1]). This article deals with the D-form of glucose."

It looks like Peter P. Greweling of the Culinary Institute of America was right !


Edited by ejw50, 27 July 2008 - 11:25 AM.


#15 alanamoana

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 03:58 PM

Thanks for the info on glucose vs. corn syrup. I have so much to learn!

The recipe that I was looking at is for Royal Chocolate Frosting. I am not in the market to make any soon but you never know! I am starting a very very small baking business and am building my recipe base, trying to anticipate wanted items and such.

If someone could post a link to the subsitution thread I'd appreciate it. Frankly I am stumped/having problems figuring out the search feature on this site  :sad:

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for the most part, though not necessarily, corn syrup and glucose can be used interchangeably when baking or in some caramelized sugar recipes. when being used in confections, they really aren't interchangeable because usually you're looking for specific water activity levels and i'm pretty sure they're different in corn syrup and glucose.

#16 gap

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 06:32 PM

A quick question which is along the lines of this topic - is the atomized glucose you refer to the same as powdered glucose?

#17 tan319

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 06:59 PM

yes
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#18 tan319

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 07:23 PM

Like Alanamona said, a lot of times corn syrup and glucose could be interchanged.
But, if you're say, making a frosting out of a Colette Peters wedding cake book and it says glucose, I would make the effort to get that product.
More on tract, since l'epicerie is asking you for retractions maybe it's a good time to put it away.
Again, I suggest http://www.le-sanctuaire.com/
and if anyone else has a problem they should post about it right away?
Good Luck all!!!
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#19 Tiny

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 01:49 PM

I had class with Chef Greweling a couple months ago and I specifically asked him this question back them because when he gave his lecture entitled "Glucose Schumucose" I had the same question, having worked with both powdered dextrose and atomized glucose before. We went over the difference between dextrose, glucose and GLUCOSE SYRUP. Dextrose and glucose are the same thing, a monosaccharide that combined with fructose makes up table sugar. There is a huge difference though between this and glucose syrup, which comes from the conversion of starches into a partial broken down sugar syrup (the strength of which is measured in a scale called DE or dextrose equivilence). Atomized glucose is a dry, powdered form of glucose syrup and is most deffinately NOT the same thing as powdered dextrose.


The benefits of using atomized glucose come from recipes in which normal glucose syrup would be used but would be enhanced from less added water. For example, I have used atomized glucose in sorbet recipes in which the base flavoring was a juice, such as concord grape sorbet, this allows you to reach your desired brix without diluting the flavor anymore than needed.

So in conclusion, atomized glucose is not 100% dextrose where as dextrose is 100% pure monosaccharide also known as glucose. Atomized glucose is not the same as powdered dextrose. And you can email Chef Greweling directly and he will confirm this.

Confusing, yes....but worth knowing....


P.S. yeah corn syrup is glucose syrup (although kayro is not just glucose syrup as mentioned above), but not all glucose syrup is corn syrup.

Edited by Tiny, 29 July 2008 - 01:50 PM.


#20 gap

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 03:00 PM

Tiny, just confirming I have this right:

Powder Glucose = Dextrose

BUT

Atomised Glucose is not the same as Powdered Glucose

Is that correct?

#21 mkayahara

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 06:18 PM

The confusion here is that we're working with two meanings of the word "glucose": glucose the molecule and glucose the product. What Tiny is saying is that what's commonly called glucose (the product) is not 100% glucose (the molecule). Consequently, the powdered/atomized version of glucose (the product) is not 100% glucose (the molecule). The product called dextrose, on the other hand, is a powder in form, and is 100% glucose (the molecule).

I hope that doesn't muddy the waters further...
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#22 gap

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 06:23 PM

The confusion here is that we're working with two meanings of the word "glucose": glucose the molecule and glucose the product. What Tiny is saying is that what's commonly called glucose (the product) is not 100% glucose (the molecule). Consequently, the powdered/atomized version of glucose (the product) is not 100% glucose (the molecule). The product called dextrose, on the other hand, is a powder in form, and is 100% glucose (the molecule).

I hope that doesn't muddy the waters further...

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mkayahara - thanks for the post, that clears it up nicely for me. Apologies if this is obvious to everyone else but I am not a full-time pastry chef and the terms were genuinely confusing me

#23 ejw50

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 04:21 AM

Hey Tiny

Thanks for that. That's what I think too, in reading my books. Dextrose is one component of glucose, but glucose (the liquid) has other stuff too - explaining why powdered glucose isn't as sweet as powdered dextrose.

I'll try emailing Chef Greweling, who knows maybe he'll reply. That would be pretty sweet if he did reply.

Edited by ejw50, 30 July 2008 - 04:24 AM.


#24 ejw50

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 06:38 PM

Based on Tiny's advice, I emailed Chef Greweling. He actually replied!!!!!! Chef confirms what tiny said: atomized glucose and powdered dextrose are different, and you can see the explanation below.






It looks to me like the person who posted got it right.  There are a couple of things to consider:
"glucose syrup" is a very unfortunate name, because it is usually shortened to "glucose"
Glucose is a synonym for Dextrose, which is a monosaccharide.  Many industries, including medical, still use the name glucose for this sugar. (think blood glucose)
Glucose syrup is made by the partial breakdown of polysaccharides in starch into shorter chains of dextrose resulting in varying degrees of sweetness, viscosity, tendency to brown, etc.
So...Glucose syrup is not the same thing as glucose (the monosaccharide) resulting in much confusion.
As for powdered glucose syrup....it is simply glucose syrup, which is usually ~20% water, with most of that water removed.  it is available in different DEs just as glucose syrup is.  This may also be known as atomized glucose syrup, and unfortunately, the name is commonly shortened to powdered glucose.
Powdered dextrose is pure monosaccharide, and is an entirely different animal; essentially a 100 DE glucose syrup with the water removed.
Yes, I would say the poster got this one right, but it is a confusing subject, and the post requires careful reading.
If I can be of any further help to you, please do not hesitate to reach me at this e-mail address
Best Regards,
Peter P Greweling






"More on tract, since l'epicerie is asking you for retractions maybe it's a good time to put it away."

Only on the cremodan part, which I am happy to retract as my error (and which they noted and thanked me for in email).

Substituting dextrose without my knowledge and claiming they are the same because "Greweling says so" is pretty well documented and accepted by all involved. I did forward Chef's note to them. Just for their knowledge, not because I expect a refund or an exchange or anything.


Thanks for the http://www.le-sanctuaire.com/ recommendation and thanks to all who helped answer this question! I love this site!!!!!!!

Edited by ejw50, 30 July 2008 - 07:00 PM.


#25 gap

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 09:44 PM

Hi,
I recently bought a bag from my local ingredient store marked “Glucose Powder”. It also had a sub-marking of “Dextrose Monohydrate” and “Glucose is a white crystalline sugar obtained from the complete hydrolysis of starch and also “Made from wheat”. The brandname is Lotus.

I asked the person in the store that I bought it and they said the bag contained dextrose, but the instructor at my local pastry school said it is atomised glucose.

Is there any way to tell the difference between the two or do the descriptions above give a definitive answer? I plan on using it in ice-cream and am hoping it is atomised glucose, but don’t want to ruin a batch if it's not.

Thanks for any help

#26 Kerry Beal

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Posted 15 November 2008 - 07:10 PM

Here is a description of the difference. Looks like dried glucose syrup is a combination of dextrin, maltose and glucose, whereas dextrose is simply dextrose monohydrate.

#27 gap

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Posted 15 November 2008 - 11:11 PM

Thanks Kerry - neat link as well (will have to bookmark that one)

#28 Serj

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 01:38 AM

I think you can take a chance and use the powder regardless of whether it's glucose or dextrose. My feeling is that the increase of 25% of sweetening power or decrease of 3% of solid content of approximately 4% of your recipe won't really harm things. I am all about the science of it all, but at the end of the day, the "ideal" sweetening power and solid content are a range, so there's a good chance it will fall in it if it's dextrose instead of glucose powder. I think as long as the rest of the recipe is well balanced and the base is made properly, you shouldn't have a problem. Just my 2c.

#29 gap

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 02:16 PM

I think you can take a chance and use the powder regardless of whether it's glucose or dextrose. My feeling is that the increase of 25% of sweetening power or decrease of 3% of solid content of approximately 4% of your recipe won't really harm things. I am all about the science of it all, but at the end of the day, the "ideal" sweetening power and solid content are a range, so there's a good chance it will fall in it if it's dextrose instead of glucose powder. I think as long as the rest of the recipe is well balanced and the base is made properly, you shouldn't have a problem. Just my 2c.

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You're right - at the end of the day you just have to give it a go and see what it tastes like :smile:

#30 ejw50

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 05:56 PM

Post 24 of that thread gives the answer from Chef Greweling himself, which corroborates what his student Tiny said.

I agree with gap. I don't think you can know for sure unless you always buy from the same supplier (and assuming that supplier doesn't repackage things from their upstream supplier).


L'epicerie actually asked their suppliers about their composition. It appears 'dextrose' by definition will be pretty much the same, but 'atomized glucose' may depend on who you buy it from. Chef Greweling said that as well. My mention of L'Epicerie is an acknowledgment of data source (def. not an endorsement).



One of their supplier was the following

Dextrose:
Carbohydrate Composition (Dry Basis):
Regulatory Data:
Dextrose, %
99.7
United States
Other Saccharides,%
0.3


Corn Syrup Solids:
Dextrose, %
7.0
Maltose, %
7.0
Regulatory Data:
Trisaccharides, %
8.0
United States
Higher Saccharides, %
78.0



For another of L'Epicerie's suppliers, the information was the following

Dextrose: (a) Dextrose monohydrate is purified and crystallized D-glucose containing one molecule of water of crystallization with each molecule of D-glucose. (b) The food shall meet the following specifications: (1) The total solids content is not less than 90.0 percent mass/mass (m/m), and the reducing sugar content (dextrose equivalent), expressed as D-glucose, is not less than 99.5 percent m/m calculated on a dry basis.

Corn Syrup Solids:(a) Dried glucose sirup is glucose sirup from which the water has been partially removed and conforms to the specifications of Sec. 168.120, except that: (1) The total solids content is not less than 90.0 percent m/m when the reducing sugar content (dextrose equivalent), expressed as D- glucose, is not less than 88.0 percent m/m, calculated on a dry basis; or (2) The total solids content is not less than 93.0 percent m/m when the reducing sugar content, (dextrose equivalent) expressed as D- glucose, is less than 88.0 percent m/m, calculated on a dry basis.

Edited by ejw50, 16 November 2008 - 05:59 PM.