616 replies to this topic

[BadRabbit]

So, I'm a little late on the bandwagon, but I just finished drying and slicing some of the duck 'prosciutto'. It was an easy recipe, which explains why it was my first real success from the book. I'm starting to learn how rewarding this can be when it turns out ...

What did you think of the salt levels in the DP?

[Rico]

What did you think of the salt levels in the DP?

Well, I need to make clear that I'm pretty new into curing meat, so honestly I don't know if it was too salty or not. It tastes pretty heavily of salt, but I guess I just figured that's how it was supposed to be. I'd like to try it with less of a salt influence. Would I just cure it in the salt for 18 hours instead of 24? Twelve hours? Or am I on the wrong track entirely?

(Edited to fix an entirely inconsequential grammar issue that would have bothered me the rest of the day had I not addressed it)

Edited by Rico, 16 June 2011 - 09:07 AM.

[BadRabbit]

You can adjust it either through time or by lowering the salt in the brine. I personally think that the difference in saltiness for something as thin as a duck breast is likely to be imperceptible past 6 hours so I'd probably adjust the brine.

Perhaps Jason or one of the others more experienced could speak to that if anybody is still following the thread.

[jmolinari]

Curing in brine, i've concluded, is at best a random guess on the absorption of the salt and cure, so i really don't do it. When i do, i use an equilibrium brine as described in the FDA handbook or Modernist Cuisine. That way you know how much salt you'll end up with, rather than trying to guess based on brine %, time and temperature.

The FDA inspector handbook is here: http://www.fsis.usda...ives/7620-3.pdf

[ElsieD]

Curing in brine, i've concluded, is at best a random guess on the absorption of the salt and cure, so i really don't do it. When i do, i use an equilibrium brine as described in the FDA handbook or Modernist Cuisine. That way you know how much salt you'll end up with, rather than trying to guess based on brine %, time and temperature.

The FDA inspector handbook is here: http://www.fsis.usda...ives/7620-3.pdf

I tried making sense of this as it relates to bacon but not having a scientific mind, I have to admit my eyes glazed over. I could not get my head around the quantities they use in their examples, other than to reduce the cure by 10% if the skin has been taken off. I follow the Maple-Cured Smoked Bacon from Charcuterie and just smoked some the other day. I follow the recipe each time and find that the taste of the salt varies. Some are just right - the last batch was, I thought, too salty but still edible. Can you tell me what you would use for a 5 pound piece of belly? I don't know if you have the book or not but it is a dry cure, no water. Thanks in advance if you are willing to share this info.

[jmolinari]

Curing in brine, i've concluded, is at best a random guess on the absorption of the salt and cure, so i really don't do it. When i do, i use an equilibrium brine as described in the FDA handbook or Modernist Cuisine. That way you know how much salt you'll end up with, rather than trying to guess based on brine %, time and temperature.

The FDA inspector handbook is here: http://www.fsis.usda...ives/7620-3.pdf

I tried making sense of this as it relates to bacon but not having a scientific mind, I have to admit my eyes glazed over. I could not get my head around the quantities they use in their examples, other than to reduce the cure by 10% if the skin has been taken off. I follow the Maple-Cured Smoked Bacon from Charcuterie and just smoked some the other day. I follow the recipe each time and find that the taste of the salt varies. Some are just right - the last batch was, I thought, too salty but still edible. Can you tell me what you would use for a 5 pound piece of belly? I don't know if you have the book or not but it is a dry cure, no water. Thanks in advance if you are willing to share this info.

I've never made bacon, but i would probably use 2.5% of the weight of the meat in salt and 0.25% in cure #1. So for a 5lb piece i'd use about 57g of salt and 5.68g of cure #1.

[qrn]

I use the "to equalibirum" method,it works perfect every time, I made an excel spread sheet that you can calculate it very easily either using brine or adding it to the meat and letting it sit,until all is absorbed...
Bud

[Rico]

For the duck prosciutto, he calls for a dry cure of ... salt. Just kosher salt. Just lay the breast on a layer of salt and cover it completely with salt. Then refrigerate for 24 hours before the week-long drying.

So should I cure it in a brine, is there a better way? And by better, I mean have a less salty result and still have it be 'cured.'

[BadRabbit]

For the duck prosciutto, he calls for a dry cure of ... salt. Just kosher salt. Just lay the breast on a layer of salt and cover it completely with salt. Then refrigerate for 24 hours before the week-long drying.

So should I cure it in a brine, is there a better way? And by better, I mean have a less salty result and still have it be 'cured.'

I wasn't looking at the book when I asked the question about brining. The duck ham I made was in a brine and I thought the prociutto must be as well.

Now that I think about it, prociutto is fairly dry and you probably would not want to brine it as the texture would be affected.

[CDRFloppingham]

I don't think that I'll be making stuff like procuitto but I did buy a meat grinder and sausage stuffer for my KA.

Do y'all recommend Ruhlman and Polcyn for the sausage recipes or would you recommend another book for sausage?

TIA!

ETA: I'm interested in terrines and pates too...I guess I'm interested in ground meat charcuterie but not whole chunk of meat charcuterie at this time...Is this a good starter cookbook?

Edited by CDRFloppingham, 08 July 2011 - 03:12 AM.

[lame username]

I had success with the Hunter, Thuringer, Italian and Peperone recipes from the book. Be careful, however, if you make the Pate en croute. It's partly my fault, never having seen one "in person" before. I spent 3 days making it, and somehow glossed over the recipe telling you how to make aspic, but not what to do with it.

Talk about a doh! moment

A few recipes earlier, aspic had been used in a different encrusted pate which could have given me a clue; though I often read cookbooks like a novel, I must have been skimming by then. I emailed Mr. Ruhlman about it so perhaps it has been corrected if the book has a new edition.

Though I was able to make sausages with the KA, the stuffer was very hard to use consistently. Even with my husband's help, the sausages had air pockets and lumpy parts. I ended up getting a hand-cranked stuffer. Being able to load 5 lbs. at once and go slowly was a big help for a novice.

Edited by lame username, 08 July 2011 - 04:57 AM.

[BadRabbit]

Though I was able to make sausages with the KA, the stuffer was very hard to use consistently. Even with my husband's help, the sausages had air pockets and lumpy parts. I ended up getting a hand-cranked stuffer. Being able to load 5 lbs. at once and go slowly was a big help for a novice.

I'm with you. My KA stuffer has ruined more sausages than I care to count. I wasn't having problems with air pockets as much as having issues with the forcemeat getting too hot and breaking. I tried everything including leaving the whole apparatus in the freezer but nothing seems to make it fool proof. I'll be buying a vertical stuffer soon.

[CDRFloppingham]

Damn. Luckily the stuffer attachment is cheap. I'm going to give it a shot. If I'm a good sausage maker, I'll buy a vertical one. If I suck, I only wasted like 12 bucks on the KA device.

No one has any suggestions for a good cookbook for sausages/terrines/pates?

Edited by CDRFloppingham, 08 July 2011 - 05:49 AM.

[Chris Hennes]

I personally recommend R&P for the technique info, more than the recipes themselves. The recipes aren't bad, per se, but they can be sort of hit-or-miss. I still maintain it's the best beginning charcuterie book out there, but I tend to use other resources for the spice blends, etc.

[Chris Hennes]

Re: cookbooks for pates and terrines: I suggest CIA's Garde Manger. It has some good sausage recipes as well.

[PetersCreek]

I don't think that I'll be making stuff like procuitto but I did buy a meat grinder and sausage stuffer for my KA.

To what others have said, I'll add that for me, the KA grinder attachment is just okay for grinding small quantities of meat, carefully prepared. But it got me started for not a lot of dough. A couple of tips that worked for me: cube the frosty-cold meat on the smallish side; and clear the blade of sinew frequently. Both will help you get a clean grind, instead of meat mush.

I found stuffing tubes to be pretty much useless, so I bought modestly priced vertical stuffer. The $125 price tag was worth the frustation saved.

Do y'all recommend Ruhlman and Polcyn for the sausage recipes or would you recommend another book for sausage?

That's the book I started with and recommend it highly as a first book. I also have Great Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing by Rytek Kutas and The Art of Making Fermented Sausages by Stanley and Adam Marianski.

The Kutas book is encyclopaedic. In addition to a mountain of recipes, it covers basic-to-advanced sausage making topics, including the commercial/business end of things. If you make sausage 5 pounds at a time like I do, you'll need to scale the recipes down. The Marianski book is also excellent. Charcuterie is a good introduction to fermented sausages and if you like making (and eating) them, The Art of Making Fermented Sausages will guide you farther down that road with detailed information about various bacterial cultures, incubation and curing times, and of course, recipes. I'll never go back to the Charcuterie summer sausage recipe, having tasted the real deal, fermented style.

Charcuterie should keep you busy for a while, though.

Edited by PetersCreek, 08 July 2011 - 03:08 PM.

[thirtyoneknots]

For pates and the like, I heartily recommend this book (indeed, the entire series is excellent). The look is a little dated, and the recipes can look rather uninspiring on the page, but it is an excellent resource once you've worked your way through Charcuterie's section on the topic. And the lessons you learn there will serve you well in bringing the 1970's era methods (paper-thin fatback, anyone?) up to date somewhat.

And hard to beat the price!

[dougal]

...
To what others have said, I'll add that for me, the KA grinder attachment is just okay for grinding small quantities of meat, carefully prepared. But it got me started for not a lot of dough. A couple of tips that worked for me: cube the frosty-cold meat on the smallish side; and clear the blade of sinew frequently. ...

Its well worthwhile to trim sinew & silverskin before trying to process the meat.
The dog does not consider this to be wasteful.
If you really want to grind the detritus that gets put into commercial sausages, you'll need a bigger/stronger/stiffer grinder. I'd rather have better sausages (and a happier dog.)


And, despite the standard instruction to cut the meat into cubes, do try my suggestion of cutting it into strips of a thickness that can be suspended into the grinder's feed tube - the strips can be as long as you like.



I think that Polcyn's recipes are distinctly American.
Take a look at Jane Grigson's Charcuterie for some authentic French recipes (but be prepared to hold back somewhat on the nitrate for modern sensitivities.)

[PetersCreek]

Its well worthwhile to trim sinew & silverskin before trying to process the meat.

Agreed...but common sausage making cuts contain far more connective tissue than can be effectively trimmed and the KA blade is a magnet for it.

And, despite the standard instruction to cut the meat into cubes, do try my suggestion of cutting it into strips of a thickness that can be suspended into the grinder's feed tube - the strips can be as long as you like.

I was going to mention this and plumb forgot. It works well and has the advantage of taking less time than cutting smaller cubes. I eventually went back to small cubes because it seemed to help the sinew problem (shorter strands)...if only a little.

Now, before anyone gets the idea that I'm trashing the KAFGA, I still keep mine in its original box for the occasional small job.

[BadRabbit]

Over the weekend I made the Tasso ham and it turned out really well.

I was initially concerned that the spice mix was going to be overpowering because there is a ton of allspice but it is actually pretty well balanced one you add it to a dish. Marjoram is not something I use a lot but I really like the herby flavor coupled with the allspice.

I used the tasso to make the red beans and rice from Besh's "My New Orleans" (subistituting for the ham hocks) and it was easily the best version of the dish I've ever had (I mentioned this in the thread for that book as well).

I'll post pictures of the tasso when I get home. I can't post a picture of the red beans because they didn't last long enough to snap a picture.

Edited by BadRabbit, 19 July 2011 - 06:24 AM.

[FrogPrincesse]

I made a couple of terrines from Charcuterie these past few weeks, with good results.

Crab, Scallop, and Saffron Terrine (details here in the Terrine thread)






Shrimp and Salmon Terrine with Spinach and Mushrooms (details here in the Terrine thread)

[BadRabbit]

I have made both of the Kielbasa recipes and really prefer the Holiday one with pork, garlic and marjoram. However, I really would like to try smoking it instead of just roasting as Ruhlman suggests.

I've looked through the smoked section of the book and it looks like they all have slightly different recipes than non-smoked items.

What adjustments would I need to make to the recipe?
Do I need to change from #1 to #2 cure?
Should I add something to help maintain moisture (e.g. dry milk powder)?

Edited by BadRabbit, 21 November 2011 - 08:39 AM.

[jmolinari]

for cold smoked items use cure #1.
for cold smoked and then dry aged (salame) use cure #2.
for HOT smoked items no need to change anything.


no need to add anything, as long as you are careful with your temperatures.

[BadRabbit]

for cold smoked items use cure #1.
for cold smoked and then dry aged (salame) use cure #2.
for HOT smoked items no need to change anything.


no need to add anything, as long as you are careful with your temperatures.

Thanks. I was hoping you were around.

The only reason I was wondering about the cure is I compared a bunch of recipes online for Polish Smoked Sausage and easily 25% called for Cure #2. Just didn't want to make a mistake though I was pretty sure that #2 was not correct.

Edited by BadRabbit, 21 November 2011 - 12:38 PM.

[jmolinari]

i dont see a reason to use cure #2 on product that is hot smoked and then eaten.

[BadRabbit]

i dont see a reason to use cure #2 on product that is hot smoked and then eaten.

I'm cold smoking the sausage but I just got my smoke generator and this is the first time I've used it. I wouldn't have worried at all if I was hot smoking (though it appears I shouldn't have worried regardless).

[jmolinari]

i dont see a reason to use cure #2 on product that is hot smoked and then eaten.

I'm cold smoking the sausage but I just got my smoke generator and this is the first time I've used it. I wouldn't have worried at all if I was hot smoking (though it appears I shouldn't have worried regardless).

Yup, cure #1 will be fine for cold smoking and eating shortly thereafter.

[jnash85]

I took the dive into charcuterie today. This is the venison sausage from the book.



Venison, Pork, and Seasoning by jnash85, on Flickr


Links! by jnash85, on Flickr


Smokin by jnash85, on Flickr


Partially Smoked Sausages by jnash85, on Flickr


Venison Sausage by jnash85, on Flickr

I smoked the sausages for about an hour. As you can see from the final pic there were some air pockets inside the sausage. Will this be a problem for the rest that I froze? Also, I felt the texture was a little grainy. Is this normal? I did my best to keep everything cold during the production of the sausage.

[qrn]

I'll take a WAG at it,, your smoke temps were on the hot side,and liquid turned to steam,should be no problem..
Bud

[BadRabbit]

I smoked the sausages for about an hour. As you can see from the final pic there were some air pockets inside the sausage. Will this be a problem for the rest that I froze? Also, I felt the texture was a little grainy. Is this normal? I did my best to keep everything cold during the production of the sausage.

It looks like the forcemeat is broken and that would account for the grainy texture. That also may be the reason for the empty space in the sausage as opposed to air pockets during stuffing.

If you are positive that you kept everything properly cold, you probably didn't achieve a good primary bind for some other reason.

After my first few sausages had broken forcemeats, I became hypervigilant about temperature and was keeping everything in the freezer. I was freezing my meat to be ground to the point of crunchiness and was even stopping partway through my grind to put the ground stuff in the freezer.

After controlling for all that, I finally realized that I just wasn't mixing well enough to get a good bind. I was so concerned about temp that I was cutting the mix short. For most sausages, I've found that if I mix until it starts to look a bit "fuzzy" I get a perfect sausage every time.

Edited by BadRabbit, 29 December 2011 - 07:52 AM.