825 replies to this topic

[MikeTMD]

Mike, is there any air taken out of the jar?  (You can seal jars like this in a chamber vacuum machine, I know.)  If not, it's not strictly speaking "sous vide" so much as "very precisely temperature controlled."  What were the supposed benefits?

Yes, the air was taken out of the jar - I am puzzled about the benefits of that technique, though. Chef Stampfer did not give any explanation or reason why they employ this technique, although the recipe is quite detailed as far as how to cook this particular dish.

I'll post the remaining steps and photos shortly.

Edited by MikeTMD, 18 March 2009 - 09:02 PM.

[MikeTMD]

OK, here are the remaining steps of

"Skate Wings with Saffron Jelly":

adopted from

Viktor Stampfer
Sous-vide
Cooking in Vacuum
© 2009 Matthaes Verlag GmbH, Stutgart
ISBN 978-3-87515-027-8


Skate was rolled and S-V @ 54C for 30 minutes (original recipe recommends 56C for 25 min, to the internal temp of 54C, but as I said earlier, I see no reason not to cook at the final temp - the time difference would be negligible), chilled and kept cold for several hours, so the natural gelatin can set:



Close-up: look at the gelatin in the bag:



The final product was extremely tender. Notice: there is no air in the fish roll at all, it's homogenous because of the "bloomed" gelatin:



Meanwhile, some tomatoes were baked for plate presentation:



Some were dehydrated for garnish:




Final plate assembly:




Please look at the entire set of pictures on flickr

Edited by MikeTMD, 18 March 2009 - 09:03 PM.

[MikeTMD]

Mike that's a very high temperature, would you do it again?

Can I hassle nathanM or does anyone know the progress of that book of his?

I would - the result was quite enjoyable.

That said, the entire dish was ... I DK... boring.

[infernooo]

Short and sweet: Smoked, sous vide flank steak.

Flank steak here is always tough and chewy when grilled and served rare - even after marinating.

Smoked it for 4 hours (temperature didn't raise above 110f in my home made stove top smoker unlike my Weber Smokey Mountain which runs much hotter) with a basic brisket rub, vacuum sealed it, put it in a 133f water bath for 48 hours.

LIKE BUTTA

Edited by infernooo, 19 March 2009 - 12:10 AM.

[e_monster]

Sounds tasty. I am guessing that if you smoked it for even just 30 minutes and then packed it and put it into the bath that you would get a lot of smoke flavor. I have done a fair amount of hybrid smoking/sous vide and have been surprised at how little time the meat needs to be exposed to the smoke for it to be quite smoky when followed by sous-vide. Something about being packed in the bag seems to enable a little bit of smoke to go a long way.

I am wondering how safe 4 hrs under 110F and then into the bath is? That sounds like a long time in the danger zone.

Douglas, Nathan any thoughts?

[infernooo]

Thanks for the pointers! It is only the second time I have used SV so I am quite happy with the results. Might try a shorter smoking next time and see how it differs. The rub was quite high in salt and sugar so I would imagine it wouldn't be any more risky than cold smoked salmon ?

Thanks again!

[KennethT]

I do flank steak at 131F for 24 hours every 3-4 weeks... comes out great every time...

I also second the idea that a little smoke goes a long way - I've done smoked duck breast - smoked for about 30 min. then into the 131 water bath for a while (past pasteurization times) then into the ice bath then refrig... sliced and served room temp, comes out really good... very nice smoke flavor, and perfectly cooked...

[joseph3]

is it safe to cook short ribs for 72 hours at 133 degrees Fahrenheit/56 degrees Celsius?
Ruhlman Short Ribs
And also does it make a difference if the pump setting is on high or low?

Edited by joseph3, 19 March 2009 - 12:40 PM.

[NY_Amateur]

yes it is safe, per DouglasBaldwinds site (http://amath.colorad.../sous-vide.html for the nth time) you can hold beef at >130f for basically as long as you would reasonably want to cook them.

[tomdarch]

Lots of talk about doing meat/fish sous vide (or more strictly low temperature/bagged/water bath cooking), but I've been thinking about some other possibilities.

When I saw the comment about sealing entire (small) terrines in the bag on a post at eatfoo.com, combined with the idea of the 65C egg, it got me thinking. Could sous vide be the ideal way to do creme brulee? I'm thinking that you could vac the mixture in the ramekin (freezing first, if necessary), then cook in the water bath. One conventional recipe with internal temps I saw said to pull from the oven/bain marie at 170 deg F, with some allowance for carry over. It seems that there would be an ideal temperature in the range of 175F/80C to cook the cremes. You don't want to brown them in conventional cooking, because you torch sugar on top normally, so you aren't loosing that aspect of conventional cooking. The controlled temperature of the water immersion should avoid the hassle of checking them in the oven and the risk of over cooking them.

Basically, I'm trying to rationalize getting a PID/foodsaver setup. I don't eat much meat (not strictly a veg., I'm just not driven to eat it daily), so I'm looking for starch, veg and sweet uses. (In addition to the occasional perfect duck...)

[jackal10]

No need to bag.
Half fill the bath, put a rack over, out of the water and put the food on that to cook in the low temperatue vapour.

Works for custards and delicate things like quenelles that dont vacuum well.
OF course, once cooked they need to be treated as fresh food, since they are not sealed

Edited by jackal10, 20 March 2009 - 05:12 PM.

[tomdarch]

Definitely sounds better than the conventional "dry" oven/bain marie, but it still sounds like its missing the advantage of surrounding the food in X degree water and bringing it up to X degrees, but no hotter. I see that someone here mentioned doing cheesecake in a mason jar - that seems to be along the lines of what I'm thinking.

I'm trying to think of some savory variations, rather than sweet creme brulee. What comes to mind is essentially the potential of soft, consistent texture "omlettes" - an egg base with caramelized onions, cheese and an herb like thyme. (particularly with thyme, I think that it needs time to "infuse")

One possibility where the steam would really beat bagging/immersion would be a sort of "souflee" - you could stabilize a flavored egg foam, then cook it without loosing much of the lift. But that foam stabilization is more "molecular" than sous vide...

On to vegetables - any suggestions for spring veggies or alternative preparations? (as in other than butter+salt+herbs(+sugar?)) Is anyone finishing veggies by sautéing or glazing (e.g. carrots)?

[Ruth]

These approaches are very interesting and worth exploring further. I have made a perfect stock in a one gallon Foodsaver canister and am beginning to wonder whether cooking sous vide with liquids in either a Foodsaver canister or a vacuumed mason jar would be as efficient as doing it in a bag. This would be tremendously useful for those of us who do not have chamber vacuums. Has anyone tried this?

[nathanm]

Canning jars work very well for sous vide for cooking liquids. There was a post on this long ago on the thread.

The jars won't have a vacuum, so the food will not keep as long as food in a bag, but that is OK for most purposes. Just fill the jar as full as you can, seal it, and put it in the bath.

You will need to increase the time a bit because it takes time for heat to penetrate the glass jar - it is thicker than a sous vide bag.

[Ruth]

Thank you Nathan. Actually the jars can be vacuumed with the Foodsaver jar sealer. It works extremely well and is very reliable.

[sng sling]

If you are using a Ziplock technique, you can squeeze most of the air out of the bag by :

Btw, I don't think this has been discussed much on this list, but I don't think it is a good idea to cook in plastic bags that were not meant to have food cooked in them. Ziplock bags and most other such bags were not made to be food safe at cooking temperatures. There are some pretty unhealthy chemicals that can leach out of soft plastics into the food when the bags get hot.

I would be cautious about doing much sous-vide cooking in bags not meant to be cooked in especially if you are going to be feeding kids or young adults or women that might be (or become) pregnant. The chemicals used to make plastics pliable are known to be endocrine disruptors and pose other health risks as well.

You're right that there is controversy about this, but your comment about endocrine disruption is confusing two different things. The endocrine worries you mention are about PVC (polyvinyl chloride) films, which usually contain phthalates used to make them flexible. Zip-Locs (and similar bags) are made from polyethylene, which does not need or use phthalate additives. Although there are concerns expressed, no reliable studies (either by industry or the FDA, etc.) have shown harm from using polyethylene bags at sous vide temperatures. Your mileage may vary.....

[nickrey]

Finally did a topside roast last night. It cooked for 27 hours at 56C (133F). The meat was seasoned prior to vacuum sealing and seared on a very hot cast iron skillet after cooking.

To make the sauce, I heated the juices from the bag, straining off the resultant coagulated portion. Then added a small amount of grated horseradish, sherry vinegar, a ladle full of chicken stock, reduced it, adjusted seasoning and then liaised with some butter.

The meat was melt-in-your-mouth tender.

This dish is definitely going on the dinner party cooking list.

[jackal10]

Quenelles de Voilaille Mousseline

These light pillows have many uses, from a starter or a lunch dish or a garnish for other dishes, Tbe mousseline may be used as a filling for tartlettes or a stuffing for, say, boned pigs trotters.
It is important to keep the mixture cold to preserve the emulsion.

Whizz together
8oz/200 boneless and skinless chicken breast
White of an egg
Ideally pass through a sieve, but I usually don't bother
Over ice mix in 1/2 pt/250ml heavy cream, whipped.

Form into quenelles and place in a non-stick pan, or on a sheet of baking parchment in pan. Float the pan on a waterbath set at 65C/150F and replace the lid. Cook for half an hour or so or until just firm.


(my shaping could be improved)

Serve with Sauce Aurore (light tomato sauce, such as a tomato veloute). Escoffier names this as d'Uzes. Or with wild mushrooms (preferably morel) or asparagus tips

The chicken can be replaced with raw fish (makes very fancy gefillte fish), or raw shellfish, or other raw meats.

Edited by jackal10, 22 March 2009 - 02:49 AM.

[Edward Dekker]

Is it safe to eat chicken cooked for half an hour at 150F ?

[jackal10]

According to the FDA Food Code (revised 2004) the time for pasteurisation at 65C/150F for all parts of the food is 85 seconds. This is based, I believe on a 6.5D reduction of pathogens such as salmonella. Douglas Baldwin gives 3.8 to 5 minutes pasteurisation time for a 7D ( a factor of10 million fold) reduction of Salmonella

30 minutes is well in excess, even allowing for heat transfer to the centre of the quenelle (say 10mm).

Not only is it safe, I believe, but the texture is superior.
Of course if your chicken is bad or tainted to begin with, cooking will not make bad food good.

Edited by jackal10, 22 March 2009 - 04:11 PM.

[PaulDWeiss]

Hi - has anyone tried to use a commercial deep-fat fryer as a sous vide bath? 6 liter fryers are available new for under US$200. The temperature granularity of the fryer is coarse, but that shouldn't matter if the unit is plugged into a controller. If there's a thread which has already discussed this, I'd appreciate a pointer; I found a short one which discussed the use of a turkey fryer, but without substantive information. (In particular, the use of it and the objections to that use were theoretical; no one had tried it, as far as I could gather.) Tanx, Paul

[Holly Moore]

Though not for sous vide, at McDonald's we used a fryer at low temperature, with an oil bath, to reheat precooked top rounds to be sliced for the Roast Beef sandwich we were trying to develop. My boss, a liberal arts major, called it a tepidarium. As I remember we ran it at something like 160F.

We also used a smaller version, with water, to reheat packets of frozen sliced beef in gravy for another variation of the roast beef sandwich. This we just called a water bath.

[gfweb]

you'd need a circulator

[PaulDWeiss]

An aquarium bubbler is the standard for on-the-cheap sous vide systems using rice cookers.

[PaulDWeiss]

Though not for sous vide, at McDonald's we used a fryer at low temperature, with an oil bath, to reheat precooked top rounds to be sliced for the Roast Beef sandwich we were trying to develop.  My boss, a liberal arts major, called it a tepidarium. ...

Sooo, directly from the frigiarium to the tepidarium?

[Holly Moore]

My boss called a frigiarium a walk-in. I think he only had a B.A.

[nickrey]

Hi - has anyone tried to use a commercial deep-fat fryer as a sous vide bath? 6 liter fryers are available new for under US$200. The temperature granularity of the fryer is coarse, but that shouldn't matter if the unit is plugged into a controller. If there's a thread which has already discussed this, I'd appreciate a pointer; I found a short one which discussed the use of a turkey fryer, but without substantive information. (In particular, the use of it and the objections to that use were theoretical; no one had tried it, as far as I could gather.) Tanx, Paul

The temperature granularity isn't all you'll need to worry about. Of more interest would be the distribution of heat. Rice cookers are ideal as they tend to have been designed to have a more even heat distribution because of the nature of what is being cooked. For high temperature frying, this is not as much of a consideration and hence not part of their design.

There will also likely be more heat loss from the fryer as they are not typically as well insulated as rice cookers, which are made to hold rice as well as cook it. As a consequence, there will be more heating and cooling, meaning that there is a good possibility of heat differential across the item that is being cooked. It will also use more energy because of the requirement for additional heating.

Bottom line, it could most likely be done but you will need:

1. a very good circulator, and
2. to be very careful setting the PiD parameters.

You can get a rice cooker for the same price you have quoted for the deep-fat fryer. It is what a lot of us use for sous vide.

I suppose your decision is how much you want the other use of the appliance (ie. deep-frying or cooking rice) in addition to using it for Sous Vide.

[e_monster]

6 liters is pretty tiny and for a lot less than $200 you can get something that will work every bit as well when plugged into a temperature controller. I often use a 6 quart Presto Multicooker that runs about $35. I have had it for 20 years and it works great for cooking small amounts of food sous vide. With a 6 liter water bath, you can cook a steak or a couple of chicken breasts or a couple of short ribs. You will need something with a much larger capacity to cook things like brisket, roasts and the like.

The multicooker is very responsive when used with a PID temperature controller. When the controller is set correctly, I get no overshoot.

Hi - has anyone tried to use a commercial deep-fat fryer as a sous vide bath? 6 liter fryers are available new for under US$200. The temperature granularity of the fryer is coarse, but that shouldn't matter if the unit is plugged into a controller. If there's a thread which has already discussed this, I'd appreciate a pointer; I found a short one which discussed the use of a turkey fryer, but without substantive information. (In particular, the use of it and the objections to that use were theoretical; no one had tried it, as far as I could gather.) Tanx, Paul

[RWells]

Hi - has anyone tried to use a commercial deep-fat fryer as a sous vide bath? 6 liter fryers are available new for under US$200. The temperature granularity of the fryer is coarse, but that shouldn't matter if the unit is plugged into a controller. If there's a thread which has already discussed this, I'd appreciate a pointer; I found a short one which discussed the use of a turkey fryer, but without substantive information. (In particular, the use of it and the objections to that use were theoretical; no one had tried it, as far as I could gather.) Tanx, Paul

The temperature granularity isn't all you'll need to worry about. Of more interest would be the distribution of heat. Rice cookers are ideal as they tend to have been designed to have a more even heat distribution because of the nature of what is being cooked. For high temperature frying, this is not as much of a consideration and hence not part of their design.

There will also likely be more heat loss from the fryer as they are not typically as well insulated as rice cookers, which are made to hold rice as well as cook it. As a consequence, there will be more heating and cooling, meaning that there is a good possibility of heat differential across the item that is being cooked. It will also use more energy because of the requirement for additional heating.

Bottom line, it could most likely be done but you will need:

1. a very good circulator, and
2. to be very careful setting the PiD parameters.

You can get a rice cooker for the same price you have quoted for the deep-fat fryer. It is what a lot of us use for sous vide.

I suppose your decision is how much you want the other use of the appliance (ie. deep-frying or cooking rice) in addition to using it for Sous Vide.

If it's volume and cost that are your issues try an el cheapo Rival roaster. 18 quart, under $40 and with a ten dollar aquarium circulator I haven't had any problems maintaining a temp with a Sous Vide Magic unit. I've cooked everything from fish to 72 hr Short Ribs.

[RWells]

Hi - has anyone tried to use a commercial deep-fat fryer as a sous vide bath? 6 liter fryers are available new for under US$200. The temperature granularity of the fryer is coarse, but that shouldn't matter if the unit is plugged into a controller. If there's a thread which has already discussed this, I'd appreciate a pointer; I found a short one which discussed the use of a turkey fryer, but without substantive information. (In particular, the use of it and the objections to that use were theoretical; no one had tried it, as far as I could gather.) Tanx, Paul

If volume and price are significant issues why not use a Roaster. Presto makes a 18 quart model that is always on sale at less than $40. I have never had any problems controlling at standard auto tune PID with a Sous Vide Magic. Cooked everything from salmon to 72 hr. short ribs with total temp control. I use a rice cooker for most short cooks, but when you need to cook for several folks, Presto Roaster and a rib rack (to separate the bags) are hard to beat.