825 replies to this topic

[howsmatt]

Eggs at 149 are great but require a quick dip in a pan to finish off the whites. The yolks will be unlike anything you've ever had. The one veg I really enjoyed was yukon gold potatoes, I think I did them at 185-190? (look up thread for potato science discussion). The flavour is pure tater, very good.

[GPStu]

You can find 3M High Temperature Flue Tape (2113NA) in most good hardware stores. It is used for stopping air duct leaks, and can be used up to 600 F (315 C).

You pull your bag, put a hole in a corner with a pin or something else fairly small. Then, squeeze out the air. Hold the bag so the liquid is away from the corner hole, and stick on a piece of tape. The tape is metalic, so pre-cut. You may need to wipe the area of the hole with a bit of paper towel to get grease off. Works like a charm.

Stu

[3rdCookFOWT]

Do you calibrate your themocouples? If so, how and how often?

As a chemist, can you weigh in on the capability of any pid to maintain 0.1C accuracy?

I'm not kevin or a chemist, but hey, this is the internet. I did do a reasonable amount of 'controls' work. A PID controller can easily do 0.1C, *if* the system it is controlling is correct. First off, maintaining 0.1C at 'steady state' with no changing outside parameters is pretty easy. Assuming the thermocouple that is responsive enough, and a heater that is powerful enough, "all" you need to do is characterize your system and plug in the P,I and D parameters. A controller might be able to learn this in a specific set-up. It is when you distrub the system, like dumping a thermal load suddenly in it, that it goes off. Now, to regain your footing, you'll have to pump heat into it. So, you will need a more (how much? hard to say) powerful heater. Of course, the heat is localized; to spread it around, you'll want to circulate that water; the more powerful the heater, the harder you will have to circulate. And your PID settings will have to be choosen to have the response you want to that.

Of course, the typical water volume, thermal loss to the surroundings, and typical thermal load can all be guessed for most situations to within some kind of sane guess, so I'd bet it wouldn't be too hard to have a system that can not only maintain 0.1C, but recover to it quite quickly. Of course, it might cost ya.

With a SousVideMagic and a stockpot (9L sideheater 400W) and a fountain pump, I have longtime stability within ±0.06°C, and disturbance with a 460g iceAKKU of -20°C causes a dip of about 0.5-1.0°C with a recovery time of 15-20min., depending on PID settings. When SousVideMagic is run in °C and not °F, PID-values from autotuning are quite acceptable.

[PeterF]

You can find 3M High Temperature Flue Tape (2113NA) in most good hardware stores. It is used for stopping air duct leaks, and can be used up to 600 F (315 C).

You pull your bag, put a hole in a corner with a pin or something else fairly small. Then, squeeze out the air. Hold the bag so the liquid is away from the corner hole, and stick on a piece of tape. The tape is metalic, so pre-cut. You may need to wipe the area of the hole with a bit of paper towel to get grease off. Works like a charm.

Stu

Have any idea if there are harmful chemicals in the tape that could leech into the bag and contaminate the food even at lower than 600 F sous vide temps?

[PedroG]

Do you calibrate your themocouples? If so, how and how often?

As a chemist, can you weigh in on the capability of any pid to maintain 0.1C accuracy?

I'm not kevin or a chemist, but hey, this is the internet. I did do a reasonable amount of 'controls' work. A PID controller can easily do 0.1C, *if* the system it is controlling is correct. First off, maintaining 0.1C at 'steady state' with no changing outside parameters is pretty easy. Assuming the thermocouple that is responsive enough, and a heater that is powerful enough, "all" you need to do is characterize your system and plug in the P,I and D parameters. A controller might be able to learn this in a specific set-up. It is when you distrub the system, like dumping a thermal load suddenly in it, that it goes off. Now, to regain your footing, you'll have to pump heat into it. So, you will need a more (how much? hard to say) powerful heater. Of course, the heat is localized; to spread it around, you'll want to circulate that water; the more powerful the heater, the harder you will have to circulate. And your PID settings will have to be choosen to have the response you want to that.

Of course, the typical water volume, thermal loss to the surroundings, and typical thermal load can all be guessed for most situations to within some kind of sane guess, so I'd bet it wouldn't be too hard to have a system that can not only maintain 0.1C, but recover to it quite quickly. Of course, it might cost ya.

With a SousVideMagic and a stockpot (9L sideheater 400W) and a fountain pump, I have longtime stability within ±0.06°C, and disturbance with a 460g iceAKKU of -20°C causes a dip of about 0.5-1.0°C with a recovery time of 15-20min., depending on PID settings. When SousVideMagic is run in °C and not °F, PID-values from autotuning are quite acceptable.

My reference thermometer is an ISO-calibrated Greisinger GMH3710 high precision thermometer (Pt100-probe, resolution 0.01°C or 0.01°F) which should be recalibrated yearly, and which I use to regularly calibrate all my other thermometers and SousVideMagic sensors and my Voltcraft K202 data-logger with two K-type thermocouples (resolution 0.1°C or 0.1°F). The price of my sous vide equipment (SousVideMagic and VEGA stockpot and indoor fountain pump) was more than doubled by the precision thermometry and data-logging equipment.
I am just finishing a new manual PID tuning series and may probably achieve ±0.05°C stability.

[tkassum]

Here's a question that may have been addressed earlier but it's tough to sort through this massive tome.

I am looking to take the next step in my sous vide life. I am an avid home chef and I have really taken to SV cooking. I've been using an Auber PID and a crock pot with a Foodsaver and my results so far have been very good.

Given how much I've been cooking SV, I think it's worth upgrading my equipment. But I do need to figure out the merits of any purchases before I make them. Cost is not a huge issue though obviously I'd rather save than spend.

I would love to hear the group's thoughts on the merits of upgrading to a full laboratory immersion circulator, or if the money is better spent elsewhere. What will a Polyscience do that an Auber will not? Is a commercial vacuum sealer a better purchase?

Thanks. FYI sous vide duck leg confit is a daily staple in my house.

[Paul McMichael]

There is little doubt that a rice cooker or crock pot with a pid controller works, but there is an advantage to an immersion circulator. My analog circulator normally sits in it's 11 liter bath, which is a great size for a few chops or steaks. When I want to do more, such as a brisket, I can move it to a 50 liter foam cooler - still works fine. I also use it in the cooler set at 4 degrees C. to thaw pork butts or turkeys. The analog controller is OK for most SV functions +/- 0.2 degrees C. It is easy to use. My foodsaver is adequate most of the time - if I were to upgrade something else, a better vacuum sealer would be it.

[e_monster]

What you will get is convenience. If your monetary situation is such that several hundred dollars is of little consequence, upgrade. If a few hundred dollars seems like real money, then spend it elsewhere.

With few exceptions, the additional accuracy won't be noticeable in outcome. But the more expensive units are very convenient and don't need the same sort of fiddling with settings.

Now that I have settings for a tabletop roaster (when I need a large volume bath) and presto multicooker that are stable, I personally don't have a need to upgrade the system. I can do eggs and salmon mi-cuit. So, I my setup isn't limiting me. If I had several hundred extra dollars I personally would use it to upgrade my pans. (The tabletop roaster can be found new for around $40 and can often be found in thrift stores).

But your situation may be different. Convenience certainly has its value.

Here's a question that may have been addressed earlier but it's tough to sort through this massive tome.

I am looking to take the next step in my sous vide life. I am an avid home chef and I have really taken to SV cooking. I've been using an Auber PID and a crock pot with a Foodsaver and my results so far have been very good.

Given how much I've been cooking SV, I think it's worth upgrading my equipment. But I do need to figure out the merits of any purchases before I make them. Cost is not a huge issue though obviously I'd rather save than spend.

I would love to hear the group's thoughts on the merits of upgrading to a full laboratory immersion circulator, or if the money is better spent elsewhere. What will a Polyscience do that an Auber will not? Is a commercial vacuum sealer a better purchase?

Thanks. FYI sous vide duck leg confit is a daily staple in my house.

[PedroG]

Why upgrade to a Polyscience? With an Auber (which is the same as the SousVideMagic I have) you may achieve stability of ±0.03°C, as I just found with some more tuning experiments. I should rather invest in a NIST-calibrated high-precision thermometer with a resolution of 0.01°C or better and a data logger.
If you want to cook on the safe side of 54.4°C but not exceed 55°C, you have to calibrate your sensors and working thermometers!
And if you want to perfectly refine your PID-tuning, a data logger will be of great help for multiple closed-loop tuning experiments. BTW autotuning in °C may work acceptably, but in °F results are misleading, as a hysteresis of 1°F is too small.
I also think you need not invest in a chamber vacuum machine, as we do not need high vacuums, we just want to avoid air inclusions in the bag. Especially with fish and poultry, vacuum higher than 90% (0.1 bar) may result in a mushy texture. see http://www.cookingis...e-of-your-meat/

If you marinate your meat, wrap it in PE-clingfilm (not PVC!) before bagging to avoid sucking liquid into the sealing zone; with large amounts of liquid, use the ziploc-immersion method.
FYI brisket 48h/55°C is perfect, veal shoulder 24h/55°C is even more melt-in-your-mouth-tender.

[dougal]

I am looking to take the next step in my sous vide life. ... I've been using an Auber PID and a crock pot with a Foodsaver and my results so far have been very good.

Given how much I've been cooking SV, I think it's worth upgrading my equipment. ... What will a Polyscience do that an Auber will not? Is a commercial vacuum sealer a better purchase?
...

Apart from (potentially) finer control, my understanding is that forced circulation would be much better when attempting non-equilibrium water bath cooking. When times are measured as a specific number of minutes rather than an approximate number of hours, the expectation is that the water in contact with the pouch will be maintained throughout at very close to the specified temperature - which won't be the case with an unassisted-convection bath (although a 'very large' bath, rather bigger than your crock pot, with manual stirring should be pretty good).
Beyond that, in general, with a circulator the bath should be much faster to equilibrate at whatever temperature you have set. Less 'warm-up' time!

There is a colossal difference between different FoodSaver models. A high end machine with manual control surely ought to be perfectly adequate for home sv (unless you are determined to crush watermelon), however a basic model can be a real pain with liquids.
Unless you are determined to crush fruit and veg, you don't require a chamber sealer.
There are (in the US) $400 machines that are basically rugged, heavy-duty foodsaver-type machines. They have a certain appeal, but I'm not sure that they extend the capabilities (for sv) beyond what you can do with a manual-control domestic model.

Edited by dougal, 12 November 2009 - 03:26 AM.

[GPStu]

I use a hobbyist's hypodermic with a blunt tip. I refill my inkjet cartridges, so I have a bunch of them. The hole is tiny, and while I can't certify the composition of the coating, it would have to maintain its integrity at 600 degrees, so I really am not too concerned at the temperatures within the range of sous vide.

[slkinsey]

There is little doubt that a rice cooker or crock pot with a pid controller works, but there is an advantage to an immersion circulator. My analog circulator normally sits in it's 11 liter bath, which is a great size for a few chops or steaks. When I want to do more, such as a brisket, I can move it to a 50 liter foam cooler - still works fine. I also use it in the cooler set at 4 degrees C. to thaw pork butts or turkeys. The analog controller is OK for most SV functions +/- 0.2 degrees C. It is easy to use. My foodsaver is adequate most of the time - if I were to upgrade something else, a better vacuum sealer would be it.

The scalability of immersion circulators is a major advantage, in my opinion. I regularly use mine in an 20 gallon stockpot, a 5 gallon stockpot, and a 2 gallon stockpot. Just now, in fact, I pulled two whole pork butts and two whole briskets out of the 20 gallon water bath and am chilling them down.

[alwang]

Now that I have settings for a tabletop roaster (when I need a large volume bath) and presto multicooker that are stable, I personally don't have a need to upgrade the system. I can do eggs and salmon mi-cuit. So, I my setup isn't limiting me. If I had several hundred extra dollars I personally would use it to upgrade my pans. (The tabletop roaster can be found new for around $40 and can often be found in thrift stores).

Off-topic, but do you mine sharing your SousVideMagic PID setting for the Presto Multi-Cooker? I've never been able to get it to satisfactorily stabilize.

Thanks,
-a

[tomdarch]

Poached quince worked well: 85C for ~60 minutes. These were "well done" - I had poached quince with a salad (at Blueduck in DC) that was a bit more firm, and I may try shorter cooking time to get that "medium" texture.

The first quince I just peeled/cored/sliced and "poached" straight in the bag to really get at what the qunice was like on its own (very apple like, but with a very nice "something extra" that I can't quite explain - vaguely floral, maybe?) The second one I did, I peeled/cored/sliced and bagged with about 1 teaspoon of honey, and tiny bits of flavoring: 1 juniper berry, crushed, half a Thai long pepper corn, crushed and 2 cassia buds, crushed. I went with the tiny amounts, because of the "magnification" effect of flavorings in the bag - but the tiny amounts I used were too small and I didn't detect any resulting flavor in the quince. I've got more quince, so I'll try again with more of the flavorings. (These are some obscure spices I got for Alinea dishes from The Spice House in Chicago - I don't know yet if they work well with the quince, but they smelled nice going into the bag.)

[e_monster]

Off-topic, but do you mine sharing your SousVideMagic PID setting for the Presto Multi-Cooker? I've never been able to get it to satisfactorily stabilize.

Thanks,
-a

For my Presto Multicooker (which is something like 20 years old). I use P 180 I 700 D 40 and it is rock stable. And the natural convection keeps the temperature is quite uniform as long as there is room for the water to circulate.

Apart from (potentially) finer control, my understanding is that forced circulation would be much better when attempting non-equilibrium water bath cooking.

One doesn't need an immersion circulator for pretty even distribution of the temperature. The multicooker I use or a rice cooker or a hot plate (pretty much anything where the heat source is coming from the bottom) creates convection currents that distribute the heat pretty efficiently as long as the food provides space for the convection currents. At least once the water has come up to temperature.

For things that heat from the side like some (all? crockpots) a $5 airpump is more than adequate as long as there is room for the water to circulate.

(Btw, I am not saying that an immersion circulator would not be more convenient and more scalable -- they are obviously great in that respect)

[blackp]

I must agree.

During the time I was trying to validate my purchase of a rice cooker and a Sous Vide Magic I did many temperature experiments using rice cookers ranging from 3.5 litres to 12 litres controlled by the SVM.

Using a wire rig to hold my temp probe in a fixed position and then repeating the test with the sensor in different positions I could not detect more than 0.5C variance at different places in the tank. I suspect that the reason for this is the fact that rice cookers generally have their heating elements below the tank coupled with the fact that they are cylindrical in shape gives them the best chance to allow natural convection to work well.

One thing I have noticed is that a perforated false floor about an inch above the real bottom of the tank helps the natural convection.

I cannot understand why any home sous vide cook would not use a relatively cheap rice cooker and a Sous Vide Magic. The cost is far less than any alternative I have found so far and the results are excellent.

[Mallet]

The prices for SVM seem to be creeping up, with the 2 models going for $140 and $170. You should easily be able to get a used immersion circulator for that price or less (especially factoring in the extra cost of a large rice cooker or roasting pans etc..). I bought a mint-condition, perfectly clean analog circulator for about $120. For the price, SVM is not worth it IMO.

Edited by Mallet, 13 November 2009 - 05:25 AM.

[MikeTMD]

Just another SV exercise - flank steak/ Atlantic halibut.

I got an inspiration from a dish by Chef Gustav Ottenberg form Leijontornet restaurant restaurant in Stockholm, Sweden ( described and pictured on pp. 280-281 in the new COCO book):

Flank Steak, Pickled Pearl Onions, Onion Puree, Grean Beans, Yellow Mustard Seed



Flank steak was season with kosher salt, black pepper and kebbeh spices, vacuum-packed and cooked to medium-rare at 64C for about 2 hours ( for presentation purposes I decided to cook the entire steak and slice it just prior to service).


Also, same dinner - different dish:

Atlantic halibut poached in extra virgin olive oil, Prince Edward Island mussels, Brussel sprouts, Chinese broccoli and Black Garlic sauce, microgreens:



This dish is inspired by similar plate at Gramercy Tavern in NYC.

Halibut was poached in a vacuum bag with EVOO, fenugreek and saffron @ 59C for about 15 minutes (tecture was fall-apart tender, but not at all mushy), mussels were steamed with herbs, Brussel sprouts were caramelized with butter, Chinese Brocolli puree was thickened with light brown roux.

I absolutely love the 57-59C range for white fish - great and consistent results.

Just for comparison - please look at the original dish:





I would be happy to answer questions, if any.

Edited by MikeTMD, 14 November 2009 - 11:28 PM.

[nextguy]

By the way, has anyone read the Momofuku book yet? It has an interesting "fried-poached" egg idea. I SV'ed an uncracked egg at 45C for 45 minutes and gently cracked it into small plate. The really wet whites were discarded and I VERY quickly fried the gelatinous blob remaining in very hot oil. The texture was very interesting. I haven't seen that technique before so I thought I'd share.

[nextguy]

The NY Times just wrote an article about Nathan Myrvold's upcoming cook book. I thought I'd post it here even though it doesn't necessarily deal only with sous-vide. I wish I could try his cryo-seared duck breast. Nathanm, if you are still following this thread I can't wait to order the book!

Edited by nextguy, 17 November 2009 - 01:25 PM.

[tomdarch]

Thanks for linking to that - it looks really cool, and I'm looking forward to seeing that book!

But I can't resist pointing out: The quote, "Dr. Myhrvold, who once presided over Microsoft Windows..." is followed by, “It’s basically like a software project,” Dr. Myhrvold said. “It’s very much like a review we would do at Microsoft.” And then, "Originally planned as a 300-page discussion of sous vide... the book has swelled to 1,500 pages..." and "He said the book would be out in a year, although he admitted that was also what he said a year ago." Must ... resist ... cracking ... Windows ... jokes!!!!

[Ruth]

I too was fascinated by his method for the duck breast - also the "pressure grill ". Nathan, I am waiting for the book with baited breath!

[nextguy]

I don't know that I agree about his opinion that boiling meat and then coating it in oil is the same as cooking meat confit style. When cooking confit you are not using a neutral flavored oil. I would think that some of the flavor of the oil penetrates the meat just as spices and marinade in a pouch flavour meat during a long sous vide.

[e_monster]

Given the Nathan's thoroughness and intelligence, I feel pretty confident that his statements were based on thorough research and experimentation and were not made without a pretty strong basis.

[dougal]

The NY Times just wrote an article about Nathan Myrvold's upcoming cook book. ...

Oh ... (Or "Uh-Oh")

The book, still untitled, intends to be the authoritative reference for chefs wishing to employ so-called molecular gastronomy — adapting food industry technologies to restaurant cooking.
...
Every month or so, the cookbook team gathers in a conference room to review their progress. Dr. Myhrvold scans each page, points out glitches and sketches how he wants a chart to look.

“It’s basically like a software project,” Dr. Myhrvold said. “It’s very much like a review we would do at Microsoft.”

The project has grown in size and scope. Originally planned as a 300-page discussion of sous vide, an increasingly popular restaurant technique of cooking food in vacuum-sealed bags in warm water baths, the book has swelled to 1,500 pages that will also cover microbiology, food safety, the physics of heat transfer on the stove and in the oven, formulas for turning fruit and vegetable juices into gels, and more.

“And they’re big pages,” Dr. Myhrvold said.

Because he is self-publishing the book, Dr. Myhrvold does not have to convince a publisher or anyone else that such a huge book aimed primarily at a narrow of audience of restaurant chefs makes economic sense. He said the book would be out in a year, although he admitted that was also what he said a year ago.

That specific software analogy is all too apt!

The book would seem to be far from imminent.
And perhaps more importantly from the standpoint of this thread, it is stated that the focus has shifted from sous-vide.

Of even more import to most readers of this thread is that, rather than concerning the application of restaurant techniques in the home, the stated theme is now the application of industrial (and seemingly laboratory) techniques in the restaurant.

[adey73]

It sounds exciting but at 1500 pages of self published technical data sounds like it could be expensive.

[FoodMan]

I don't know that I agree about his opinion that boiling meat and then coating it in oil is the same as cooking meat confit style. When cooking confit you are not using a neutral flavored oil. I would think that some of the flavor of the oil penetrates the meat just as spices and marinade in a pouch flavour meat during a long sous vide.

He did not boil it, he steamed it actually. Boiling leaches flavor. Then it was coated with what he called "fat". I am assuming in this case it's duck fat, not a neutral oil. That would explain why in a blind taste test it showed no difference than a proper confit. It's interesting what we find out when we question some long held cooking beliefs. A few years ago it was the whole idea of "Sear the meat to keep the juices in" that many well respected chefs and cookbook authors still tout. It's simply wrong.

[commonsewer]

Happy Thanksgiving all! It's been a while since I've trolled this thread (which is not to say I don't sous vides often!) To the poster looking to upgrade equipment....have you yet heard of the Sous Vide Supreme? Brand new. Haven't seen or used it, but looks interesting. Here's website. http://www.sousvidesupreme.com/

[tomdarch]

There's a thread started for the Sous Vide Supreme here:
http://forums.egulle...-the-home-cook/

There are a few folks saying that they're received theirs, so it will be interesting to hear what they have to say over there!

[FoodMan]

First time doing duck breast sous vide. I prepared a dish inspired by an Alinea recipe that combines duck, pumpkin, banana and Thai flavors. I know many have recommended removing the skin and crisping it separately, but I have a very good result leaving it on and cooking the skin side over low heat after CSV. Here is the dish.