825 replies to this topic

[howsmatt]

I have and use the times then usually add a good 50% just for the hell of it.

Cut off a good piece of my finger and nail at work today. Lots of time to test some sous vide recipes.

I do err on the safe side but like to know what the limits of the danger zone are so I can be sure to keep away without panicking - if something is left out by accident (aka if others don't follow instructions carefully).

Be careful after knife sharpening day people! Cauterizing your finger with silver nitrate hurts.. a lot.


Matt

[Qwerty]

Take care of your finger man...sucks we've all been there. I've had a couple of bad run ins with the ole benriner so I feel ya.

I've been doing a fair amount of vegetables lately, based on the 185F temp in Under Pressure. Had really good results with carrots, beets, fennel, and turnips. All very good. I don't have a chamber at home, so I'm a bit limited on my liquids I can put in (I do the freeze technique sometimes) but great results on veg. so far.

[DouglasBaldwin]

Personally I'm tempted to try a lower temp.  If I'm correct 136 is still ok for salmonella and his friends. 

It is a matter of time. Chicken can be safely cooked at 131 or above IF IF IF you make sure to keep it at temperature for the correct amount of time. The time is very different at 131 than at 140. So, please see the tables that Doug Baldwin has on his site. Keep in mind that you need to add up two times to know the safe time: the time required to bring the food up to temperature plus the time at-temperature required to make it food safe.

--E

As a note, the pasteurization tables in my guide already include a safety margin --- they also assume the worst on how long it will take the food to heat.

You can certainly pasteurize poultry at 136F/57.5C (see my guide for times), but a lot of people find the color and texture of poultry cooked at 136F/57.5C to be "disturbing." Part of the problem, is that many enzymes are still active at that temperature and can make significant changes in the texture of the flesh in the time it takes to pasteurize. That said, give it a try and tell us what you think.

[howsmatt]

Take care of your finger man...sucks we've all been there. I've had a couple of bad run ins with the ole benriner so I feel ya.

Lol, my only other injury was also with a mandolin-hate those things.

As for "disturbing" I'm a Montrealer so my tastes can be more European, therefore I'm happy to eat food that it quite raw-ish provided the taste and texture are best...don't know about the wifey however. Will keep you guys informed of my findings.


Matt

[Andrew Chalk]

Sous vide for the homeless, part 1

Lots of expert professional chefs helping in this forum but, in a spirit of anti-matter (i.e. maybe what I am about to say doesn’t matter) I thought it would be helpful if a blithering beginner encouraged other amateurs to give this useful technique a shot. To broaden the plastic bag (formerly a tent) still further, I will try and keep the cost down to what an indolent former investment banker can earn begging at a busy city junction in a morning.

When Wall Street Journal reporter Katy McLaughlin wrote a one page article on August 30th, 2008 called “Trying Sous Vide at Home” I cut it out, filed it away, and forgot about it. That’s pretty dedicated, huh? Once a year I go through my filed recipes and sort them out. Any cooking technique where the temperature is lower than my IQ interests me. So, when I came across McLaughlin’s article, I decided to read it. Her instructions were so clear that I thought it would be feasible to try it. However, I would improvise as necessary, the first time, in case it turned out to be a huge disappointment.

A picture is worth a thousand words (and in the case of page 3 of The Sun, many more) and the WSJ article had a convenient step-by-step guide to sous vide cooking of chicken breast. I knew it was step-by-step because the title of the feature was “Step by Step”. With this guidance, I decided chicken breast was going to be the first thing to try. Surely not the first time a chicken’s breast has found itself a guinea pig.
First I had to get a temperature controlled water bath to do the cooking, which could be obtained for only $399 (plus shipping). I dug out my barely used turkey roasting pan since it could comfortably accommodate several chicken breasts. Cost $0. The temperature would be controlled by “advanced twiddling of gas levels on the stove during the one hour cooking interval”. A task made easier by a 2007 Luzon Jumilla.

Now, these here pieces of chicken had to be put in plastic bags and the air removed. A FoodSaver vacuum sealer from Costco sets you back $160 according to the WSJ so off I went to Kroger. A Ziploc vacuum pump set me back $3.79 and the 8 Ziploc 1 gallon bags (the most useful size in my later experience) set me back $2.89. These are special bags. They work with the Ziploc pump. Other vendors have their own pumps that work with their own bags. So be aware of vendor tie-in. I wasn’t even aware that I could have saved 5c on these bags at Walmart. Philosophers say that we may not yet know the full consequences of Caesar crossing the Rubicon, but could they matter compared with the consequences of paying 5c more for vacuum bags down the street? Indeed, what if Caesar had crossed the salad instead?

I put a chicken breast in a bag, added sliced onions, garlic, carrots, butter, salt and pepper. Kroger did not have the fennel required in the WSJ Step so the onions substituted (fennel is a member of the onion family although they never get invited round for Christmas drinks and many of them are in prison). I sealed the bag and pumped the air out. I wasn’t sure how hard I should pump after the obvious air bubbles disappeared so I stopped. The WSJ could have been clearer on this. Then, into the bath at a steady 141 degrees F for 1 hour.

How did it turn out? First, I’m here. So the Chlamydia that is supposed to thrive in low temperatures did not kill me. This must be a plus for any cooking technique – it doesn’t routinely kill you. Second, the chicken was the most succulent I have ever tasted. I have had many fine breasts. Others may have required larger f-stops, but none was as succulent as this. Basically, supermarket chicken that had grown up in a two foot cage subjected to green light for 12 continuous hours and Rachel Ray re-runs for the rest had acquired real chicken taste and retained all its moisture. It was intriguing – but not divine. What was missing was the seasoning one takes for granted in one’s cooking. I e-mailed blogger colleague Kirk about this conundrum. Season first, he advised. I did, and the next batch was much better. He also recommended pumping heavily to get all the air out. I found that helped too.

Clearly this boil-in-the-bag technique had promise. I had an obligation to do a meal for 16 wino friends so I e-mailed them that it would be sous vide, and we were thinking of chicken. I might as well have told them to go get their Chlamydia shots right then. The better half suggested that steak might be more popular (this is Texas after all). So I resolved to try that next (in part 2…).

[howsmatt]

Made a great dinner yesterday- could be a signature dish, although with a more expensive fish.

I cooked Basa SV at 133 (could go down at least 2 degrees). Crusted with pistachios and salt --Hot sear--this alone is awesome.

Made amaranth with chicken stock and apple cider soaked dried cranberries-chopped finely. Would be good with quinoa too-or just put the cranberries in the sauce.

sauce? Brown butter with the cider juice-I tossed in some soy lecithin.

For veggies I made a celery root hash with asparagus and carrots-just sauteed with salt-pepper.

All of these items have great potential for use with other items which is nice.

Enjoy.

[howsmatt]

Hope it doesn't start looking like I'm talking to myself. More results and a question-

Pork tenderloin at 138 and 141-both still too cooked for me before being seared. Grated ginger flavour comes through nicely.

How many times could I cook-chill-freeze-cook....Repeat, without danger of
a) bacteria etc.
b) loss of taste

Would the results be true of 1)chicken 2)tender meat 3)tough-long cooked meat 4)fish 5)anything else you might have an answer for.


Thanks.

[DouglasBaldwin]

As with everything, it depends.

Let us first consider taste and texture. The very best taste and texture is from cook-hold* sous vide cooking. Depending on how long the food will be stored, either cook-chill or cook-freeze** will be better. For short storage times, cook-chill is often better than cook-freeze because freezing can damage the cell structure of the cooked food and alter its texture. For longer storage times, cook-freeze is often better because spoilage microorganisms (which often survive pasteurization) and warmed-over-flavor (WOF) can increase to unacceptable levels at chill temperatures. Repeated cook-chill/freeze processing would only exasperate these issues.

From the food safety perspective, I would also not recommend repeated cook-chill/freeze processing. The problem is not from vegetative food pathogens, but from spores outgrowing and producing toxins during the repeated rapid chillings and heatings. I cannot easily say how many times you could safely repeat the cook-chill/freeze process because it depends on the rate of heating/cooling, the type of spore-forming pathogen present in the food, and the chemical properties of the food. (See my guide for more details on food safety.)

In summary, I would recommend avoiding repeated cook-chill/freeze processing.

* Cook-hold: vacuum sealing the raw ingredients, heating to your desired core temperature, (holding at that temperature until pasteurized,) finishing and serving.

** Cook-chill/freeze: vacuum sealing the raw ingredients, heating to your desired core temperature, holding at that temperature until pasteurized (for a 6D reduction in Listeria), rapidly chilling to limit sporulation, store in a refrigerator below 38F/3.3C for less than four weeks (or freeze until needed), reheat in a water bath at or below the original cooking temperature (typically 131F/55C), finish and serve.

[nickrey]

I did a Boston Roast tonight, high quality beef but a relatively low quality cut, normally used for Pot Roasts.

Did it at 59 C (138 F) for six and a half hours. Vacuum sealed only with salt and pepper. On finishing, I heated a LeCreuset grill pan on our inside wok burner to full heat and quickly seared all round.

The picture probably does not do the meat justice in terms of its colour (it was more pink than grey) but even so I think I'll go down a few degrees next time.

The meat was very tender (my wife said it was the best roast meat she has had, although she is somewhat biased ).

[Andrew Chalk]

Temp. or time? Did it need 6.5 hours?

[nickrey]

Temperature, working on the philosophy that I want to take it to temperature and hold it there. In my opinion, this whole thing of cooking to a higher temperature and watching the time to ensure that it only reaches a lower temperature defeats one of the major advantages of sous vide cooking, which is precision in the final temperature reached.

edited to add: Plus the meat was 65mm thick, I took the time from table 2.3 of Douglas Baldwin's guide.

[Andrew Chalk]

Brussel Sprouts

What temperature would someone recommend for these?

[slkinsey]

I have wondered about brussels sprouts myself, but I am not convinced that cooking through cruciferous vegetables would be such a great idea. The hydrogen sulfide that is usually released into the air would have nowhere to go and you'd end up with an extra-skunky product. It's not clear to me that it's possible to cook cruciferous vegetables at a time/temperature sufficient to tenderize them that does not also produce hydrogen sulfide.

[Chris Hennes]

For what it's worth, brussels sprouts appear in three recipes from Under Pressure, and in all three they are blanched and sauteed, never cooked sous vide.

[NY_Amateur]

I have wondered about brussels sprouts myself, but I am not convinced that cooking through cruciferous vegetables would be such a great idea.  The hydrogen sulfide that is usually released into the air would have nowhere to go and you'd end up with an extra-skunky product.  It's not clear to me that it's possible to cook cruciferous vegetables at a time/temperature sufficient to tenderize them that does not also produce hydrogen sulfide.

I am inclined to agree, for what it is worh Thomas Keller does not give time and temp for brussel sprouts and the three recipes he has them in, in under pressure they are all caramelized/sauteed.

Edit: Wow that's pretty funny I started this reply then when looking for my under pressure copy and then saw I was 5 minutes too late :(

Edited by NY_Amateur, 12 February 2009 - 08:56 AM.

[slkinsey]

As far as I know, the hydrogen sulfide is not produced by any kind of enzymatic reaction, but rather by the reaction of various normally-separate compounds in the vegetable that are able to combine when the cell walls break down. That means that it is unlikely that there is some kind of temperature trick that can be used to prevent this reaction. The cell walls need to break down in order for the vegetables to be tender.

[jackal10]

I'd use 185F/85C for 30 mins and add some butter or oil but I prefer to roast them.

[Andrew Chalk]

Thanks for the replies re:Brussel Sprouts. Just for the record, I cooked them for 200 mins. at 190F with just seasoning in the bag.

The results were intensely tasty sprouts. However, they were mushy and (is this H2S?) the centers of many were RED. Ultra-weardsville.

[NY_Amateur]

weird, I will try this now. I would do 185 and 200.

[zeph74]

Just came back from a course @ CIA Greystone on Sous Vide. Was a great course and learned a lot.

Looking at some low cost alternatives to equipment.

The PolySci Immersion Circulator is pretty much the industry standard, a no brainer.

A Minipack or other tabletop chamber vacuum sealer is $$. I'm looking at various FoodSaver models, since are $150-300 and could be replaceable if broken. Anyone using these, and if so which model do you use/prefer?

Bags - I found some bags over at BCU, which average out to about $0.07 a bag. Just wondering if these bags would be seal-able by the foodsaver? Or should I just go with the Foodsaver bags, which are more money?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[NY_Amateur]

for immersion circulators, just check ebay/craigslist/whatever constantly till you find one and then clean the heck out of them.

On a side note I have a jug of citranox that I used once to clean my circulator and will probably never use again, if anyone is in nyc I will be happy to give you a couple cups of it to clean your new (used and dirty) circ.

I have the FoodSaver V2840 Advanced Design and it works reasonably well even so far as allowing me to vac seal liquids with some finagling.

As for the bags its not clear but my guess is they will not work, anvil out of chamber/ clamp type vacuum sealers need bags with small "channels" for the air to be pulled out of even when the clamp is closed. if you get a bag with out this texture printed on it they will not evacuate properly.

[Ruth]

Just came back from a course @ CIA Greystone on Sous Vide.  Was a great course and learned a lot.

Looking at some low cost alternatives to equipment.

The PolySci Immersion Circulator is pretty much the industry standard, a no brainer.

A Minipack or other tabletop chamber vacuum sealer is $$.  I'm looking at various FoodSaver models, since are $150-300 and could be replaceable if broken.  Anyone using these, and if so which model do you use/prefer?

Bags - I found some bags over at BCU, which average out to about $0.07 a bag.  Just wondering if these bags would be seal-able by the foodsaver?  Or should I just go with the Foodsaver bags, which are more money?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

The Foodsaver will seal any plastic bag but will vacuum only their own bags. There are a few imitation foodsaver bags but they are not as effective. Buy the rolls and cut your own bags from them. Always cut them bigger than you need and they can be reused a couple of times. I turn my bags inside out and put them over a small plate in the dishwasher.
I use the Professional 3 model. It is the top of their line and although nearly $300 I think it's worth the money. I had the Professional 2 for ten years before it gave up the ghost. Mine gets very heavy usage not only for sous-vide preparations but for everything I freeze and for sealing jars and canisters. The new Professional 3 has the pulse feature which makes it easier to use liquids in the bag. If you buy a model that does not have that feature it's best to pre-freeze liquids or oils before vacuuming.

[howsmatt]

Ruth-->

I bought a Sinbo from Doug Care Equipment. It's a bit more "hands on" than a foodsaver but does an equal job once you gain some skill. It's $100 and uses the cheap-o bags.

I would not buy a circulator on ebay- get a PID from Fresh Meal Solutions-(If you live on Canada-shipping is cheap) and aquarium pump.

Search for these things earlier in the thread.

Mr. Baldwin--How strict is this...

below 36.5°F (2.5°C) for up to 90 days,
below 38°F (3.3°C) for less than 31 days,
below 41°F (5°C) for less than 10 days, or
below 44.5°F (7°C) for less than 5 days

Let's say my fridge is usually 40, but goes to 44 for an hour or two per day- does this mean 5 days and out?

What about if it goes above 48 for a few hours? Yes I know this is not good-but I'm trying to get my restaurant to get into SV but there are days when the fridge gets warm with the door always open.

Thanks.

Edited by howsmatt, 14 February 2009 - 11:25 PM.

[Bob_Davis]

Yikes! It took three weeks, but I finally made it all the way through this thread. And now I've gotten up the nerve to make my first post. So I'm now equipped with the PolyScience circulator and a brand new chamber sealer arrived last week.

So far I've tried steaks, many kinds of fish, chicken breasts, and last night I served a dozen friends 48 hr. short ribs. The ribs were amazing and my friends gobbled them up in a big hurry.

I've eaten more fish in the past two weeks than all of the past five years combined. It's so easy to go home for lunch and drop in a bag of fish for a few minutes. I'm convinced that once some low cost cookers hit the market (ala crockpot), this technique will revolutionize cooking at home. Or perhaps, some poor soul will cook up a batch of botulism and kill his family and friends and nobody will touch sous vide ever again.

My downtown apartment has become the nighttime crossroads for a large group of friends. It seems I throw together an impromptu meal for them at least once a week. This, I LOVE to do. At least one Sunday per month, about a dozen of them come to my place for breakfast.

And so, I have a question about vacuum packing omelette ingredients. It would be handy to package up a variety of meat for individual omelettes. Would it be better to package the meats (sausage, bacon, etc.) uncooked? Partially cooked? Fully cooked?

Yesterday, I had some short ribs in 135F water. So I dropped in a couple pounds of pork sausage and bacon. I realize this is only partially cooked. I gave the sausage and bacon the ice bath treatment, then added diced ham and created a bunch of individual servings, which I froze. I wonder if this is a dumb idea, maybe it's better to just package raw, then freeze.

I haven't considered vac packing mushrooms, celery, tomatoes, peppers for the omelettes. I don't know how these items will freeze.

Thanks,

Bob

[KennethT]

Ruth-->

I bought a Sinbo from Doug Care Equipment.  It's a bit more "hands on" than a foodsaver but does an equal job once you gain some skill.  It's $100 and uses the cheap-o bags. 

I would not buy a circulator on ebay- get a PID from Fresh Meal Solutions-(If you live on Canada-shipping is cheap) and aquarium pump.

Search for these things earlier in the thread.

Mr. Baldwin--How strict is this...

below 36.5°F (2.5°C) for up to 90 days,
below 38°F (3.3°C) for less than 31 days,
below 41°F (5°C) for less than 10 days, or
below 44.5°F (7°C) for less than 5 days

Let's say my fridge is usually 40, but goes to 44 for an hour or two per day- does this mean 5 days and out? 

What about if it goes above 48 for a few hours?  Yes I know this is not good-but I'm trying to get my restaurant to get into SV but there are days when the fridge gets warm with the door always open.

Thanks.

I was reading notes of when George Pralus was teaching a class to David Bouley and other pros... he recommends putting cook/chill items into perforated hotel pans with ice - so a layer of ice, layer of bagged items, then another layer of ice, etc... and keep that in your walk-in... he says it's the only way to be sure that you're keeping the item at <34F since a walk-in can get upwards of 55F during service when the door is opened very often.

Before you go about the ice ordeal, you can always try something out by putting a needle probe thermometer into the center of an item and monitor it from the outside - that way, you'll see the difference in temp between the inside of the item, andthe temp of the refrig... depending on the mass of the item and surface area, there should be a lag in change in temp of the item if the refrigerator gets warm for an hour... it won't follow the refrigerator temp... also, once all the items are well chilled, maybe you'd want to put them all in a big pan together - that way, the combined thermal mass will help keep them cool if the refrig. warms up temporarily...

[AVFOOL]

Just came back from a course @ CIA Greystone on Sous Vide.  Was a great course and learned a lot.

Looking at some low cost alternatives to equipment.

The PolySci Immersion Circulator is pretty much the industry standard, a no brainer.

A Minipack or other tabletop chamber vacuum sealer is $$.  I'm looking at various FoodSaver models, since are $150-300 and could be replaceable if broken.  Anyone using these, and if so which model do you use/prefer?

Bags - I found some bags over at BCU, which average out to about $0.07 a bag.  Just wondering if these bags would be seal-able by the foodsaver?  Or should I just go with the Foodsaver bags, which are more money?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

I agree PolySci Immersion Circulator is a no brainer. I use it a lot and I am very happy that I had one. It is very versatile and can be fitted to everything from a stock pot to a full size cooler. I use it all the time and consider getting a second one for just keeping the food, soup and sauces warm during a multi-courses dinner party at home.
However, the chamber vacuum sealer is a different story. They are many different brand and model available and a great variance of price ranges. There are really no great discussions of the various model. I opt for the one that TK recommended in his book Under Pressure - Koch Model 225. It is suppose to be a tabletop model but frankly it is way too big to sit on the table top. I just received it last week and I am trying to return it back to Koch - they are kind enough to authorize the return. However, because of the size and weight (120lb) sending it back is a task in itself. We are still trying to figure out how to do it. That prompt me to write this post. May be others can share their experience with various chamber vacuum sealers. I will share mine with Koch even though I had not used it yet but I do have the unit to look at and be able to give the following observations:
1. It is way too big for counter top. It will not fit on a standard 24" counter (it is 27inches in width) and the top clearence is the biggest problem. If you have any type of shelving on top of your kitchen counter with clearing of again 24 inches, it is too short for the machine to open ( it requires at least 30 inches of clearance).
2. To put oil in the amchine and to check the oil level, you need to open the machine by flipping it completely over the front of the machine and let the top hang over the counter (if you have one that is big enough and can clear the flip and have space for it to "hang out" over the edge. It take quite an effort to open the machine as it was fitted very tightly to to base, it take 2 persons to do this task .
3. The chamber is nice and big but if you spill. It is not easy to clean. You probably have to remove the seal bar to clean and may even need to take the chamber out.
4. According to the manuel , it is shipped without oil but according to the saleman it does have oil in it. However, I cannot fipped the top over because all I can do is open the top on the floor and so I cannot see the oil level glass located in the front of the machine.

It is probably a great machine when it is working but I do not had the chance to use it.
I would like to hear from others who had a chamber vacuum sealer and let us know what is your likes and dislikes about your particular sealer.
Thank you

[Bob_Davis]

I would like to hear from others who had a chamber vacuum sealer and let us know what is your likes and dislikes about your particular sealer.
Thank you

I ended up with the MVS 31 from these people. Your Koch unit seems to be about 25% larger than the Minipack 31.

So far I'm very happy with mine. The chamber seems to be large enough to package up anything I'll be cooking in the foreseeable future. On the website, there's a video that shows how to use suction from the machine to vac seal a bag that's outside the chamber. I haven't tried that yet. Probably won't need to.

When I got the machine, the compressor instructions said it was shipped without oil, but I checked, and it's full of oil.

Also, when I first tried to use it, I could only achieve a 93% vacuum. It's supposed to go to 99.9%. So I called the dealer and they emailed me instructions to calibrate. Very simple. Took about a minute. Now it works perfectly. I'm at 3250 ft. elevation, hence the need to re-calibrate.

Like you, I don't have room on my kitchen counter. So I brought home a rubbermaid cart to set it on. I roll it out of the pantry when I need it. If I'm just going to bag an item or two, I just leave it in the pantry. Works pretty good that way for me. If I'm ever fortunate enough to be able to redesign my kitchen, I will create a special place for the sealer. I don't know how I ever lived without this thing.

[DouglasBaldwin]

I also have a MVS31 (but from this guy) and love it. I haven't used any other chamber vacuum sealer, but it seems very well made and its digital controls are very easy to program and use. It is definitely a space hog, but I suspect that the same is true of any chamber vacuum sealer of usable size.

[AVFOOL]

I would like to hear from others who had a chamber vacuum sealer and let us know what is your likes and dislikes about your particular sealer.
Thank you

I ended up with the MVS 31 from these people. Your Koch unit seems to be about 25% larger than the Minipack 31.

So far I'm very happy with mine. The chamber seems to be large enough to package up anything I'll be cooking in the foreseeable future. On the website, there's a video that shows how to use suction from the machine to vac seal a bag that's outside the chamber. I haven't tried that yet. Probably won't need to.

When I got the machine, the compressor instructions said it was shipped without oil, but I checked, and it's full of oil.

Also, when I first tried to use it, I could only achieve a 93% vacuum. It's supposed to go to 99.9%. So I called the dealer and they emailed me instructions to calibrate. Very simple. Took about a minute. Now it works perfectly. I'm at 3250 ft. elevation, hence the need to re-calibrate.

Like you, I don't have room on my kitchen counter. So I brought home a rubbermaid cart to set it on. I roll it out of the pantry when I need it. If I'm just going to bag an item or two, I just leave it in the pantry. Works pretty good that way for me. If I'm ever fortunate enough to be able to redesign my kitchen, I will create a special place for the sealer. I don't know how I ever lived without this thing.

Thank you Bob. MVS 31 sounded good. You have not mention if it will actually fit on regular kitchen counter with a cabinet on top of counter that has a 24 in clearence? Also, is it easy to clean if you spilled inside the chamber? Is it difficult to change oil if need?

[DouglasBaldwin]

The chamber is quite easy to clean --- it is very easy to remove and replace the seal bar. I won't need to change my oil for another year, but it looks quite easy (it certainly doesn't require to flip the machine upside down!). While you can open the lid about 8in with a cabinet 24in above the counter, you would have to hold it open while you position the bag; if you had 28in from counter to cabinet, the lid could be opened all the way. Personally, I put it on a sturdy stand at the end of my counter (since I already lost enough counter space to all my water baths!).