825 replies to this topic

[Robert Jueneman]

slkinsey and others, this is a fascinating observation, and may help to explain some results I have been getting.

I have a FoodSaver Professional III Plus, which has five different vacuum-level settings. For want of any better instruction, I have routinely been using level 5, the highest.

But when I cook SV hamburger (from frozen), despite it being a nice pink and not at all over-done, the burgers tend to be rather dried out.

Now I'm wondering if the high vacuum is sucking too much moisture out of the burger, and because I tend to pour out any liquid immediately after opening the bag, there is little opportunity for the burgers to re-hydrate.

Similarly, last night I tried one more time with a cross-rib roast from the shoulder clod that produced the bad flat iron steaks. Once again, I got a copious amount of liquid in the bag, after only 24 hours. I opened the bag, decided it didn't smell TOO bad, resealed it in a new bag (again vacuum level five, and cooked it for another hour or so until we were ready for dinner.

I was quite surprised at the amount of additional dark-red juice that came out, the second time around.

After tasting and eating some of it, we decided it was still too gamy, and threw the rest out.

I used the same technique on the two flat iron steaks that were individually packaged, and BTW probably had more oxygenation, and they were quite good, so I don't know if this is a tangent, or relevant.

[Robert Jueneman]

Sous Vide Class in Silicon Valley

I'm being rather brave, and offering a free class/demonstration/tutorial on sous vide cooking next Saturday, June 27, from 1 to 3PM, at the Whole Foods Market at 4800 El Camino Real, in Los Altos, CA. This is a labor of love, and a chance to pay-it-forward for all of the knowledge gained from people like Nathan, Douglas, and all the others on this list.

I know that some on this list live in the Bay Area, and I would welcome the opportunity to meet you in person. And even if you are busy, or don't think you can spare the time, I would welcome any referrals to your SO or friends.

As I said, the class is free, but I am going to be offering some Sous Vide Magic 1500C controllers from Fresh Meals Solutions that I have imported and custom calibrated at four points from 100F to 190F, using my NIST-traceable precision thermometer. The price, including my shipping and handling costs, a modest fee for three days of calibration work, and the sales tax to help keep California from going bankrupt, will be $200. In addition, I will also be happy to perform a three-point custom calibration of your own digital thermometer, to an guaranteed accuracy of 0.1F, complete with calibration printout, for $25.

(Hopefully some people will buy these. If they don't, considering what the equipment, food, flyers & posters, etc., cost me, I may be reduced to sitting on a corner with a sign, "Will sous vide for rent money!" )

The tasting menu (subject to last minute change) will include the "perfect egg" on grilled asparagus with smoked sea salt, 48-hour medium-rare brisket with mushroom finishing sauce, smoked sea bass with apple acid and vanilla oil, and mushroom risotto.

If you are interested, PLEASE call 650-559-0300 to enroll, so I will know how many people are coming.

PM me if you need directions, or would like to print a flyer to give to your friends.

After the class, I intend to post the set of PowerPoint tutorial slides somewhere -- TBD.

Edited by Robert Jueneman, 20 June 2009 - 06:34 PM.

[e_monster]

The picture doesn't do the meat justice -- it was a much deeper (redder) pink in real life than in the picture.

This was grass-fed tri-tip jaccarded and cooked for 6 hours at 133F. My secret sauce was added to the bag before sealing. My wife and neighbors love this and it comes out great every time. I am embarrassed to reveal the recipe for the secret sauce -- it was discovered on a day that I was extremely lazy but has been such a big hit that I am accepting that it is very yummy in spite of how low-brow it is.

Secret sauce: 4 tablespoons Chaka's Mmmm Sauce, 4 tablespoons O.T.'s bbq sauce (which is a sweet tomato-based sauce), 1/2 cap liquid smoke.

After removing from the bath, the meat is allowed to rest for about 5 minutes and then browned with a propane blow-torch and sliced thin across the grain.

Edited by e_monster, 21 June 2009 - 03:05 AM.

[blackp]

Looks delicious. I need an Australian translation though. Tri-tip I can figure out, BBQ sauce in many variants are available, as is liquid smoke but I have no reference point for the Chaka's Mmmmm sauce. What is it and what do you think is in it?

[TitoM]

First eG post, so pardon the stupid question-- are there devices available commercially that monitor the water level and slowly pipe in refill into the bath? I'm always worried leaving the circulator for extended periods of over 12 hours (e.g. stuck at work) as once I came home to my 7306 sputtering after having run the water down. Is a Cambro cover the simplest way to prevent evaporation?

Sorry if this has been asked before several times, I'm exercising the newbie's privilege to ask a few obvious questions ;)

[e_monster]

Chaka's mmm sauce is a vinegar and soy based marinade. I think you could use something like: equal parts soy sauce and white vinegar plus some water or oil and small amount of dried powdered mustard and onion or garlic powder.

The bbq sauce that I use is tomato-based and somewhat sweet (I would see a sweetness like molasses rather than white sugar/honey).

[Robert Jueneman]

First eG post, so pardon the stupid question-- are there devices available commercially that monitor the water level and slowly pipe in refill into the bath? I'm always worried leaving the circulator for extended periods of over 12 hours (e.g. stuck at work) as once I came home to my 7306 sputtering after having run the water down. Is a Cambro cover the simplest way to prevent evaporation?

Sorry if this has been asked before several times, I'm exercising the newbie's privilege to ask a few obvious questions ;)

I don't think it has been asked before, and it's a good question.

I use a 10 liter commercial rice cooker with a tight-fitting lid, so I don't have a problem, even after 48 hours at 131F/55C. Granted, 12 hours at 195F might be a different story, but combination would be unlikely.

I would check a plumbing supply store. You ought to be able to improvise a float valve from a swamp cooler, sump pump, or humidifier.

I'm surprised that PolyScience doesn't have a solution, considering the price of their unit.

[TitoM]

Ingenuous suggestion, Robert, thanks! The only time it happened was when I did 186F and left it over 12 hours, otherwise, anywhere around 155F or below isn't a problem unattended while I'm at the office. The only drawback with the float valve approach I think is that I'll have to keep guests from seeing it

[DouglasBaldwin]

You can also just cover the water bath with plastic wrap (with the plastic pressed down to the surface of the water).

[TitoM]

Even better! I'll try it tonight. And thanks in more than one way, Douglas, your article was the first I've read about sous-vide that got me into it.

[Heartsurgeon]

anyone have any experience with sous vide mushrooms?
i'm thinking specifically about rehydrating a batch of assorted dried wild mushrooms in some stock/butter/seasonings while bagged, and cooking it at the same time as rehydrating. The idea would be to add minimal liquid to rehydrate and allow cooking, and maximize flavor.

anyone have any experience with this? or even fresh sroom's sous vide?

[Sousvidecooking.org]

Hi everybody!

True or not...there is a site that has announced some days ago launching mid August an immersion circulator designed and manufactured by an unknown trademark: Addélice. Their site is not talkative about their product but they said it will be price competitive compared to similarly immersion circulators available on the market.

Wait and see...

Jean-François

[nathanm]

...
Searing the outside first is always a good move safety wise.    Or if you don't want to sear, plunge meat into boiling water for 10 sec.
...

For the avoidance of doubt, Nathan, are you suggesting 'naked' or 'bagged' boiling?

And doesn't this crop up again with comminuted meat products, where the 'outside' ends up inside?

For the pre-sous vide blanching you should do it naked. You could do in the bag, but some SV bags get soft at that temp.

Comminuted (i.e. tenderized, ground, jaccarded) has already had inside and outside mixed, as you say. So there is not that much point in pre-sear or pre-blanch...

[nathanm]

If it's a sour taste, the likely culprit is some form of lactic acid producing bacteria (eg. Leuconostoc, Pediococcus, Lactobacilli). These are an anaerobic bacteria which grow when oxygen supply is limited and carbon dioxide increases (such as in vacuum packaging).
....

Bob

I think that the lactic acid process started prior to cooking. It might have continued a bit after cooking, but the lactic acid and other spoilage bacteria products then stayed in the bag and ruined your meat.

Without lab tests we'll never know.

I do flat iron steak all the time up to 48 hours.

[nathanm]

Nathan, is the book close to publication?

Alas, we kept getting ambitous, so no the book is not close to publication yet. We are working away - there is a team of 6 people working full time on the book. I don't have a firm schedule yet, but will certainly post to the thread when we do.

Just a suggestion for indexing once you finish: It might be handy to have a main component cross reference by temperature, and another by time. It would simplify making a menu based on complimentary techniques.

Stu

Thanks for the suggestion! I'll see what we can do.... the book is large and we have a lot of recipes so a full cross index like you suggest might be unweidly, but perhaps not, I will try it...

[hchildress]

Has anyone else noticed a smell coming from a sealed FoodSaver bag?

When cooking turkey breasts seasoned only with salt and pepper I usually notice a peppery aroma. I doubt water has ever entered the Foodsaver bag. Although the aroma is pleasant, I have some concern about it. My daughter in law, a chemical engineer with kids, has practically ridded her home of clear food containers due to her understanding of soft plastics.

Is there another thread where this stuff gets more discussion?

Hampton

[Robert Jueneman]

On a couple of occasions I have noticed a sour smell in the case of some meat that had gone bad, and others have reported smells like cloves, etc., apparently escaping the bag.

I don't THINK that fluids are flowing into or out of the bag, but I can't prove it, since there is some "juice" in the bag at the end.

In addition, I've noticed that the bag never seems quite as tightly wrapped around the meat at the end of the process, even once it cools.

So I don't think we can completely rule out the possibility that the FoodSaver bags are semi-permeable to either fluids and/or gasses, particularly over a long time.

IFF that is true, it certainly suggests that every sous vide cooking session should begin with fresh, clean water -- something that I haven't always done, because of the awkwardness of draining the rice cooker.

BTW, has anyone tried using an electric canner, rather than a rice cooker? I've seen one with a drain spigot that would be very useful. I've also seen an electric turkey fryer with a drain.

[nathanm]

IFF that is true, it certainly suggests that every sous vide cooking session should begin with fresh, clean water  -- something that I haven't always done, because of the awkwardness of draining the rice cooker.

This is always a good idea. Water is cheap enough that you really should use fresh water on a daily basis. It is possible to get away with re-using water (and I have done that myself), but why risk it for utterly trivial cost.

[MexChef]

Hi:

I recently upgraded to a Polyscience inmersion circulator. It works like a charm, but I've noticed that some sediment has begun to stick to the stainless steel coils... The manual suggests that the water is too hard and recommend cleaning often but it doesn't suggest how... Has anyone had this type of problem with yours? How do you clean it?

Cheers!
pw

[Camano Chef]

Per advice from Polyscience I use a product called CLR, available at any ACE Hardware store and usually most grocery stores. It works great. I usually only need to clean it every few months when I notice things start to look "grungy"

I usually use a smaller reservoir such as a 7 liter Rubbermaid polycarbonate food storage container for the cleaning process in order to reduce the amount of CLR necessary. My normal tank for the Polyscience is a 20 Liter stockpot from All-Clad.

Hope this helps.

[slkinsey]

I've had good luck using a crappy glass vase to hold the cleaning solution. Couldn't be more than 1.5 liters. All you need is something large enough to contain the apparatus of the circulator. It's worth noting that you can re-use the CLR solution.

[Werdna]

anyone have any experience with sous vide mushrooms?
i'm thinking specifically about rehydrating a batch of assorted dried wild mushrooms in some stock/butter/seasonings while bagged, and cooking it at the same time as rehydrating. The idea would be to add minimal liquid to rehydrate and allow cooking, and maximize flavor.

anyone have any experience with this? or even fresh sroom's sous vide?

I did fresh Brown Clamshell mushrooms and was -not- happy with the result. 182 for about 15 minutes. Very slimy texture, none of the yummy brown carmelization from pan frying. Mushrooms are off my sous vide list as a main ingredient, though I think dried ones might be nice in the bag to flavor something else.

[Robert Jueneman]

Heartsurgeon, I assume that the problem with the fresh mushrooms was that they contain lots of water, which boils off when you sauté them. Since you had them in a sealed bag, the water had no place to go, ergo the slimy result. This suggests that you could use dried mushrooms, but then, how would you rehydrate them? I'm not sure whether butter only would be sufficient, but maybe a tomato sauce would be.

But this bring up another thought. Recently I was trying to make onion marmalade a la Jean-Georges Vongerichten, but I neglected the pan a bit too long while trying to caramelize them, and ended up with sticky, burnt mess.

So I've been wondering whether it would be possible to do this sous vide, taking advantage of the lower and more precisely controlled temperature. Then I realized that I don't really know what goes on when caramelizing something like an onion (or a mushroom, carrot, etc.), the essential role that sugar plays(?), or even what time/temperature is required.

I've looked though most of Molecular Gastronomy, by Herve This, but I don't recall reading an explanation. I do understand that caramelization is different from the Maillard reaction, although Douglas Baldwin's technique of brushing a steak with glucose before searing with a torch may blur the distinction.

Conceivably, at least, if higher than boiling water temperatures are required I could do sous vide in oil, in my deep fat fryer, although I'm not about to put an SVM probe into hot oil.

This also brings up a question as to the essential difference between sautéing and frying, if any.

Has anyone tried this, or can someone explain the fundamental principles involved?

[nathanm]

Carmelization is well understood- it is the oxidation of sugars. Different sugars oxidize at different temperatures. All you need is sugar and heat to carmelize. Since it is partial oxidation, there is always a risk of going to far to complete oxidation - i.e. burning.

Maillard reaction involves a reducing sugar and an amino acid. It is related to, but somewhat different than, carmelization. In many food contexts both carmelization and Maillard reaction are going on simultaneously.

Because the term "carmelized" sounds delicious, it has become popular to the point of over use in cooking discussions. This is especially true restaurant menus. Often the "carmelized" item is at least partly browned via Maillard, but you don't find "Maillardized" on many restaurant menus however.

And just to be gross for a moment, the reason that most soils, compost and excrement are brown is because of Maillard reactions.

Yes, you could use a water bath to control either carmelization or Maillard reaction browning. The temperatures are above boiling point of water so you either need to use a very high pressure autoclave, or you need to work with oil.

Oil will work fine in most "water" baths - in that case you are using it as a very accurate deep fat fryer.

However, the bags normally used for sous vide won't work - they melt. Even high temp retort pouches melt.

Precise temperature control from a "water" bath with oil is helpful in some browning tasks, but not as much as you might think. Because the temperature is above boiling point of water, you must watch it to prevent burning. It isn't a "set and forget" operation like sous vide cooking often is.

The difference between saute and deep fat frying is that the latter using sufficient oil to submerge the food, while in saute it is a film that acts to aid heat transfer from the pan to the food. The food is typically only heated from one side at a time, while deep fat frying involves immersion.

[GPStu]

anyone have any experience with sous vide mushrooms?
i'm thinking specifically about rehydrating a batch of assorted dried wild mushrooms in some stock/butter/seasonings while bagged, and cooking it at the same time as rehydrating. The idea would be to add minimal liquid to rehydrate and allow cooking, and maximize flavor.

anyone have any experience with this? or even fresh sroom's sous vide?

I set my unit to 182 degrees and separately vac'd a bunch of veggies and tossed them in. I think I wrote before that I wasn't impressed by any results, except for the mushrooms. They compressed almost like marshmallows, and after 45 minutes (I don't think exact time is too important here) they were great. They were highly flavored, a bit angular because of the pressure, and rendered a flavorful juice. Next time I would do a lower vacuum.

Dried mushrooms sort of scare me from a bacteria viewpoint, but there really is no need to sous vide, I think. The rehydration can be done as boil-in-the-vacuum bag, since the rehydration is really the only point of the exercise. I do this in a microwave in an open container covered with plastic wrap. It might be a little dicey drawing a good vacuum with all the liquid unless you froze it first.

[Sousvidecooking.org]

Question about precision of immersion circulators.

I am trying to compare immersion circulators available on the market and most of the trademarks are talking about temperature stability. For example Polyscience on its main page indicates for 7306C stability +/- .09°F +/- .05°C but I don’t think this is relevant. What is the point being +/- .09°F +/- .05°C stable if your are not at the right temperature. I read that measuring temperature in general was a major issue and to reach a precision of 0.3°C you need exceptional and expensive equipment. What is therefore the technical criterion to look at temperature precision in order to compare immersion circulators?

Jean-François

[Robert Jueneman]

Jean-François, if you'll PM me with your e-mail address, I'll send you a slide deck that I used in a recent class that discusses these points and others.

In it, I argue that absolute temperature accuracy becomes increasingly important as you get closer to the magical 127.5F/53C point of pasteurization. FDA Guidelines set 131.5F/55.5C as the lower limit, at least for commercial food preparation, to allow at least some leeway. In addition, there is an observable difference in the degree of doneness at or around that temperature, but that is a relative, personal choice issue.

For me, I consider 1 degree F or 0.5C to be the upper limit of tolerable accuracy in a thermometer, and I won't recommend one that is off by more than 0.1F or 0.05C at four different points, at 100, 130, 160, and 190F. Many are advertised to meet that standard, but only a few actually do meet it in practice.

Assuming that you have an accurate thermometer with which to calibrate your immersion bath, its absolute accuracy isn't all that important (because you can make a mental adjustment if necessary), but repeatability and stability certainly is. You don't want the temperature to oscillate wildly when you drop is some cold or frozen food -- in particular, you don't want it to overshoot by more than 1F or 0.5C, especially if you have something else in the bath at that time.

Almost any controller, including the inexpensive PID controllers, should be able to hold the temperature within 1F/0.5C. My Sous Vide Magic 1500B (which supports fractional degrees Celsius) routinely holds the temperature to within 0.1C, once everything has come to equilibrium.

Bob

[nathanm]

Question about precision of immersion circulators.

I am trying to compare immersion circulators available on the market and most of the trademarks are talking about temperature stability. For example Polyscience on its main page indicates for 7306C stability +/- .09°F +/- .05°C but I don’t think this is relevant. What is the point being +/- .09°F +/- .05°C stable if your are not at the right temperature. I read that measuring temperature in general was a major issue and to reach a precision of 0.3°C you need exceptional and expensive equipment. What is therefore the technical criterion to look at temperature precision in order to compare immersion circulators?

Jean-François

Both are important.

Stability is important because many temperature controlled devices have large swings - for example Combi-Ovens typically have swings of several degrees C. This makes it impossible to hold to a constant temperature.

When a vendor quotes stability they usually mean for one sensor - typically the water inlet for the circulation pump. A second kind of stability is that within the tank there can be variation in temperature. In a stirred, pumped or circulating bath this variation is minimized, but it is never zero. In an unstirred bath it can be quite large, hence reasons to stir (including with an aquarium air pump in an improvised set up).

Accuracy is also important of course. However, stability is a property of the machine that you can't really change (without changing the PID controller and/or the heating element). Meanwhile every water bath lets you calibrate the sensor if it is off.

Of course you want both accuracy and stability for precise work. With swings of +-5C, it hardly matters what the accuracy is. With 0.1C swings, accuracy becomes much more important.

[Sousvidecooking.org]

Bob,

Thanks for your answer. I'll be pleased to receive your document (info((a))sousvidecooking.org).
By the way I found a very interesting information on polyscience site http://www.polyscien...m/lab/7306.html

Down the page is indicated "*Temperature range and stability vary depending on bath volume, surface area, insulation and type of fluid.
Notes: Performance specifications determined at ambient temperature of 20ºC/68ºF."

I understand "temperature range" = "temperature precision".
Should we also have to conclude that Polyscience machine cannot assess the quantity of water contained in a container, the ambient temperature...and therefore Polyscience can't guaranty temperature precision?

Jean-François

[nathanm]

Down the page is indicated "*Temperature range and stability vary depending on bath volume, surface area, insulation and type of fluid.
Notes: Performance specifications determined at ambient temperature of 20ºC/68ºF."

I understand "temperature range" = "temperature precision".
Should we also have to conclude that Polyscience machine cannot assess the quantity of water contained in a container, the ambient temperature...and therefore Polyscience can't guaranty temperature precision?

Jean-François

The heat loss from the bath depends on the factors cited above. If the heat loss is too large then the bath won't perform as well.

Most water baths are limited to 1800 watts because they use a standard 20 amp electric circuit. This is much less powerful than an electric stove. If you have a high heat loss rate, or too large a bath of water, it won't be able to keep up.

In practice, precision is rarely a problem. Most waterbaths, including Polyscience, will be quite accurate at normal sous vide cooking temperatures. It is important to cover the bath (with a hard cover, or with saran wrap) to stop evaporation - that can cause both large heat loss, and also cause problems if you run out of water.

Temperature precision and accuracy are a much bigger problem with combi-ovens, which are nowhere near as accurate or precise as a waterbath. They are still OK for most sous vide cooking but you must watch the calibration carefully.