130 replies to this topic

[Schielke]

I bought my first Henckel knife mumbledy-mumble years ago when I when they let me fill in in the kitchen of the hotel where I worked as a purchasing agent. The Chef told me if I was going to be serious, I should get some good knives. Where to start? I asked. German, said he. Trident. Henckel.

These names were not familiar to me. Previously I had only seen Forschner, Dexter, etc.--as ngatti says, "house" knives--which I had purchased for prep cooks and general use. So I got a Henckel 10" chef's knife, because no place in town had Wusthof (we're talking Atlanta, 19-mumble). The knife seems fine to me, though I don't use it much any more. But, based on ngatti's comment that the line seems to have changed, I think maybe we're looking at a difference in pre-/post mass market design--like Fender Stratocasters made before and after CBS bought them, or a Marantz stereo amplifier before they decided they just had to be on every bookshelf in middle-class America.

I also like those 3-packs--cute and useful, dishwasher safe, ultimately cheap enough to be disposable.

My Grandfather used to sell Henkels knives in his store way back in the day. I do believe they are completely different products today. The ones my parents still have from his shop are very well made pieces. I have used some of the new ones and, while better than most knives people use, the craftsmanship is just not there anymore.

Ben

[Nick]

....I think maybe we're looking at a difference in pre-/post mass market design--like Fender Stratocasters made before and after CBS bought them, or a Marantz stereo amplifier before they decided they just had to be on every bookshelf in middle-class America.

Not to get off topic, but I wonder what would have happened if Leo had not sold out to CBS. Been playing Tele's going on 40 years and think my latest Mexican one does pretty good.

Now back to knives. Wusthof and Dexter.

[KatyM]

I don't know if it's entirely evident from these photos, but here are two comparable knives (Grand Prix versus Four Star) from Wusthof (top) and Henckels (bottom). I'm pretty sure these are both 8" chef's knives being depicted, though unfortunately the images are not scaled identically. Quality of construction aside, I just think the Wusthof blade has a superior shape. Do you see how triangular the Henckels is by comparison? It really screws up the rocking motion you need to get going to be efficient at repetitive chopping tasks. It's also a much less substantial knife, though that's harder to see.

Wusthof:


Henckels:

[ngatti]

I've been doing this for nearly 25 years and I agree Katym. Quality issues aside, this is the main reason I have always preferred Tridents. But the knife that sees the most action is a Henckel Santuko. I love it.

Nick

[KatyM]

Just to clarify for those reading along, the full names of these companies are:

Wüsthof-Trident

Zwilling J.A. Henckels

So you'll see some people referring to Wusthof as Trident, etc.

[Nick]

Quality of construction aside, I just think the Wusthof blade has a superior shape. Do you see how triangular the Henckels is by comparison? It really screws up the rocking motion you need to get going to be efficient at repetitive chopping tasks.

Katy, That's how I came to use Wusthof only about a year ago. I'd never had a chef's knife and I tried out the three different makes at the store with the rocking motion on an available surface. Wusthof was the only one that "rocked" - the others went "clump."

[Fat Guy]

Oops. Sorry folks. Those last two posts from KatyM, those were from me. I was helping someone straighten out a registration problem and forgot to log out after testing the account! So, Katy will have a leg up when she posts her first post -- her counter is already at 2!

Bigbear: Don't you dare . . .

[Wild Pegasus]

I bought a 9.5" Sanelli Premana Professional chef's knife on the weekend from a restaurant supply store. How would that compare to the knives being discussed on this thread?

[Fat Guy]

I've seen them at Broadway Panhandler, I think. They're nice -- pretty much the quality equivalent of the Forschner stamped knives. The things that are better about a Wusthof or equivalent knife are that the blades are forged (making for a more substantial, longer-lived, and most would say better blade) and that they have a full tang, which is to say the metal goes all the way to the end of the handle. The stamped knives like you're talking about have "rat-tail" tangs that only go partway into the handle. How much did you pay for it? Assuming it's at the level of quality I'm thinking of, it's a good knife for around $30.

[Dave the Cook]

Been playing Tele's going on 40 years and think my latest Mexican one does pretty good.

I never could get into the Fender experience--the rounded neck (reminiscent of the subtle curve of a Wusthof chef's knife) and lack of fretboard. I'm first and foremost a bass player, but when I do need an electric 6-string, I've got an old Gibson Melody Maker. It's a plain, gritty-looking thing (Les Paul shape, but no bindings; dark, dark cherry finish; one double humbucker and one lipstick pickup), perfect for my trashy playing.

the knife that sees the most action is a Henckel Santuko. I love it.

Me, too. 7-inch (?) 5-Star. After that, a 6-inch utility (Wusthof) and a Dexter cleaver. Those cover the 80 part of the 80/20 rule.

[Fat Guy]

I've actually been thinking of picking up a Wusthof 7-inch santuko from the all-metal line (Culinar). Even though in the past I've not loved the santuko shape, I'm thinking I should get used to it given how many pros love these knives. Is there any reason why a Henckels santuko would be preferable?

Wusthof santukos:


By the way is it santuko or santoku?

[Dave the Cook]

None that I know of, except price, but you seem to be willing to pay for what you want. In fact, based on this discussion, I'm planning to look at the same thing.

Probably the main reason I like Henckel is the 5-Star handle. It seems to be made for the way I hold a knife.

As for the spelling, since it is not a word of English origin, there is no right answer, only a commonly accepted form, which is santOkU.

FYI, I believe they also have a non-Granton edge version.

[Fat Guy]

The Five Star handles are nice. I like the Culinar handles for the same reason -- they feel great in the hand. I have some reluctance about the all-metal design, but I figure I may as well have one knife like that so I can make a long-term judgment.

I haven't seen one without the Kullenschliff edge. Is there a disadvantage to that kind of edge? I guess it promotes nice thin even cutting but reduces the knife's utility as an all-purpose tool?

[Nick]

.. I've got an old Gibson Melody Maker. It's a plain, gritty-looking thing (Les Paul shape, but no bindings; dark, dark cherry finish; one double humbucker and one lipstick pickup), perfect for my trashy playing.

An old Melody Maker is one fine guitar. I played one once a long time ago. Offered to buy it, but it wasn't for sale.

[Suzanne F]

Hi, my name is Suzanne and I'm a knife addict.

I am constantly searching for the knife that is perfect for me. I've got F.Dick from school (which I HATE); Sabatier carbon steel and stainless from 30 years ago; Wusthof; Henkels; Global; Forschner; Sanelli (a granton-edge slicer that's dynamite!); Granton (a granton-edge slicer that is not all that great); Fürie; KitchenAid; and Messermeister. Which is "best?" It depends! -- on what I need to do with it. I love my 10-inch Messermeister: it's heavy, it rocks (literally; on its edge), and because the bolster is short I can sharpen it all the way from the tip to the heel. And it has an edge similar to Global. But for work other than chopping, the others all have advantages (and disadvantages). Globals have a great edge, but they are the most uncomfortable for me to hold. Fürie is solid and sanitary, but loses its edge quickly. And so on.

In other words, what's best is what works best for you and is most comfortable for you to use.

Fat Guy: a few years ago there was a piece in the PCD catalogue about which is correct. Unfortunately, I don't remember what they said. If I still have it somewhere, I'll post what they said.

[Dave the Cook]

I haven't seen one without the Kullenschliff edge. Is there a disadvantage to that kind of edge? I guess it promotes nice thin even cutting but reduces the knife's utility as an all-purpose tool?

Maybe I'm wrong, and it's only in the Grand Prix line. My understanding is that the Kullenschliff edge is mainly for sushi. I don't do that sort of stuff, and I keep a good edge on my knives, so I don't miss it.

On the other hand, I've never used a knife with one, except the good old long slicer (used on innumerable prime ribs in my restaurant days) so maybe I don't know what I'm missing.

Suzanne: I'd been wondering about Messermeisters. I guess they're worth a look?

An old Melody Maker is one fine guitar. I played one once a long time ago. Offered to buy it, but it wasn't for sale.

Nickn--believe it or not, I found it at a yard sale in Clayton, Georgia. Our truck had thrown its drive shaft, and while we were waiting for help, we wandered into town, and there it was.

[ngatti]

None that I know of, except price, but you seem to be willing to pay for what you want. In fact, based on this discussion, I'm planning to look at the same thing.

Probably the main reason I like Henckel is the 5-Star handle. It seems to be made for the way I hold a knife.

As for the spelling, since it is not a word of English origin, there is no right answer, only a commonly accepted form, which is santOkU.

FYI, I believe they also have a non-Granton edge version.

Dave, what would be the advantage of the Granton edge. Ive never used one except on a salmon slicer.


Off topic,
Nickn, I'm thinking of picking up a Tele for myself. Would the Squier work for me or should I go for the real deal? I'm strictly a hacker acoustic type. Take the Taylor Big Baby out for a nightly stroll sort of thing.

Nick

[Nick]

Nickn--believe it or not, I found it at a yard sale in Clayton, Georgia. Our truck had thrown its drive shaft, and while we were waiting for help, we wandered into town, and there it was.

That's the way to break down. I broke down once in Georgia (front universal that had been going to hell starting in Daytona.) Didn't have the tools and didn't want to get it worked on in Florida. Got over the Georgia line on 95 and turned off at the first decent exit and stopped at the place I thought might be right. Those folks treated me more than decent. I didn't have much money to get back to Maine and they put it on a lift, dropped the driveshaft, put in a new front universal, took the rear one apart and greased it, put it all together and got me back on the road for $39. Sure was happy.

But, I didn't end up with a Melody Maker. That's a breakdown worth having.

[Jinmyo]

My Wusthof Grand Prix santoku doesn't have the Kullenschliff edge. Nice knife.

[ngatti]

My Wusthof Grand Prix santoku doesn't have the Kullenschliff edge. Nice knife.

So at least we know they are out there. I have to replace the henckel. My knuckles are starting to scrape the cutting board. I guess over the years I've taken a bit off from sharpening and wear.

Nick

[Nick]

Off topic,
Nickn,  I'm thinking of picking up a Tele for myself.  Would the Squier work for me or should I go for the real deal?  I'm strictly a hacker acoustic type.  Take the Taylor Big Baby out for a nightly stroll sort of thing.

Nick

A Squire will work just fine. My next to last Tele ('88) is a Squire made in Japan. The day I wandered into the store there were six Tele's to choose from. Expensive re-issues down to the Squire. Tried all of them - without plugging any in. That Squire played the best. Haven't played it since I got the Mexican. Maybe I should put some strings on and try it again. Main thing is how do they play. If it doesn't play good there's no point in having it.

Taylor. That's a nice axe. I tried one out at the same shop when they first came out. I wish I'd bought it. Sound was kind of a cross between Martin and J-200. Sweet and played good.

Edit: Besides playing good, it's got to sound good. You don't have to plug it in to tell.

Edit again: Sorry to get so off-topic what with guitars and road stories.

[Jinmyo]

My feeling about the Wusthof santoku is that it feels close to some truly superb Japanese santoku (worth about $900 then) I've had the privelege of borrowing for a few hours some years ago. Close. As close as I'm going to get.

[ngatti]

Nickn, Thank you so much.

FG, It's an amzing site. In depth Knife buying and sharpening tips and how to purchase an electric guitar all in one thread. There is always something to amaze me here.

Nick

[Dave the Cook]

Dave, what would be the advantage of the Granton edge.  Ive never used one except on a salmon slicer.

I'm not sure I can add to what you probably already know, but just in case:
The theory is that the dimples means less drag, so on delicate tissues (like fresh or smoked fish or ripe tomatoes), you can cut thinner slices. A corollary says that, on juicy items (tomato again, or rare roast beef), the dimples actually let the juices become a lubricant, thereby helping you get not just a thin slice, but a uniform one. My experience is that one tends to over-exert on large items like rib roasts, and on soft items like ripe, ripe fruits, and you end up with a concave face (on the roast, not you) or a crushed tomato. A granton edge lets you slice with less pressure, so you avoid this.

Not to be confused with a serrated edge.

I know people that swear by them, and they seem to be gaining in popularity. Suzanne can probably shed more light on the subject.

That's a breakdown worth having.

Agreed, but it started out a little scary. The lead car had taken off without us, so we had to dress for the trip in our stage outfits. This was the late 70's, so we're talking lots of frills, lamé or spandex shirts, pants so tight you could tell our religion, maybe a little make-up that didn't get taken off from the night before. Three refugees from the planet of Alice Cooper, David Bowie and Yes, taking a mid-morning stroll through a Georgia mountain town, Deliverance running a tape loop in our heads. I'm sure we were a sight. But those folks were as nice as could be. Listened to our story, offered us sweet tea, talked about the weather while looking at our platform shoes, and let us use the phone to call a tow truck.

Edit: Oh, yeah, sorry for wandering off. You guys get back on topic!

[jaybee]

About twenty years ago, I timidly squeezed my way into Dehillerin on Rue Jean Jaques Rousseau and bought a rather complete supply of knives. Both carbon steel and inox varieties. Large and small chefs' knives, boning knife, salmon and ham slicer, paring knife, etc. a set of 12 6"ers we use for steak knives They all have served me well since. A few passes on a steel before and after each use and they will make even Chef Tony happy.

My Favorite Store

[Fat Guy]

Jaybee, are these Dehillerin's house brand or do they bear a manufacturer's label?

There are quite a few good deals on forged knives out there for those who are willing to do a little digging. These Portuguese knives sold by PCD seem good, and there's a Web clearance on the 12" chef's knife right now. Zabar's has some knives under private label that seem very similar to Wusthof but cost a lot less. A forged knife at a price approaching a stamped knife is an attractive proposition.

[Suzanne F]

Dave the Cook, I've got nothing to add. You got it right! (I mean on the Granton edge; I know nothing about guitars.)

[Jinmyo]

I've used that edge for slicing prime rib. Nice. But somehow I find I hesitate to consider them "real" knives in some surprisingly obstinate way. I'll have to try one out a bit.

[Shiva]

While we're on the subject, can anyone ID this brand? It's my favorite santuko, and I'd like to buy other patterns made by this company (Gold? DP?).



It was a gift, hence my cluelessness.

Obligatory guitar reference-- Les Paul in cherry sunburst (no, I don't play).

[jaybee]

Jaybee, are these Dehillerin's house brand or do they bear a manufacturer's label?

With a couple of exceptions they are all Dehillerin's own brand. They have held up very well in all respects.