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"Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day" Zoe Francois (2008–2009)

Bread Cookbook

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#451 Heartsurgeon

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 04:06 PM

i just lop a hunk off- eye ball it (plum size)..magically works out to 2 batches of 12 mini-buns.

i found it very difficult to handle on large, wet boule. and when i slashed the large wet boule, i have boule-ooze laterally that made it really difficult to move the boule into the oven. the sucker would stick to my peel something fierce to boot..

finally, the family would devour/deface the bread before i had any for breakfast the next day (p.o'd about that).

with the mini-buns, i get to apportion out a certain number of buns per household occupant...

that way i get my share at least!

#452 Jmahl

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 05:11 PM

Just made a batch tonight using Heartsurgeon's formula.  I noted that the amount of flour was slightly more then I had used - 3 oz. more, water the same, salt and yeast slightly less.  Ill report back how the batch turned out.

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Batch turned out very well. Give Heartsurgeon's formula a try. No problem here handling the dough. As part of the 1000 g. we used about 1/2 cup of wholewheat flour and I added 3 Tbs of honey and 2 Tbs of caraway seeds. You would think it was rye bread. A guest who just got back for Latvia said "it tastes just like the bread from over there."

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#453 Heartsurgeon

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 06:26 PM

Jmahl

did you make one large boule or did you make small ones?

i have been told that adding some whole wheat (like you did) increases the depth of the bread flavor.

geez, now I'm going to have to try your modification......
to many variations, not enough time!!

#454 Jmahl

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 06:44 PM

Jmahl

did you make one large boule or did you make small ones?

i have been told that adding some whole wheat (like you did) increases the depth of the bread flavor.

geez, now I'm going to have to try your modification......
to many variations, not enough time!!

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In answer to your Q - We got three nice sized boules from a batch. With the addition of the whole wheat the flavor is deeper. As another variation, a few batches ago I gave a boule an egg wash and then sprinkled with sea salt and caraway seeds before slashing and putting in oven. It reminded me of salts sticks I ate as a child in NYC.

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#455 CanadianBakin'

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 10:55 PM

I baked off about 1/3 of Heartsurgeon's version (exactly as written) into one boule and unfortunately it was all eaten before I remembered to take a picture. It was definitely easier to handle although as was mentioned the large holes are sacrificed. It had a good crust, good crumb and nice body. I'm not sure that the malt made much difference. I'll have to try it again without and see. I think this is definitely a good method for getting used to the way this dough works. After this batch is gone I think I'll try the wetter version again. Thanks Heartsurgeon!
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#456 sparrowgrass

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 08:22 AM

I think I should not try to mix up this bread from memory--I made ciabatta instead of a nice round loaf. Tasty, however, and I will be mixing up some more tonight, with more flour.

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sparrowgrass

#457 ElsieD

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 09:08 AM

I think I should not try to mix up this bread from memory--I made ciabatta instead of a nice round loaf.  Tasty, however, and I will be mixing up some more tonight, with more flour.

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Sparrowgrass, which recipe did you make that wonderful looking loaf from?

#458 sparrowgrass

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 10:29 AM

I was going by memory--I used 2 pounds of flour and 3 and 3/4 cups of water. Regular old cheap AP flour. The dough was way too wet--I made pizza the first night, and just kind of poured it onto the pizza pan. Tasted good--crunchy and light--but it was hard to work with.

The "ciabatta" was made from dough that had been in the fridge for 2 days. It was too wet to shape--I just piled it up on the well greased pan, let it raise for about an hour before baking.

I am going to stop at the store this evening for some ham and cheese--I think it will make nice panini.
sparrowgrass

#459 CanadianBakin'

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 08:51 PM

I still had 1/3 batch of Heartsurgeon's formula in the fridge so I baked it off tonight. The plastic had come loose and the top was dried a bit so I just sqwidged it into the center of the loaf and hoped for the best....it turned out a great loaf and I guess the dried bits had all rehydrated because there was no sign of them. The flavour was great having been in the fridge for two weeks. It is so nice to be able to have fresh, good tasting bread with so much ease.
Don't wait for extraordinary opportunities. Seize common occasions and make them great. Orison Swett Marden

#460 lennyk

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 08:11 AM

After reading about this "miracle" method for almost a year I decided to try last night, mixed up the
1 1/2 each salt/yeast
3 cups water
7 cups flour(I added a little more after so many comments about wet dough)

Lo and behold it was impossible to handle the dough this morning
I gave up and poured it out onto the sheet.

I looked at the many youtube videos of the authors demonstrating their recipe
clearly I must be doing something wrong.
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#461 Heartsurgeon

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 09:19 AM

if you follow the formula exactly, it works great.

you need a scale to weigh your ingredients (bread formulas are typically reported in ratios based upon weight).

small changes in water will have big effects on the consistency of the dough.
also, the flour itself is crucial.
the formula is for King Arthur unbleached all purpose flour. In my experience, each flour I've tried has had a different consistency (using the same formula). That's why you want to pick one flour and stick with it, and tweak the hydration until you get the result you want (the wetter the dough the better, as long as you are able to shape the dough)

formulas are in ratios

for example
75% hydration (which is what i like) means, by weight,
water equal to 75% of the weight of the flour used.

1000 gms of flour
750 gms of water.

bread flours are typically mixed from 65-82% hydration.
more water, bigger holes/better crumb, more oven rise
more water, harder to shape the dough.

i noticed a difference in managing the dough by reducing the hydration from 80% down to 75% ( found 82% unmanagable).

according to what you made..
3 cups of water = 720 ml
7 cups of flour = 770 gms flour

your hydration is 93%.

get a scale (accurate to 1-2 gms ), get some KA flour, try it again.
i didn't check your salt/yeast levels, but again, weigh them out, skip the measuring spoons/cups, you'll be happier in the long run (you will get much more consistent results, and you will be able to make small changes in your formula and get EXACTLY the kind of bread you want).

DONT GIVE UP! its just to easy and tasty..

p.s.

i do all my baking on weekends...i mix up a batch of dough, and don't use it until the following weekend..flavor improves..

Edited by Heartsurgeon, 25 January 2009 - 09:23 AM.


#462 lennyk

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 05:23 AM

Ok, I just mixed a batch using the 1000/750/20/12
will try baking tonight and post results.

#463 Heartsurgeon

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 01:01 PM

as i indicated, i usually wait 1 week before i use the dough. it allows the first rise time to complete (usually takes 3-4 days in the fridge), and allows the flavor to develop. I don't claim to understand it, but the prolonged rise time in the fridge somehow acts to allow the gluten to "align" and mimic the effects of kneading. I have not baked off the bread after an overnight rise in the fridge.
I HAVE baked off bread after an overnite rise at room temp, and that works (no knead).

look forward to hearing your results.

#464 lennyk

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 06:59 PM

Much better results using HeartSurgeon's ratios.
I was able to handle it exactly like how the authors do on those videos and stretch the top and tuck in below, same grapefruit size also.

I would prefer bigger though.
What is the biggest size most people do ?
Obviously bigger will be harder to handle
It would be a real challenge to make a large bread like those famous Poilane.

My slashes weren't deep enough though and I wonder if it is better to slash a little later than earlier since somehow the slashes got absorbed as the dough rose to room temp.

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Edited by lennyk, 27 January 2009 - 07:12 PM.


#465 Heartsurgeon

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 08:23 AM

Yeah Baby! Now your gonna get hooked on making bread (watch your waistline..carbs..)

You should slash JUST before going in the oven.
Very important to put flour on the boule just before you slash so that the knife doesn't stick, and the gash doesn't "heal" shut..makes a big difference.

Slash deep, and try to slash an X shape, your boule will rise symmetrically.
Every little tweak makes a difference.

flouring the "slash" line just before you slash, and pushing a small amount of the flour into the slash line, as well as slashing deeply, has made a big difference in the oven rise i get. You should be able to get significantly more lift to your bread with a tweaked slash.

i use a small, razor sharp teflon coated blade that i use only for bread slashing (i hide it from the family so they don't use it) ( Kuhn Rikon Paring Knife Nonstick , about $10).

if you haven't, get yourself some powdered malt from King Arthur, and the breadiness flavor willl be much improved.

love those blisters on the bread, great looking crumb.

with the correct slashing/flouring you will get a lots more loft in your bread.

#466 tino27

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 08:55 AM

You also need to keep in mind that the wetter the dough, the less effective a slash will be as the slash will sort of melt back into the dough. For instance, I never bother slashing my ciabattas.

And although I rarely do this anymore, when I first started out, dipping the blade in some water right before I slashed lubricated it enough to cut cleanly through the dough.
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#467 Heartsurgeon

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 09:40 AM

i use to dip my knife in water as well, the problem with that approach is that the blade still gets sticky, and the gash can still stick back together. This is even
more of a problem as the dough gets wetter.

that's the beauty of putting a liberal amount of flour over the slash line, prior to slashing. the flour falls (or can be nudged) into the slash, and this prevents the freshly cut edges from sealing up as the dough expands when the oven heat generates steam inside the boule.

you will be amazed by how much more your oven rise will be if you gets some flour down into the slashed area.

on the boules shown, it looks like the slash sealed shut on one (minimal rise), while the second boule had a more effective slash, with greater rise.

#468 Heartsurgeon

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Posted 02 February 2009 - 09:13 AM

well, i'm tweaking the recipe again. now i've substituted 200 gms of the all purpose flour with whole wheat...

we will see what it does to the bread.

#469 Jmahl

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Posted 02 February 2009 - 04:32 PM

I slash mine with a pair of sharp scissors almost to the tray. Never a problem. Adding some whole wheat flour to the total amount of flour works very well. I also sometimes add a half cup or so of rolled oats. Blends right in. Great flavor and fiber.

Good baking to all,

Jmahl
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#470 Heartsurgeon

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Posted 02 February 2009 - 04:59 PM

i agree fully with the deep slash...
but in order to benefit fully from the slash (max oven rise), i found that adding some flour into the slash keeps the cut from gluing itself back together as it rises,
the added oven rise is phenomenal..

#471 Heartsurgeon

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 10:40 AM

well i tried the 20% whole wheat substitution..bleech....

maybe it's me, but whole wheat tastes like saw dust (at least what i imagine sawdust to taste like)

i also don't care to have cardboard colored bread products..unappealing

i'm gonna try 10% and 5 % by weight whole wheat. It may end up that the taste and texture improves as the whole wheat decreases......back to basics eh?

Edited by Heartsurgeon, 09 February 2009 - 10:43 AM.


#472 baroness

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 11:56 AM

well i tried the 20% whole wheat substitution..bleech....

maybe it's me, but whole wheat tastes like saw dust (at least what i imagine sawdust to taste like)

i also don't care to have cardboard colored bread products..unappealing

i'm gonna try 10% and 5 % by weight whole wheat. It may end up that the taste and texture improves as the whole wheat decreases......back to basics eh?

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If you want the whole wheat benefits WITHOUT the color and with a milder flavor, try using King Arthur's White Whole Wheat Flour.

#473 Heartsurgeon

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 10:51 AM

well, went back to basics...fuggetabout the whole wheat..bleech...

my standard formula is bread nirvana...

#474 saluki

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 06:20 PM

well, went back to basics...fuggetabout the whole wheat..bleech...

my standard formula is bread nirvana...

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I sooooooo agree. I used your formula this week and had my most successful bread to date. (only addition was some fresh Rosemary and grated lemon zest).

I think the malt powder from KA has definitely helped.

I have no problem with moving the larger boules since I am letting them rise in a frying pan on parchment paper sprayed with a non-stick cooking spray as suggested in CI. I just transfer them on the parchment paper onto the pizza stone. I peel the parchment off as soon as the bread comes out of the oven an put it onto a cooling rack.

#475 Heartsurgeon

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 01:39 PM

"I think the malt powder from KA has definitely helped"

when i first started with the "artisan bread in 5 minutes", i used bleached all-pupose flour from Sam's Club (bulk all pupose flour). The bread was ok..not great crumb, decent crust, flavorless. I relied on lots of "toppings" for flavor (poppy seeds, sesame seeds, nigella seeds).

i switched to the King Arthur Flour after i ran through a veritable mountain of Sam's Club flour, and noted completely a completely different consistency to the dough, with the same amount of flour and water as before.

This led to a series of experiments (and a digital scale), to come up with the right amount of hydration to use.

Now I had great crumb, nice crust, but still had bland (although slightly tastier than before) bread.

My goal was to at least equal the flavor of the LaBrea bread I was buying at the grocery store.

Perusing the LaBrea bread ingredients, and the ingredients of other commercial bake goods i liked, i noted the addtion of malt...so i bought some from King Arthur. I'm still not sure which is better, the diastatic or the non-diastatic malt....the shipping cost as much as the malt, so i ordered one bag of each..i ended up mixing the two bags of malt together. I played around with the amount of malt, and ended up with the flavor i like.

the final part of the puzzle was shoveling flour down into the slashes to keep the slashes from "healing" shut..that really turbo-boosts the oven rise.

it's been a long carb-loaded road, but it's been worth it.

i'm now working on perfecting the home baked Simit, a super chewy sesame encrusted Turkish "bagel" of sorts...

now i'm experimenting with super high gluten flour's, with low hydration!!
makes for a powerfully chewey experience

Edited by Heartsurgeon, 23 February 2009 - 01:41 PM.


#476 saluki

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 03:39 PM

"I think the malt powder from KA has definitely helped"

when i first started with the "artisan bread in 5 minutes", i used bleached all-pupose flour from Sam's Club (bulk all pupose flour). The bread was ok..not great crumb, decent crust, flavorless. I relied on lots of "toppings" for flavor (poppy seeds, sesame seeds, nigella seeds).

i switched to the King Arthur Flour after i ran through a veritable mountain of Sam's Club flour, and noted completely a completely different consistency to the dough, with the same amount of flour and water as before.

This led to a series of experiments (and a digital scale), to come up with the right amount of hydration to use.

Now I had great crumb, nice crust, but still had bland (although slightly tastier than before) bread.

My goal was to at least equal the flavor of the LaBrea bread I was buying at the grocery store.

Perusing the LaBrea bread ingredients, and the ingredients of other commercial bake goods i liked, i noted the addtion of malt...so i bought some from King Arthur. I'm still not sure which is better, the diastatic or the non-diastatic malt....the shipping cost as much as the malt, so i ordered one bag of each..i ended up mixing the two bags of malt together. I played around with the amount of malt, and ended up with the flavor i like.

the final part of the puzzle was shoveling flour down into the slashes to keep the slashes from "healing" shut..that really turbo-boosts the oven rise.

it's been a long carb-loaded road, but it's been worth it.

i'm now working on perfecting the home baked Simit, a super chewy sesame encrusted Turkish "bagel" of sorts...

now i'm experimenting with super high gluten flour's, with low hydration!!
makes for a powerfully chewey experience

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KA Diastolic is what I used. I also realized that the KA flour that I used is their Artisan variety.
I'll have to remember to force the flour into the slashes next time.

Love the LaBrea bread (I've only been successful with the Silverton grape starter once). After all these months of experimenting with sourdoughs---I like your adaption much better

You might enjoy watching how Nancy Silverton handles the really wet dough here:
http://www.pbs.org/j.../silverton.html

#477 Heartsurgeon

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 01:20 PM

"You might enjoy watching how Nancy Silverton handles the really wet dough here"

at first i thought you meant wet money.....she's loaded don't you know...

#478 devlin

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 02:02 PM

A note about malt powder.... Malt powder comes in two forms, diastatic and non-diastatic. The diastatic is strictly a sweetener, used in breads primarily (I believe) to enhance the caramelization of the crust, whereas the non-diastatic malt develops enzymes which digest starches into sugars and acts as a dough conditioner, contributing a somewhat sweet flavor and acts on the yeast to promote somewhat higher rises. Barley malt syrup acts in the same way as the the non-diastatic malt powder.

#479 Jeff L

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 12:32 PM

I just wanted to give a shout out to Zoe for this really great master recipe. I'm somewhat new to bread baking but can honestly say now that I'm in it for the long haul. I just baked my first boule from the book today and must tell you it's the best tasting bread I've ever made. The dough was made this past Monday and your book came today so the timing was really good. Following everything to the T made a perfectly browned, firm and chewy crust while the inside of the loaf was soft and chewy.

I'm seriously wondering what Amazon's policy on returns are to see if I can send back Reinhart's book!! No more starters for me for sure.

It's really amazing that the dough I started with (kind of sick looking to be sure) could turn out such wonderful bread. Next project will be rye bread mixed with some whole what flour. I'll try to take pics. Thanks again and thanks for being a part of E-Gullet.

#480 CanadianBakin'

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 09:20 AM

Ciabatta buns....do you think I could make them with this recipe? I have the book now and she got the method for Ciabatta. At a good artisan bakery in my area they have Ciabatta buns that look like they've flattened the dough as usual and then just cut it into random squares. How can I duplicate this. The problem with their method is that their sizes are very random (differing by up to 2 inches). One of the caterers I do desserts for finds this frustrating so I was hoping I could find a way to do them in house.
I was thinking I could just pour the whole batter onto a half size sheet pan and flatten it to 3/4". Could I just flour really well and cut them on the pan or would it grow together? Do I need to cut them on the counter and then space them out to rise and bake? I guess I could use a spatula to transfer them. I'd love to know if anyone has already tried this and any tips they might have?
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