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"Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day" Zoe Francois (2008–2009)

Bread Cookbook

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#421 momcook

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 08:24 PM

I've had this happen when I did not slash the top well enough. The bread finds an "escape" at the bottom as it rises.



I'm on my third loaf now--the dough is about three or four days old.  It's gotten progressively better but this loaf has bulged on the bottom as it was baking.  I'm not sure why, and in other respects it looks just right.  Any explanation for this phenomenon?

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#422 MelissaH

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 10:49 AM

Has anyone tried baking these breads on an oiled pizza screen, placed on the stone? I'm wondering if that would make the crust color more consistent, but at the same time reduce the amount of cornmeal rolling around my oven.

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I finally tried my own experiment.

It didn't work. The dough oozed through the holes in the screen, and then expanded in the heat of the oven. I wound up with a loaf fused to the screen, and the only way to get it off was to rip the bottom crust off.

I let the dough proof directly on the screen. I wonder if I'd have better success if the dough spends less time on the screen. But I'm not sure where I could let the dough rise such that I could easily transfer it to the screen and gain any advantage over not using the screen at all.

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#423 bakermomof4

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 11:15 AM

[FONT=Arial]

Anyone have this book?  I read about it over on the Cook's Illustrated Boards.  I started a batch of the dough this afternoon based on information I gleaned from the boards and some articles I googled.

Here is a link to the author's website.

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On Sunday for Mother's Day, I used the Challah dough and made this recipe with it - http://steamykitchen.../01/13/challah/

I didn't have roasted hazelnuts so brushed on the beaten egg on top then sprinkled with coarse sugar before baking. Also when shaping it to make the indentations in each of the three pieces to add the nutella i used the handle of a long wooden spoon to make the indentation and that worked well.

This turned out incredible, everyone loved it. I love this book and I don't even have it yet, just have a few recipes, supposed to be getting it for my birthday in a few weeks! :biggrin:

#424 Graphix

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 11:01 AM

heres a video of a similar technique i ran into on the web. though people might like this.

http://video.stumble...m/#p=3o9ib0j2bh

B

#425 Josho

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 11:31 AM

Dear All,

I've been making this bread for several weeks now with, overall, great success. Love the crust. Love the crumb (after the first loaf, that is; I read through the thread here and took some advice; now the crumb is great).

But I have a consistent problem that I'd love some input on: the loaves tend to rise VERY high in the center. I end up with a loaf that's almost pyramid-shaped.

Initially, I shaped the dough into a ball. Then I tried shaping it like a much flatter round. I even tried having the round slightly thinner in the center. Still, it ends up looking like a volcano by the time it comes out.

Is this a function of poor slashing technique? Do I need to slash deeper -- or thinner?

Many thanks for any help.

--Josh

P.S. Also, has anyone come up with the correct WEIGHT for the flour for the master recipe? I usually prefer to measure by weight (and I was surprised that the book didn't include it). Are we talking the standard 5-oz cup of flour here, or a lighter cup?

Edited by Josho, 29 May 2008 - 11:40 AM.


#426 sanrensho

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 12:45 PM

Is this a function of poor slashing technique? Do I need to slash deeper -- or thinner?


It does sound like you aren't slashing deep enough (or not enough slashes). If cross-hatches are not working for you, try diagonal slashes, which will result in a slightly elongated shape.
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#427 Josho

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 01:05 PM

It does sound like you aren't slashing deep enough (or not enough slashes). If cross-hatches are not working for you, try diagonal slashes, which will result in a slightly elongated shape.

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Thanks, Sanrensho! I've got a loaf going in the oven in about a half-hour. I'll try being a bit more bloodthirsty in my slashes. :-)

--Josh

#428 ElsieD

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 01:11 PM

I've got a loaf going in the oven in about a half-hour. I'll try being a bit more bloodthirsty in my slashes. :-)

Let us know how it works out. I sometimes have trouble with the bread not rising enough resulting in a denser crumb. Any ideas as to why that should be?

#429 judec

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 01:12 PM

Is this a function of poor slashing technique? Do I need to slash deeper -- or thinner?

Letting it proof for a bit longer might help. How long is the final proof for your boule?

P.S. Also, has anyone come up with the correct WEIGHT for the flour for the master recipe? I usually prefer to measure by weight (and I was surprised that the book didn't include it). Are we talking the standard 5-oz cup of flour here, or a lighter cup?

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The weight for a cup of flour in this book is about 4.9 ounces.

#430 Josho

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 03:38 PM

Came out really beautiful...my best so far (at least appearance-wise; I haven't cut it open yet).

Posted Image

I did two things differently:

1. My slashes were a lot more definitive (I did the cross-hatch pattern, which I'd tried before).

2. I gave it a much longer rise on the peel than usual (1.5 hours instead of 40-50 minutes).

Elsie, that longer rise may help the crumb. My first loaf was really way too dense (almost like a white sandwich bread, with very small bubbles). I think I did two things wrong that, once I changed them, helped the crumb: first, I allowed a longer rise on the peel (50 or 55 minutes instead of 40). Also, as Zoe mentioned, the less you handle the dough before putting it on the peel, the better -- 20 seconds is better than 30 or 40 seconds. I think I overworked the dough the first time I baked (and had a dense crumb).

--Josh

Edited by Josho, 29 May 2008 - 04:00 PM.


#431 sanrensho

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 03:48 PM

Came out really beautiful...my best so far (at least appearance-wise; I haven't cut it open yet).


Glad to hear that the loaf turned out well. I was also going to suggest slashes that direct the expansion (oven spring) away from the center top of the loaf, like this pattern:

http://i232.photobuc.../oatbread-1.jpg
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#432 Jmahl

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 03:45 PM

Also, has anyone come up with the correct WEIGHT for the flour for the master recipe? I usually prefer to measure by weight (and I was surprised that the book didn't include it). Are we talking the standard 5-oz cup of flour here, or a lighter cup?

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I weight out two lbs. of flour total for the master recipe.

Give it a try.

Jmahl
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#433 Josho

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 04:08 PM


Also, has anyone come up with the correct WEIGHT for the flour for the master recipe? I usually prefer to measure by weight (and I was surprised that the book didn't include it). Are we talking the standard 5-oz cup of flour here, or a lighter cup?

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I weight out two lbs. of flour total for the master recipe.

Give it a try.

Jmahl

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That does work out to a fraction over 4.9 ounces per cup, which seems to go along with what Judec says. Excellent, thank you!

--Josh

#434 Heartsurgeon

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 09:48 AM

Zoe..greeting from a displaced Gopher (now in N. Carolina).

a couple of questions.

1) convection bake? you thoughts about "convection" versus "regular" bake.

2)flavoring elements..adding malt or substituting beer (Guiness or Anchor Steam beer) for some of the water.

thanks!

#435 Zoe Francois

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 08:14 PM

Zoe..greeting from a displaced Gopher (now in N. Carolina).

a couple of questions.

1) convection bake? you thoughts about "convection" versus "regular" bake.

2)flavoring elements..adding malt or substituting beer (Guiness or Anchor Steam beer) for some of the water. 

thanks!

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Ooops! Sorry Heartsurgeon for the much overdue response. I hope you've been having success with your breads, despite the lack of support on my end!

1) Convection is a wonderful way to go with the bread. Just be careful to adjust the temp, down by about 20 degrees. If your oven is too hot the crust may turn a gorgeous deep brown before the crumb is fully baked.

2) Yes, you can certainly use malt or beer in the breads. It is a wonderful flavor and the beer will even jump start the "sour" or "fermented" character. The amount you use will somewhat depend on your personal preference for the flavor you are going for. In my experience the dough made with high levels of beer does not store for the full two weeks. I found myself adding a new batch of ingredients to some of the old dough after only 7 days. I'll be curious to see what you think.

We are busy writing another book and we will talk more about these options in the next one.

Thanks Zoë

#436 Nyleve Baar

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 12:58 PM

Just discovered this thread after two weeks of driving my friends and family crazy talking about this bread method (and feeding them also). So far I've only used the boule recipe and made, well, boules and a few little sandwich rolls. I want to make the challah this week. Any words of wisdom? It would seem to me that the braiding process would be too much handling for the dough - is it not? How do you keep the dough from becoming overworked?

Nyleve

#437 saluki

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 07:02 PM

Zoe..greeting from a displaced Gopher (now in N. Carolina).

a couple of questions.

1) convection bake? you thoughts about "convection" versus "regular" bake.

2)flavoring elements..adding malt or substituting beer (Guiness or Anchor Steam beer) for some of the water. 

thanks!

View Post


Ooops! Sorry Heartsurgeon for the much overdue response. I hope you've been having success with your breads, despite the lack of support on my end!

1) Convection is a wonderful way to go with the bread. Just be careful to adjust the temp, down by about 20 degrees. If your oven is too hot the crust may turn a gorgeous deep brown before the crumb is fully baked.

2) Yes, you can certainly use malt or beer in the breads. It is a wonderful flavor and the beer will even jump start the "sour" or "fermented" character. The amount you use will somewhat depend on your personal preference for the flavor you are going for. In my experience the dough made with high levels of beer does not store for the full two weeks. I found myself adding a new batch of ingredients to some of the old dough after only 7 days. I'll be curious to see what you think.

We are busy writing another book and we will talk more about these options in the next one.

Thanks Zoë

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Zoe,
I was wondering if you have tried using Lambic beer in the bread. I remember reading that Metropolitan bakery in Philly uses starters made from grapes and such. I was wondering if the addition of this kind of beer would work along those lines. I was considering investing in a bottle of Lindemans Framboise. Any thoughts on how this could work out in your recipe?

#438 RobertCollins

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 01:29 PM

[\quote]
If you find the recipe for the ricotta cheese, please share it with us.

Thanks, Zoe

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[/quote]post#131

From Rikki Carroll's Home Cheese Making two choices.

both are from whole milk rather than the reheated Ewe's whey they are traditionally made from.


Whole-Milk Ricotta

1 gal.whole milk
1 teaspoon citric acid disolved in 1/4 cup cool water
1 tsp cheese salt (optional0
1-2 Tbls Heavy Cream (optional)

1. Add citric acid sol'n and salt into milk and mix well
2. In a pot heat the milk to 185-195°F-don't boil- stir a lot to prevent scortching.
3. As soon as the curds separate-make sure there is no milky whey- TURN OFF the heat. let it set undisturbed for 10 minutes.
4.Line a colinder with butter muslin, ladle the curds into the cloth. Tie the corners together and suspend to drain for 20-30 minutes or until you are happy with its consistoncy. I fyou want it creamier, add at the end and mix well.
5. Store covered 1-2 week in reefer.
Yd. 1 1/2 #


Whole Goat milk Ricotta

1 gal whole goats milk
1/4 cup cider vinegar
3 Tblsp Butter melted
1/2 teasp baking Soda

1. Heat milk to 195°-Again DO NOT Boil.will result in a cooked flavor.
2. Stir in the vinegar a little at a time--Watch for the clear seperation of the whey. if it is still milky when you've added all the vinegar, increase the heat to 205°. Adding too much vinegar will make it tast sour or acidic.
3.use a slotted spoon to ladle the curds to the muslin
4. Drain for 1 minute, place curds in a bowl.
5. Add the butter and baking soda and mix well
6.Store covered in reefer for up to a week

Yd. about 2 #

While I have para phrased Ricki Carroll's wording, These are her recipes From her great book Home Cheese Making : recipes for 75 home made cheeses©2002, 3rd ed. , It is a great addition to my collection.

edit to add: I bought the book this morning and spent a delightful lunch-time reading in it. What a great job the authors Zoe and Jeff have done.

Edited by RobertCollins, 11 August 2008 - 01:44 PM.

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#439 Heartsurgeon

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 11:10 AM

well, i bought some non-diastatic barley malt from King Arthur Flour, added 20 grams to 1000 grams of flour (80% hydration)

extended rise time (i like 2 hours or more)

excellent crumb
flavor improved nicely..more "bready"

just started to experiment with it..

not sure how it effects the crust..in the current batch of bread, the crust seems thinner..don't know if its the malt, or the cooking time

i will report back as the experiments proceed.

Edited by Heartsurgeon, 26 August 2008 - 07:50 AM.


#440 Heartsurgeon

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 10:30 AM

I have tried several malt additives and have the following observations:

1)substituted a bottle of "malta" drink for an equal volume of liquid..added plenty of malt flavor, didn't really think it was perfect..
2)added non-diastatic malt and diastatic maltto the mix..love it

my current formula is
1000 gms flour
750 gms water
20 gms salt
20 gms malt (a 50:50 mix of diastatic and non-diastatic malt powder)
12 gms of yeast

I form "mini-boules" - individual size servings (about 24 per batch of dough), let them rise for 2 hours.

about 15-20 minutes at 450-500/degrees on a baking stone, with the requisite cup 'o water in the broiler pan underneath.

fab crumb, excellent "bready" flavor, nice crust.

#441 tino27

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 10:39 AM

I have tried several malt additives and have  the following observations:

1)substituted a bottle of "malta" drink for an equal volume of liquid..added plenty of malt flavor, didn't really think it was perfect..
2)added non-diastatic malt and diastatic maltto the mix..love it

my current formula is
1000 gms flour
750 gms water
20 gms salt
20 gms malt (a 50:50 mix of diastatic and non-diastatic malt powder)
12 gms of yeast

I form "mini-boules" - individual size servings (about 24 per batch of dough), let them rise for 2 hours.

about 15-20 minutes at 450-500/degrees on a baking stone, with the requisite cup 'o water in the broiler pan underneath.

fab crumb, excellent "bready" flavor, nice crust.

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What type of yeast are you using?
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#442 Heartsurgeon

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 09:19 PM

fleischman's instant yeast

2 pounds for less than $5.00 at Sam's Club.

i've tried all sorts of different yeasts and i can't tell any difference between them. this stuff is cheap and plentiful.

i keep this stuff in a vacuum sealed container in the fridge

#443 Pucca

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 08:31 PM

After taking months to finally try the master recipe, I regret not trying it sooner. We made it tonight, and it was delicious. I did not read the entire thread until today, and it scared me. I made the dough on Saturday afternoon, and did not use my scale. I halved the recipe and used KA's AP flour. My slashes were not very deep, but I don't think it compromised the end result. I can't wait to make more bread, but I hope it wasn't just beginners' luck.

Posted Image

P.S. When you reuse the bucket w/o washing it, do you make the next batch of dough right away or can you wait a couple of days and just leave the empty bucket in the fridge until you're ready to make the next batch?

Edited by Pucca, 06 January 2009 - 08:27 AM.


#444 Jmahl

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 07:52 PM

After taking months to finally try the master recipe, I regret not trying it sooner.  We made it tonight, and it was delicious.  I did not read the entire thread until today, and it scared me.  I made the dough on Saturday afternoon, and did not use my scale.  I halved the recipe and used KA's AP flour.  My slashes were not very deep, but I don't think it compromised the end result.  I can't wait to make more bread, but I hope it wasn't just beginners' luck. 

Posted Image

P.S. When you reuse the bucket w/o washing it, do you make the next batch of dough right away or can you wait a couple of days and just leave the empty bucket in the fridge until you're ready to make the next batch?

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As far as using the bucket either way works for us. As far as slashing, we use a scissor and slash really deeply - almost to the sheet pan. Three or four slashes work fine and give you a long loaf. Slash tic-tac-do and you get a round loaf. Hope this helps.

Jmahl
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#445 Heartsurgeon

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 11:21 AM

you should get a scale if your serious about making bread.

i started out with a wet bread formula

1000 gms flour
820 gms water
25 gms salt
12 gms yeats

the bread was hard to control (floppy) and tasted salty
i reduced the salt, and did a series of experiments adjusting hydration down to see how it would effect the crumb and crust.

ended up with a nice crust, nice salt level, and wet enough to have great crumb, but managable to handle (no runny/floppy).

ended up at
1000 flour
750 water
20 salt
12 yeast.

still craved a real "bready" flavor...noted that my favorite store bought breads had "malt" added....

got some malt from K.A.

ended up with adding 20 gms of malt...
increased the second rise to 2 hours to maximize the crumb...

voila! my personal best bread recipe..

if you don't have a scale, the variablity of your ingredients (as measured) will kill your ability to fine tune and reproducibly make your bread.

#446 Jmahl

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 05:25 PM

Heartsurgeon:

I am going to try your formula tonight.

Jmahl
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#447 CanadianBakin'

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 10:26 PM

Heartsurgeon:

I am going to try your formula tonight.

Jmahl

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Me too!

edited to add: Just noticed the time, I guess it will have to be tomorrow :).

Edited by CanadianBakin', 08 January 2009 - 10:28 PM.

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#448 Heartsurgeon

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 02:31 PM

i should add..i use a pizza stone in the oven
i run my oven on convection bake
i for the bread to make "mini-boules" - i get about 24 out of 1 batch of dough

i form then in hand (about the size of a plum), place them on a silpat sprinkled with corn meal.

i dust them with flour at the end of the rise period, and slash them with an X using a really sharp teflon coated knife.

i transfer them from the silpat to the baking stone using a non-stick spatula.

i went to the mini-boules, because the big boule was just to runny and loose, and was not managable (couldn't easily get it into the oven without having it ooze all over the place.

i use the silpat + corn meal because i had problems with the boules sticking to what ever surface i let themn rise on.

finally, the non stick knife and the non-stick spatula complete my tools use to transfer the little mini-boules to the oven. they are still fairly soft and sticky. how anyone works with 80%+ hydrate dough..i have no idea.

the mini-boules also let me apportion the bread amongst the family members...a single big loaf just gets eaten up and i don't see any of it. with the mini-boules, each family member is allotted a fix number of boules they can consume....just don't touch mine!!

you need to find a system that works for you..the technical problems i had was in physically handling the wet dough..

my answer was to reduce hydration (which reduced the crumb). to counter that, i increased rise time to 2 hours.

i also reduced the size of the boule..

to counter stickiness, i got the teflon coated paring knife to slash the bread (then run about $10.00), and a non-stick spatula to transfer the boules to the pizza stone.

to increase yuminess, i tried different kinds of malt..found the mix that i liked.

good luck..you may find what works for your circumstances may be different, or you prefer a different bread than i do.

lemme know how it turns out.

#449 Jmahl

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 05:45 PM

Just made a batch tonight using Heartsurgeon's formula. I noted that the amount of flour was slightly more then I had used - 3 oz. more, water the same, salt and yeast slightly less. Ill report back how the batch turned out.

Jmahl
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#450 CanadianBakin'

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 12:35 PM

i should add..i use a pizza stone in the oven
i run my oven on convection bake
i for the bread to make "mini-boules" - i get about 24 out of 1 batch of dough

i form then in hand (about the size of a plum), place them on a silpat sprinkled with corn meal.

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My dough is ready in the fridge but I probably won't bake them till Monday. I'm wondering how you make 24 "mini-boules" without handling too much? Do you just cut off a small chunk at a time? I normally would weigh them out so they were all the same but this would make for a lot of handling.
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