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Sugar Cane syrup


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#61 KarenS

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Posted 11 January 2003 - 01:06 AM

Steve Klc, What is with that wedding cake picture? It seems so boring with the sugar cube fondant. I am the woman who makes wedding cakes every-day.I love life. I have never thought of letting things go.

#62 Steve Klc

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Posted 11 January 2003 - 08:15 AM

I've recently posted a few thoughts about fondant and wedding cakes here:

http://forums.egulle...t=0#entry188954

But this has to do with being a stage how? If I thought you were actually interested I'd tell you the story behind that cake--how it came about and how it ended up on the cover of British Cake Decoration--at the time quite significant for an "American" because only one of Colette Peters fancifully distinct creations had made their cover. I was the second American so featured, and apparently should consider myself very lucky. (For the record, I considered myself fortunate and lucky, because I see talented people go under-recognized by the media far too often.)

Since you make wedding cakes as well you know brides have different expectations, different notions of what is boring, beautiful, elegant or funky. As an artist I try to identify and then surpass those expectations for each individual client. That's what I try to impart on the stages and students I've had over the years, it isn't necessarily about tips or trucs or recipes but a way of seeing, a way of approaching your work, your client and yourself. As far as grasping the beauty inherent in this particular cake of mine, well, I'm afraid I can't help you there. You either get it, or you don't.
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#63 Malawry

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Posted 11 January 2003 - 09:26 AM

I visited several kitchens and trailed for a night before deciding on an externship site. Only one place asked me to sign a waiver before trailing. I thought it was interesting that nobody else asked me for anything, and I visited both big hotel city restaurants and small neighborhood suburban places. Granted, this was only for a one-night visit and not for a formal stage. It didn't strike me as odd until I visited the place that requested the waiver, which basically stated that I understood I was not covered under workers compensation type laws and that I would not hold the restaurant liable if I was injured.

#64 Rail Paul

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Posted 11 January 2003 - 11:12 AM

I visited several kitchens and trailed for a night before deciding on an externship site. Only one place asked me to sign a waiver before trailing. I thought it was interesting that nobody else asked me for anything, and I visited both big hotel city restaurants and small neighborhood suburban places. Granted, this was only for a one-night visit and not for a formal stage. It didn't strike me as odd until I visited the place that requested the waiver, which basically stated that I understood I was not covered under workers compensation type laws and that I would not hold the restaurant liable if I was injured.

Thanks, Malawry

If you're comfortable discussing specifics, was the internship arranged by your school, or did the various establishments have prior relationships with your school?

I know the Shop-Rite market in town has agreements with the various high schools which supply co-op education students. These agreements cover pay, working conditions, access to equipment, notification in the event of injury, insurance coverages maintained by both the school and market, etc. These arrangements are transparent to the students.

The Culinary Institute of America has an extensive externship program. Would any CIA grads be able to comment on coverages, arrangements, etc?

(With this post, we've delineated a free-lance, "Hi Can I intern here for a few days" approach from a formalized element of professional education)
Apparently it's easier still to dictate the conversation and in effect, kill the conversation.

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#65 thebaker

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Posted 12 January 2003 - 04:24 AM

I visited several kitchens and trailed for a night before deciding on an externship site. Only one place asked me to sign a waiver before trailing. I thought it was interesting that nobody else asked me for anything, and I visited both big hotel city restaurants and small neighborhood suburban places. Granted, this was only for a one-night visit and not for a formal stage. It didn't strike me as odd until I visited the place that requested the waiver, which basically stated that I understood I was not covered under workers compensation type laws and that I would not hold the restaurant liable if I was injured.

When I did my externship when i attended NY Restaurant school they told us we are covered under there insurance not the restaurants...
I bake there for I am....

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#66 Louisa Chu

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Posted 12 January 2003 - 04:57 AM

Oh Americans. :wink:

At Cordon Bleu Paris if you complete either Superior Cuisine or Superior Pastry you can do one three month stage immediately after. Or if you do both you can do two three month stages. Halfway through Superior you can take an optional stagiere orientation course and then it's off to the races as the first one to request a specific stage gets the chef who makes the calls to make your call. I believe this session every three star and major patisserie has at least one CB stagiere. But you can request any stage and the chef will make the call. It's not a guarantee they will take you but almost.

And you pretty much sign your life away but we've already done that for school. They're more concerned that your immigration status is secured with a Carte de Sejour and to obtain it you must have your own medical insurance.

I hope to do my cuisine stage first and then pastry.

Steve, I can't remember if I'd told you but I have just recently visited all the pastry grandes maisons and tasted every signature and seasonal item. My soul wavers between Pierre Herme and Peltier. I remember you telling me that Chef Conticini is an especially generous man to work for so that weighs the scales. But I've recently been corresponding with Dorie Greenspan and my heart just races when we discuss Herme.

I have not yet tried the grande maison restaurants and their plated desserts. This is a whole other area that I'm just starting to work with this session in Intermediate. I cannot wait to work with the element of temperature. But again I don't really know much yet about this area at that level.

I would appreciate thoughts from you all.

Thanks.

Edited by loufood, 12 January 2003 - 05:04 AM.


#67 Malawry

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Posted 12 January 2003 - 07:58 AM

Externships at L'academie are arranged through a cooperative effort between the student and Barbara, the director of admissions (who runs the externship program). Most students handle almost everything themselves after consulting with Barbara. (If you don't, she'll eventually do it for you, but it's far better to take control of the situation...who wants to be assigned to their next job?)

All externships are paid, and most DC area restaurants accept externs. Citronelle is the only place I know of that has a policy of not accepting externs. Most of the chefs in town have a history with L'academie, and understand what an externship entails. As far as I know, externs are to be treated for financial purposes as a full-time employee of the kitchen, meaning the kitchen provides pay, insurance, pays payroll taxes, and so on. I think the agreement chefs sign for L'academie when accepting externs delineates these responsibilities. I am pretty sure L'academie does not accept legal or financial responsibility for a student on an externship.

#68 KarenS

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Posted 12 January 2003 - 11:58 AM

Stev klc, I realize that my remark came out a little rude. Your cake is pretty. I have just wondered why you used that picture. I don't care for fondant because it tastes like a sugar cube (and most people peel it off to eat the cake).

#69 elyse

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Posted 12 January 2003 - 01:16 PM

Thanks for the recipes! I seem to remember more, but it's been a while so it may be me. I'll try societeculinaire.

Thanks again, Elyse

#70 Jason Perlow

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Posted 12 January 2003 - 02:28 PM

The $50,000 Pastry Challenge aired yesterday, January 11th -- wow, what a cool show. Some AMAZING showpeices here, especially the "Indiana Jones" one with the jungle/tiki motif made out of spun sugar. I really wish they showed more of Team Klc though, for selfish reasons. :biggrin:

The TVFN site doesnt seem to have a time of when it will be on next, as I went through their weekly schedule listings, but Food Network often re-runs these things.

Steve: care to comment about your showpeices? Pics? One of those you featured was Colleen's "marilyn" cake right?
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#71 Suzanne F

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Posted 12 January 2003 - 03:38 PM

Wow, I'll bet their stuff was fabulous. Too bad I can't see the show.

On a related note: why do we thrill at pastry and sugar work set pieces yet turn up our noses at those aspic-imprisoned formerly-savory displays (even before they've been on display for 3 days :hmmm: )? The kind of stuff that ACF competitions require. Brad, ngatti, chopjw, 1x -- any ideas? SteveK, Cheffette, Wingding -- I'd be interested in your answers, too. (and of course any one else :biggrin: ).

#72 chefette

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Posted 12 January 2003 - 06:33 PM

Quote Suzanne F: "why do we thrill at pastry and sugar work set pieces yet turn up our noses at those aspic-imprisoned formerly-savory displays "

I think it is because the pastry set pieces are fantasy impossible art things made of food and we react with wowness. The aspic things are just sort of gussied up food things looking like we are somehow supposed to eat them and we are scared. Also maybe because it is very far out of our culture at this point.

#73 SteveW

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Posted 13 January 2003 - 08:50 AM

The next airdate for the $50, 000 Pastry Challenge show airing on TVFN, is Saturday Feb 1, at 5pm.

---------------
Steve

#74 Steve Klc

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Posted 13 January 2003 - 09:05 AM

Jason--yes, now that chefette has posted everyone can see her "Marilyn" cake avatar, which was quite a tasty, inventive and delicate cake. At the time, the "work" judges--the German, Dutch and Swiss judges whose job it was was to walk around all the kitchens and watch us work, our habits, assess our "new" techniques, our cleanliness, our organization--were...shall we say...under-appreciative of just how special that cake, in judging parlance an "entremet," actually was. Ironically, it was one of the most photographed items by the judges themselves!

Colleen conceived of and then implemented the Marilyn look in innovative fashion, which involved silk-screening, a shower liner from Home Depot, developing a caramel gelatin of just the right taste, color and texture--and then applying it at just the right temperature onto a cake which is also at just the right temperature. Also, the jagged caramel tuiles--incredibly tasty and paper-thin--stuck onto the side of the cake were also made by an innovative technique--powdered caramel sifted onto a silpat and baked, allowing it to fuse, then harden as it is removed from the oven and cooled. (That's the principle behind many of the flavorful powdered dried tuiles and lollipop things Ferran and Alberto pioneered at El Bulli.) Caramel as paper thin as a sheet of phyllo which packed flavor but would crack at the merest hit of a fork.

One of the "taste" judges said to us he downgraded our cake--taste-wise--because he had just come back from France and had too many caramel cakes and desserts there. That's what you are up against sometimes in events like this--differing standards between the US and Europe--and not making a big enough impact due to different sensibilities or peculiarities of judges. (That's OK, though, the previous year, while this judge was still a competitor, our team outscored his head to head.)

As unappreciated at the time as that Marilyn cake was, it has been splashed on just about every promo and ad and brochure and magazine article since. I wouldn't be surprised if those same dismissive work judges still don't "get it." The Italians, who cover and appreciate stuff like this very seriously, liked it so much they've run it several times in their professional pastry journals.

As far as this TV show, I haven't seen it yet. I was getting ready for a media luncheon the next day at one of my restaurants, Cafe Atlantico, and forgot to tape it. But if that year's production crew had the same level of commitment as the year before--which was also taped and produced for the Food Network--after commercials there isn't much time in an hour to really focus on more than the top 2 or 3 teams, and also try to tell some kind of story, some kind of narrative. It's a tough job. And the organizers of the event have their own idea who is going to place in the top positions. The MOF's were a given, Drew Shott's team was a given and I can't even remember now who came in third. As it should be, I hope the show focused on those teams. (And not like the show from the previous year--where the 3rd place team must not have been predicted to do so well by the organizers in advance--and as a result the TV coverage seemed skewed more toward the team which actually came in 4th--En Ming Hsu, Michel Willaume, and Thomas Hass--and not the 3rd place team. That year Colleen and I finished right behind En Ming, coming in 5th with our teammate Richard Ruskell of The Phoenician. We were barely mentioned then, we're probably barely mentioned now--but that's as it should be. We didn't do well enough.)

Suzanne--on this I can only speak for myself, but I like all that garde manger stuff on the savory side, all those refined and elegant banquet or buffet presentations. When I have occasion to see some of them--say at a more formal hotel brunch--and it is done well--I still enjoy eating them and I'm appreciative of the labor and technique involved. Sure large scale presentations are a dying/dead art--but many of the same techniques are still used in high end French restaurants, especially involving gelee--it's just that the little set pieces and those cold composed salads are prepared for individual diners and presented on individual plates. I see remnants of this from Boulud to Michel Richard to Antoine Westermann and even in what some of the more innovative Spanish chefs are doing.

That's not analogous to pastry showpieces, however--but more analogous to the plated desserts, petits fours, entremets, etc. that we're asked to do. In the French competitions--or French influenced ones like this $50,000 Pastry Challenge--we're asked to do modern viable stuff and it is taste which counts the most. The showpieces are extra--to show skill in that area as well. Perhaps part of the decline, and why that savory-aspic work has fallen out of favor is that it was not tasted? That was also, historically why so many of the best chefs and pastry chefs didn't take the ACF-style "Culinary Olympics" very seriously--the French didn't go and neither taste nor originality was much of a factor. I still think ice carving is viable and artistic--and it is mostly chefs not pastry chefs who do ice. I also think you'll see the ACF dinosaurs modernizing a bit--and adapting their competitions to fit the times better. More live cooking, more market basket stuff, more taste as a factor.

Still the ACF, though, so don't get your hopes up.
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#75 ChocoChris

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Posted 13 January 2003 - 09:32 AM

Steve and Colleen,
Have you documented your work from this event? If so, is it posted where we can admire it appropriately??

ChocoChris

#76 Steve Klc

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Posted 13 January 2003 - 09:58 AM

No, when you compete it's tough to get a handle on what everyone else is doing and it's even tougher to take good pictures. You sort of rely on others to document. You'd have to go to the event website, rummage through the archives, etc. After you finish this--you've been up essentially for like 34 hours straight--you're not worrying about documenting your stuff. You have to clean your kitchen and you just hope you didn't embarrass yourself in front of your friends and colleagues. You go to sleep.

One year my parents attended but they couldn't get close enough to get good pictures, one year all the showpieces were vandalized by kids and by humidity before the official photographer could get studio-quality shots, last year Michael Schneider, editor of Pastry Art & Design and one of the organizers, was actually moving one of our pieces to have it photographed better and it inadvertantly broke. Stuff like that happens. I've talked about it before on eGullet I think--especially about trying to do the chocolate showpieces in the heat outside under a tent, in 1999 I did the chocolate work, in 2000 Colleen did the chocolate piece, in 2001 I did. After that I decided I had supported the event enough and had done my little part to raise awareness. I got out of it what I was going to, as well.

We tend to move on pretty quickly to the next event, the next project, though. If there is any admiration, it is shared and it comes hopefully from watching live or from the TV special--conveying what it is like over the 10-12 hours--watching the work unfold and the competitors deal with the adversities of temperature and equipment not working, baking at altitude, etc. It's really quite exciting. But thanks for your nice words.
Steve Klc

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#77 snowangel

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Posted 13 January 2003 - 12:19 PM

Why do some recipes for baked goods call for adding dry and liquid ingredients alternately (like 1/3 the dry, then 1/3 the liquid, repeat, repeat) and some call for all liquids at once and then all drys?
Susan Fahning aka "snowangel"

#78 Elizabeth_11

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Posted 13 January 2003 - 01:49 PM

I may very possibly be incorrect, but to my knowledge it is to avoid overmixing and thus creating more gluten. I believe that by slowly incorporating the wet and dry ingredients together instead of all the flour at once, you avoid beating it too much at the end? So by gently mixing wet,dry, wet, dry, the ingredients are still thoroughly combined but not at as much risk as being beaten to death by overwhelming it with dry ingredients?? That's my take on it at least, but please correct me if I'm wrong someone!

Edited to note that the only recipes I have seen for adding dry at the end are almost always quick breads like pancakes or muffins; these usually don't call for super-thorough mixing and lumps are permissable. This is usually when you just want to fold it in to produce a super tender crumb--I THINK.

Edited by Elizabeth_11, 13 January 2003 - 01:52 PM.

-Elizabeth

Mmmmmmm chocolate.


#79 Dave the Cook

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Posted 13 January 2003 - 01:53 PM

I may very possibly be incorrect, but to my knowledge it is to avoid overmixing and thus creating more gluten.  I believe that by slowly incorporating the wet and dry ingredients together instead of all the flour at once, you avoid beating it too much at the end?  So by gently mixing wet,dry, wet, dry, the ingredients are still thoroughly combined but not at as much risk as being beaten to death by overwhelming it with dry ingredients?? That's my take on it at least, but please correct me if I'm wrong someone!

Makes sense to me, especially in cakes and pastries.

Not to put too fine a point on it, it also probably ensures thorough mixing at the same time -- no pools of liquid or clumps of flour to suprise you when you think you're done.

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#80 bripastryguy

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Posted 13 January 2003 - 02:14 PM

I always learned that this method was used to produce a smooth batter without lumps
"Chocolate has no calories....
Chocolate is food for the soul, The soul has no weight, therefore no calories" so said a customer, a lovely southern woman, after consuming chocolate indulgence
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#81 La Niña

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Posted 13 January 2003 - 08:40 PM

Let's separate another category of unpaid labor: according to the law (US), if one is receiving academic credit from an accredited institution, one needn't be paid.

And one can sign any waiver one wishes, but one cannot sign away one's constitutional rights in any situation in the US. Also, we have a minimum wage law, the violation of which can carry severe penalties.

Edited by La Niña, 13 January 2003 - 08:41 PM.


#82 Really Nice!

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Posted 13 January 2003 - 08:52 PM

This may be more than you want to know, so I apologize if it's overkill.

First, it depends on the type of dough/batter you're talking about. For example, there are three yeast bread doughs; lean, rich, and quick breads. There are high-fat cake batters and low-fat cake batters, and there are also quick breads. Each has a different mixing requirement which leads us to... Second, you need to understand the purpose of mixing a dough based on the type of dough or batter you’re making.

With yeast doughs, the purpose of mixing is to:
1. combine the ingredients into a uniform dough
2. disperse the yeast evenly in the dough
3. develop the gluten

Now that you know the purpose of mixing a yeast dough, know that there are three different kinds of mixing to achieve that purpose: straight dough method, modified straight dough method, and sponge method.

Straight dough method. Dump everything in the container and mix. Used for simple breads with little or no fat or sugar such as a loaf of French or Italian bread. You need a strong gluten so the time used to develop it also combines the ingredients as well as disperse the yeast.

Modified straight dough method. This is used for rich yeast doughs. Combine everything but eggs and flour in the dough. Then mix in eggs one at a time. If you add them too quickly, the result looks like eggs that have curdled. The other ingredients (fat, sugar, milk solids, etc.) didn't have time to incorporate with the eggs; hence, a big gooey and lumpy mess in the mixing bowl. After the eggs are blended you should have a smooth, homogenous mixture. Now you're ready to add the flour. The flour will absorb what looks to be excess moisture, but when you're done, you'll have a rich dough ready for baking. Think sweet rolls and brioche.

Sponge method. This is common with pizza dough. Mix the water, yeast and some flour together and let it 'proof' for 10 minutes. Then add it to the remaining ingredients to thoroughly mix the ingredients. The main difference between the straight dough method and sponge method is to give the yeast a head start in the fermentation process. Other products include sour dough bread, but don’t confuse this sponge method with the sour dough sponge. That’s in a different thread.

Cake batters are basically broken down into high-fat cakes and low-fat cakes.

With cake batters, the purpose of mixing is to:
1. combine the ingredients into a uniform batter
2. disperse the leavening agent (baking powder/soda) evenly in the batter
3. NOT develop gluten

For high-fat cakes there are two methods: creaming method and two-stage method. For low-fat cakes the methods are: sponge method, angel food method, and chiffon method.

First, high-fat cakes:

Creaming method. Cream the butter or fat first (usually butter), then start to add other ingredients a little at a time. A little bit of dry, a little bit of wet, a little bit of dry... The reason for this is you want to slowly build a homogenous mixture; you don't want one (such as dry) to out-volume (if I can use that as a transitive verb) the wet. If it does the batter won't properly develop as you'll spend time trying to get the two together rather than mixing. The result is an over beaten dough which will result in a uneven shape and a course, tough texture. Think of your basic yellow or chocolate cake for this method.

Two-stage method. This is for cakes that have more sugar than flour. Also the liquid portion is higher than normal. Mix about 3/4 dry ingredients along with the fat (usually shortening). Then add remaining 1/4 dry ingredients followed by all the wet ingredients. This makes for a rather viscous batter. You do it this way because the flour can't absorb all that liquid at once, and to develop the proper structure; meaning that you'll get a smooth batter and the sugar will be dissolved so the finished product won't have a grainy texture. Think pound cake.

Secondly, low-fat cakes:
Sponge method. This is for sponge cakes which contain whipped egg whites and well-beaten egg yolks. You cannot have a single drop of egg yolk in the bowl in which you are whipping egg whites. It just won't work. You need to mix them separately. Usually the recipe says to mix your egg yolks and sugar together, then add your flour, and finally, fold in your egg whites. Hmm, think jelly roll, if that helps.

Angel food method. Same as the sponge method, only there are no fats (egg yolks). Think angel food cake.

Chiffon method. This is a combination of sponge and angel food methods. You mix the flour, sugar and oil together and then fold in the separately whipped egg whites. Think chiffon cake.

And finally <phew!> you have quick breads which offer two methods of mixing: biscuit method and creaming method.

With quick bread doughs, the purpose of mixing is to:
1. combine the ingredients into a semi-uniform batter; expect lumps
2. disperse the leavening agent (baking powder/soda) evenly in the batter
3. develop a little bit of gluten

Biscuit method. This is the same method used to make pie crusts. Sift dry ingredients together. Cut in shortening. Add wet ingredients. Knead the dough for about 30 seconds. Also great for biscuits in Southern cooking.

Muffin method. Combine dry ingredients together. Combine wet ingredients together. Combine dry and wet ingredients together. Do not overmix. Expect to have lumps. This is the same method used for making pancakes.

In conclusion, :biggrin: I think whether or not you want to develop the gluten has the greatest importance in how or when you add the ingredients during mixing. You can test this by making a muffin using the straight dough method for breads. It will turn out tough, chewy, little height gain, and probably very heavy. Make a loaf of French bread using the muffin method for quick breads and you’ll end up with pockets of flour, pockets of wet gummy stuff, no height added, and very, very tiny air pockets.

Each type of dough/batter requires its own type of handling.

Edited by Really Nice!, 13 January 2003 - 09:00 PM.

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#83 awbrig

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Posted 13 January 2003 - 08:53 PM

Sponge method. This is for sponge cakes which contain whipped egg whites and well-beaten egg yolks. You cannot have a single drop of egg yolk in the bowl in which you are whipping egg whites. It just won't work. You need to mix them separately. Usually the recipe says to mix your egg yolks and sugar together, then add your flour, and finally, fold in your egg whites. Hmm, think jelly roll, if that helps.


I prefer this method.

#84 Dave the Cook

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Posted 13 January 2003 - 09:29 PM

What a great summary. Thanks, Really Nice!

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#85 maggiethecat

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Posted 13 January 2003 - 09:59 PM

Really Nice:

Your post was more than really nice. It was a handbook for baking. Wow. Excellent and thank you. I'm gonna print it out and save it.

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#86 awbrig

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Posted 13 January 2003 - 10:11 PM

Adding liquid and dry ingredients,


what if you add dry ice?

Posted Image

#87 snowangel

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Posted 13 January 2003 - 11:14 PM

Really Nice:

Your post was more than really nice.  It was a handbook for baking.  Wow. Excellent and thank you. I'm gonna print it out and save it.

Ditto. Diana (age 12) actually asked the question; your reply has been printed and added to her cooking notebook. She and I really appreciate the detailed, yet simple, explainations.
Susan Fahning aka "snowangel"

#88 Elizabeth_11

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Posted 14 January 2003 - 09:40 AM

Thank you Really Nice, that was really nice! :raz: Ya learn something new everyday! :wink:

Edited by Elizabeth_11, 14 January 2003 - 09:41 AM.

-Elizabeth

Mmmmmmm chocolate.


#89 stellabella

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Posted 14 January 2003 - 03:00 PM

I love this cookie so much I want to share it with all yins out there in baking land. I had it at my neighbor Hilda's house last fall when she hosted the 2nd Annual Rutledge Oyster Roast. A friend had made it for her--I hastily scribbled the recipe in my drunken hand and proceeded to turn out about four batches during the holidays--I figured out how to get this very simple [though, of course, surreptitiously tricky, as recipes can be] cookie right.

Hilda's Friend's Almond Shortbread

3/4 c melted butter
1 1/2 c sugar
1 1/2 c flour
2 beaten eggs
pinch salt
1 t almond extract

Mix butter and sugar til creamy; add aggs and mix well; add flour, salt and extract and mix well. Grease your standard cast-iron skillet and line completely with foil. Pour the stiff batter in and spread it to the sides. Sprinkle the top generously with slivered almonds and more sugar. Bake @ 350 30 mins. Cool completely before removing.

Notes: this is so easy it's addictive. I use the Kitchenaid and pretty much just dump in the ingredients in the proper order and let the machine do all the work. I recommend taking the pan out after 25 min. and checking that your oven isn't cooking too fast. The top of the cookies will brown only VERY slightly. You might think they aren't done and want to stick them back in for 5-10 minutes--DON'T. Becasue I was making them during a cold spell, I took the skillet out on the porch and let them cool overnight. Once completely cool they set and firm up. Cut them into thin slivers and serve them with coffee or tea or alongside another dessert like chocolate mousse.

These are the best cookies I've discovered in a LONG time. They are like a rich, soft chewy biscotti. Hope you like them, too.

Edited by stellabella, 14 January 2003 - 03:01 PM.


#90 maggiethecat

maggiethecat
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Posted 14 January 2003 - 03:06 PM

This sounds relly good. Will give it a try at earliest possibilty.

A question as to shape. Biscotti-like? Or would cutting them in petticoat-tail style wedges work?

Margaret McArthur

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