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Sugar Cane syrup


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125 replies to this topic

#31 hensonville

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Posted 07 January 2003 - 12:38 PM

Hi. Elizabeth...I just would like to remind you that in the US we have rather severe laws about having people work for no pay. In New York, the penalties are very steep. Just a thought.

(Edit note--these posts were pulled from another thread and given its own. By me. Hensonville did not just start this, he followed up on Elizabeth considering a stage.)

Edited by Steve Klc, 07 January 2003 - 08:27 PM.


#32 bripastryguy

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Posted 07 January 2003 - 12:48 PM

hensonville,

she is refering to a stagiere position, it is in trade for knowledge and practical experience. Not a non-pay position, the pay comes in the way of experience and may lead to networking and eventually a good paying position.

My wife never understands this....

Why would I go take a job or spend my off time working for someone and not get paid! Then I showed her continuing education or specialty course fees and she could not believe how much they cost, so in the long run- giving up some free time to learn from a qualified professional can save and maybe even make you money.]

I'm not saying to do this without a paying job as an income source, but an addition
"Chocolate has no calories....
Chocolate is food for the soul, The soul has no weight, therefore no calories" so said a customer, a lovely southern woman, after consuming chocolate indulgence
SWEET KARMA DESSERTS
www.sweetkarmadesserts.com
550 East Meadow Ave. East meadow, NY 11554
516-794-4478
Brian Fishman

#33 bripastryguy

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Posted 07 January 2003 - 12:51 PM

How bout all the pastry professionals set up a network to schedule stages in kitchens throughout the US (its very common in Europe) and I know we have some talent and they all see willing to share their expertise and knowledge
"Chocolate has no calories....
Chocolate is food for the soul, The soul has no weight, therefore no calories" so said a customer, a lovely southern woman, after consuming chocolate indulgence
SWEET KARMA DESSERTS
www.sweetkarmadesserts.com
550 East Meadow Ave. East meadow, NY 11554
516-794-4478
Brian Fishman

#34 La Niña

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Posted 07 January 2003 - 01:58 PM

Call it what you want - it may very well still be illegal. If the work product of the person is being used in the restaurant for profit, I believe by law that person must be paid. I'm not sure you can call that person an intern by law. Worth knowing the risks involved before making a decision - although the risk is primarily the restaurant's, not the worker's. If the person is working illegally in terms of the INS - well, that's another can of worms entirely.

#35 bripastryguy

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Posted 07 January 2003 - 02:08 PM

Stagiere is something that is very common in the culinary field for professionals to venture out to other chef's kitchens to give their all in pursuit of knowledge, it is not slavery more like volunteer work. Almost like a barter system. "If I come to your kitchen and help out what will you teach me or what can I learn from you kind of thing."
"Chocolate has no calories....
Chocolate is food for the soul, The soul has no weight, therefore no calories" so said a customer, a lovely southern woman, after consuming chocolate indulgence
SWEET KARMA DESSERTS
www.sweetkarmadesserts.com
550 East Meadow Ave. East meadow, NY 11554
516-794-4478
Brian Fishman

#36 La Niña

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Posted 07 January 2003 - 02:12 PM

I understand that it's common practice. That doesn't necessarily make it legal. There are laws about volunteering/interning, and when work must be paid for. Again, worthwhile to know the law and the risks before jumping in.

edit: oops, I meant to post this in that new Stagiere thread - maybe somebody can move the appropriate posts from here to there?

Edited by La Niña, 07 January 2003 - 02:23 PM.


#37 Suzanne F

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Posted 07 January 2003 - 02:38 PM

Just thought of one more consideration, which is actually very important to me: when I'm wavering between ordering dessert or not, because something sounds good, I will ask if it is house-made. You'd be suprised how many good places bring in the cakes and ice creams/sorbets. And if you ask directly, they'll tell you the truth. Hell, they might as well -- the "frutta di bosca" tart and Bindi filled-lemon look the same everywhere. Needless to say, if they don't make it there, I don't order it.

#38 hensonville

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Posted 07 January 2003 - 05:09 PM

Please also consider insurance issues: workmen's compensation. personal injury, liability, etc. It's serious stuff.

#39 bripastryguy

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Posted 08 January 2003 - 11:56 AM

Steve,

for a recipe containing:

Cider Sabayon

1 c sugar
15 egg yolks
1 bottle wood pecker cider

I cook over a wb and then whip out cold. I don' want to use cream, how much sheet gelatin would you add?
"Chocolate has no calories....
Chocolate is food for the soul, The soul has no weight, therefore no calories" so said a customer, a lovely southern woman, after consuming chocolate indulgence
SWEET KARMA DESSERTS
www.sweetkarmadesserts.com
550 East Meadow Ave. East meadow, NY 11554
516-794-4478
Brian Fishman

#40 Lesley C

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Posted 08 January 2003 - 08:16 PM

I'm with Suzanne here, if the dessert is not made in-house I probably won't have dessert. If I'm reviewing a restaurant that buys its desserts, I see no reason to review that part of the meal, or I'll cover it just in passing.
When ordering, I tend to go for lemon desserts (I like acidic) and if the meal so far has been exceptional, I'll opt for a chocolate dessert. If the dinner has been pretty simple, I'll opt for a creme caramel or something plain (though a good creme caramel is hard to find).
I'll rarely eat out and not order dessert. As a former pastry chef, I feel I have to support a course that seems to have fallen out of favour. Sometimes I'm surprised to find a good dessert at mediocre places (especially sushi restaurants) and weak desserts in really sharp restaurants. I love a good dessert at the end of a meal -- even creme brulee, but NOT tiramisu (ek! too rich).

#41 Lesley C

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Posted 08 January 2003 - 08:22 PM

Sabayon with cornstarch! Yuck!
I make sabayon by first poaching the mix over a bain-marie to 85 degrees C then whipping it in the Kitchen Aid at high speed until it doubles in volume -- like a pate a bombe (which is is).
Bripastryguy, why would you want to put gelatin in a sabayon? How are you serving it?

#42 bripastryguy

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Posted 09 January 2003 - 08:01 AM

Les,

I do the same prep as you (eg.) Pate a Bombe, they palce I am doing it for, I am not there all time and I dont have "qualified" people working the station and I cant vouch for the integrity or consistency of the sauce. I am looking for a way to preserve the texture. I will not use a starch, so I assumed gelatin would be a viable option..........
"Chocolate has no calories....
Chocolate is food for the soul, The soul has no weight, therefore no calories" so said a customer, a lovely southern woman, after consuming chocolate indulgence
SWEET KARMA DESSERTS
www.sweetkarmadesserts.com
550 East Meadow Ave. East meadow, NY 11554
516-794-4478
Brian Fishman

#43 Rail Paul

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Posted 09 January 2003 - 06:48 PM

Please also consider insurance issues: workmen's compensation. personal injury, liability, etc. It's serious stuff.

La Nina and hensonville raise important issues. Being in a place of business absent legal foundation does have risks and costs.

As a food handler in many states, certification, TB testing, etc is required. If your (volunteer) action injures a patron, who gets sued? You are handling (raw) eggs, and other foods. In Europe, litigation over this issue isn't frequent, unlike the US.

If you're injured and disabled with an on the job injury, who pays for your rehab? (I'll wager the agreement excludes the proprietor, though)
Apparently it's easier still to dictate the conversation and in effect, kill the conversation.

rancho gordo

#44 laura

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Posted 09 January 2003 - 07:58 PM

Leslie I quite agree with you about the cornstarch, which is why I posed the question. I have made
zabaglione, sabayon before, and used moscoto d asti, not champagne . When I have made it in the
past I have placed my kitchenaid mixer bowl over simmering water, beating with wire whisk to increase
volume. This time, I used a double boiler and didn't achieve the same kind of volume of mixture
because the surface was smaller. Then I transfered the mix of brut rose champagne, egg yolks, sugar,
roughly the proportions mentioned by steve to my mixer and mixing further increased the volume and
cooled off the contents. I then incorporated the whipped cream, folding it in. I served it cold with
macerated blood oranges and served it with the same champagne. The intensity of flavor of the
the champagne in the sabayon and drinking the champagne, unorthodox as it may seem, worked very well. Because, it was never incorporated fully, the mixture separated somewhat, not evident when it
was served , Because, it tasted so good,I didn't want to throw it out , so the next day, I put it back
on the stove and cooked it until it thickened into a creme anglaise, Since it was breakfast time, and I wanted to use up some tipo romano style ricotta, I made
ricotta ,lemon pancakes and put the creme over it , it was great.

#45 Elizabeth_11

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Posted 09 January 2003 - 08:17 PM

Those are all excellent points. I actually have an interview on Tuesday to sit down with the pastry chef (not sure if I'll do any work in the kitchen), so I need to be prepared for the possibity that she could offer me work with no pay--at least temporarily. I really don't know what I'd say! I'd probably buckle (although I NEEEEEEED money right now) since it's probably the most amazing pastry establishment in all of Chicago. Oh what to do, what to do!
-Elizabeth

Mmmmmmm chocolate.


#46 wgallois

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Posted 10 January 2003 - 12:55 AM

Thanks a lot for all the really interesting replies. In reply to Steve Klc's question, I can't say that I have ever ordered puddings with any knowledge of a particular pastry chef in a restaurant. I think that this is a function of the British media's only having an interest in celebrity (head) chefs, at the expense of all others who work in restaurants. Restaurant reviews here rarely mention anyone other than the head chef, and I think diners (myself included) rarely have any sense of the food on their plates coming from a team rather than an individual.

#47 bripastryguy

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Posted 10 January 2003 - 07:37 AM

Elizabeth,

What place is it? Who is the Pastry Chef?

Remember the "free" time can lead to a better pay position, but make sure you have an avenue to pay your bills and to live (very important) That is why I turned down the hotel job.

Free staging should not be in place of a paying job, it should be used to gain knowledge on any off time you have or if you are financially set then you can go work for free full time.

I use staging instead of spending the exuberant costs of pastry classes, I can't believe how much they charge! I feel if I can spend a saturday (4-5 hours) with someone like Michel Willaume-Mondrian Pastry, World Cup, or Francois Payard or Mornad Dare
and get some real practical knowledge and pick their brain its worth it.

I feel that the non-professionals are looking at this as a kind of "slave Labor" and not a chance to gain invaluable experience.

I'm not down playing the legal implications but they are far and inbetween and this is a voluntary situation
"Chocolate has no calories....
Chocolate is food for the soul, The soul has no weight, therefore no calories" so said a customer, a lovely southern woman, after consuming chocolate indulgence
SWEET KARMA DESSERTS
www.sweetkarmadesserts.com
550 East Meadow Ave. East meadow, NY 11554
516-794-4478
Brian Fishman

#48 bripastryguy

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Posted 10 January 2003 - 07:39 AM

emmmmm,

wanna share the recipe for those Lemon Ricotta Pancakes?
"Chocolate has no calories....
Chocolate is food for the soul, The soul has no weight, therefore no calories" so said a customer, a lovely southern woman, after consuming chocolate indulgence
SWEET KARMA DESSERTS
www.sweetkarmadesserts.com
550 East Meadow Ave. East meadow, NY 11554
516-794-4478
Brian Fishman

#49 Elizabeth_11

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Posted 10 January 2003 - 09:13 AM

Hey Bri, I am interviewing with a place called Bittersweet run by pastry chef Judy Contino. http://chicago.citys...4763/editorial/ I actually learned of her while reading "The making of a Pastry Chef". She is relatively well-known here in Chicago and Bittersweet is just the most delightful little shop/cafe filled with european style pastries. It gets RAVE reviews. I'm thinking that she would most likely offer me a temporary no-pay position to get a better idea of what my skill level is, then maybe base payment on that? Either way, I'm very excited about it! I've been trying for months to get my foot in the door here, so it would probably be best for me to accept anything she has to offer. Do you agree?
-Elizabeth

Mmmmmmm chocolate.


#50 Andy Lynes

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Posted 10 January 2003 - 09:19 AM

My personal experience of this was that I was refused a place at the Ritz Carlton Atlanta (whilst Joel Antunnes was head chef) on the basis that they were not covered by their insurance for someone working in their kitchen whilst not on the payroll, but was accepted by Tom Coohill at La Ciboulette and insurance was never mentioned. This was just for a day in both instances as it was over a weekend of a several week long business trip, so slightly unusual circumstances.

#51 Steve Klc

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Posted 10 January 2003 - 10:16 AM

No, Andy, I suspect a general trend if this was pursued more closely: hotels, especially large corporations, have policies in place which forbid unpaid interns and stages for precisely the reasons offered on this thread. F&B Directors answer to GM's and both are over the head of the chef and both seem subject to more corporate concerns--this is also why there are formal "paid" externships as part of culinary schools; freestanding restaurants and smaller establishments, especially elite restaurants and overworked bakeries and patisseries, especially with chef-owners, are more likely to accept students, unpaid interns and stages. Especially if a known chef were to call on your behalf--or if you were a experienced professional already. There is a presumption that you know your way around but there is undeniably this longstanding, informal--but quite possibly risky--process where the best chefs accept other chefs into their kitchens to work and learn and share and then go back to their own kitchens inspired. The elite chefs interned, staged, learned at the feet of others, and so the process of giving back can renew itself.

Some you have to pay for the privilege; some you just show up and work.

There's a whole lot of sharing and intermingling without pay at all of these festivals, events, celebrity and charity dinners going on nationwide as well--guest chefs and their teams just show up the day or two before and cook in strange kitchens for no compensation, working and plating side by side to pull a dinner off. I've done this alot, gone on the road, hosted chefs and cooks myself and have never signed a release and never actually thought about it.

I think an important issue has been raised. I also think there may be a difference between young, unskilled labor being taken advantage of and more-established professionals choosing this route--but that doesn't mitigate the insurance/personal injury aspect.
Steve Klc

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Oyamel : Zaytinya : Cafe Atlantico : Jaleo

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#52 bripastryguy

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Posted 10 January 2003 - 10:41 AM

Thank you Steve for cleaning up this heated discussion
"Chocolate has no calories....
Chocolate is food for the soul, The soul has no weight, therefore no calories" so said a customer, a lovely southern woman, after consuming chocolate indulgence
SWEET KARMA DESSERTS
www.sweetkarmadesserts.com
550 East Meadow Ave. East meadow, NY 11554
516-794-4478
Brian Fishman

#53 Steve Klc

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Posted 10 January 2003 - 10:59 AM

You know what they say, where's there's heat, there's fire or smoke or something like that. Well, anyway, I would like to see some documentation, some sourcing, some references, etc. posted to this issue--I suspect this might already have been discussed well on Cheftalk--at least from the foodservice perspective. Undeniably cost, risk, insurance liability, injury deserve closer scrutiny by all of us.
Steve Klc

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Oyamel : Zaytinya : Cafe Atlantico : Jaleo

chef@pastryarts.com

#54 Bux

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Posted 10 January 2003 - 12:04 PM

It's probably illegal, immoral and unethical for someone to work for nothing, that but if that someone can afford to to do it and can find the right person to work under and the right place that will let them do it, that someone will have a great opportunity to jump start a career. Abuse comes in all flavors and the person who may suffer the most from this system is the person who hasn't got the contacts or can't afford to get this opportunity to be "abused."
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#55 tsquare

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Posted 10 January 2003 - 02:47 PM

It's probably illegal, immoral and unethical for someone to work for nothing

And so pro bono professional services are? (Medical, legal, etc.)
Being a dumb volunteer for numerous social and cultural organizations, I disagree. Less often, but on occassion, I have provided pro bono professional services (architecture related, you wags) for both benefit to the client and to my resume. Does this differ? The question of liability is the only downside - and making sure you aren't being taken advantage of - agreeing to only as much as you are comfortable giving away.

#56 laura

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Posted 10 January 2003 - 02:49 PM

emmmmm,

wanna share the recipe for those Lemon Ricotta Pancakes?

Sure. It's a variation of a recipe for lemon pancakes in Marion Cunningham's book The Breakfast Book.
3 eggs separated
1/4 c flour 2 tb sugar
3/4 c ricotta cheese 1/4 tsp salt
1/4 stick butter, melted 1 tbs lemon zest
Separate eggs and beat egg whites till stiff peaks. In another bowl, stir together the egg yolks, flour,
ricotta, butter, sugar, salt and lemon zest till well mixed.
Fold egg whites into yolk mixture, gently stir until there are no yellow or white streaks.
Then cook on griddle, over med heat.
{my only change is to add good quality ricotta instead of
cottage cheese}
The pancakes are very light and airy.

#57 Andy Lynes

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Posted 10 January 2003 - 04:15 PM

I'm in complete agreement with bripastryguy's take on working unpaid in kitchens, (although I realise the thread's focus is more on the specific legal situation in the US).

I get so much in terms of knowlegde, fun and experience out of a day in a kitchen that payment would spoil it in a way. Then things would actually be expected of you. As a "guest", you can get away with being incompetant and you don't get shouted at. You get given bits and bobs to eat. If you were there on a short terms contract, they'd have you cleaning out the fridge!

#58 Rail Paul

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Posted 10 January 2003 - 05:08 PM

It's probably illegal, immoral and unethical for someone to work for nothing

And so pro bono professional services are? (Medical, legal, etc.)
Being a dumb volunteer for numerous social and cultural organizations, I disagree. Less often, but on occassion, I have provided pro bono professional services (architecture related, you wags) for both benefit to the client and to my resume. Does this differ? The question of liability is the only downside - and making sure you aren't being taken advantage of - agreeing to only as much as you are comfortable giving away.


Our firm's errors and omissions coverage includes damages incurred in company sanctioned charitable and pro-bono work. I'd be surprised if your firm's coverage excludes that. Your broker can provide guidance.

There is a charitable exemption or liability cap in many states for charities and their volunteers. The Boston bishop considered hiding behind it to avoid responsibility for his pederast priests. But, we're not discussing that, we're discussing working without pay or benefits or coverage of law in a for-profit business.

I'd be very interesting in seeing the agreement, as I'd expect it waives all liability against the management for any damages the student may suffer

Edited by Rail Paul, 10 January 2003 - 05:10 PM.

Apparently it's easier still to dictate the conversation and in effect, kill the conversation.

rancho gordo

#59 tsquare

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Posted 10 January 2003 - 05:17 PM

But, we're not discussing that, we're discussing working without pay or benefits or coverage of law in a for-profit business.

okay, but the same holds true for unpaid positions in all these "professions." Doctors intern (I realize at some point they get paid, but part of it is during schooling), lawyers clerk (maybe always paid?), architects intern, typically during schooling, to get experience, very frequently without pay, especially in high profile offices. Not that I think it is right, but it exists. Some well known architects have been known to run their offices with free labor. Is there a difference here?

#60 Steve Klc

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Posted 10 January 2003 - 05:29 PM

No tsquare, your doctor/lawyer in training examples are paid--minimally--quite handsomely--or pay out themselves, in tuition, for the privilege. You're clearly aware of architectural practice so perhaps there is an analogy to be drawn to cooking. Though the not-for-profit charitable aspect in this vs. the for-profit distinction Rail Paul highlights seems a key distinguisher to me--but then I'm not a lawyer. We have enough lawyer foodies on this site, so anytime now, Steve, Ron, et al?
Steve Klc

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Oyamel : Zaytinya : Cafe Atlantico : Jaleo

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