202 replies to this topic

[alicia]

Alicia, are you walking or taking cabs?

Don't yet know. We're coming from Williamsburg, so depending on the weather, might subway/walk it, or if we're feeling particularly lazy, take a cab. Do they have valet parking? We could drive there in my mother-in-law's beat up 1980-something taurus station wagon (which she uses to haul paint, drop cloths, brushes, gardening implements, etc.). It is a lovely vehicle - only one of the doors works, one of the the back seats is stuck permanently in the down position, the upholstry is pretty much gone, at least two windows are cracked, and everything is covered with a nice layer of dust, dirt and paint.

Just kidding.

Edited by alicia, 19 December 2003 - 03:32 PM.

[alicia]

Allright! You've given me my excuse to splurge- sixth wedding anniversarry, but tenth year together (and we rarely get to NYC more than once a year) - we take a car service, AND go to lunch the next day!

[jogoode]

Yesterday, I got to take off from work for a few hours at the last minute and had lunch at Le Bernardin with Bond Girl. I was happy to see the room almost full when we sat down, at 12:30. I was the only one there in a five-dollar blazer with big, gold buttons. Ripert was shaking hands in the dining room, and when I left he was sitting and chatting at a table.

Lunch started, as it had the two other times I'd been to LB, with toasted bread and salmon rillettes, which I could have eaten all day.

Before only one of my three lunches, the second one, did they serve an amuse -- a great one of thumbnail-sized pieces of fried squid, mentioned earlier in the thread. No amuse this time.

Bond Girl:
HAMACHI TARTARE Topped with Wasabi Tobiko; Ginger-Coriander Emulsion

I would never have ordered this dish, but I'm glad she did. Like most tartares, this was a cylindric pile of chopped fish. The wasabi tobiko, which I usually dismiss as kitschy when I see it on a menu, delivered texture in sweet, bracing pops. The ginger-coriander emulsion came, I think, by way of a light mayonnaise beneath the fish. Excellent yellowtail.

Me:
BAY SCALLOP-SEA URCHIN Marinated with Lime and Extra Virgin Olive Oil: "Ceviche Style"

In my experience, the raw apps at LB come in much smaller portions than the "lightly-cooked" apps. I could have finished my dish in two bites, but I took it slowly, constructing perfect little bites of scallop, thick cut to retain its texture, lobes of urchin, microscopic diced tomato, and a few slivers of red onion. The lime and olive oil was combined to silky effect, and the lime didn't overwhelm, as it does in so many ceviches around town. If I could have had a meal composed only of those tiny portions, I'd would have happily stayed through the dinner service, constantly nibbling.

I had been dreaming for a year about the dish of urchin pasta with warm urchin and caviar that they serve, but I couldn't bring myself to pay the $50 supplement.

Extra Course: Ravioli of Argentinean Shrimp and Wild Mushrooms Foie Gras-Truffle Sauce

I've eaten this dish every time I've been to LB: the first time I ordered it, the second someone at my table ordered it, and here it was again. I get a little star struck when I eat dishes like this -- truffles do that to me. I can say that the dish was well-executed each time: the pasta had been cooked perfectly, the sauce was rich but did not overwhelm the flavors of the shrimp, the shrimp themselves cooked just through, never chewy. Bond Girl said the dish was good but a little flat. I see her point. I think a little more salt on the ravioli -- to be sure, it was not bland -- would have cut the richness of the sauce, added another dimension of flavor, and encouraged the cilantro and mushroom in the ravioli, which were welcome during my first taste of the dish, about nine months ago, but were not as clear this time. Sorry to ramble, but this was the first time I had gotten to try the same dish more than once in a four-star.

Bond Girl:
SKATE Poached Skate Wing with Lemon Brown Butter; Tangy Carrot-Lemon Broth and Butternut Squash

I wasn't so sure about this dish as I ate it and when I thought about it after the meal I decided it was truly disappointing. My dad had skate on my second visit and it was great, in brown butter with capers alongside "braised lettuces." Yesterday, it was encircled by funny balls of butternut squash and had poured around it a not-very-tangy carrot sauce, possibly with coconut in it. The skate was cooked well, but the dish did not excite.

Me:
WILD ALASKAN SALMON
Barely Cooked Salmon on a Bed of Red Wine Braised Leeks; Black Truffle-Butter "Vinaigrette"

Ask me what is my least favorite fish. Go on, ask: salmon. I can never decide what I want at these damn restaurants. Everything sounds great. But sometimes, impulsively, I order the thing I think I'm least likely to love. I do, though, love raw salmon, so I thought that barely cooked, this salmon had potential. It was one of the best dishes I've ever eaten. This was the first dish I've had at LB that was aggressively salted. The salmon was warm, cooked enough to shed its resistant texture but not nearly enough to flake: the two pieces were still a vivid orange-pink. The truffle vinaigrette was nicely acidic, the leeks tender and sweet.

Desserts (we were given a sampling because Bond Girl knew someone in the kitchen. Ditto for the extra course):

CHOCOLATE
Warm Chocolate Tart with Melting Whipped Cream and Dark Chocolate Sauce
ALMOND-PEAR
Warm Baked Almond Cake; Marinated Pear Salad and Pear William Sorbet
YUZU
Yuzu Lemon Tart and Ginger Parfait topped with a Thin Caramel Tuile

The yuzu and the chocolate I had had before. Both are very basic, and very good. The almond-pear, which I thought at first was almond-green apple, was awesome.

On my first visit, I thought the service unfriendly, or at least a little cold. Nothing specific gave me that impression, it was a general feeling, but my subsequent visits have corrected it. The service is unintrusive; it included nothing gratuitous.

This meal was special because it was the first meal after which I got a tour of the kitchen! I had never seen the kitchen of a restaurant, and I was surprised at how small it was and how many people were stuffed inside. I also saw the relatively new kitchen (2 years old) that serves the private rooms upstairs. I met a few sous chefs and Ripert. What a day! And all this in my horrible, horrible blazer...

[winemike]

I have been to Le Bernardin on saturday evening for the late serving (10 pm).

Well, all in all, I was far from being impressed, be it the food, the service
or the setting.

The first shock was how packed the place is. You could not squeeze any
additional table. Our table (we were 3 people) was surrounded by 3 other
tables that were so close, we had the impression of dining with the other
guests at our table. Most annoying.
Of course, the place being packed, it was also incredibly LOUD. I could barely
hear the waiter... !! And there were so many waiters RUNNING around.
Constantly hitting my wife's chair. It gave us a feeling of "train station
restaurant". I thought that was a real joke.

Anyway, I was given the wine list (well before the menus) and then I was
asked by the waiter to choose the wine ... without having seen the menu !!!!
When I told him I'd decide what to drink once I know what I'd be eating,
he told me that "we serve fish here, you could choose any white wine".
I could not believe what I had heard
At that point, I should have just left the place. Immediately.
Though, I wanted to eat there for a while and was in NY just for 2 days
so we decided to stay and get the food that I remembered to be fantastic.

The waiter was simply horrible. When given the menu, I did not even have
time to read it that he was already waiting to take the order.
Stop pressuring me !!! I'm here to relax, have good food and good wine.
And take my time to eat. Or I would have gone to McDonalds !

Alright, then came the food.
I first had "Geoduck, thinly sliced marinated in lime-wasabi".
This was good, well balanced flavors, just a touch of coriander. A very refreshing
dish. It was good but I was not blown away. I tought it was good without
being brilliant. Of course, the problem being that everything around us
causing stress, we were not in the best mood for appreciating the food.
Then I had "Bouillabaisse". Well, not something I will remember.
It was .. just a bouillabaisse. Shrimps were overcooked, the aioli crab cake
was just alright and the lobster saffron broth was just .. well... good.
I had better bouillabaisse in quite a number of cheap eateries in south of France.
very disappointing.
Then we had "Steamed Maine Lobster with Corn and Chanterelle Stuffed Cabbage, Bacon Butter Sauce"
This was brilliant. Really good. Lobster cooked to absolute perfection, the sauce
was divine. And the Corn and chanterelle stuffed cabbage just nicely complemented
the dish. We all really enjoyed this dish. I tought "at last !!!" I understand why
it is expensive to dine here.

The desserts were fabulous.
"Warm Chocolate Tart with Melting Whipped Cream and Dark Chocolate Sauce"
was exactly as I remembered it when I first ate it about 3 years ago. Grand !!
Perfect temperature so the chocolate was just melting, the taste was incredible.
Just the perfect sweetness, the crust was great and .. well .. it was just great.
The sommelier offered us "Yuzu Lemon Tart and Ginger Parfait topped with a Thin Caramel Tuile".
That was truly nice from him and this dessert was amazing.
The lemon tart was of perfect consistency, the lemon flavour not too
acidic, the thin caramel tuile was great. Beautifully presented. A masterpiece.

In between, people had started leaving the place so it was much quieter
and much more enjoyable. The sommelier spent quite some time talking
about .... wine of course with us and I really enjoyed the quick chats.

Eventually, we almost left with a positive feeling but the whole experience
was spoiled from what happened in the first part of our dinner.
The impression of "hurry up, we need to serve more people to make more
money", "choose a white wine, we serve fish here" ... completely unacceptable
in a place like that.

I do not intend to return there at my next stop in NY because I've left
far too much money for what I got. There is surely other places were diners are
treated better (food, service and setting). Alain Ducasse, for instance ?!
Of course, it might just have been a night off. But at that price, there is no excuse...

[Bux]

Strange, as I recall, le Bernardin had a pretty extensive list of red wines--for a fish place. I'd be very disappointed to get overcooked shrimp at le Bernardin. However, I'd also not expect to get a bouillabaisse in New York, or in a haute cuisine restaurant in any city that resembled the original dish in Marseille or anywhere along the Mediterannean coast of France.

[Fat Guy]

Haute cuisine dishes are almost universally more refined, and therefore less rustic, than their non-haute counterparts. The bouillabaisse served at Le Bernardin is, in my opinion, an excellent dish in its own right that is probably best described as "inspired by bouillabaisse."

What I take away from winemike's post is that I won't be booking a late table at Le Bernardin. Not that I often book late at any restaurant -- it's very often a problematic sitting. Kitchens and managers tend to put a lot of pressure on waitstaff to get the last sitting's orders in right away. Then they can bang out the food, ascertain that things are on autopilot, and go home, leaving the waiters and pastry assistants to stand around all night waiting to close.

[winemike]

Of course, I did not expect bouillabaisse at Le Bernardin to be a real bouillabaisse.
I did not express myself very well, here...
Don't get me wrong, all in all it was good. But I was not that impressed with it. That's all.
There was also the frustration of having had two dishes at that stage and not one
of them was mind blowing. With only one left before dessert, I really thought that
this place is not worth it anymore ...
Clearly my mood interacted here. If everything had been perfect before, I might have
found the dish better ?? But the shrimp was still overcooked

Bux, the wine list has a great selection of red wines. But it's the waiter ... taking me for
an idiot by saying that they "serve fish here" and implying that "white wine" going with
fish, I could just pick any white I like. The more I think about, the more I think I should have left.
It was just insulting.

I hope it's all related to the late serving. Waiters are tired, cooks too and it all transpires....
But if they can't make it, they should just have two servings. I will not go back there for
any serving now. Early, "normal" or late ...

[Fat Guy]

If a tree falls and nobody hears it . . .

The complaint about the waiter should be taken to the restaurant's owner, in writing. Hopefully the waiter's name, the table number, and the time of the meal are on the receipt -- they usually are.

If everything happened exactly as stated here and there's no issue of miscommunication, misinterpretation, or anything of that nature, then the waiter needs to be taken aside by management and given a stern warning. But the waiter also needs to be allowed to explain himself. Worse, he could have been operating at the direction of middle management -- there is a tendency for this sort of thing to come from above.

[winemike]

I intended to do that and definitely will.
There was no miscommunication and no misunderstanding. My wife and our friend were as shocked as I was.

[Fat Guy]

There could have been a misunderstanding on the waiter's part, however. Sometimes we ask one question and a waiter hears another question, and the answer to the wrong question sounds incredibly obnoxious to the person who asked the right one. Or it's possible that your waiter was an asshole. Either way, I hope he is confronted.

[winemike]

I had not asked him any question, he just came and coldly said that.
Maybe he answered a question asked at another table. They were so close, it
would not surprise me

[marcus]

I had better bouillabaisse in quite a number of cheap eateries in south of France.

At a recent disappointing dinner at Le Bernardin, I had their bouillabaisse as part of the tasting menu. One must acknowledge that the broth was described on the menu as being based on lobster, which was how it tasted, so it should not be directly compared to the deeper flavored and far more interesting fish based varieties in the Mediterannean areas. My complaint was that it tasted sweetened, which to me is a major turn-off.

Without an specific horror story, I found the service which, I would once have described as the best in NY, to have declined significantly across the board, and we had a 7:30 reservation. The diners also struck me as much more of a bridge and tunnel crowd than I used to see there.

[JMayer]

What I take away from winemike's post is that I won't be booking a late table at Le Bernardin. Not that I often book late at any restaurant -- it's very often a problematic sitting. Kitchens and managers tend to put a lot of pressure on waitstaff to get the last sitting's orders in right away. Then they can bang out the food, ascertain that things are on autopilot, and go home, leaving the waiters and pastry assistants to stand around all night waiting to close.

There is no excuse for bad service.

There could have been a misunderstanding on the waiter's part, however. Sometimes we ask one question and a waiter hears another question, and the answer to the wrong question sounds incredibly obnoxious to the person who asked the right one.

In my experience miscomunications do not occur as often as people claim. And in a highly profesional enviornment such as LB, I would expect that the waiter would have enough sense to interpret possible miscomunications and ask the diner to explain himself or herself better.

Worse, he could have been operating at the direction of middle management -- there is a tendency for this sort of thing to come from above.

When one person lets down the team, the whole team fails not just the indivdual (sorry for the preachy tone). In my opinion it is not important who told who what, the fact is somewhere the service failed to meet the expectations of the diner. Therefore, the entire restaurant failed, not just the waiter who may or may not have been following someone elses orders.

I am not trying to pick on you fatguy, just wanted to express some of my opinions.
More to follow!
-Justin

Edited by JMayer, 01 March 2004 - 04:07 PM.

[Fat Guy]

There is no excuse for bad service.

Do you also believe the customer is always right?

It's easy to lay down axioms of this nature, but the reality is that there are lots of excuses for bad service: servers are human beings not machines; service is a highly variable interpersonal phenomenon subject to many interpretations; and, most importantly, SHIT HAPPENS.

I've experienced poor service incidents in some of the top-rated restaurants in the world: Taillevent, Daniel, and French Laundry, just to name a few. The eGullet boards are chock full of bad-service stories about Michelin three-star restaurants all over Europe. Life throws you curveballs like that sometimes. I wish it never happened, but it does. So you have to go to Plan B and ask what you're going to do about it.

There is some positive news, though: direct intervention can turn bad beginnings into good endings. It's a given that every restaurant in the world, no matter how good, will fuck up once in awhile. What distinguishes the men from the boys is how those fuck-ups get handled once brought to the attention of management. That's the true test of a restaurant's mettle. What I've found is that, in the best restaurants, if you speak up about a service or food problem, they often handle it so well that you not only forgive the error but also develop newfound respect for the establishment.

Of course confrontation on-the-spot is difficult, even for bastards like me. So sometimes letter-writing after the meal is the only option -- but it's always a second-best option.

I should point out that, in the case of Le Bernardin, my mother-in-law wrote them a letter of complaint a couple of years ago and got a full-page hand-written response from Ripert. Unfortunately, I didn't find the response particularly helpful -- it was to my mind a bit condescending -- but at least it was something. Nonetheless, I can't help but think that had she brought her complaint to the attention of management on the spot, she would have had better results.

[JMayer]

Fatguy here is a post I was working on before I read your latest, I think it addresses many of the issues you raise. Thank you for a very insightful post, I very much enjoyed reading it. In terms of the customer always being right, I do not think this is always the case, however, sometimes I think restaurants forget that they are in the SERVICE business. I will elaborate on this further in a future post, but for know this is what I wrote down earlier today on MS Word…..
This may sound a little like a rant, but reading winemike’s experience inspired me. Sometimes no matter how hard a restaurant tries they cannot please some customers, however, upon reviewing winemike’s post I highly doubt this is the case. To me it seems like LB is trying to maximize its profits by booking to many seating and simply failed in the service aspect.
Some people may argue that the waiter was having a bad day or he or she is a bad egg and you should not let this spoil the whole basket. However, if I am going to spend, $500 on a basket of eggs there had better not be any spoiled eggs in it, and if there were, I would have the right to be extremely disappointed. Regarding the waiter having a bad day, I do not care if you are having a bad day; do not take it out on me. We all have bad days, does this give us the right to treat people lesser. If your having such a bad day don’t come into work, however, if you do come into work your there to serve at my pleasure (as if I were to serve you I would serve at your pleasure). Is it acceptable for a pilot, who is having a bad day, to land a plane in a haphazardly manner? Moreover, waiters please leave your pretense at the door. I do not care how much knowledge of food you have or how great the executive chef is, there is no reason for you to treat a person as if they are smaller then you.
I am not unrealistic and think that restaurants such as LB can succeed with every customer. Sometimes a restaurant will fail; no individual or team can be perfect all the time. Some failures are greater then others, however, at the end of the day it is still a failure. One failure does not justify a bad restaurant (even several failures) it is the overall opinion of people and repeated visits by people that formulate the quality of a restaurant. If someone goes to a restaurant several times and is consistently disappointed then there is cause for alarm!

Cheers,
Justin

[winemike]

To me it seems like LB is trying to maximize its profits by booking to many seating and simply failed in the service aspect.

Exactly the problem. Thanks for putting it that clearly.
3 servings + maximum number of tables in the room ->
seeing so many waiters around - running - makes you dizzy. Or at least, stressed me.
And of course, implies that sometimes, service screws up, especially for the late serving
... which is unfortunately what happened to me...
Now, I must say that I am not used to dine in NY and that I'm more familiar with how
diners are treated in France. Of course, you got the problem of the bloody arrogant
French waiters there
But maybe this extra parameter emphasised the negative vibe ?

Many of you have got an amazing knowledge of France, would you think the cultural difference
has played a bigger role than I thought ?? (I thought not...)

[Scott]

I've always been amused by the philosophy of cooking at Le Bernardin.  As I recall it was something to the effect that they believe in letting the delicate flavor of fresh seafood come through without overpowering the dish with overly assertive sauces spices or preparation.  Well fine, you serve me a simple seafood dish without a lot of distracting sauces or seasoning, then charge me $40 for the plate?

Sorry, but when I am dropping $150 on a meal I expect you guys to be back in that kitchen breaking a sweat and rattling those pots and pans.

Also I found the austere, cavernous cafeteria-esque dining room to be a put-off too.

This is much closer ot my experience.

I left plenty disappointed. The cooking was not exceptional, and was frankly a little underwhelming. I hated the room, though being in what must have been the worst table in the house couldn't have hurt.

my starter is one the worst haute cuisine dishes I have ever been served. It wasn't flawed or actually badly prepared it was just so ill conceived.
Foie gras ravioli in foie and black truffle sauce. It was too rich and it was unbalanced. it was just piling on luxury ingredient after luxury ingredient, it was not a 'whole' or complete dish - rather than being artistic it was a finger painting. the ravioli itself was seriously undercooked - nb. not al dente, far from it. I wouldn't have minded but it was virtually assailed upon me by the waiter, i just had to have it. The atlantic bass with orange and ginger asian broth was technically a finely prepared dish but a little bland.
the wine list was vastly overpriced.
service? we'd have had more luck spotting the lochness monster than our waiter.

But what made it worse? it was below freezing outside, with enough windchill to create the original brass monkey, and they refused to order us a cab at the end of the meal. No sorry sir, we can not, suggest you try to hail one in the street. Mild protestation, followed by complete dismissal, I would have made a scene, but I was in shock. thinking back I still am.

In no way a bad restaurant, and albeit based on one meal only, in no way an exceptional one either.

Edited by Scott, 02 March 2004 - 10:22 AM.

[Bux]

Can one call a cab in NYC? I did it once in 1973. I haven't done it since. Can one still do that. I looked for taxi companies in the yellow pages, but it seemed that all I found were car services, liveries and limousine services listed under "taxis." If it can be done, it seems to be unusual. NYC is a peculiar place that way.

Le Bernardin is not a fish house in the sense that it ever serves simple unsauced seafood. To cook simple fish or seafood with simple sauce and garnish that compliments the fish rather than with an overly assertive sauces spices or preparation, not only requires considerably greater talent and skills, but a much higher quality of raw product to start with. To imply otherwise, is to only state that you don't understand what restaurants such as le Bernardin are trying to accomplish, not that they fail to to achieve their aim. As such it's little more than a statement of subjective taste and provides no basis for understanding any post to which it serves as an introduction.

[Bux]

winemike, I think I understood your points fairly well. My comment about the extensive red wine list was in support of your shock at the waiter's comment regarding wine choices. It was years ago, but I recall having a tasting menu there. One of our party knew Eric Ripert and was very close friends with a chef friend of Ripert's. We were treated well, although I don't mean to imply I have ever not been treated well there, both before and after Ripert took the helm. As we approached the final savory course, we also ran out of wine. The sommelier countered our choice of wines with the suggestion that the next course would go well with a red wine. Actually, it could have gone with either a choice of red or whites, but following our other wines, red was really the better choice for contrast.

My bouillabaise comment was just a comment at large and not a criticism. I also sensed that you enjoyed most of your meal very much and that with better, or should I say proper, service, you would have come away pleased. I don't know how close the tables are these days. We travel a bit and use most of our discretionary funds to dine when we are traveling, although le Bernardin has been on our short list for a return visit for some time. I have good memories of it.

[Scott]

Le Bernardin is not a fish house in the sense that it ever serves simple unsauced seafood. To cook simple fish or seafood with simple sauce and garnish that compliments the fish rather than with an overly assertive sauces spices or preparation, not only requires considerably greater talent and skills, but a much higher quality of raw product to start with. To imply otherwise, is to only state that you don't understand what restaurants such as le Bernardin are trying to accomplish, not that they fail to to achieve their aim. As such it's little more than a statement of subjective taste and provides no basis for understanding any post to which it serves as an introduction.

simple well sourced fish, blah, blah, blah.
heard it all before, it's not good enough to claim we are letting the fish speak for itself if all you are doing is ringing the best wholesaler in town and providing unimaginative preparations.
this does not make you a temple of high gastronomy.

there is nothing to misunderstand here, I found the meal underwhelming, and lacking in creativity. I grant you it was a single time, and so it shall remain.

Yes, a high end end gastro temple does need to show creativity, technique, and sympathy for the produce.

Also Bux you are fundamentally wrong if you state it requires greater talent and technique to present a simply prepared fish. It might to some require greater empathy of produce, but this isn't rocket science - and if you're not providing rocket science do not claim to be NASA. which is my beef, pardon the pun, I did not feel it lived up to it's reputation.
I would not accept this meal at Le Divellac and wouldn't be expected to either.

[jogoode]

simple well sourced fish, blah, blah, blah.
heard it all before, it's not good enough to claim we are letting the fish speak for itself if all you are doing is ringing the best wholesaler in town and providing unimaginative preparations.
this does not make you a temple of high gastronomy.

there is nothing to misunderstand here, I found the meal underwhelming, and lacking in creativity. I grant you it was a single time, and so it shall remain.

Scott, sorry if I'm not understanding you, but Bux tried to emphasize that Le Bernardin is NOT a simple seafood place that, as you say, "rings the best wholesaler in town." Further, that list bit trivializes, in my opinion, the task of the chef's developing relationships with fisherman and wholesalers. As far as I know, Esca, for ex, serves very simple seafood, but if you think that all Pasternack is doing is calling a wholesaler and ordering some fish, you are way off.

Secondly, I do believe you're experience at Le Bernardin was underwhelming. I don't think anyone is doubting that. But I would recommend returning, despite the expense -- maybe for lunch. The barely cooked salmon at LB, and the bass in peking duck bullion, are dishes I'll remember for a very long time.

[Fat Guy]

Le Bernardin's menu runs the gamut from minimalist presentions to intricate creations, and from "Almost Raw" to heavily reduced and extracted. It would be a mistake to characterize it as focused on one of those styles -- http://le-bernardin....enu_dinner.html

The restaurant has perhaps the most versatile seafood kitchen in America. It takes a few meals there to find the parts of the rather large menu that match one's preferences, but I don't recall ever having a bad dish there.

[Scott]

simple well sourced fish, blah, blah, blah.
heard it all before, it's not good enough to claim we are letting the fish speak for itself if all you are doing is ringing the best wholesaler in town and providing unimaginative preparations.
this does not make you a temple of high gastronomy.

there is nothing to misunderstand here, I found the meal underwhelming, and lacking in creativity.  I grant you it was a single time, and so it shall remain.

Scott, sorry if I'm not understanding you, but Bux tried to emphasize that Le Bernardin is NOT a simple seafood place that, as you say, "rings the best wholesaler in town." Further, that list bit trivializes, in my opinion, the task of the chef's developing relationships with fisherman and wholesalers. As far as I know, Esca, for ex, serves very simple seafood, but if you think that all Pasternack is doing is calling a wholesaler and ordering some fish, you are way off.

Secondly, I do believe you're experience at Le Bernardin was underwhelming. I don't think anyone is doubting that. But I would recommend returning, despite the expense -- maybe for lunch. The barely cooked salmon at LB, and the bass in peking duck bullion, are dishes I'll remember for a very long time.

Jo,

You may very well be right. If I am honest, I wouldn't be surprised if there was more to come, as It would be hard pressed to have gained it's reputation on that one night.

I probably am trivialising the relationships between restauranteur and supplier, and If so it's because I understand how hard and important it is to do so. I do in turn get snuffy if the suggestion is that this is all that's required. Maybe I have misunderstood the premise here.
Neil Perry at Rockpool in sydney is obsessive about his fish sourcing, to the extent a large amount of his fish is sourced of the frozen waters off Japan, where specialist trawlers immediately 'brain spike' the catch to induce rigamortis. It is then flown in to Sydney.
I don't know anyone who goes further, but I still find the restaurant itself variable. I think at times, they over-egg the pudding. regardless, I wouldn't go to a seafood restaurant of the highest order to marvel at their produce, that's a given - now elevate it.

Given their status I just didn't see enough attempt to elevate the produce at Le Bernadin to something even greater still. Though as I have said I appreciate the imperfect nature of conclusions formed on one visit.

[robyn]

But if they can't make it, they should just have two servings. I will not go back there for
any serving now. Early, "normal" or late ...

Le B apparently isn't the only restaurant with this problem. I recalled this article from the Wall Street Journal:

Fast Food Meets Pricey Spots As Restaurants End Lingering

June 21, 2002, The Wall Street Journal, 2117 words

Janet Kleinman recently spent $400 at New York restaurant Cello, feasting on lobster and foie-gras risotto -- and left with a sour taste in her mouth. The waiters, she says, hustled her family out in ...

PURCHASE THE FULL ARTICLE FOR ONLY $2.95*

I ate at one of the restaurants mentioned in the article - not Cello (before I read the article). The restaurant clearly didn't want us to take more than 5 minutes to order - and it delivered our main course before we had finished our appetizer! Needless to say - I won't be returning to that restaurant. Robyn

[JMayer]

Le Bernardin is not a fish house in the sense that it ever serves simple unsauced seafood. To cook simple fish or seafood with simple sauce and garnish that compliments the fish rather than with an overly assertive sauces spices or preparation, not only requires considerably greater talent and skills, but a much higher quality of raw product to start with. To imply otherwise, is to only state that you don't understand what restaurants such as le Bernardin are trying to accomplish, not that they fail to to achieve their aim. As such it's little more than a statement of subjective taste and provides no basis for understanding any post to which it serves as an introduction.

Is it me BUX or are you contradicting yourself in this post? Does LB serve simple fish or not? And what are these other "fish houses" you speak of (are they the ones preparing complex seafood or are they simply preparing seafood)? Most seafood type places I have went to (i.e) Joe's Stone crab, Shaw's etc...serve their fish unsauced much like a traditional steak house. The emphasis at these places is the seafood, and little else; the side dishes are simple and the atmosphere is simple However, these places do not serve haute cuisine (which is what makes LB unique in my opinion). Maybe you could clarify what you mean.

Thanks,
Justin

Edited by JMayer, 03 March 2004 - 07:55 PM.

[Bux]

Justin,

I thought I was clear, but perhaps not. Le Bernardin serves haute cuisine preparations of great sophistication. I hate to use that word as it implies that there's something unsophisticated about simply prepared fresh fish, but I trust people understand what I mean. Hmmm, maybe I shouldn't.

Perhaps I should have written "never" rather than "ever," or "le Bernardin is not a fish house in the sense of those which serve simple unsauced seafood." My sentence was sloppy, but I think everyone knows what kind of place le Bernardin is. Apologies for any misunderstanding. Le Bernardin is anything but the seafood equivalent of Peter Lugar.

[Bux]

Le Bernardin is not a fish house in the sense that it ever serves simple unsauced seafood. To cook simple fish or seafood with simple sauce and garnish that compliments the fish rather than with an overly assertive sauces spices or preparation, not only requires considerably greater talent and skills, but a much higher quality of raw product to start with. To imply otherwise, is to only state that you don't understand what restaurants such as le Bernardin are trying to accomplish, not that they fail to to achieve their aim. As such it's little more than a statement of subjective taste and provides no basis for understanding any post to which it serves as an introduction.

simple well sourced fish, blah, blah, blah.
heard it all before, it's not good enough to claim we are letting the fish speak for itself if all you are doing is ringing the best wholesaler in town and providing unimaginative preparations.
this does not make you a temple of high gastronomy.

there is nothing to misunderstand here, I found the meal underwhelming, and lacking in creativity. I grant you it was a single time, and so it shall remain.

Yes, a high end end gastro temple does need to show creativity, technique, and sympathy for the produce.

Also Bux you are fundamentally wrong if you state it requires greater talent and technique to present a simply prepared fish. It might to some require greater empathy of produce, but this isn't rocket science - and if you're not providing rocket science do not claim to be NASA. which is my beef, pardon the pun, I did not feel it lived up to it's reputation.
I would not accept this meal at Le Divellac and wouldn't be expected to either.

I'm uneasy with your reply as I didn't criticize anything you wrote. I was quite critical of the post you chose to quote to open your post.

[As a New Yorker I'm delighted to see "well sourced fish" in a thread that also mentions "well sauced fish," by the way. I shall always think of le Bernardin as a place where the fish are "well sawced" or something like that.]

Whatever you've heard before, isn't what I said in my post. I did not eat your meal and can't comment on what you ate. It may well have been underwhelming and lacking in creativity. I have not always found le Bernardin to be the most creative restaurant. I've not been there in a while. I value creativity very much, but there's more to haute cuisine than creativity and I value traditional food that's well cooked to "in your face creativity" at the hands of a chef and kitchen brigade that is lacking in technical ability and experience. For all my shlepping out to eat chez Gagnaire or Adria, I am the kind of guy, as I mentioned somewhere recently on the site, who gets sent pork belly or tete de veau from the kitchen when I eat off the menu. I go back to my point and that is that you picked a poor quotation to lead into your message as it did not lend credibility to your post. That quote was of someone who apparently didn't understand what le Bernardin was about on a good day.

And you sir, are fundamentally wrong if you think I said what you think I said. Seriously, there was a misunderstanding and maybe I cleared it up in my reply to Justin and maybe JJ's already done some work on that score. If I have had a weakness in my appreciation for food, it's that I've valued the work in the kitchen over the raw product in my time. I have never been a fan of the American steak house or the American fish house. Oddly enough travel in Spain, in search of the most creative kichen handiwork, has also given me great insight into the appreciation of simple seafood and roast meat. I am less likely to dismiss simple cooking that I used to be, but yes, at le Bernardin one expects the finest seafood available in NY plus the greatest skill and saucing where appropriate. An oyster needs nothing more than a bit of lemon juice and a grind of pepper--but I wouldn't go to le Bernardin for oysters. If they didn't elevate the product in your eyes (or mouth) you have a right to be disappointed.

[JMayer]

Thanks BUX, I understand what you mean now. I just got confused with the wording a little bit, but now that I went back and read your posts they make sense. I like what you have to say. Thanks for the informative responses.


Cheers,
Justin

Edited by JMayer, 03 March 2004 - 10:19 PM.

[winemike]

Following my disappointing experience at Le Bernardin, I have sent a letter to the owners of the place explaining why I was not satisfied with my dinner there (the waiter's attitude being a big part of the problem).
I have left my e-mail, phone numbers and, of course, address and almost 3 months later, I still have not heard anything from them. No mail, no call, no e-mail.

It seems like they really don't care about their customer's comments ...

[robert40]

Michael Laiskonis is the new pastry chef.

Link. Scroll down.
http://andreastrong...._view_brain.php

Good luck with your new position Michael.