Jump to content


Welcome to the eG Forums!

These forums are a service of the Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, a 501c3 nonprofit organization dedicated to advancement of the culinary arts. Anyone can read the forums, however if you would like to participate in active discussions please join the Society.

Photo

Making Soy Sauce At Home

Chinese Condiments

  • Please log in to reply
80 replies to this topic

#31 Laksa

Laksa
  • participating member
  • 874 posts
  • Location:Verona, NJ

Posted 03 April 2008 - 01:19 PM

Very interesting project. I have a few questions.

How much is 4 lbs of water in volume measure? I'm guessing it's around 2 quarts or 2 liters?

Is that the smallest amount one would reasonable make?

How much soy sauce do you end up with after evaporation?

#32 DCP

DCP
  • participating member
  • 258 posts
  • Location:Baltimore metro area, MD, USA

Posted 03 April 2008 - 02:01 PM

How much is 4 lbs of water in volume measure?  I'm guessing it's around 2 quarts or 2 liters?

View Post


Give or take, yes: ~1.8 L or ~0.48 US gallons. I'll leave it to any SSBs wandering by to explain how specific gravity changes with temperature.

"A pint's a pound the world around" is still a decent estimating tool, even with the inaccuracy.
David aka "DCP"
Amateur protein denaturer, Maillard reaction experimenter, & gourmand-at-large

#33 canucklehead

canucklehead
  • participating member
  • 1,605 posts

Posted 03 April 2008 - 05:25 PM

Very interesting project.  I have a few questions.

How much is 4 lbs of water in volume measure?  I'm guessing it's around 2 quarts or 2 liters?

Is that the smallest amount one would reasonable make?

How much soy sauce do you end up with after evaporation?

View Post


How much you end up with depends on your taste. You can dilute it by adding cold boiled water.

But generally - it seemed like a lot. It takes my uncle and aunt a good year to get through it all. I'm guessing a couple of litres at least.

Ack - sorry to be so vague! If he makes another batch - I promise to take better notes.

#34 stuart_s

stuart_s
  • participating member
  • 83 posts

Posted 07 April 2008 - 01:18 PM

Fascinating. Thanks for starting such a great thread.

Are the bean/flour slices added to the brine whole?

After they're soaked in brine what steps remain? Your last pictures don't look like soy sauce. How do you separate the soy sauce and the miso? Is anything left over after those are extracted? Is there anything that needs to be discarded?

Thank you.

#35 canucklehead

canucklehead
  • participating member
  • 1,605 posts

Posted 07 April 2008 - 05:35 PM

Are the bean/flour slices added to the brine whole?

yes

After they're soaked in brine what steps remain?

The whole thing sits out in the sun for a number of weeks - as long as it is sunny.

Your last pictures don't look like soy sauce. How do you separate the soy sauce and the miso?

They soy sauce is quite light - and has a sharper tang to it. My uncle theorizes that this is because that we don't get enough hot sun here in Vancouver. So the mash does not 'cook out' as long as it should. I think he just pours off the liquid - obviously, the filtration is not 100% - but given the light color and short period in the sun - he did not want to filter off to much of the flavors.

Is anything left over after those are extracted?

The solids left over is the miso. I don't think that you discard anything. The miso has better flavor if you let it evaporate down and not extract the liquid as soy sauce.

Edited by canucklehead, 07 April 2008 - 05:36 PM.


#36 stuart_s

stuart_s
  • participating member
  • 83 posts

Posted 08 April 2008 - 11:42 AM

Thanks for your patience with my slow speed at grasping this.

How is the liquid extracted? Is it just spooned out? Filtered? Is that final picture exactly what it looks like when you use it?

Are the bean/flour slices added to the brine whole?

yes

After they're soaked in brine what steps remain?

The whole thing sits out in the sun for a number of weeks - as long as it is sunny.

Your last pictures don't look like soy sauce. How do you separate the soy sauce and the miso?

They soy sauce is quite light - and has a sharper tang to it. My uncle theorizes that this is because that we don't get enough hot sun here in Vancouver. So the mash does not 'cook out' as long as it should. I think he just pours off the liquid - obviously, the filtration is not 100% - but given the light color and short period in the sun - he did not want to filter off to much of the flavors.

Is anything left over after those are extracted?

The solids left over is the miso. I don't think that you discard anything. The miso has better flavor if you let it evaporate down and not extract the liquid as soy sauce.

View Post



#37 Magictofu

Magictofu
  • participating member
  • 776 posts
  • Location:Ottawa, Canada

Posted 09 April 2008 - 10:21 AM

Here's an article from Mother Earth News:

http://www.motherear...-Soy-Sauce.aspx

#38 inigoaguirre

inigoaguirre
  • participating member
  • 21 posts
  • Location:madrid

Posted 17 April 2008 - 01:07 AM

[
yes, the difference between soy sauce making and miso making is the quantity of water you put and the ingredients. for the japanese soyzu you sould use soy beans and flour on aprox the same proportion. chinese normally use less quantities of flour.
miso has very little water content (then again depends very much on the miso, for instance, hatcho miso is very solid and has hardly any water)

the brine should have around 25% salt (you sould heat at least a part of the water in order to dissolve the salt otherwise you would end up with all the cristals in the bottom)
kikkoman uses for their classic soyzu 23% salt; you can also find soy sauce with low salt content, but the proportion should still be quite high

re. filtering: you can filter the soy sauce (i still have to work out how to filter it, I havent jet reached that stage, but i'll try it with a shive and a weight). traditionally in japan villages you could get someone to filter for a more pure and clear product. you can also not filter it, as they do with traditional north vietnammese soy sauce.

re. pasteurization the best possible way to pasturize soy sauce is 4 hours at 70ºC (158º F)... but you can have it not pasterized and the final product would have a richer and more complex aroma. i am currently doing soy sauce at home and will pasteurize only a part of it in order to have lasting longer.

you could see the photos on the process on by blog (it's in spanish, sorry). the soy sauce have only been in the sun for around 2 weeks. will post pictures as it brews in the brine. click below to go to the article:

umami madrid's weblog

Edited by inigoaguirre, 17 April 2008 - 01:33 AM.

____________________________________________

Umami-Madrid
New Cooking Techniques & Asian Ingredients - In Spanish

#39 takadi

takadi
  • participating member
  • 391 posts

Posted 17 April 2008 - 02:31 AM

Inigo, in what container do you ferment your soy sauce, and how often do you stir its contents? Do you have to cover the container at night or bring it inside? Or do you put a piece of glass on top of the container like canucklehead? That's a great blog btw. How did you learn all the nuances of soy sauce making?

Btw here's a great link to traditionally made soy sauce. They extract the soy sauce by pressing down on the mixture with a bamboo strainer and siphoning out what seeps through at the top

http://chubbyhubby.net/blog/?p=271

Edited by takadi, 17 April 2008 - 02:32 AM.

  • mother of pearl likes this

#40 inigoaguirre

inigoaguirre
  • participating member
  • 21 posts
  • Location:madrid

Posted 17 April 2008 - 03:20 AM

hi takadi,

i use a plastic container for food use to ferment soy sauce and i stir it (rather than stirring it i close the container and move it around so that the soy paste doesnt crumble) twoice a day (first thing in the morning when i open the containter in order to sun the content and at night when i close it). when the temperature is not too high i just stir once every 2-3 days. mind you, i just do it for safety, i have read other recepies there the product is stirred every 3 days.

i also tried to inoculate it with aspergillus orizae but got no result out of it (it works with rice, and it's great for miso making, but not with soy) if you want to inoculate with its proper mold you should try aspergillus sojae, or like the corean do, you could also try inoculating it with dried rice plant.

if you're also interested on making miso, you can buy aspergillus orizae at: asperguillus orizae- for miso making
(its the same mold used for sake making)

i have some very interesting doc's on soy making and soy history. send me your email and i'll forward them over to you. my mail is: inigoaguirrep@hotmail.com

there's also very useful information on The Book of Miso... highly recomendable book. will soon start making miso at home. (they have a recepie on soy sauce, which you can look up at google books for free and the rest of historical information and many of the processes also apply to soy sauce making

thanks for the link, very interesting indeed (though i already knew of its existance)

for historical info and proceedure you can check out this site:
soy info center

hope it helps,

cheers,
íñigo

Edited by inigoaguirre, 17 April 2008 - 03:21 AM.

____________________________________________

Umami-Madrid
New Cooking Techniques & Asian Ingredients - In Spanish

#41 MoGa

MoGa
  • participating member
  • 213 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 17 April 2008 - 06:12 AM

I'm glad this thread has been resurrected. I'm certainly keen to make this as a future project (although I'll have to wait until I can spend some time in Spain).

I was wondering if the superbags mentioned here
http://forums.egulle...howtopic=104404

would provide a suitable way of filtering the liquid.

The whole process does seem much more straightforward than I would have imagined. It's lovely to have the chance to share the results... especially this late on when my curiosity about each stage was quickly satisfied by scrolling down :smile:

#42 inigoaguirre

inigoaguirre
  • participating member
  • 21 posts
  • Location:madrid

Posted 17 April 2008 - 07:24 AM

hi,

very good idea... yes, i had it on the "bag" of my mind as one of the options. i have a cheaper (and very good) alternative at home under another brand, but much smaller, it holds about 1 liter, and it would definetly be a heck of a job to do filter all the soy sauce it through this bag (i will have aprox about 6 liters worth of soy sauce). will try a shieve and wheight, but i really want to get a perfecly clear soy sauce, so might end up using it... anyway, will post pictures and method as it happens- wich will probably be by mid july... in madrid the temp in july is about an average of 100F/40ºC so things might speed up and hopefully the soy sauce will be much darker and tasteful

i'm glad you gained back your interest on the subject! :laugh:
____________________________________________

Umami-Madrid
New Cooking Techniques & Asian Ingredients - In Spanish

#43 canucklehead

canucklehead
  • participating member
  • 1,605 posts

Posted 17 April 2008 - 05:14 PM

you could see the photos on the process on by blog (it's in spanish, sorry). the soy sauce have only been in the sun for around 2 weeks. will post pictures as it brews in the brine. click below to go to the article:

umami madrid's weblog

View Post


Very intrested in seeing how the differences in sunlight effects the final product.

I apologize if I was not able to give specific measurements - my pictures were centered around watching what my Uncle does and not repelicating the results myself. Much of his process is done by taste and feel.

I am very excited to see how others approach making soy sauce.

#44 takadi

takadi
  • participating member
  • 391 posts

Posted 17 April 2008 - 06:30 PM

I wonder, is there a certain point in the fermentation process where it doesn't require anymore sun and you can just close off the container and leave it to ferment somewhere?

#45 inigoaguirre

inigoaguirre
  • participating member
  • 21 posts
  • Location:madrid

Posted 18 April 2008 - 11:10 AM

Very intrested in seeing how the differences in sunlight effects the final product.

I apologize if I was not able to give specific measurements - my pictures were centered around watching what my Uncle does and not repelicating the results myself. Much of his process is done by taste and feel.

I am very excited to see how others approach making soy sauce.

View Post

[/quote]

your pictures and info were a very good starting for my soy sauce process, it was what started me up into thinking about my homebreew soy sauce making project. thanks a lot for all the info!!
will post on the filtration process, apparently its not so easy, you have to filtrate the liquid and also separate the soy oil form the soyzu.

thanks a lot for your help and info
best regards,
inigo
____________________________________________

Umami-Madrid
New Cooking Techniques & Asian Ingredients - In Spanish

#46 inigoaguirre

inigoaguirre
  • participating member
  • 21 posts
  • Location:madrid

Posted 18 April 2008 - 11:15 AM

I wonder, is there a certain point in the fermentation process where it doesn't require anymore sun and you can just close off the container and leave it to ferment somewhere?

View Post


i supposse i will be trying until the taste seems good enough to stop fermenting. for me it will be a question of trying and and error (or not!)
____________________________________________

Umami-Madrid
New Cooking Techniques & Asian Ingredients - In Spanish

#47 takadi

takadi
  • participating member
  • 391 posts

Posted 22 April 2008 - 04:16 AM

Do you guys also have a recommendation for what types of soy beans or flour should be used?

Also, how much solid ingredients should be used in proportion to the water?

I actually have an old bottle of unpasteurized soy sauce that I haven't opened yet, but is it possible to introduce the strain of yeast used in the production of this soy sauce into this new batch?

Edited by takadi, 22 April 2008 - 04:24 AM.


#48 inigoaguirre

inigoaguirre
  • participating member
  • 21 posts
  • Location:madrid

Posted 22 April 2008 - 04:48 AM

i have new pictures after 3 weeks sunning... the weather has not been too good, but apparently it will improove from now onwards.
the liquid is getting much darker, and hopefully the weather will help with the process.
as you can see, a part of the soy and flour mix is dissolving and sinking at the bottom.
will post more pictures soon.

i'm not sure you can see the pictures... i'm new at egullet. in case you cant, you could see it on my blog:
umami madrid

sorry cant upload them. can anyone help me uploading the pictures?

cheers
____________________________________________

Umami-Madrid
New Cooking Techniques & Asian Ingredients - In Spanish

#49 inigoaguirre

inigoaguirre
  • participating member
  • 21 posts
  • Location:madrid

Posted 22 April 2008 - 07:48 AM

Do you guys also have a recommendation for what types of soy beans or flour should be used?

Also, how much solid ingredients should be used in proportion to the water?

I actually have an old bottle of unpasteurized soy sauce that I haven't opened yet, but is it possible to introduce the strain of yeast used in the production of this soy sauce into this new batch?

View Post


i just used normal soy beans and flour.
re: ratio solid ing in proportion to the water: i used just enough water to cover the solid ingredients.

i don't think that using old soy sauce would help much. the mold develops on its own... and its killed when introduced into the salt brine. the yeast will naturally ocurr with the addition of wheat flour.
____________________________________________

Umami-Madrid
New Cooking Techniques & Asian Ingredients - In Spanish

#50 takadi

takadi
  • participating member
  • 391 posts

Posted 22 April 2008 - 12:57 PM

Hmm, what's the point of introducing mold if it's killed in the brine? I would have thought that a certain strain would survive in the brine and help the fermentation process

#51 inigoaguirre

inigoaguirre
  • participating member
  • 21 posts
  • Location:madrid

Posted 23 April 2008 - 04:58 AM

Hmm, what's the point of introducing mold if it's killed in the brine? I would have thought that a certain strain would survive in the brine and help the fermentation process

View Post




the purpose of the salt brine is to kill the mold and maintain the enzimes it produced alive and fermenting.

icheck this "recepie" on the book of miso on google books (making traditional japanese shoyzu):

http://books.google....dJ-Go#PPA184,M1
____________________________________________

Umami-Madrid
New Cooking Techniques & Asian Ingredients - In Spanish

#52 jackal10

jackal10
  • participating member
  • 5,036 posts

Posted 11 June 2008 - 12:59 AM

Do you top up the liquid with brine or water or not at all?
Since these are in open topped containers for aerobic fermentation covered wih a grid or cloth some evaporation is inevitable.

It looks like the biology is that Apergillus is somewhat salt resistant, so the salt and the high summer temperatures select for the right organisms

#53 inigoaguirre

inigoaguirre
  • participating member
  • 21 posts
  • Location:madrid

Posted 11 June 2008 - 01:29 AM

Do you top up the liquid with brine or water or not at all?
Since these are in open topped containers for aerobic fermentation covered wih a grid or cloth some evaporation is inevitable.

It looks like the biology is that Apergillus is somewhat salt resistant, so the salt and the high summer temperatures select for the right organisms

View Post


hi there, yes, when i poured the brine i marked the water level, i add more mineral water and as it evaporates.

i think that the aspergillus is not salt resistant, but the encimes produced by the aspergillus are (only on brines under 30% salt concentration).
____________________________________________

Umami-Madrid
New Cooking Techniques & Asian Ingredients - In Spanish

#54 jackal10

jackal10
  • participating member
  • 5,036 posts

Posted 11 June 2008 - 02:52 AM

Industrialization of Indigenous Fermented Foods, Second Edition

"The second step in the manufactue of fermented soy sauce is brine fermentation. This fermentation is unique in that it utilises halophilic lactic acid bacteria and salt tolerant yeasts. The presence of NaCl in brine (16-19g NaCl/100ml) effectively excludes undesirable microorganisms"

http://books.google....&hl=en#PPA19,M1

Edited by jackal10, 11 June 2008 - 02:52 AM.


#55 jackal10

jackal10
  • participating member
  • 5,036 posts

Posted 11 June 2008 - 01:39 PM

hmm not sure there is enough salt
4oz is say 100g in 4lbs or 1.8l is 5g/100l rather than 16-19g or 20%
Should I add 12*18 = 200g salt? (more like 12oz in 4lbs)

#56 inigoaguirre

inigoaguirre
  • participating member
  • 21 posts
  • Location:madrid

Posted 08 July 2008 - 12:38 AM

hmm not sure there is enough salt
4oz is say 100g in 4lbs or 1.8l is 5g/100l rather than 16-19g or 20%
Should I add 12*18 = 200g salt? (more like 12oz in 4lbs)

View Post


Although the short answer is 16-30% salt to water ratio, this is a kind reply from a person working at Kikkoman Europe re. this very same matter:

Dear Mr. Inigo Aguirre,



First of all, we thank you for your inquiry made to us and your interest in making

soy sauce by your self for educational purpose.


As per your inquiry, I’m happy to reply although this may not be enough

information to you.



It all depends on what kind of soy sauce (salty, light etc.) you intend to make, but

we suggest that you use 30g of salt per 100ml of water to use.


I hope you would find a way to make it successfully.



Best regards,


And this is just an extract from another mail replying to my query on the minimum % of salt that should be used for light salted soy sauce:

For your information, it is recommended that you use at least 15 to 16% of salt against water, otherwise Moromi mash can be decayed.

Edited by inigoaguirre, 08 July 2008 - 12:43 AM.

____________________________________________

Umami-Madrid
New Cooking Techniques & Asian Ingredients - In Spanish

#57 Fugu

Fugu
  • participating member
  • 298 posts

Posted 17 July 2008 - 08:06 AM

Noticed that some soya sauce labels contain some form of caramelized sugars for colouring.

It has been several months since the first posting. Just curious how everyone's aged, finished products compare, in terms of taste and colour, with something like kikkoman's soya sauce.

Great thread.

#58 inigoaguirre

inigoaguirre
  • participating member
  • 21 posts
  • Location:madrid

Posted 11 September 2008 - 08:00 AM

.ddd

Edited by inigoaguirre, 11 September 2008 - 08:01 AM.

____________________________________________

Umami-Madrid
New Cooking Techniques & Asian Ingredients - In Spanish

#59 inigoaguirre

inigoaguirre
  • participating member
  • 21 posts
  • Location:madrid

Posted 12 September 2008 - 04:20 AM

Final process on soy sauce making: filtering and pasteurization

After the long process of fermentation and, for the past 6 months, almost daily stirring the moromi (the fermented mix of soy, flour and brine) while sunning at my terrace, the mash has darkened considerably and seemed a good moment to filter and pasteurize the soy sauce. Its interesting to see how a hotter climate (Spain vs Canada) and 3 extra months fermentation affects the final product, (comparing to that of Canucklehead’s soy sauce) both in terms of aroma and colour.

After filtering through increasingly smaller holes, (first a normal colander, then through a sieve and finally a smaller filter, I have obtained a dark soy sauce, just a tone lighter than the colour of any industrial shoyzu with added brown - reddish tones. (I have obtained only 4’5 litres of soy sauce out of 9 litres of moromi).
You can see here the miso and the filtered soy sauce before pasteurization here:
Posted Image

Posted Image
There are no mayor changes in terms of colour and aroma in the soy sauce before and alter pasteurization. The mayor difference is that before pasteurization it is more difficult to separate the fat from the rest of the liquid. In terms of flavour, the soy sauce has richer and more complex aromas, with notes that remind of a strong miso and ordinary shoyzu. Still, it’s less salty than ordinary shoyzu. I have found no flavours like fermented fish sauce in the process as that of Canucklehead’s.

Posted Image

In order not to kill off aromas through heating, I have pasteurized the sauce for 3 hours at 70º Celsius, which is enough to kill off any harmful bacteria. I have used a device attached to a rice cooker that maintains a precise temperature through time. It is perfect for sous vide cooking, but it has other thousands applications.

While pasteurization the liquid divided into 3:
The fat separated and formed a very thin film on top of the soy sauce
The liquid became clearer
And the solid remaining floated beautifully on the sauce as if it were miso on a soup.

Posted Image
Posted Image

After this process the sauce went through a final filtering process and also had to skim off the fat with a consommé de-fattening jar (the fat floats on the surface and remains in the jar while pouring).
Foto jarra

This are photos of the 2 soy sauces, the first being the unpasteurized one (with small fat granules still floating in the sauce; you might notice that the soy sits in the base of the bowl adapting an irregular shape) and the second pasteurized and skimmed of the soy oil.


Posted Image

And the very final product, the soy sauce bottled and labeled: :)
Posted Image
____________________________________________

Umami-Madrid
New Cooking Techniques & Asian Ingredients - In Spanish

#60 takadi

takadi
  • participating member
  • 391 posts

Posted 20 October 2008 - 08:00 AM

Beautiful!! I would buy that in a heartbeat!


How does your temperature stabilizer thing work btw? What is it called and where can I get one?





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Chinese, Condiments