Jump to content


Welcome to the eG Forums!

These forums are a service of the Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, a 501c3 nonprofit organization dedicated to advancement of the culinary arts. Anyone can read the forums, however if you would like to participate in active discussions please join the Society.

Photo

Ice Cream vs. Gelato vs. Sorbet


  • Please log in to reply
83 replies to this topic

#61 tim

tim
  • participating member
  • 827 posts

Posted 03 June 2007 - 12:26 PM

Hi,

The Donvier ice cream maker is also very effective at making gelato. By turning the crank somewhat slower than normal you add very little air.

The Italian gelato recipes all seem to have egg yolks. Without the yolk, I can't imaging a smooth emulsification at 25 degrees.

edit: The following Italian website does identify cream based and egg based gelatos.

Artisan Italian Gelato Technique

Tim

Edited by tim, 03 June 2007 - 12:37 PM.


#62 paulraphael

paulraphael
  • participating member
  • 2,973 posts

Posted 04 June 2007 - 10:27 AM

The reason why egg yolks are added to ice cream is due to it being cheaper than adding cream. The egg yolks are used to try to create the creaminess and the thickness of using real cream.


Egg yolks serve other purposes in ice cream as well. The lecithin acts an emusifier and a stabilizer. Stabilization isn't important in a tradtional gelateria where the ice cream is made and served the same day. But in an American style ice cream shop, ice cream is flash frozen right out of the machine (in a hardening cabinet) and then stored for up to many days in a regular freezer before being tempered to scooping temperture. Unstabilized ice cream will deflate if it isn't eaten immediately.

Egg yolk is the traditional stabilizer for french style (custard based) ice creams; philly style ice creams have less egg so they typically add bean and seaweed extracts (guar, carob bean, carageenan). In an effort to appear natural and home made, Haagen Dazs uses molecularly altered milk proteins for stabilization (so they don't have to list anything besides cream, milk, sugar, etc. on the ingredients ...)

Edited by paulraphael, 04 June 2007 - 10:28 AM.


#63 merstar

merstar
  • participating member
  • 948 posts

Posted 04 June 2007 - 03:51 PM

In an effort to appear natural and home made, Haagen Dazs uses molecularly altered milk proteins for stabilization (so they don't have to list anything besides cream, milk, sugar, etc. on the ingredients ...)

View Post


Interesting - I didn't know that. I'm glad I make my own ice cream, with one occasional exception: Julie's Organic Blackberry.

By the way, how are your brownie testings/tastings coming along?
There's nothing better than a good friend, except a good friend with CHOCOLATE.

#64 Pallee

Pallee
  • participating member
  • 188 posts

Posted 04 June 2007 - 04:19 PM

Mitch,

Most Italian gelato is made with whole milk providing about 6% butterfat content.  (In Northern Italy they may add some cream)  Gelato is made with up to 10 egg yolks per quart of milk.  Flavor is typically infused into the custard.  The custard is churned slowly to make a highly dense product which is served at about 25 degrees.

Lemon Gelato

3 cups whole milk  (organic is recommended)
Zest from 6 lemons
1/2 vanilla bean split and scraped
8 egg yolks (organic)
pinch salt

1.  Heat milk to 170 degrees. Pour over zest and vanilla bean.  Cool in an ice bath and infuse at least 8 hours in the refrigerator.

2.  Strain into a saucepan, add half the sugar, and bring to 170 degrees.

3.  Whisk the yolks with remaining sugar until color lightens.

4.  Temper the yolks with the hot milk while whisking adding 1/2 cup at a time.

5. When all the milk has been added, cook over low-medium, stirring continuously for 5 minutes or so, until the mix is thick enough to coat the back of a spoon.  It should approach 180 degrees.  (185 degrees will change the flavor)

6.  Stir in a pinch of salt and transfer the pan to an ice water bath.  Cool, stirring occasionally till the custard reaches room temperature.

7.  Strain into a bowl and cover.  Refrigerate overnight.

8.  Transfer to a hand crank ice cream machine and crank slowly.  (An electric ice cream maker tends to churn excess air into the mix.)  When finished place in freezer for two hours.

9.  To serve, check temperature and transfer to refrigerator, if needed to bring the temperature up to 25 degrees.  Serve in very cold glasses.

Have fun,

Tim

View Post


Tim,

I think you left out the quantity for the sugar....Let me guess - 1 1/4 cup?

#65 tim

tim
  • participating member
  • 827 posts

Posted 04 June 2007 - 05:19 PM

Mitch,

Most Italian gelato is made with whole milk providing about 6% butterfat content.  (In Northern Italy they may add some cream)  Gelato is made with up to 10 egg yolks per quart of milk.  Flavor is typically infused into the custard.  The custard is churned slowly to make a highly dense product which is served at about 25 degrees.

Lemon Gelato

3 cups whole milk  (organic is recommended)
Zest from 6 lemons
1/2 vanilla bean split and scraped
8 egg yolks (organic)
pinch salt

1.  Heat milk to 170 degrees. Pour over zest and vanilla bean.  Cool in an ice bath and infuse at least 8 hours in the refrigerator.

2.  Strain into a saucepan, add half the sugar, and bring to 170 degrees.

3.  Whisk the yolks with remaining sugar until color lightens.

4.  Temper the yolks with the hot milk while whisking adding 1/2 cup at a time.

5. When all the milk has been added, cook over low-medium, stirring continuously for 5 minutes or so, until the mix is thick enough to coat the back of a spoon.  It should approach 180 degrees.  (185 degrees will change the flavor)

6.  Stir in a pinch of salt and transfer the pan to an ice water bath.  Cool, stirring occasionally till the custard reaches room temperature.

7.  Strain into a bowl and cover.  Refrigerate overnight.

8.  Transfer to a hand crank ice cream machine and crank slowly.  (An electric ice cream maker tends to churn excess air into the mix.)  When finished place in freezer for two hours.

9.  To serve, check temperature and transfer to refrigerator, if needed to bring the temperature up to 25 degrees.  Serve in very cold glasses.

Have fun,

Tim

View Post


Tim,

I think you left out the quantity for the sugar....Let me guess - 1 1/4 cup?

View Post



How embarrassing. It's 1 1/8 cups sugar.

Tim

#66 paulraphael

paulraphael
  • participating member
  • 2,973 posts

Posted 04 June 2007 - 06:08 PM

Interesting - I didn't know that. I'm glad I make my own ice cream, with one occasional exception: Julie's Organic Blackberry.


i actually first heard that from jerry (of ben and jerry's) when he visited the homemade ice cream shop i used to manage.

By the way, how are your brownie testings/tastings coming along?


i just finished version #7. as soon as the sugar buzz lets up i'll make the next one. this has taken more trial and error than i'd expected, but it's getting close!

#67 ChristopherMichael

ChristopherMichael
  • participating member
  • 132 posts
  • Location:SoCal

Posted 04 June 2007 - 10:04 PM

The reason why egg yolks are added to ice cream is due to it being cheaper than adding cream. The egg yolks are used to try to create the creaminess and the thickness of using real cream.


Egg yolks serve other purposes in ice cream as well. The lecithin acts an emusifier and a stabilizer. Stabilization isn't important in a tradtional gelateria where the ice cream is made and served the same day. But in an American style ice cream shop, ice cream is flash frozen right out of the machine (in a hardening cabinet) and then stored for up to many days in a regular freezer before being tempered to scooping temperture. Unstabilized ice cream will deflate if it isn't eaten immediately.

Egg yolk is the traditional stabilizer for french style (custard based) ice creams; philly style ice creams have less egg so they typically add bean and seaweed extracts (guar, carob bean, carageenan). In an effort to appear natural and home made, Haagen Dazs uses molecularly altered milk proteins for stabilization (so they don't have to list anything besides cream, milk, sugar, etc. on the ingredients ...)

View Post


I will agree with your statement about ice cream, you know what you're talking about or at least a whole hell of a lot more than me about ice cream. My focus was on gelato and I actually said ice cream in that sentence, my bad. You're correct, a traditional gelato shop does make their gelato every single day and has a very very short shelf life. To me, a gelato shop that uses stabilizers are not true gelato makers. I think of gelato as an artisan craft and something that is fresh and handmade without any "store" bought bases or stabilizers. I have eaten at a ton of gelato shops all over and I can always tell who makes it everyday and who doesn't. Anyway, you stated what I was saying about gelato, so I guess I'm done.

#68 slkinsey

slkinsey
  • eGullet Society staff emeritus
  • 11,104 posts
  • Location:New York, New York

Posted 05 June 2007 - 07:26 AM

One of the reasons most recipe books for homemade gelato include eggs is that the equipment is not optimal for making real gelato.

Ice cream/gelato is technology-driven in much the same way as espresso. You can't make espresso without an espresso machine, and you can't make gelato without proper gelato machinery. Similarly, just as the quality of espresso is largely dependent on the quality of the machine, so is gelato dependent on the quality of the machinery. Similarly again, there is a fairly steep entry price point for the machinery required to make acceptable espresso and gelato. And still similarly, in their home country, both of these products are largely a professional's game.

So... if you're going to be making and storing your "gelato" at home with technology in the sub-$1k price range, you're going to have to make nontraditional compromises and adjustments in order to approximate the real thing. paulraphael points out some storage temperature-based reasons for using egg yolks and other stabilizers. I'd also argue that, for the home enthusiast, egg yolks can be a way of getting something similar to the texture, density and mouthfeel of real gelato. If you can slow down the the speed of your home machine and raise the temperature a bit, that's probably a pretty good idea as well. I would also recommend eating it the same day it's made after only limited freezer hardening. A little booze might help in keeping a softer texture.
Samuel Lloyd Kinsey

#69 tim

tim
  • participating member
  • 827 posts

Posted 05 June 2007 - 09:47 AM

Hi,

As best I can determine, most Italian gelato includes a health dose of egg yolks. The only milk based gelato is made in Sicily and cream is added in Northern Italy.


Tim

#70 paulraphael

paulraphael
  • participating member
  • 2,973 posts

Posted 05 June 2007 - 09:58 AM

So... if you're going to be making and storing your "gelato" at home with technology in the sub-$1k price range, you're going to have to make nontraditional compromises ...

View Post


how was gelato made originally? is there an gelato equivalent to the hand-cranked ice cream maker, or is gelato a newer tradition that depends on high tech machines?

and going back to another thread, i'm wondering how you'd do making gelato with liquid nitrogen and a stand mixer. the question is how to control overrun and hardness independently.

#71 ChristopherMichael

ChristopherMichael
  • participating member
  • 132 posts
  • Location:SoCal

Posted 05 June 2007 - 12:47 PM

i'm wondering how you'd do making gelato with liquid nitrogen and a stand mixer.

View Post


I've actually seen this done and it works, which is pretty crazy.

#72 weinoo

weinoo
  • eGullet Society staff emeritus
  • 6,388 posts
  • Location:NYC

Posted 05 June 2007 - 03:18 PM

One of the reasons most recipe books for homemade gelato include eggs is that the equipment is not optimal for making real gelato.

Ice cream/gelato is technology-driven in much the same way as espresso.  You can't make espresso without an espresso machine, and you can't make gelato without proper gelato machinery.  Similarly, just as the quality of espresso is largely dependent on the quality of the machine, so is gelato dependent on the quality of the machinery.  Similarly again, there is a fairly steep entry price point for the machinery required to make acceptable espresso and gelato.  And still similarly, in their home country, both of these products are largely a professional's game.

So... if you're going to be making and storing your "gelato" at home with technology in the sub-$1k price range, you're going to have to make nontraditional compromises and adjustments in order to approximate the real thing.

View Post

Sam,
This makes the most sense to me - I use a Lello Gelato machine which probably ran in the neighborhood of $200. It does a real nice job with sorbets; gelato becomes a bit more problematic but ice cream's taste and texture are great. And storing the finished product in my home freezer at about 5 degrees F certainly isn't adding anything to the finished product!

If I was to buy one of the more expensive "pro" machines, I'd probably have to move out :laugh: ! So, it's decent, yet faux gelato and damn good sorbet and ice cream for us from now on!!
Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"
mweinstein@eGstaff.org
Tasty Travails - My Blog
My eGullet FoodBog - A Tale of Two Boroughs
Was it you baby...or just a Brilliant Disguise?

#73 KrazedMom

KrazedMom
  • participating member
  • 42 posts

Posted 10 June 2007 - 07:35 PM

I saw this recipe that doesn't call for egg yolks, it calls for cornstarch (recipe from epicurious 2003). The recipe calls for whole milk, sugar, 3T corn starch and chocolate to be mixed and brought to a boil, then cooled/chilled and placed in a ice cream maker.

What is everyone's opinion on this? The reviews seem decent. I will make it myself, but was wondering if anyone else has seen something similar. It seems like it would be ideal for those who need to watch fat & cholesterol intake.



EDITED to avoid posting violations...SORRY!

Edited by KrazedMom, 10 June 2007 - 10:22 PM.


#74 merstar

merstar
  • participating member
  • 948 posts

Posted 11 June 2007 - 12:41 AM

If you're referring to this one (you're allowed to post links), it's good, but doesn't really have the texture of gelato:
http://www.epicuriou...ws/views/108521
There's nothing better than a good friend, except a good friend with CHOCOLATE.

#75 KrazedMom

KrazedMom
  • participating member
  • 42 posts

Posted 11 June 2007 - 07:49 AM

If you're referring to this one (you're allowed to post links), it's good, but doesn't  really have the texture of gelato:
http://www.epicuriou...ws/views/108521

View Post


Yes, that's the one. (and thanks for the info)

Not that I'm against the "good" stuff, it's just with 3 kids and a hubby who think nothing of scarfing rather than enjoying, I'd go broke just on ingredients, so I look for simple & less expensive. This recipe looked like a nice alternative to going through a dozen eggs for what would turn out to be 3 bowls of a dessert.

#76 KrazedMom

KrazedMom
  • participating member
  • 42 posts

Posted 11 June 2007 - 07:08 PM

SUCCESS!
I used the above cornstarch recipe with a tweak or two (tweaking rules!!).
To the chocolate mixture I added about 2 tbsp cocoa and about a tsp of vanilla. I have a Cuisinart ice cream maker and let it go for about 30 minutes til it was really thick. It had a great deep chocolate taste and was very rich.

I think I am going to try a vanilla one next and then some deviations with fruit.

#77 merstar

merstar
  • participating member
  • 948 posts

Posted 12 June 2007 - 12:58 AM

Glad it turned out well!
There's nothing better than a good friend, except a good friend with CHOCOLATE.

#78 KrazedMom

KrazedMom
  • participating member
  • 42 posts

Posted 12 June 2007 - 10:42 AM

Glad it turned out well!

View Post



Me too! I'd love to try the egg based one for "an occasion". This one works out well for every day and one batch feeds the troops for one night. I have some cacao nibs from Scharffen-Berger; maybe I'll sneak a batch with those just for me!

#79 begpie

begpie
  • participating member
  • 53 posts

Posted 23 October 2007 - 04:26 PM

Hi all,whats the difference between a sorbet and icecream,i have seen sorbets with milk in it,i thought sorbet was without milk/cream and eggs??

#80 Nathan Kurz

Nathan Kurz
  • participating member
  • 49 posts

Posted 13 November 2007 - 12:39 PM

Hi all,whats the difference between a sorbet and icecream,i have seen sorbets with milk in it,i thought sorbet was without milk/cream and eggs??

View Post


Hi Begpie ---

That's sort of the point of this thread: there is no standard definition. If you read through the posts, you'll find that many people have different interpretations. I'd say that current American usage suggests that a sorbet is non-dairy, and that once you add milk or cream you have some kind of ice cream. Translated European cookbooks seem to have a broader definition of sorbet, one that means something like "without (much) cream or eggs".

Etymologically, sorbet and sherbet are the same word. In the US, sherbet is defined as containing dairy, while sorbet lacks a legal definition. Technically, a sweetened frozen fruit juice dessert is classified by the government as a 'water ice'. I presume that the many things are called sorbets because 'water ice' sounds clunky and unappealing in most parts of America.

Personally, I'm all for expanding the definition of sorbet to include all smooth frozen desserts, whether they have dairy or not. We don't have a good single word to do that in English. Take some lemon juice, sugar, and buttermilk and freeze it --- what should it be called? Calling it ice cream seems silly due to the lack of cream, and doing so commercially would be illegal. Sorbet is the best word I've found, and as it is legally unregulated one can call it that commercially without fear.

#81 tim

tim
  • participating member
  • 827 posts

Posted 13 November 2007 - 01:59 PM

Hi all,whats the difference between a sorbet and icecream,i have seen sorbets with milk in it,i thought sorbet was without milk/cream and eggs??

View Post


Hi Begpie ---

That's sort of the point of this thread: there is no standard definition.

View Post



Actually,

The USDA requires ice cream to have at least a 10% butterfat content. That eliminates sorbet, sherbert, ice milk, frozen yogurt, good gelatos, and low fat "ice cream".

Tim

#82 Nathan Kurz

Nathan Kurz
  • participating member
  • 49 posts

Posted 14 November 2007 - 02:37 PM

Hi all,whats the difference between a sorbet and icecream,i have seen sorbets with milk in it,i thought sorbet was without milk/cream and eggs??

View Post


Hi Begpie ---

That's sort of the point of this thread: there is no standard definition.

View Post



Actually,

The USDA requires ice cream to have at least a 10% butterfat content. That eliminates sorbet, sherbert, ice milk, frozen yogurt, good gelatos, and low fat "ice cream".

Tim

View Post


Good clarification. What I was trying to say is that in America "there is no standard definition [of sorbet]". If you want to call your ice cream a sorbet, you are legally entitled to do so, since sorbet does not have a legal definition here.

But as you say, calling your sorbet an ice cream and then shipping it across state lines is illegal, unless your sorbet happens to meet the USDA requirements for ice cream. For example, here's Oriol Balaguer's recipe titled "Cream Cheese Sorbet":

300 g mineral water
250 g cream cheese, 40% fat
75 g sugar
50 g invert sugar
2 g stabilizer

I haven't checked the numbers carefully, but I think it meets the USDA requirements for ice cream. He (or his translator) chose to call it a sorbet. How do you define sorbet? :smile:

#83 Natho

Natho
  • participating member
  • 120 posts
  • Location:Brisvegas, Australia

Posted 02 December 2007 - 07:53 PM

I make my own icecream but i have absolute disregard for terminology. In my experience, people love to use/eat/talk about gelato because it's way more fashionable or whatever then chugging down some icecream. When i talk to people about icecream they say they prefer gelato and when i ask why and what is the difference they can never give me a reason. I don't care what its called. Its a frozen dessert made from varying amounts of dairy products that tastes awesome and thats all that matters. Proffesional manufacturers aside, if you only want to make one or the other then you are limiting your cooking based on rules that have no meaning. I've had people tell me without ever tasteing my stuff that i should make gelato instead because it's better. I therefore disregard whatever else they have to say because they are obviously an idiot. Just my two cents worth..
"Alternatively, marry a good man or woman, have plenty of children, and train them to do it while you drink a glass of wine and grow a moustache." -Moby Pomerance

#84 Darienne

Darienne
  • participating member
  • 4,642 posts
  • Location:Rolling Hills of Cavan, Ontario

Posted 24 July 2009 - 01:29 PM

SUCCESS!
I used the above cornstarch recipe with a tweak or two (tweaking rules!!).
To the chocolate mixture I added about 2 tbsp cocoa and about a tsp of vanilla. I have a Cuisinart ice cream maker and let it go for about 30 minutes til it was really thick. It had a great deep chocolate taste and was very rich.

I think I am going to try a vanilla one next and then some deviations with fruit.

View Post

This post is two years old but I thought I'd try.

Thank you Krazed Mom for your tweaking. I just made the recipe myself and thought...hmmm :hmmm: this is really lacking something, but I have so little experience that I am not comfortable tweaking some things.

Then huzzah! :rolleyes: I found your post, went back, pulled the mixture out of the fridge, tweaked it up, and yumm! what a difference!

Thank you, mille fois :wub: !
Darienne


learn, learn, learn...

Cheers & Chocolates