323 replies to this topic

[tammylc]

My adventures in PdF making...

So last night I set out to make a batch of blackberry for the supper club I'm hosting this weekend. Got to the end, and did what I (almost) always do - got so distracted by watching the temperature, that I forgot all about adding the acid until after I'd poured it in my frame.

Other times that I've done this, it's set up just fine anyway, so I'm not sure why last night I decided it would be a good idea to scrape it off the silpat and back into the pot, add the acid, and repour, but I did. Needless to say, it had already started to set before I got it into the frames, so it didn't pour well and was all lumpy. Taste was great, though, so I cut it up and brought it into work today.

But I figured I'd better make a second batch for the dinner. This time I put my bowl containing the acid right in the middle of my frame - that way it was impossible for me to forget to add it. Worked like a charm.

Thought I'd post about it just in can anyone else has the same forgetful streak!

[Serj]

I did that one time. I made a huge batch, it looked and smelled awesome- went to clean up and found my citric acid solution sitting on the side of the stove. I scraped off and heated the pate de fruit back up ( to maybe 90C) and it seemed to reverse the pectin a little, it loosened up then I added the acid and recasted it. It came out pretty good. I guess the yellow pectin isn't reversible but doesnt fully activate/seal until the acid is added..

Oops. Making mistakes is the best way to learn right?

[lebowits]

I did that one time. I made a huge batch, it looked and smelled awesome-  went to clean up and found my citric acid solution sitting on the side of the stove. I scraped off and heated the pate de fruit back up ( to maybe 90C) and it seemed to reverse the pectin a little, it loosened up then I added the acid and recasted it. It came out pretty good. I guess the yellow pectin isn't reversible but doesnt fully activate/seal until the acid is added..

Oops. Making mistakes is the best way to learn right?

Interesting little thread regarding the acid. I've noticed in comparing the Boiron formulas (new vs. old) that the old sheets explicitly speak of making the acid solution but the new one only specifies the amount to add with no mention of diluting it into water.

[sote23]

Has anyone worked with a low sugar pectin. Any recommondations? I want to try a pate de fruit with less sugar.

Luis

[Marmalade]

I´ve done about ten batches of PDFs without success here at 9,000 feet in Quito, Ecuador. I am beginning to suspect it´s my sugar-Ecuadorian sugar is very impure and does not always dissolve well. I spent hours making brittles with Ecuadorian sugar before I finally figured out the impurities were causing it to crystallize and not set up right.

We did a batch of mango PDF and it came out perfect-but I didn´t make note of which kind of sugar we used. Colombian sugar is much purer. But there is none available right now! Once some appears in the market again, we´ll go back to the drawing board and see if that works.

If anyone has any chemistry insight into this, and you can help me figure out if my hypothesis is correct, I´d appreciate hearing from you. It´s the only idea I have left. The idea being, undissolved sugar or impure sugar is somehow affecting the PDFs from setting up right. They are always kind of lumpy when I pour them and just never set up firm, despite having cooked some of them to over 75 brix-as high as 78, and adding additional pectin to recipes.

[Marmalade]

Has anyone worked with a low sugar pectin. Any recommondations? I want to try a pate de fruit with less sugar.

Luis

Luis:

I am not a chemist but you might want to try low-ester or amidated pectins, I quote from wikipedia:

With low-ester pectins and amidated pectins less sugar is needed, so that diet products can be made. Pectin can also be used to stabilize acidic protein drinks, such as drinking yogurt, and as a fat substitute in baked goods. Typical levels of pectin used as a food additive are between 0.5 – 1.0% - this is about the same amount of pectin as in fresh fruit.

Here's the link for the full text: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pectin

Hope this helps and let us know if you find the pectin, where you found it, and how the products turn out!

Edited by Marmalade, 12 June 2009 - 02:45 PM.

[tammylc]

Has anyone worked with a low sugar pectin. Any recommondations? I want to try a pate de fruit with less sugar.

Luis

The first time I ever made pdf was from Andrew Garrison Schotts book. Not knowing from pectin, I had no idea what the g-pectin he called for was, and ended up using Pomona's universal pectin, and actually got something that worked. I know the Pomonas can be used for low-sugar jellies, so you could start there. I only used the pectin part, and not the calcium solution that's supposed to be the second part, but strawberries have some calcium on their own.

Discussion about it here: http://forums.egulle...0

[sote23]

Thanks for the suggestions. I will give it a shot and let you know what I find out.
Luis

[mostlylana]

I just got back from the Callebaut advanced and expert courses. The teacher was Derrick Tu Tan Pho. Great teacher. He gets into the 'whys' of everything.

We made 4 recipes of pates de fruits. It was my first exposure to making them. I'm not a fan - I find them too sweet. I asked everyone else in the class what they thought of them. Most people said they wouldn't want to eat much of them - certainly not as tantalizing as ganache. One fella said he would eat them every day of his life - loved them! And then there were a few like me who didn't care for them as they were too sweet.

Getting to what Luis was asking about making them less sweet - I asked the question and was told this was a formula that couldn't be played with. That makes sense as Brix is the ratio of dissolved sugar in water. Nonetheless, I've done some research on the topic and came up with an interesting site with some interesting information.

I just moved and am not ready to start playing in my chocolate room yet. I'm hoping someone else might experiment with this info! To get you interested, here's a quote: "In the end, now have a much cleaner, more vibrant facsimile of a pate de fruit. I'll let you do the math, but remember that the conventional version made with HM pectin (regular apple pectin) has a sugar concentration as high as 80%. Here, it's a fraction of that."

80%!!!!!! No wonder I found it too sweet...

Here's the website (there's pictures!): http://mlaiskonis.ty...roficiency.html

[Jan Stoel]

I've made two pate de fruits recipes and had trouble with the setting of the gel. It was not that they didn't set, it was that they hardened almost immediately after adding (tartaric) acid.

The recipes (Fat Duck) call for yellow pectin, so I use this one 'Genu® Pectin Yellow Type D Slow Set-Z', which should be a slow setter. The problem is that I have a 2 to 3 second window to pour the stuff after I remove it from the heat, it sets extremely fast.

I cook the mix to 107C (don't have a Refractometer). Any ideas why this happens? The funny thing is the texture is good. It is set, but soft. So it is not that I end up with pate de fruits bricks, which could explain the fast setting.

Edited by Jan Stoel, 28 January 2010 - 10:27 AM.

[Kerry Beal]

I've made two pate de fruits recipes and had trouble with the setting of the gel. It was not that they didn't set, it was that they hardened almost immediately after adding (tartaric) acid.

The recipes (Fat Duck) call for yellow pectin, so I use this one 'Genu® Pectin Yellow Type D Slow Set-Z', which should be a slow setter. The problem is that I have a 2 to 3 second window to pour the stuff after I remove it from the heat, it sets extremely fast.

I cook the mix to 107C (don't have a Refractometer). Any ideas why this happens? The funny thing is the texture is good. It is set, but soft. So it is not that I end up with pate de fruits bricks, which could explain the fast setting.

Wow - wonder how fast the quick set would harden. I wonder if it has the acid already in it. Might be worth trying a batch with no tartaric and see how long it takes to set up.

[Jan Stoel]

Pate de fruits with this type of pectin require sugar and acid to set or am I wrong? If you would leave the tartaric out, is what I read, it would not set.

[Kerry Beal]

Pate de fruits with this type of pectin require sugar and acid to set or am I wrong? If you would leave the tartaric out, is what I read, it would not set.

I use apple pectin rather than citrus - but some pectins do come premixed with acid. Can't tell from their description.

[RichardJones]

Pate de fruits with this type of pectin require sugar and acid to set or am I wrong? If you would leave the tartaric out, is what I read, it would not set.

The first time we made pates de fruits at college I was working with a partner which is always conducive to errors. Between us we managed to leave out the Tartaric Acid which we only realized once the jelly was sitting happily in its frame. Neither of us dared to tell chef.

To our great mutual relief the slab did set up all right and guitared fine. The texture might otherwise have been firmer but we still gelled!

I wouldn't rely on this though...

R

[tmriga]

I've never made pate de fruit. Please indulge me, and forgive me, as I have some questions that experienced members may feel are mundane -

Has anyone ever tried to make pate de fruit with coconut milk? If not, would it not work, and why?

Would someone please send me the Boiron chart? I had it in my old computer, which died a year ago. My e-mail is playinwithsugar@aol.com

Would someone recommend a reasonably priced guitar, for home use?

And last - what does a refractometer do, and how do you use it?

Thank all of you so much -

Theresa

[Kerry Beal]

I've never made pate de fruit. Please indulge me, and forgive me, as I have some questions that experienced members may feel are mundane -

Has anyone ever tried to make pate de fruit with coconut milk? If not, would it not work, and why?

Would someone please send me the Boiron chart? I had it in my old computer, which died a year ago. My e-mail is playinwithsugar@aol.com

Would someone recommend a reasonably priced guitar, for home use?

And last - what does a refractometer do, and how do you use it?

Thank all of you so much -

Theresa

Don't see why you couldn't make them with coconut milk - give it a try - it's only sugar! Perhaps the fat might be an issue -but only one way to find out.

The Boiron chart is on it's way to you.

No such thing as a reasonably priced guitar - I've played with some cheese cutters with wire that do a reasonable job though.

A refractometer measures the specific gravity of a liquid - essentially tells you how much of the water has boiled off. There are some reasonably priced ones on e-bay but for home purposes a reliable thermometer will probably be all you need. To use it you put a drop of the liquid on the glass surface, put the lid down on it and hold it up to a light. Looking through the lens you will see a line form - you watch for the line to fall at the number you need.

[tmriga]

Thank you, Kerry.

Please indulge me again. I just read through the chart you sent, and it mentions Brix. What does brix mean?

Theresa

[Kerry Beal]

Thank you, Kerry.

Please indulge me again. I just read through the chart you sent, and it mentions Brix. What does brix mean?

Theresa

It's the measurement the refractometer gives you - reflects the percentage of sugar.

[mkayahara]

Recently made the beet pâte de fruit from the Next Restaurant Paris 1906 e-book. (Not the recipes from the Fat Duck or Noma... how many beet PDF recipes do I have, anyway!?) I had read in the Fat Duck book that when you add enough acid to beet, it starts to taste like blackcurrant, and it was cool to be able to experience that effect while it was cooking. With the citric acid in the recipe, it really did smell like blackcurrant! It definitely comes out tasting like beet, though, especially after a couple of days. Personally, I like it.

[Tri2Cook]

I was trying to remember if I've ever done anything dessert related with beet and, much to my surprise, I don't think I have. If I have, I wasn't excited enough about whatever it was that I can remember doing it. I may have to remedy that situation, those look tasty.

[curls]

Matthew, those beet pâte de fruit look wonderful! Did you pour them into a silicon mould? Please tell me which mould you used.

[FWED]

Hi Curls. I haven't been reading the forum for some time but I thought that I would chime in on the Pate De Fruits. I have been making them for several years now and especially enjoy making them at Christmas time. I use Demarle flexipan molds, or any other molds that catch my fancy and are a small enough portion to be useful and flexible enough. I use molds 1562, 1071, 2265, and 1984. The squares were cut by hand. These are full sheet pan size but can be ordered in the half sheet pan size I think (its been so long since I bought any or looked at their catalog). I have included a photo of some of the ones that I have made. Cheers Fred

[mkayahara]

Matthew, those beet pâte de fruit look wonderful! Did you pour them into a silicon mould? Please tell me which mould you used.

Thanks! Yes, it was a silicone mold. This one, to be precise. I liked how they came out. The recipe suggests transferring the cooked base to a smaller container to portion into the molds, and it worked great.

[curls]

Fred and Matthew thank you both for the information and photos. May try that out the next time that I make pâte de fruit. Will have to buy some molds first!

[dhardy123]

I made 2 batches of PDFs recently and both times they turned out more like jams than jellies. The Apple Pectin I was using was from Matisse. So I went over to Kerry's house to see what I was doing wrong. We made 2 batches of raspberry PDF, 1 using my Matisse apple pectin and 1 using her pectin. Everything else was the same. We were both surprised at the differences. The Matisse pectin resulted again in a jam consistency while the pectin Kerry had produced a perfect PDF. I have included pictures of the PDFs. We were both surprised that there are different types of apple pectin. Beware when making your own PDF!

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[minas6907]

Huh. Neat, thanks for the photo, thats interesting seeing what a contrast the different pectins would produce.

[pastrygirl]

That's interesting. I wonder if there is a way to get the same result with the Matisse, either by using more pectin or cooking it a little longer?

[Kerry Beal]

That's interesting. I wonder if there is a way to get the same result with the Matisse, either by using more pectin or cooking it a little longer?

As soon as you added the pectin to the fruit it got thick right away - I suspect there is acid in the pectin itself. I think more pectin might just make it worse. Interesting thing was it still tested the appropriate brix for each temperature.

[gap]

That is very odd. The Matisse was within useby? If so, I think you must be right Kerry and it must have something additional to the pectin added

[Kerry Beal]

That is very odd. The Matisse was within useby? If so, I think you must be right Kerry and it must have something additional to the pectin added

Yup - still good. I think formulated differently for jam and glazes.