Pan Frying

[jogoode]

Tonight I battered fish -- with a mixture of tumeric, red chili, gram flour, water and lemon juice, a la Monica Bhide and Sudhir Seth's eGCI course -- but when I pan fried, the batter stuck to the bottom of the pan and was thus stripped from the fish. I made enough batter to cover the fish only lightly -- should I have used more batter? I used enough oil to come half way up the sides of my battered fish -- did I use too much, too little?

More generally, are there any tips on pan frying that you experienced folks have come up with? (I'm a novice.) And what do you like to pan fry?

[Episure]

Oil coming up halfway is more than sufficient for shallow frying. Was it hot enough when you slid the fish in? The objective of frying is to coagulate the batter and cook the encapsulated food by inside steaming/heat. If the heat is not high enough then there is oil ingress before the sealing of the batter. And you must give the fish a gentle stir initially to prevent it from sticking.

One way of ensuring that pan frying is less oily is to remove the food at high heat. Switch off the heat once the food is out of the oil and is held against the side of the pan.

What kind of a pan did you use?

[MsMelkor]

I generally find that when the crust has fully formed the fish will release on its own.

[irodguy]

How hot was your oil? What kind of oil did you use and how much. For pan frying you need the oil about half way up the pan.

If you had less then you were basically sautéing not frying.

Also how long did you let the fish set after battering? If you let the battered fish set in the fridge for an hour you will end up with a better end product.

If your pan is hot enough the fish should release once it forms a crust if you are sautéing and if you are pan frying the fish generally should float.

[mike_r]

if you are sauteeing remember hot pan, cold oil. get your pan smokin hot, then add your oil, then your fish. when using thinner pans be careful as you can easily scorch your food. for panfrying see above.

[jogoode]

Thank you all.

I generally find that when the crust has fully formed the fish will release on its own.

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I wasn't patient enough! I checked to see whether the fish was browning by peaking under one piece. The crust came off, and I just assumed I had done something wrong, so I turned them all over.

How hot was your oil?  What kind of oil did you use and how much.  For pan frying you need the oil about half way up the pan. 

If you had less then you were basically sautéing not frying. 

Also how long did you let the fish set after battering?  If you let the battered fish set in the fridge for an hour you will end up with a better end product.

If your pan is hot enough the fish should release once it forms a crust if you are sautéing and if you are pan frying the fish generally should float.

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So much that I failed to consider! My fish was not floating in the vegetable oil, but I had put enough in to come half way up the side of the thin fish (tilapia). The oil started spitting, so I turned the heat down. I also let the battered fish sit for only ten minutes.

if you are sauteeing remember hot pan, cold oil.  get your pan smokin hot, then add your oil, then your fish.  when using thinner pans be careful as you can easily scorch your food.  for panfrying see above.

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Why is this? Does too much heat affect the flavor of the oil?

I'll probably try again within the next few days. Maybe I'll photograph the process...

[irodguy]

You might want to try a high heat sear on a piece of Salmon (skin on, it's the best part!)

Start with the flesh side down put in the fish and shake the pan around. This will keep it from sticking. Don't be to quick to check it.

Then turn if over sear it skin down. The skin crisp up kind of like a pork rind

Sprinkle a little chili oil on it when serving.

[mike_r]

Why is this? Does too much heat affect the flavor of the oil?

too much heat can and will burn your oil; oils have different smoke points, i like grapeseed oil because its smoke point is higher than olive oil and its flavor is not very intrusive. however, i was referring to the tendency of thin-bottomed pans to burn the food, as they do not distribute heat evenly. and do be careful when doing this, as the oil will spit and pop as any moisture on the fish instantly boils. good luck!

[Monica Bhide]

JJ looks like you got some good advice here so I wont say the same thing again!

[slkinsey]

For pan frying you need the oil about half way up the pan.  . . . If you had less then you were basically sautéing not frying. 

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Strictly speaking, this is not actually true. Any time you cook something in a pan with hot fat where you are largely letting the ingredient sit still in the pan, you are "frying." "Sauteing" is when you constantly agitate the pan to keep the ingredients in motion -- not something one normally wants to do with fish.

"Pan frying" is kind of a deceptive term. I prefer the term "shallow frying" which seems to be used only to describe a fried chicken cooking technique that is not deep frying. The way I see it, you have "frying," which is cooking in a fairly limited amount of hot fat, you have "deep frying," which is cooking entirely covered in hot fat, and you have "shallow frying," which is in between the two. Although, if one is going to be entirely precise about it, shallow frying and deep frying are fundamentally different from "regular frying" because they are actually boiling the ingredients in oil.

if you are sauteeing remember hot pan, cold oil.  get your pan smokin hot, then add your oil, then your fish.  when using thinner pans be careful as you can easily scorch your food.  for panfrying see above.

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This is good advice, but one needs to understand that it only applies to sauteing and high heat frying. For moderate heat frying, it is often advisable to bring the pan and the fat up to temperature together because the appearance of the fat will often tell you when it has reached the appropriate temperature (there is also no fear of burning the fat in moderate heat frying). For shallow and deep frying you also want to heat the pan and the fat together since what you care about is the temperature of the fat, not the temperature of the pan (the fat is what does all the cooking in deep/shallow frying). If you heated up a pan, dumped in an inch of cold oil and then attempted to shallow fry, you'd get nothing but a big mess.

JJ: For cooking fish, the best thing to do is get yourself a large high-end nonstick frypan (like Calphalon Commercial Nonstick). You wouldn't use this for shallow frying (i.e., cooking in around an inch of hot fat) but it works great for regular frying.

[Stone]

Why is this? Does too much heat affect the flavor of the oil?

too much heat can and will burn your oil; oils have different smoke points, i like grapeseed oil because its smoke point is higher than olive oil and its flavor is not very intrusive. however, i was referring to the tendency of thin-bottomed pans to burn the food, as they do not distribute heat evenly. and do be careful when doing this, as the oil will spit and pop as any moisture on the fish instantly boils. good luck!

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The main reason for heating up the pan before adding the oil is that as the metal expands, it seals any tiny cracks and crevaces on the surface of the pan that could promote sticking.

[slkinsey]

The main reason for heating up the pan before adding the oil is that as the metal expands, it seals any tiny cracks and crevaces on the surface of the pan that could promote sticking.

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I've read this a number of times, but metalurgists and other scientific types say that it isn't true, that the cracks/pores/etc. don't close as the metal heats up.

[jogoode]

Also how long did you let the fish set after battering?  If you let the battered fish set in the fridge for an hour you will end up with a better end product.

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JJ:  For cooking fish, the best thing to do is get yourself a large high-end nonstick frypan (like Calphalon Commercial Nonstick).  You wouldn't use this for shallow frying (i.e., cooking in around an inch of hot fat) but it works great for regular frying.

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I followed these two pieces of advice: I let the battered fish sit in the fridge for a while and used a non-stick pan. And it worked like a charm! The fish had a crispy, tasty crust. I ate it, oddly, with leftovers: sausage, mashed potatoes and caramelized onions. Thanks!

[wannabechef]

I need some advice for a quick fish-fry - or maybe I mean sear. I'm not sure what I want actually. I'm trying to figure out the best, fastest, and healthies way to cook up a fish filet to throw on top of a salad for a quick and easy after-work dinner.

A while ago I first tried with a Salmon filet - used my Calphalon non-stick pan with a little bit of olive oil. The thing fell apart when I tried to flip it

The next attempt was in my stainless steel pan. I coated the fish with olive oil, salt and pepper. Cooked on med-high heat with a little butter in the pan for a few minutes, and then transfered the whole thing to the broiler to finish it off in the pan. Drizzeled with lemon juice when it came out. That was pretty good but had some sticking problems - esp with the skin. A cook friend of mine recomended using clarified butter instead due to the higher burning point.

So, after reading this thread I picked up some grapeseed oil. How do these different oils/fats affect the final product? is it better to do the whole thing in the pan with flipping, or is utilizing the broiler a good way to go? I continue to have sticking problems whenever I use the stainless pan, but my nonstick can't go in the broiler.

I'm open to any and all suggestions! Including variations on my seasoning, etc.

Thanks!

~WBC

[reesek]

i just did this sunday night with salmon. not sure why your piece fell apart...here's what i did - maybe it will help!

salmon was skin-on filet - wild king (i mention this because the water content of farmed or other wild salmon might differ).

i salted and peppered the flesh part of the fish liberally. heated my pan (a crappy teflon with a heat safe handle.) once the pan was hot (was only able to hold my hand an inch or so from the bottom for a few seconds before i felt lots o heat) added about 2 tsp of grapeseed oil and swirled the pan. the oil gets kind of thin and wavy when it's hot. i placed the salmon in the pan on the oil flesh side down. and turned on the exhaust fan. my fish was very thick (nearly 2 inches) so i had my oven on at 350. after about 2 minutes - i flipped the fish (had not touched it at all until then) the "crust" has well formed after a couple of minutes - leaving a slightly brown crisp top. after about a minute skin-side down, i put it into the oven for another few minutes until it was done.

i'm not crazy for salmon skin, and what i love about this recipe is that when done, the fish slides right off the skin. (but the skin releases easily as well)

in short - lots of heat to sear - cook flesh side first.

edited to add: i love to serve seared salmon over cabbage slaws...toss shredded cabbage with fennel, rice vinegar, olive oil, cilantro, scallions and roasted sesame seeds.

Edited November 16, 2004 by reesek (log)

[wannabechef]

i just did this sunday night with salmon. not sure why your piece fell apart...here's what i did - maybe it will help!

salmon was skin-on filet - wild king (i mention this because the water content of farmed or other wild salmon might differ).

i salted and peppered the flesh part of the fish liberally. heated my pan (a crappy teflon with a heat safe handle.)  once the pan was hot (was only able to hold my hand an inch or so from the bottom for a few seconds before i felt lots o heat) added about 2 tsp of grapeseed oil and swirled the pan. the oil gets kind of thin and wavy when it's hot. i placed the salmon in the pan on the oil flesh side down. and turned on the exhaust fan.  my fish was very thick (nearly 2 inches) so i had my oven on at 350. after about 2 minutes - i flipped the fish (had not touched it at all until then) the "crust" has well formed after a couple of minutes - leaving a slightly brown crisp top. after about a minute skin-side down, i put it into the oven for another few minutes until it was done.

i'm not crazy for salmon skin, and what i love about this recipe is that when done, the fish slides right off the skin. (but the skin releases easily as well)

in short - lots of heat to sear - cook flesh side first.

edited to add: i love to serve seared salmon over cabbage slaws...toss shredded cabbage with fennel, rice vinegar, olive oil, cilantro, scallions and roasted sesame seeds.

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Thanks a lot! I really appreciate the advice! I'm curious, is there a specific reason for starting flesh-side down? I'm going to try this method tonight. I'm not sure if my non-stick calphalon is oven safe. I know its not broiler safe though. I'll have to check.

Edited to add: Whats the consensus as far as coasting the fish before hand with any type of oil? I usually coat it with olive oil, salt and pepper. Is that unecessary?

Edited November 16, 2004 by wannabechef (log)

[slkinsey]

WBC, it's a fact that cooked fish fillets are very delicate. You have to turn them extremely carefully, or they will fall apart. It is especially difficult with larger fish fillets. This is one reason there is such a thing as a fish spatula. If your fillet fell apart on you when you tried to turn it, it is also likely it was a little overcooked anyway.

Nonstick is, IMO, essential to cooking fish fillets unless you want to use a lot of fat. Otherwise you are going to have sticking.

IMO, this is a foolproof method for cooking "crispy skin" fish fillets: preheat a nonstick skillet over medium-high heat for a minute; add small amount of fat, drop in fish fillet skin side down; monitor fish, cooking it on the skin side until it appears to be around 3/4 cooked through; carefully turn fillet over and cook on the flesh side for approximately 30 seconds; slide fish out of pan to waiting dish; serve skin side up. You want to make sure the skin side is really dry before you put it in the pan. Pat if down with a few paper towels and then, just before moving it to the pan, draw the blade of a sharp knife sideways down the length of the skin to remove that last bit of excess moisture.

[rgruby]

I remember one of the tests to potential recruits for Jamie Oliver's restaurant 15 involved cooking a fish fillet (with skin on) in a pan on top of the stove. I remember him advising the recruits to oil the fish only, and NOT the pan. I think the reason was basically that oiling the fan would be excessively smoky - ie there would be a lot of area in the pan not covered by the fish, and that you really only need the oil where the fish is. I seem to recall the pans not being overly large, and they may have been cast iron rather than non-stick, but I'm not entirely sure.

In any event, it seemed to make sense to me at the time, but I tried it a couple of times, ended up with the skin sticking to the pan, and went back to adding oil to the pan and not the fish. (On the show, at least some of the recruits ended up with some ok looking, non stuck to the pan fish.) Anyone have any comments/ opinions/ advice on oiling the fish and not the pan?

Cheers,

Geoff Ruby

[MsMelkor]

Anyone have any comments/ opinions/ advice on oiling the fish and not the pan?

To get a good crust, dry the surface of the fish with paper towels, and add the oil to the pan.

[wannabechef]

Ok, I tried Resek's flesh-side down approach last night with some Chilean Sea Bass filets. Don't know how much it had to do with starting flesh side down, but they came out fantastic. I oiled the pan a bit with some grapeseed oil spray that I found. Let it heat up about a minute and then added the fish. The filets I had were thick and narrow, about 2 inches - so I actually cooked the sides a bit as well to make sure it cooked through. I don't think you can really overcook Chilean sea bass, can you?

Also, i didn't oil the fish at all -only the pan. The only thing I noticed was that I ended up with a bit more oil in the pan than anticpated. I had a lot of smoking at splatter. I think esp with the nonstick, I don't need that much oil. The fish had a nice brown crust on all sides and the skin was nice and crispy. The only seasoning I used was salt, pepper, lemon juice and fresh parsley.

Next time I'm going to try with Salmon. Thanks for all the help.

~WBC

[reesek]

glad it worked!

the main reason i cook my fish flesh side down first is that i'm not crazy about the flavor of the skin. if i cook it skin side down first, i'm paranoid that when i flip it, i'll end up with scales or the taste of the skin on my pristine fish. probably insane, i realize. i do think though that the fish is easier to flip when it's got a crust on the fleshy part.

as far as oil goes - i use the dry fish, hot pan - bit of oil in pan method. and hot fish skin smokes. turn on that fan! if the fish is dry, it shouldn't really splatter.

[Toliver]

...the main reason i cook my fish flesh side down first is that i'm not crazy about the flavor of the skin...

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It also works out that if you start cooking on the flesh side, once you flip it, cook it, then plate it, the skin side will be down on the plate and the "pretty" side will be face up. Yet, another Sara Moulton (from FoodTV) "trick".

[ghostrider]

Great thread.

Will add only that I'm partial to peanut oil for same reasons grapeseed oil was suggested above. I've never tried the grapeseed stuff though.