Sourdough and Adding Commercial Yeast

[weinoo]

Here on this other topic, sourdough breads are discussed in wonderful detail, with tons and tons of great info.

I've posted a number of pix of 100% sourdough breads, along with tales of failures, and some successes along the way. My "mother" is quite healthy, and just takes one feeding to get it all hot and bothered.

And now I have a confession about my latest bread... , the one pictured above.

I actually used a tiny amount of SAF instant yeast - like 1/4 tsp. added when I first mixed the starter, flour and water, and prior to autolyse. Dough had about a two hour rise (folded after an hour) after kneading, followed by the long overnight proof in the refrigerator. And then baked in an enameled cast iron Dutch oven.

And it's one of the best loafs I've managed to produce...nice rise, decent, if not great, holes, light in the hand, great crust, creamy delicious crumb, delicious toasted or not.

I've made some pizza dough using the same tactic (sourdough + a tiny bit of yeast) and my wife thought it was the best one I've yet made. Many commercial bakeries (at least according to the labels on the breads) seem to use a bit of yeast in their sourdough formulas. And it just seems to make my breads so much better and more successful to bake.

So, is this heresy amongst sourdough aficianados?

Are there any breads you bake with both sour and yeast?

And, what the hell is going on with all those bacteria and yeasts and things when you use both?

[jackal10]

Yes its heresy. .

Many commercial so called sourdoughs are made like this. Typically they make a strongly flavoured sourdough sponge, then mix it into a dough with lots of bakers yeast, which then has the short rise and proof times of a yeast bread for conventional processing. What they are making is sourdough flavoured yeast bread, but in your conditions I suspect you are wasting the baker's yeast

C.Cerevisiae, the main component of Baker's yeast is acid sensitive, and is killed over time by the acid in sourdough, but until then gives a quick fizz and competes with the lactobacilli for food, in particular maltose.

Bakers yeast and sourdough cultures have different time/temperature requirements, effectively you either have the conditions for a yeast bread or for a sourdough one. I suspect your 1/4 teaspoon had little effect, and was killed by the acid of the ssourdough over the comparatively long rise and proof.

Edited March 17, 2008 by jackal10 (log)

[weinoo]

Yes its heresy. .

I suspect your 1/4 teaspoon had little effect, and was killed by the acid of the ssourdough over the comparatively long rise and proof.

←

But, if it was my best tasting, looking, feeling bread yet (and it's not like I bake bread on a daily basis), then what is so wrong about "wasting" that 1/4 tsp. of yeast? It had to have some effect on the final product, and it may provide me (and others) with that little psychological boost I need when bread baking.

Reinhart, in The Bread Baker's Aprrentice, discusses spiking the dough with commercial yeast (in a greater quantity than I used), and then goes on to offer sourdough bread recipes such as NY Deli Rye (among others), with a rye sponge starter and instant yeast in the final dough.

As he says,

Many systems use a combination of wild yeast and commercial yeast (called spiking the dough), to create a hybrid loaf that is flavorful but faster rising and not too sour.

The King Arthur Flour All-Purpose Baking Book has a whole section entitled Breads with Levain de Pate: Sourdough Starter and Domestic Yeast, in which they discuss how:

a small amount of yeast is added to the dough at the final stage of mixing...this method, although not a "pure" sourdough, is widely used and the breads...have the attributes of both: the complex flavor and extended keeping quality of sourdough and the greater volume, softer crumb, and speedier production of domestic yeast.

So while it may be heresy to some, I think many other home bakers might take a lesson from this, especially as it seems to ensure greater success. As with a lot of cooking, it's not so much how I get to the final product, it's "Is the final product tasty and worthy of being served and eaten?"

[susanfnp]

it's not so much how I get to the final product, it's "Is the final product tasty and worthy of being served and eaten?"

(I'm coming out of lurkdom to say) I completely agree.

Professor Raymond Calvel says, in The Taste of Bread (p. 41):

[the levain de pate] method has been adopted nearly everywhere in France. ... bread produced using the levain de pate method shows a noticeable loss in vinegar odor, allowing greater presence of the aromas derived from the flour itself. The flavor elements contributed by the action of baker's yeast during the fermentation process are also more apparent, as are those that come from the actual baking of the dough. This type of bread is an agreeable and highly acceptable compromise to the majority of consumers, although the acetic odor is discernable and may even become  excessive in summer. The method also produces breads that are characterized by good keeping qualities.

[weinoo]

it's not so much how I get to the final product, it's "Is the final product tasty and worthy of being served and eaten?"

←

(I'm coming out of lurkdom to say) I completely agree.

Professor Raymond Calvel says, in The Taste of Bread (p. 41):

This type of bread is an agreeable and highly acceptable compromise to the majority of consumers...The method also produces breads that are characterized by good keeping qualities.

←

Thank you, professor (and susanfnp) .

[slkinsey]

I think it's heresy, but still better than commercial yeast alone.

Baking with 100% sourdough, particularly within the constraints of NYC apartment baking and a busy schedule, is challenging. Ordinarily, I find that sourdoughs which have had a full rise and then are retarded overnight have fairly significant gluten degradation by the time it comes to put them in the oven the next day. This degradation is caused by acid, and so gluten degradation and acid flavoring are linked to a certain extent. This is the central challenge of sourdough baking.

I guess my question is whether and to what extent you feel that your hybrid dough had real sourdough character? Given your reported technique and results, I'm guessing it came out more like a conventional commercial yeast bread with some "sourdough character enhancement."

[devlin]

it's not so much how I get to the final product, it's "Is the final product tasty and worthy of being served and eaten?"

(I'm coming out of lurkdom to say) I completely agree.

Professor Raymond Calvel says, in The Taste of Bread (p. 41):

[the levain de pate] method has been adopted nearly everywhere in France. ... bread produced using the levain de pate method shows a noticeable loss in vinegar odor, allowing greater presence of the aromas derived from the flour itself. The flavor elements contributed by the action of baker's yeast during the fermentation process are also more apparent, as are those that come from the actual baking of the dough. This type of bread is an agreeable and highly acceptable compromise to the majority of consumers, although the acetic odor is discernable and may even become  excessive in summer. The method also produces breads that are characterized by good keeping qualities.

←

I'm not qute sure I understand this. But perhaps the quotation here is taken too much out of context and there isn't quite enough information provided to understand completely. In itself, it doesn't really explain the difference between what Calvel is describing and a true sourdough. Maybe I'm missing something.

Anyway, yes, it's standard for many many professional bakers to add a bit of commercial yeast to their sourdoughs, and even more standard, I think, for people who mistrust or are fearful of the sourdough process to use commercial yeast. It's a safeguard, I think, having done it that way myself for awhile. It provides a sort of safety net for not having a really good grasp of how your doughs work.

I think people use it because they don't really know what to expect or how to read their doughs. And so because they want everything to be more or less predictable from the git-go, they use commercial yeast, just to be safe. Otherwise, will the dough made from a sourdough culture really rise? Will it behave properly within the time frame they've learned from working with doughs using commercial yeast? It's all so iffy and loosey goosey, at least while you're learning. So, easier to throw in some commercial yeast, just to be sure.

From my own experience, it's absolutely not the case that a sourdough bread with commercial yeast is more flavorful than a straight sourdough. And in fact, I'd say just the reverse. It may be a case, rather, that one has developed a preference over the years for the particular flavor that commercial yeast yields. I understand that. I used to feel that way as well. I don't today. And in fact I don't really like the flavor of breads with commercial yeast and prefer straight sourdoughs altogether.

At the same time, what you're describing with your own experience may have something to do with your own sourdough culture, its maturity, the way you care for it and so forth. Is it a new culture? Have you used it for long? How often do you refresh it? Those sorts of issues will have a huge influence on the flavor of your sourdough breads.

[weinoo]

I guess my question is whether and to what extent you feel that your hybrid dough had real sourdough character?  Given your reported technique and results, I'm guessing it came out more like a conventional commercial yeast bread with some "sourdough character enhancement."

←

If it's possible, I felt it came out more like a conventional commercial sourdough bread, with some "yeast character enhancement."

[devlin]

I guess my question is whether and to what extent you feel that your hybrid dough had real sourdough character?  Given your reported technique and results, I'm guessing it came out more like a conventional commercial yeast bread with some "sourdough character enhancement."

←

If it's possible, I felt it came out more like a conventional commercial sourdough bread, with some "yeast character enhancement."

←

Can you say a little more about your sourdough culture and how you manage and use it? How do you maintain it? How long have you had it? How often do you feed? And how do you prep for building the dough (do you use a preferment and for what period of time, for example)?

Also, once your final dough is mixed, how do you handle it? What's your general way of handling or letting sit to proof and for how long? That sort of thing....

eta: I understand the desire to use commercial yeast, even in tiny amounts, and I've done it myself (and many of Hamelman's formulas use it, as other well-known bakers who've authored books do). But I really can't stress enough, or I don't think I can without maybe finally sounding pushy, that finally just learning how to use the sourdough alone and doing away with the commercial yeast isn't any more difficult in the long run than using commercial yeast. I finally came to see commercial yeast as a crutch because I was nervous about the natural leavening process and hadn't learned completely how to handle the culture during baking and during the resting periods. Once I figured that out, I threw away my yeast and I've never gone back to it. The rare times I've tried a new bread with commercial yeast, I've really not liked the results or the flavor. It may be an acquired thing, but it also may have something to do with the maturity of your sourdough culture and handling over time.

Edited March 19, 2008 by devlin (log)

[weinoo]

Can you say a little more about your sourdough culture and how you manage and use it? How do you maintain it? How long have you had it? How often do you feed? And how do you prep for building the dough (do you use a preferment and for what period of time, for example)?

←

Sure - I've had this culture

for well over a year. Let's not forget, I'm not a daily bread baker - more like 2 times a week, if all goes well. So, when I'm not baking, I usually feed the starter weekly - take it out of fridge for an hour or so, pour off literally almost all the starter, and feed it 50 - 50 flour and water...let it sit till nice and bubbly, redo the process and then re-refrigerate.

When I prep for building a a dough, I'll take 1/2 pound of above reactivated starter, mix it with 8 oz. of flour and 8 oz. of water, and let it sit for 4 hours or so...then I build the dough - sometimes using all the preferment, sometimes not.

Also, once your final dough is mixed, how do you handle  it? What's your general way of handling or letting sit to proof and for how long? That sort of thing....

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Mix together preferment, flour, water (and most recently, 1/4 tsp. SAF) - let it sit for 30 minutes. Add salt and knead till the dough passes the windowpane test - 10 to 15 minutes. Primary fermentation for 2 - 3 hours (I try to fold the dough at least once). Bench the dough, rest 20 minutes, shape the dough, into the banneton or brotform and then refrigerate overnight.

But I really can't stress enough, or I don't think I can without maybe finally sounding pushy, that finally just learning how to use the sourdough alone and doing away with the commercial yeast isn't any more difficult in the long run than using commercial yeast. I finally came to see commercial yeast as a crutch because I was nervous about the natural leavening process and hadn't learned completely how to handle the culture during baking and during the resting periods. Once I figured that out, I threw away my yeast and I've never gone back to it. The rare times I've tried a new bread with commercial yeast, I've really not liked the results or the flavor. It may be an acquired thing, but it also may have something to do with the maturity of your sourdough culture and handling over time.

←

It's certainly an acquired thing - I mean, in Italy, you rarely, if ever, see sourdough breads - they eat bread with food, and the bread is supposed to be a blank pallette...some breads in Italy are even made with no salt.

And what's wrong with a crutch - would OXO good grips be in business if people, chefs, bartenders, etc. didn't use crutches in cooking? What would chefs do without commercial gelatin - go back to making their own? And stabilizers and various chemicals are used in plenty of professional kitchens - are they all heretics?

If I know I can bake a bread at home that's better than 95% of the bread I can buy, and it is an enjoyable process, and I'm not selling it to anyone as pure, 100% sourdough, why is that a bad thing? And how bad could it be when some of the most influential writers say it's not a bad thing? King Arthur, Reinhart and Calvel, to name a few. And from Nancy Silverton, in Breads From the La Brea Bakery...

But I'm not a purist...I use baker's yeast for a few of my sourdough breads when I need to get a lighter texture.

Horrid!

FWIW, interestingly enough, the bread I baked on Sunday actually smells and tastes more like a "true" sourdough today than it did 2 days ago.

[susanfnp]

(I'm coming out of lurkdom to say) I completely agree.

Professor Raymond Calvel says, in The Taste of Bread (p. 41):

[the levain de pate] method has been adopted nearly everywhere in France. ... bread produced using the levain de pate method shows a noticeable loss in vinegar odor, allowing greater presence of the aromas derived from the flour itself. The flavor elements contributed by the action of baker's yeast during the fermentation process are also more apparent, as are those that come from the actual baking of the dough. This type of bread is an agreeable and highly acceptable compromise to the majority of consumers, although the acetic odor is discernable and may even become  excessive in summer. The method also produces breads that are characterized by good keeping qualities.

←

I'm not qute sure I understand this. But perhaps the quotation here is taken too much out of context and there isn't quite enough information provided to understand completely. In itself, it doesn't really explain the difference between what Calvel is describing and a true sourdough. Maybe I'm missing something.

Anyway, yes, it's standard for many many professional bakers to add a bit of commercial yeast to their sourdoughs, and even more standard, I think, for people who mistrust or are fearful of the sourdough process to use commercial yeast. It's a safeguard, I think, having done it that way myself for awhile. It provides a sort of safety net for not having a really good grasp of how your doughs work.

I think people use it because they don't really know what to expect or how to read their doughs. And so because they want everything to be more or less predictable from the git-go, they use commercial yeast, just to be safe. Otherwise, will the dough made from a sourdough culture really rise? Will it behave properly within the time frame they've learned from working with doughs using commercial yeast? It's all so iffy and loosey goosey, at least while you're learning. So, easier to throw in some commercial yeast, just to be sure.

From my own experience, it's absolutely not the case that a sourdough bread with commercial yeast is more flavorful than a straight sourdough. And in fact, I'd say just the reverse. It may be a case, rather, that one has developed a preference over the years for the particular flavor that commercial yeast yields. I understand that. I used to feel that way as well. I don't today. And in fact I don't really like the flavor of breads with commercial yeast and prefer straight sourdoughs altogether.

At the same time, what you're describing with your own experience may have something to do with your own sourdough culture, its maturity, the way you care for it and so forth. Is it a new culture? Have you used it for long? How often do you refresh it? Those sorts of issues will have a huge influence on the flavor of your sourdough breads.

←

My purpose in quoting this from Calvel was simply to observe that, in his view, the addition of baker's yeast plus levain (sourdough) produces bread that has different qualities from that using levain alone, but that these qualities are not necessarily undesirable, and this is a perfectly acceptable and accepted method.

I must respectfully disagree with your assertion that the addition of baker's yeast is done only by those who do not have a robust culture, or do not understand or are fearful of the sourdough process, or whose palates have not evolved sufficiently to appreciate "pure" sourdough and disdain commercial yeast. (In other words, by those who are somehow less experienced or knowledgeable, or lazier, or who possess less culinary sophistication, than you.)

One hallmark of a truly good baker is an understanding of the range of methods, ingredients, and tools at his/her disposal and how use of each will affect the final product. Sometimes a bread with a strong sourdough flavor is desired, and sometimes one wants something else. Knowing how to achieve a range of results makes one a better baker, in my estimation, than being wedded to one particular method and the resulting breads that fall within a fine but limited range on the flavor spectrum.

Your personal preference for only "true" sourdough is just that: personal preference. (Or perhaps your lack of success in producing flavorful bread with with commercial yeast derives from just "not having a really good grasp of how [those] doughs work" ) Commercial yeasted breads, or hybrid sourdough/yeast breads, are not less flavorful, they just have a different flavor, which may be preferred by some, disliked by others, and loved and appreciated by still others as part of the vast and complex range of flavors that all fall under the rubric of "good bread." If I may again be permitted to quote Calvel (p. 47):

"As to the controversial question of bread obtained by leavening with a levain in comparison to bread made by fermentation with baker's yeast, I would like to affirm that both can achieve an optimal quality level. The first will possess a stronger, sharper taste, with a very slight acid nature. The second will have a finer, more delicate taste, and the aroma and taste elements derived from wheat will have a greater presence. ... if they are made methodically, with all the necessary care, bread from levain is neither better, nor more noble, than bread made from baker's yeast. Whenever the culture of starter sponges and their maintenance are properly carried out, and whenever the stages of alcoholic fermentation are appropriately and correctly observed, both types of bread merit the same respect and the same consideration by their high quality."

[devlin]

My purpose in quoting this from Calvel was simply to observe that, in his view, the addition of baker's yeast plus levain (sourdough) produces bread that has different qualities from that using levain alone, but that these qualities are not necessarily undesirable, and this is a perfectly acceptable and accepted method.

I must respectfully disagree with your assertion that the addition of baker's yeast is done only by those who do not have a robust culture, or do not understand or are fearful of the sourdough process, or whose palates have not evolved sufficiently to appreciate "pure" sourdough and disdain commercial yeast. (In other words, by those who are somehow less experienced or knowledgeable, or lazier, or who possess less culinary sophistication, than you.)

One hallmark of a truly good baker is an understanding of the range of methods, ingredients, and tools at his/her disposal and how use of each will affect the final product. Sometimes a bread with a strong sourdough flavor is desired, and sometimes one wants something else. Knowing how to achieve a range of results makes one a better baker, in my estimation, than being wedded to one particular method and the resulting breads that fall within a fine but limited range on the flavor spectrum.

Your personal preference for only "true" sourdough is just that: personal preference. (Or perhaps your lack of success in producing flavorful bread with with commercial yeast derives from just "not having a really good grasp of how [those] doughs work"  )  Commercial yeasted breads, or hybrid sourdough/yeast breads, are not less flavorful, they just have a different flavor, which may be preferred by some, disliked by others, and loved and appreciated by still others as part of the vast and complex range of flavors that all fall under the rubric of "good bread." If I may again be permitted to quote Calvel (p. 47):

"As to the controversial question of bread obtained by leavening with a levain in comparison to bread made by fermentation with baker's yeast, I would like to affirm that both can achieve an optimal quality level. The first will possess a stronger, sharper taste, with a very slight acid nature. The second will have a finer, more delicate taste, and the aroma and taste elements derived from wheat will have a greater presence. ... if they are made methodically, with all the necessary care, bread from levain is neither better, nor more noble, than bread made from baker's yeast. Whenever the culture of starter sponges and their maintenance are properly carried out, and whenever the stages of alcoholic fermentation are appropriately and correctly observed, both types of bread merit the same respect and the same consideration by their high quality."

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Well golly, pardon me for asking an honest question.

I don't quite get the need for the tone of this response. I asked several questions and noted some observations I've made from engaging in exactly this issue with people over the years. It's really as simple as that.

I have many years experience with bread baking, including breads using commercial yeast. I happen to prefer breads without commercial yeast, and I didn't simply stop making them because I couldn't get a good tasting bread. I'm not sure why you'd even suggest that, except that it sounded as if you simply felt you need to zing me somehow. That's unfortunate.

I also have my own artisan bread business, and I learned how to make all kinds of breads using many methods over several years. I finally decided I prefer a bread that's naturally leavened. I said that, didn't I? Yes, I did say that.... So, anyway.... As I worked with that leaven, refreshing it once and twice daily for some time now, it has become more reliable and has a much richer flavor than it did when I started it. I also know how to use it in ways that yield different flavors and strengths.

I prefer the flavor of a good natural leaven to breads made with commercial yeast. Not just my own, but any bread that uses commercial yeast. I'm hyper sensitive to the flavor of commercial yeast, and I don't like it. Again, not just in breads I make, but breads I get everywhere, and I eat a lot of bread. I didn't call anybody to task for their personal preferences, I simply stated my own in the spirit of the question that generated this thread. I think that's acceptable. Apparently you don't (unless it's your own, I guess, given your response). And, in keeping with the spirit of the question, it seems to me it would surely be acceptable to state a preference, yeah? Not to mention it appears that Calvel is making precisely the same distinction, noting that some people may prefer one thing over another (your own quote, that one will have a slightly more acidic flavor and the other a more delicate one, yeah?). So what's the problem? There's clearly a difference. And there are clearly quite a lot of people who really are anxious about the whole sourdough process and who would like to get some clarification and some instruction about that. I don't see anything wrong with that, and it seemed to me (maybe I was mistaken) that that was the purpose of the original question which generated the thread.

So, sorry if I sound a little pissed in response, and perhaps you simply misunderstood my own response here. My intent in engaging in this particular thread was simply to offer help if it was needed, and to offer my own observations, which, by the way, the original message asked for.

Again, my apologies. But it was my impression that the original question here asked very specifically what people's sensibilities might be regarding using commercial yeast together with a sourdough culture, which is precisely what I rseponded to, and not in a snotty way either, just merely by offering my own observations and trying to get a little clarification by asking questions about the experience of the author of the thread, who, by the way, didn't make that clear from the beginning, which is why I asked.

The Village Bakery

Edited March 20, 2008 by gfron1 (log)

[susanfnp]

I prefer the flavor of a good natural leaven to breads made with commercial yeast. Not just my own, but any bread that uses commercial yeast. I'm hyper sensitive to the flavor of commercial yeast, and I don't like it. Again, not just in breads I make, but breads I get everywhere, and I eat a lot of bread. I didn't call anybody to task for their personal preferences, I simply stated my own in the spirit of the question that generated this thread. I think that's acceptable. Apparently you don't (unless it's your own, I guess, given your response). And, in keeping with the spirit of the question, it seems to me it would surely be acceptable to state a preference, yeah? Not to mention it appears that Calvel is making precisely the same distinction, noting that some people may prefer one thing over another (your own quote, that one will have a slightly more acidic flavor and the other a more delicate one, yeah?). So what's the problem? There's clearly a difference. And there are clearly quite a lot of people who really are anxious about the whole sourdough process and who would like to get some clarification and some instruction about that. I don't see anything wrong with that, and it seemed to me (maybe I was mistaken) that that was the purpose of the original question which generated the thread.

←

The statement “I think people use it because they don’t really know what to expect or how to read their doughs” and the terms “crutch” and “safety net” do not do much to suggest that you see the issue as merely one of preference. Rather, they suggest that those who use commercial yeast just don’t “get it.” Even if it was not your intention to imply this, perhaps you can see in retrospect how your comments could be interpreted in this way by reasonable people? As one who does sometimes consciously choose to use yeast in combination with sourdough for certain reasons (although I am perfectly capable of making a fine straight-up sourdough), I am growing rather weary of this sort of sentiment.

That said, my response was unnecessarily snippy and I apologize.

[weinoo]

devlin - have you checked out my methodology above, and if so, what are your thoughts about the way I try to make some of my bread?

[devlin]

devlin - have you checked out my methodology above, and if so, what are your thoughts about the way I try to make some of my bread?

←

Just wanted to briefly make a note and then come back to respond (I'm on my way out the door and won't be back til late).

First, I'd hope that we can all engage in discussions here without snarkiness and defensiveness. My impression from the original question was that the point was to get some feedback from people who work very concentratatedly (and maybe even almost solely) with sourdoughs, and you were interested in getting our feedback. That's what I'm offering. My feedback, which is based on many years experience with making breads, starting out with several years working only with commercial yeast, and then, because I wasn't satisfied with that, moving on to working almost exclusively with sourdough.

And because it wasn't clear from your original message what sort of experience you have with that, I asked questions and offered my own impressions of a few things. Certainly it wasn't an entire treatise or book-length exploration of the subject, but I'm assuming we all know that's the case. I would never tell a person they are absolutely wrong to do one thing as opposed to another. I would, though, suggest my own preference for a thing, and my impressions of how others approach it. I think it's pretty widely known that sourdough remains a mystery to a lot of people who'd like to know more. And it's also the case that many people here engage in sourdough conversations with the goal of learning more and that they are a little intimidated by the whole process.

I approached your original message in that spirit.

Anyway, I have to run for now.

[Lisa2k]

After reading through this thread, I have to agree with those who prefer a starter bread minus commercial yeast. My reasoning is pretty straight up and simple. I think a starter alone gives you much better flavor and texture. Ever since I got my 4 month old starter going, the taste of commercial yeast breads, and breads that use both, is nowhere near as flavorful to me. I've been severaly spoiled by the complexity of breads made with starter only. I'm not boasting as if this is a good thing, as I'd prefer it if my palate didn't join this 'exclusive' club...not to mention I have to bake at least two loaves a week, which has been quite time consuming! It's no fun taking a chunk of bread from the basket at most restaurants, doughy and hot, and thinking 'eh'.

Having said all that..I still love my starter, and love baking all kinds of breads with it. There's no feeling like the one you get when you've slowly built and babied a bread without the help of anything other than TLC. In other words, I'm not really complaining..as of yet. lol

Edited April 1, 2008 by Lisa2k (log)

[hathor]

Someone upthread mentioned that using a bit of commercial yeast is just another tool in the box, and I'll go along with that.

Maybe the mother feels a little sluggish, maybe the weather is affecting her...who knows, but after handling enough dough, you get a feel for the liveliness of it, you get an instinct.

And Mitch, if you like the bread, you're not selling it to anyone...then be happy. You've found a technique that produces results that you like.

Bread flavor is very subjective, and although I appreciate and generally adhere to the purist point of view, I do indulge in an occasional bit of adulteration.......