The sushi spreadsheet

[Fat Guy]

On Eater and Snack recently, the "sushi spreadsheet" has been revived as a topic of reportage. You can go here to download it. Here's a little more information from Eater, with various links to Wikipedia and such.

The thing that I haven't noticed written about the sushi spreadsheet is how monumentally ill-informed it is. Here, in order, are what the keepers of the sushi spreadsheet would have us believe are the top 20 sushi places in New York:

Jewel Bako

15 East

Sushi Yasuda

Kuruma Zushi

Masa

Upstairs at Bouley Bakery

Blue Ribbon Sushi

Sushi Gari

Tomoe Sushi

Hatsuhana

Sushi-seki

Maki Mono

Bar Masa

Nobu

Morimoto

Riingo

Taka

Tsuki

Bond Street

Hedeh

Yes, Jewel Bako and 15 East are ranked ahead of Sushi Yasuda, Kuruma Zushi and Masa. I'm sorry, but while Jewel Bako can occasionally put out some excellent sushi, it's just not playing on the same field as Yasuda, Kuruma, Masa or even Hatsuhana.

But it gets worse: Bouley Upstairs in the top 20? Tomoe? Give me a break. And not even a mention of Kano Yama, which, if you ask any ten Japanese art dealers for a sushi recommendation, you'll hear about from five of them. The keepers of the spreadsheet get as far as figuring out that Iso was replaced by Koi, but then the trail goes cold and they miss a top-ten, maybe top-five spot.

I can't even figure out some of the comments, for example about number four, Kuruma Zushi, "Very very Expensive. Only go on an expense account. Very good but not top 4." Well, it's number four, so it sort of is top four, isn't it?

The whole effort seems even less reliable than the Zagat survey.

[zEli173]

Yeah, this thing is a joke. Reading through the list I was puzzled that some of the places at the very top ranked as high as they did, then I saw Tomoe and it was clear there is no credibility to this list.

[Todd36]

Bouley Upstairs actually makes good sushi. The rest of the list is highly suspect.

[dabestspooner]

yeah but look at the date of last visit the rankings, its not up to date.

Kanoyama has gone down hill a bit as far as I'm concerned. And I've been going there for 10+ years and was pretty let down on a recent visit.

Bouley has surprisingly amazing sushi

Why is Tomoe, Nobu, and Morimoto there?

[larrylee]

I'm put off by all the "why is Tomoe on here?" griping. Tomoe is great for what it is, a neighborhood sushi joint. Now granted, the shima aji I had at Ushi Wakamaru tonight was far superior to what Tomoe normally offers. However, when I am craving large cuts of certain basic fish, I will make a bee-line for Tomoe at an off-peak hour and happily get my fill.

Good is good. You may turn your nose up at larger cuts of fish but that's like sniffing at the Cafe Bouloud burger for being too high end, or a Corner Bistro burger for being too low-end.

Morimoto, at least when it opened, had very high quality fish, much of it flown in from Tsukiji several times a week. It's a bit of a scene-y place, and admittedly I was not as impressed on my last visit. But the quality was on par with what we ate, unsurprisingly, in Tsukiji.

The mere mention of the sushi spreadsheet being resurrected as an old news item on Eater is, in and of itself, unnecessary here. I'd rather see an update on "The Best: Sushi" thread of places people like.

[Fat Guy]

Nobu also has excellent fish. I often hear people say, "Oh, you don't go to Nobu for sushi," but actually all three Nobu places have some great sushi. Not necessarily the selection you'd get at Yasuda or Kuruma, but what they have is top notch, as are the chefs.

[foodhunter]

Regarding Nobu sushi, does sushi bar vs. table service make any difference? I've only tried sushi at Nobu (Next Door) once, and was frankly a bit underwhelmed. I remember feeling the same way at Jewel Bako the first time I was there (at a table), and then returning another time to sit at the sushi bar. I found the experience, and the quality of the food, completely different the second time around.

[Fat Guy]

That's rule number one of sushi: you have to sit at the sushi bar.

[raji]

At a really good sushi restaurant, you shouldn't have to.... and what if you are 4 people and want to catch up with eachother rather than the sushi chefs? I think it's great to sit at the bar to order omakase or at least a la carte, and especially if you are alone or 2, but a lot of times in NY, I see prime sushi bar real estate wasted by a couple where, usually the female, "doesn't eat raw fish". Also, the best sushi chefs operate with such speed and dexterity that just 2 of them can serve an entire restaurant and not sacrifice quality on the platters going out to the tables. But I think for the type of people who post and read here, I agree with you FG.

As for the list, it's crap. It hasn't been updated since around 2004, but even it WAS 2004, the order is pretty random. The comments make the author look pretty n00b. Well if this draws the riffraff away, all the better.

Nobu has great, Japan-sized sushi, which seems small for NY. I've had really great sashimi there as well. But sushi is not their focus, so sometimes they don't have the turnover that sushi restaurants have and I'd call the top-ten sushi places better...

[Fat Guy]

Maybe we need a whole topic on whether and why it's better to sit at the sushi bar. I think there are several reasons why the sushi bar is better, and they become more compelling as you go up the ladder of quality. In brief, the two major reasons are information and time. Information: you need the direct conduit to the sushi chef in order to get the best stuff; you just don't get that information from a waiter. Time: as soon as a piece of sushi is assembled it's a race against time; nigiri drop down rapidly towards room temperature rather than body temperature; the nori in the maki wrapper gets soggy and rubbery. When you're at the sushi bar, the chef makes a piece of sushi and immediately places it before you. Five minutes later, it's just not as good as if you eat it right away. When you order at a table, you get a platter of sushi. The first pieces placed on the platter can easily be there for 10-15 minutes while the rest of the platter is assembled. It's just not as good. I'll sit at a table at a sushi place if I have to, because once your group size gets above 3 the sushi bar isn't pleasant (though if you can get at the corner of an L-shaped bar you can pull off 4), but I won't invest heavily in sushi that night.

[dabestspooner]

I agree with Raji, a good sushi place will have great sushi regardless of whether or not you sit at the bar or not. Thanks for the Midorizushi recommendation. Coincidently enough, the counter at Chiyoda's sit down restaurant is very similar, the plating, rice texture is very similar too. Theres even aburi sushi on the menu. Its possible the itamae may have worked at Midorizushi.

[Fat Guy]

If the issues are temperature and time, it doesn't matter how good the place is. You're still going to get better sushi at the sushi bar. Even at the best places -- perhaps especially at the best places -- you hear all the time that the table experience is inferior to the sushi bar experience. I send people to Yasuda and if they sit at a table they think it's nothing special, whereas if they sit at the sushi bar they think it's the best they've had. The New York Times even, on the first go-round, suggested Masa should get a different number of stars for table and counter service.

This passage from the recent book "The Zen of Fish" illustrates the time point with respect to maki-sushi:

Crisp nori is a hallmark of a good sushi roll -- at least, in Japan. Traditional sushi rolls -- the ones with nori wrapped around a thin filling of rice and cucumber or tuna -- should be eaten right away, while the nori is still dry and crackly. If a customer is sitting at a table in a restaurant, there's no point in ordering a traditional sushi roll. By the time the waiter delivers it, the nori on the outside will be damp from touching the rice. Traditional thin rolls are supposed to be eaten at the sushi bar, within seconds of leaving the chef's hands.

[raji]

I agree with Raji, a good sushi place will have great sushi regardless of whether or not you sit at the bar or not.  Thanks for the Midorizushi recommendation.  Coincidently enough, the counter at Chiyoda's sit down restaurant is very similar, the plating, rice texture is very similar too.  Theres even aburi sushi on the menu. Its possible the itamae may have worked at Midorizushi.

←

You mean the Chiyoda next to Cafe Zaiya?

Aburi sushi isn't that uncommon, it's just a matter of the sushi bar owning a blowtorch...

You went to Midorizushi in Umegaoka or Shibuya? when did I recommend it to you? sorry if I forgot

[raji]

If the issues are temperature and time, it doesn't matter how good the place is. You're still going to get better sushi at the sushi bar. Even at the best places -- perhaps especially at the best places -- you hear all the time that the table experience is inferior to the sushi bar experience. I send people to Yasuda and if they sit at a table they think it's nothing special, whereas if they sit at the sushi bar they think it's the best they've had. The New York Times even, on the first go-round, suggested Masa should get a different number of stars for table and counter service.

This passage from the recent book "The Zen of Fish" illustrates the time point with respect to maki-sushi:

Crisp nori is a hallmark of a good sushi roll -- at least, in Japan. Traditional sushi rolls -- the ones with nori wrapped around a thin filling of rice and cucumber or tuna -- should be eaten right away, while the nori is still dry and crackly. If a customer is sitting at a table in a restaurant, there's no point in ordering a traditional sushi roll. By the time the waiter delivers it, the nori on the outside will be damp from touching the rice. Traditional thin rolls are supposed to be eaten at the sushi bar, within seconds of leaving the chef's hands.

←

I've got to get around to reading that book, but from the information I've been presented from it, it's more about American sushi, especially as he trained at the LA sushi academy.. and that is to say that the number of authentic, step-into-Tokyo places has increased fourfold in NYC in the past 5 years or so (which I attribute to smartasses like myself spreading the gospel and increasing demand, because the population of Japanese nationals has certainly not increased fourfold) , where you won't find California and Spicy Tuna rolls on the menu, so I don't call these places American sushi restaurants... nor would you find a sushi chef at the authentic places younger than perhaps his mid-thirties and more likely in their fifties, as you are really supposed to apprentice a long time before taking the reigns of a sushi bar.

Which is also to say that I still say the rice and fish and vegetables are moreso the hallmark of a good sushi roll, crisp nori should just be a nonissue. A good sushi bar with their s*** together, for table orders, you'll hear the sushi chefs summon a waitress and the roll will be delivered at a semi-jog, so you are talking about a different of 10 or 20 seconds... the negitoro will live

I think this debate is more of a matter of ordering moreso than the huge sacrifice of sitting at a table.

For many, the only true way to eat sushi is omakase and that can only be accomplished at the bar in front of a master sushi chef, so that will never go down at a table. At a table you have to rely on yourself while at the bar you can rely on the chef, and there is probably where my opinion is really skewed... I'm pretty familiar with most types of fish they'll get over here, know what's good and in season, and can put in a really well-informed and balanced order, so much so that i'm always asked to order for everyone no matter the company. I'm NOT tooting my own horn, just saying that plopping down at the bar makes a bigger difference if you're relying more on the chef's knowledge. At the end of the day, of course I always prefer sitting at the bar because only the chef knows the relative quality of what he's got as well as stuff that might not show up on the menu, and moreso because I like getting to know the chef, it's very interesting once you've dealt with sushi chefs with different regions across Japan - one from Kyushu might have very different tastes and specialities than one from Sendai.

Anyway, obviously the true connoisseur must sit at the bar, but it's possible to order smart from a table. Try ordering in rounds than all at once. Don't get so many rolls, that's a uniquely American thing anyway, maki rolls are ordered here faaaaaaaar more than Japan. Try ordering temaki which should be delivered in a little wooden stand. And if you're stuck at a table and your waitress is snoozing on your order, find another sushi bar! This is all of course if you are stuck at a table, but many situations demand it, and the family dinner is a much different experience than the big-ticket omakase, isn't it?

One thing that rubs me the wrong way is the foreign press's obsession with Tsukiji and tuna auctions and that one particular Tsukiji sushiko that every foreigner MUST go to... the trends of modern Japan are completely ignored.

Yes there are many 12-seat sushi bars all over Japan, but the customers who can spend $120 on an expense account have dwindled; Japan has been in a controlled recession for over 15 years now. I've had the full gamut of experiences going over there, from the full expensed junket to just barely getting by, but most "normal" Japanese can't afford more than $50 perhaps, even on a Friday night. And the cities have seemingly trended towards larger operations where cost-cutting is possible and several dedicated chefs serve the bar and yes, tables. I sit at the sushi bar far more often in the US than in Japan. That's probably because it's still more of a niche thing here, whereas in Japan, everyone eats sushi, and it's everywhere from the convenience marts and department stores to the conveyor belt and $1-plate shops to the big high-capacity operations to the tiny wallet-busters.

But at the end of the day, the fact that I'm at a table hasn't proved so much a problem because the service is precision and swift....

[dabestspooner]

I agree with Raji, a good sushi place will have great sushi regardless of whether or not you sit at the bar or not.  Thanks for the Midorizushi recommendation.  Coincidently enough, the counter at Chiyoda's sit down restaurant is very similar, the plating, rice texture is very similar too.  Theres even aburi sushi on the menu. Its possible the itamae may have worked at Midorizushi.

←

You mean the Chiyoda next to Cafe Zaiya?

Aburi sushi isn't that uncommon, it's just a matter of the sushi bar owning a blowtorch...

You went to Midorizushi in Umegaoka or Shibuya? when did I recommend it to you? sorry if I forgot

←

yeah Chiyoda next to Cafe Zaiya

I know aburiya sushi is pretty common,but you don't see it too often as a set item in NYC.

I went to the one in Shibuya, yeah I know the Umegaoka is better suppositly.

[larrylee]

I think the best eating experience is always had at the bar, but you may have to make compromises if you're with a group. Sitting at the bar is easy with 2 or 3. A group of four or more and conversation becomes difficult.

So as Raji says, I agree that ordering in rounds is definitely a smart choice. When I sit at a new place I might try the omakase, or I might just order several selections of sashimi to see what I like before delving deeper into the rest of the menu (e.g. "Okay, the kanpachi may not be the best thing you have today, but dammit, I have a craving for it anyway").

Incidentally, in my mind there are few culinary experiences more enjoyable than receiving a freshly rolled temaki from across the bar. Warm rice, crisp nori, cool seafood... woo.

The thing about Tsukiji that I think is not mentioned in the press is that the sushi is very inexpensively priced. Everyone talks about Tokyo being an insanely expensive place to visit... but twelve pieces of jaw dropping sushi for about $36? You'll never find that in New York. And besides, going to Tsukiji is one of those experience-type things, like going to McSorley's.

Chiyoda - I went once to sit down and the service was awful. Besides being rushed out, there were all sorts of inconsistencies on the menu. For example, the set order reads two pieces of toro. Oh, that's two pieces of chu-toro, but if they give you o-toro it's one piece. They don't tell you that when you order. The list of grievances went on. It's been over a year since I last went... maybe they've corrected those problems.

I suppose the bar at Chiyoda is the best place on that block of 41st to get sushi, but I'd rather wait for dinner and go elsewhere. But the temaki at Nori Maki is quite nice...

Edited July 12, 2007 by larrylee (log)

[LPShanet]

Back to the topic at hand...the ridiculous spreadsheet. I'd like to point out that it's missing Ushi Wakamaru, which automatically makes it questionable. While people may argue about which are the best four or five, I wouldn't trust anyone's sushi opinion who didn't put UW in at least the top 20. I think many on this board will agree. Also, I'd think Shimizu should be on there somewhere.

[raji]

I think that's irrelevent because the stupid thing hasn't been updated in a few years and Ushiwakamaru and Shimizu only opened in the past couple years.

Had I the time, budget, and desire to eat sushi that often, I think I could do a much better spreadsheet myself

[LPShanet]

I think that's irrelevent because the stupid thing hasn't been updated in a few years and Ushiwakamaru and Shimizu only opened in the past couple years.

Had I the time, budget, and desire to eat sushi that often, I think I could do a much better spreadsheet myself

←

Actually, it seems that it has been updated fairly recently (just not thoroughly), since places like 15 East (which opened only months ago) are on it. By the way, 15 East is quite good, if you sit at the bar, and do things right. As for you doing a much better spreadsheet, I think it's pretty obvious that you could do a much better spreadsheet than that one...even without additional time, budget or desire! If you post yours, I know I'll use it

[raji]

Ah I missed that -

I have an _extensive_ mental checklist, but it's more situational... i'm paying, they're paying, by neighborhood, sushi only, or more of a full dining experience, etc. etc. But, and I'm not referring to yourself, but why would we want to flood all the good places with a bunch of n00bs???

[docsconz]

Ah I missed that -

I have an _extensive_ mental checklist, but it's more situational... i'm paying, they're paying, by neighborhood, sushi only, or more of a full dining experience, etc. etc.  But, and I'm not referring to yourself, but why would we want to flood all the good places with a bunch of n00bs???

←

Come on, Raji, spill it, We're not nOObs!

[Nathan]

somehow I doubt egullet has thousands of noob lurkers

[raji]

Ah I missed that -

I have an _extensive_ mental checklist, but it's more situational... i'm paying, they're paying, by neighborhood, sushi only, or more of a full dining experience, etc. etc.  But, and I'm not referring to yourself, but why would we want to flood all the good places with a bunch of n00bs???

←

Come on, Raji, spill it, We're not nOObs!

←

nono....... HELL no.... I think you've all seen that I post the serious STRAIGHT dope on eGullet. not on Chowhound fer god's sake

But I mean the type of sushi spreadsheet that would be frontpage news on Gothamist...

Send them all to Yama!

Edited July 30, 2007 by raji (log)

[raji]

Ah I missed that -

I have an _extensive_ mental checklist, but it's more situational... i'm paying, they're paying, by neighborhood, sushi only, or more of a full dining experience, etc. etc.  But, and I'm not referring to yourself, but why would we want to flood all the good places with a bunch of n00bs???

←

Come on, Raji, spill it, We're not nOObs!

←

Truth be told, I don't go out for sushi anywhere as often as I should... but it's more like going out for a steak for me, as with most Japanese. I'm in Japan twice a year and I eat it voraciously over there for obvious reasons.

WHEN I do go out, my haunts are Shimizu in Midtown West, Esashi in the East Village, Seki on the UES, Yasuda, Sushiden, or Hatsuhana in Midtown East, and a big ups to Ushiwakamaru west of EV.

Any of those are good for a stellar $20ish sushi lunch, a laidback sushi, sashimi and kitchen order table dinner, and when the budget allows, the full-on omakase blowout. On the odd occasion of a lukewarm date, a decent tempura order will preceded said omakase so I don't feel completely prostituted.

There you go. That's the list. Follow it!!!

[docsconz]

Ah I missed that -

I have an _extensive_ mental checklist, but it's more situational... i'm paying, they're paying, by neighborhood, sushi only, or more of a full dining experience, etc. etc.  But, and I'm not referring to yourself, but why would we want to flood all the good places with a bunch of n00bs???

←

Come on, Raji, spill it, We're not nOObs!

←

Truth be told, I don't go out for sushi anywhere as often as I should... but it's more like going out for a steak for me, as with most Japanese. I'm in Japan twice a year and I eat it voraciously over there for obvious reasons.

WHEN I do go out, my haunts are Shimizu in Midtown West, Esashi in the East Village, Seki on the UES, Yasuda, Sushiden, or Hatsuhana in Midtown East, and a big ups to Ushiwakamaru west of EV.

Any of those are good for a stellar $20ish sushi lunch, a laidback sushi, sashimi and kitchen order table dinner, and when the budget allows, the full-on omakase blowout. On the odd occasion of a lukewarm date, a decent tempura order will preceded said omakase so I don't feel completely prostituted.

There you go. That's the list. Follow it!!!

←

Looks good. Thanks for sharing it!