[BryanZ]

And just to chime in. I enjoy the food at MSB more than that of many of the four stars. Is the food and experience objectively better at Daniel or Per Se? Most certainly, yes. Divorcing the food from their respective settings, however, I'd probably rather eat at MSB, even when one doesn't take price into account.

[zEli173]

Umm ... what Fat Guy said.

Although I'd add (and I think this is was already implied by FG) that the further advantage of the no star environment is that it gives David Chang the freedom to take risks that a four star place couldn't afford to (and which often result in great success, but do sometimes fail) as well as a license to serve some dishes that he doesn't care to refine to four star caliber.

[Nathan]

oakapple, on Dec 29 2007, 08:02 AM, said:

Nathan, on Dec 28 2007, 07:30 AM, said:

best restaurant to open in NY in three years.  imho.

It's important not to confuse "best" with "most innovative". Ssäm Bar is definitely the most innovative restaurant of the last three years, or indeed, quite possibly the last ten. But because no one else has served two-star food in a zero-star environment, Chang's food seems better than it is. If the identical concept were moved into a real restaurant setting—thereby eliminating most of what makes Ssäm Bar unique—everyone would realize that it is simply a decent two-star restaurant.

with all respect, that's ridiculous. according to your blog, you've had exactly two dishes there (neither of which were among the best 50% of the menu, and one of which was only on the menu briefly)...the food is much, much better than that.

[oakapple]

Nathan, on Dec 29 2007, 02:01 PM, said:

with all respect, that's ridiculous.  according to your blog, you've had exactly two dishes there (neither of which were among the best 50% of the menu, and one of which was only on the menu briefly)...the food is much, much better than that.

Actually, I've dined there twice. One of those visits was the one you mentioned; the other, I was with someone else, and we ordered 5-6 things between us, which we shared. So no, I'm not basing my opinion on "exactly two dishes." And I'm not saying the place is bad, either: two stars means "very good". I'm just not totally smitten, the way some people are.

Having said that, restaurants are judged every day by their entire menu, not merely the best 50% of it. I mean, it's not as if I went into Peter Luger and ordered the salmon.

This post has been edited by oakapple: 30 December 2007 - 02:46 AM

[Daniel]

Of the six things you ordered on a previous visit, you ordered pickled vegetables, raw oysters, and a ham plate.. Of those three things, two were not prepared by the restaurant.. You then finished the meal off brussels sprouts, hangar steak and a "barely touched" seafood stew that you use your friends opinion to recount as if you didnt try it..

I have no dog in this fight and am not so star oriented or really care where Momofuku places with other restaurants.. I am just saying, I dont think you have been to Momofuku enough, or ordered properly to make an educated opinion..

Though it looks from your site you only visit places once or twice and do limited ordering at the places you are reviewing..

I disagree with how you have put several restaurants of differing quality under the same star but, thats also just my opinion..

Nice website!

This post has been edited by Daniel: 30 December 2007 - 07:00 AM

[oakapple]

Daniel, on Dec 30 2007, 07:00 AM, said:

I don't think you have been to Momofuku enough, or ordered properly to make an educated opinion.

Yes, but most consumers do indeed form an opinion—educated or otherwise—after one visit to a restaurant. You could easily browse this site, and find thousands of posts written after one visit. There are probably dozens on this thread alone. No restaurant can expect that all of its patrons will pay multiple visits and try the whole menu before they tell their friends what they thought about it.

Quote

Though it looks from your site you only visit places once or twice and do limited ordering at the places you are reviewing.

Like most food bloggers (and eGullet Society posters), I am writing about my dining experiences. And I dine out, not as a job, but for fun. Like most consumers, I visit restaurants that interest me, and "order normally".

Indeed, I probably wouldn't have bothered with a second visit to Ssäm Bar, but for the levels of ecstasy in this discussion. I wondered, "Did I miss something?" My second trip left me with the same opinion: pretty good, but not orgasm-inducing. Although it is rather inconvenient for me to get there, I will probably pay a third visit at some point, if only because I cannot believe the comments here could be utterly without foundation, even if, to date, I haven't seen the merits in it that others have.

What I find remarkable is that I am being criticized, not because I think Momofuku Ssäm Bar is bad, but merely because I find it "only" very good.

This post has been edited by oakapple: 30 December 2007 - 10:48 AM

[docsconz]

I agree, Marc. I also was less than thrilled with MSB when I went, but because of the continued raves of people whose opinions I value, I will likely return at some point even though I otherwise wouldn't based on my experience there. I also didn't think the food was bad. I just did not find it revelatory like so many here have and did not like the trappings that went along with it. Had the prices been in line with those trappings, I might have thought more highly of the place in terms of value, but they weren't.

[Nathan]

that new squid and shrimp stew is kind of boring.

all the ingredients are good, it's just not very interesting. kind of like a moqueca. for this genre, I find myself preferring something like the Thai tom kha...where the mellowness of the coconut milk is balanced with the assertive snap of galangal.

[spaetzle_maker]

Nathan, on Dec 31 2007, 01:23 PM, said:

that new squid and shrimp stew is kind of boring.

all the ingredients are good, it's just not very interesting.  kind of like a moqueca.  for this genre, I find myself preferring something like the Thai tom kha...where the mellowness of the coconut milk is balanced with the assertive snap of galangal.

Nathan, there is galangal in the shrimp and squid stew.

[Nathan]

not enough to notice then....

[BryanZ]

Meal with friends at MSB tonight. Quoted an hour to hour and one-half wait but were seated in about 40 minutes because one party didn't show. I've been having good luck with wait times there of late.

Ordered buns, chicken ballotine, brussels, mussel and clam stew, hangar ssam, and pork belly ssam. Weaker spots were the ballotine and stew, though they weren't unenjoyable by any means. I found the ballotine perhaps a bit bland and the stew a bit unbalanced. I tasted a distinct fermented note that could've come from either the kimchee or something like Chinese rice wine. Both dishes were tasty, just not as great as the others. Everything else was pretty awesome, and the pork belly ssam completely out of control delicious. Seriously, a nearly perfect dish bite when everything is all wrapped up.

ETA: Also tried toe hazelnut torte with honey and grapefruit. Better than it should be. Somehow the powerfully acidic granita works well with the rich cake.

This post has been edited by BryanZ: 05 January 2008 - 11:45 PM

[The Flame]

I went to MSB on Friday and had a quick meal. I found it to be very good. I had the steamed buns and then the sweetbreads. The pork buns had the pork belly with the sauce and accompaniments inside. The sweetbreads were grilled flat and they came with a lime wedge with salt on it to sprinkle on top and a tiny side of pickled vegetables.

The problem for me is that I find the prices of things very expensive for the amount you get. If it was up to me I would eat there regularly and order a lot because I love the atmosphere and the food, but the price factor is definitely an issue for me.

[Fat Guy]

Oh good, I was hoping we could kick off 2008 with a discussion of price and value at Ssam Bar. I definitely acknowledge that you can go in to Ssam Bar and spend a lot of money for small portions. But I have two further thoughts on the issue:

1. I think the prices of many dishes are high compared to similarly casual restaurants, but quite low compared to restaurants that serve food at that level of quality.

2. You have a lot of control over how much you spend, and on what. You can certainly go in and spend $80+ per person, but you can also get a really strong three-course meal for half that and a first-rate two-course snack for half that again. And I see it all the time: the three people to the left of me at the bar might be having the $75-per-person tasting plus wine, and the guy on my right just comes in for an order of pork buns followed by the saltine ice cream and he drinks water. They all eat really well.

[victornet]

I went last night with a group of 10. We had the bo ssam, 3 pork buns, 2 uni, 2 apple kimchi, 2 brussel sprouts, 2 mushroom salad, and 2 $60.00 bottles of wine (4 were non drinking teenagers). With tip it came to about $55.00 a person, and I think it was terrific value for the money.

We brought a bunch of pork home and certainly everyone was full - though this is indeed a function of which dishes you order.

So I second fat guy's take.

[oakapple]

If you want to dine at Momofuku Ssäm Bar, and have the food that is purported to be the best cuisine to have debuted in NYC in the last three years, it is not going to be a cheap meal. The only thing you can say in its favor, is that it will be much less than you'd pay at an actual three or four-star restaurant. On the other hand, you will have to put up with considerable inconvenience, namely, the other amenities that make three and four-star restaurants cost what they do. I think most diners, if they have the choice, prefer to have those amenities, or at least a subset of them, which is why you haven't seen a dozen more Momofuku Ssäm Bar clones popping up all over town.

This post has been edited by oakapple: 06 January 2008 - 10:16 AM

[Fat Guy]

I don't think it's entirely possible to generalize that way. I'm not looking at the most recent menu, but based on a couple of older ones it seems the acclaimed dishes are all over the map. Things like the fried cauliflower, all the country hams, the apple-and-bacon salad, and the famous pork buns and pickles are all about $9-$11. Then there are several acclaimed items in the mid teens, such as the uni and the hamachi (both $16 on the menu I have handy, which may be out of date). And then there's a lot of stuff at $19 and up -- way up. It just depends. But it's not that all the most delicious stuff is expensive. Several of the best dishes are priced quite low.

[BryanZ]

victornet, on Jan 6 2008, 01:13 PM, said:

I went last night with a group of 10. We had the bo ssam, 3 pork buns, 2 uni, 2 apple kimchi, 2 brussel sprouts, 2 mushroom salad, and 2 $60.00 bottles of wine (4 were non drinking teenagers). With tip it came to about $55.00 a person, and I think it was terrific value for the money.

We brought a bunch of pork home and certainly everyone was full - though this is indeed a function of which dishes you order.

So I second fat guy's take.

Saw your party. Looked like you were having a great time.

The seafood stew I had last night was quite large for the $18 or so it is. That with bread and butter is easily a hearty meal in it self. Personally we spent $50/person which is pretty much par for the course for a solid meal there with one drink or so each.

[Nathan]

I'd say my average check (with wine/beer, tax and tip) has been in the $40-80 range. Really hard to complain about that.

[oakapple]

Nathan, on Jan 6 2008, 03:17 PM, said:

I'd say my average check (with wine/beer, tax and tip) has been in the $40-80 range.  Really hard to complain about that.

It's not so much a matter of complaining as acknowledging it for what it is. That's also a pretty wide range. These days, $40 is perhaps one step above the "cheap eats" category, whereas $80 is trending towards "expensive" (not quite touching it).

[Nathan]

that range is mostly due to alcohol cost.


edit: but I agree that food costs at Ssam Bar can vary widely

This post has been edited by Nathan: 06 January 2008 - 03:30 PM

[Fat Guy]

Okay I found an October 2007 menu. For some reason I can't find the most recent one from when I was there in December 2007. Let's look at some of the prices of the dishes I think are the best on the menu:

- The three raw seafood dishes that I think are three of the best dishes in town right now -- hamachi, scallops, uni -- are all $16

- The pork buns are $9 and the seasonal pickles are $10

- All the country hams are $10

- The apple kimchi is $12 and the fried cauliflower is $11

- The grilled mackerel is $15

- The lemongrass pork sausage ssam is $17

There are also some more expensive dishes:

- Pan-fried skate $19

- Hanger steak ssam $21

- Pork spare ribs $25

- The $100 ribeye

- The $180 bo ssam (but of course this is for several people to share)

It seems to me this works out, for the most part, to a lower price point than, say, Balthazar. Admittedly, you're going to get somewhat larger portions at Balthazar. But for food that's at a far lower level of accomplishment. I mean, what's a better value: the amazing apple kimchi at Ssam Bar for $12, or an unremarkable "Balthazar salad" for $14? Etc.

[donbert]

If you want to talk about price/value check out what they're doing for the super bowl:



It's not what I'd order to get a good idea of the depth and breadth what they do at Ssam Bar but for $30 that sounds like a steal. I don't normally watch the super bowl but I may have to have a super bowl party this year...

This post has been edited by donbert: 09 January 2008 - 10:00 PM

[Mayur]

donbert, on Jan 10 2008, 12:20 AM, said:

It's not what I'd order to get a good idea of the depth and breadth what they do at Ssam Bar but for $30 that sounds like a steal. I don't normally watch the super bowl but I may have to have a super bowl party this year...

If you're mixing drinks, I'm there! Bottles of Stagg and absinthe in tow... ;)

[cchen]

anyone know if they're willing to do a bo ssam takeout??

[donbert]

cchen, on Jan 10 2008, 12:09 AM, said:

anyone know if they're willing to do a bo ssam takeout??

Yes they are, they started that a month or so ago. We got 5 for new years at PDT. Still eating Bo Ssam leftovers...

[cchen]

I'm a little bit disappointed with MSB. Called them today to inquire about getting the bo ssam for takeout. Apparently, they've increased the price again, this time to $200? Can anyone confirm? Then, (this is what shocked me) the person on the phone told me that they would have to charge $250 if I wanted the bo ssam to go (which does not include oysters). Now, I have no problem paying more if there are increased costs or whatnot but come on, $50 upcharge for no apparent reason at all?? They're making more money (and have less hassle) for takeout than if I brought my party to dine in.

[donbert]

cchen, on Jan 10 2008, 07:04 PM, said:

... Now, I have no problem paying more if there are increased costs or whatnot but come on, $50 upcharge for no apparent reason at all?? They're making more money (and have less hassle) for takeout than if I brought my party to dine in.

I doubt that they increased the price for no reason. First of all the take out Bo Ssam is a different package than the one done in house (take out oysters is just asking for trouble). I'm not sure what they're including for the $250 price you were quoted but they originally advertised 2 different take out packages a basic (pickles, rice, lettuce, kimchi, and a banana cream pie) and a deluxe with more sides (chicken wings, pork buns, prawns, bean sprouts, apple kimchi and roasted cauliflower in addition to the basic). This also includes disposable plates, flatware, and those mini tongs you normally get in house. Secondly given the amount interest in the Bo Ssam I wouldn't be surprised if they had to change their kitchen schedule/workflow to meet the demand.

[spaetzle_maker]

donbert, on Jan 11 2008, 05:34 PM, said:

cchen, on Jan 10 2008, 07:04 PM, said:

... Now, I have no problem paying more if there are increased costs or whatnot but come on, $50 upcharge for no apparent reason at all?? They're making more money (and have less hassle) for takeout than if I brought my party to dine in.

I doubt that they increased the price for no reason. First of all the take out Bo Ssam is a different package than the one done in house (take out oysters is just asking for trouble). I'm not sure what they're including for the $250 price you were quoted but they originally advertised 2 different take out packages a basic (pickles, rice, lettuce, kimchi, and a banana cream pie) and a deluxe with more sides (chicken wings, pork buns, prawns, bean sprouts, apple kimchi and roasted cauliflower in addition to the basic). This also includes disposable plates, flatware, and those mini tongs you normally get in house. Secondly given the amount interest in the Bo Ssam I wouldn't be surprised if they had to change their kitchen schedule/workflow to meet the demand.

Donbert, this sounds about right. I'm vaguely remembering that the takeout/catering options include a lot of additional items from the dinner menu. I believe they are the same extra dishes that are listed in your photo post of the super bowl take out bo ssam menu. That makes the price quote understandable...

[cchen]

Actually, they are not including anything extra. This I confirmed. I asked for the "regular" bo ssam, not the two choices with the prices pp.

[ulterior epicure]

Doing a little recon for pescatarian friends of mine who are asking me for restaurant recommendations. Can anyone help me assemble a list of pescatarian (or vegetarian)-safe dishes at MSB?

The problem is that I suspect that some of the seafood items may involve pork (duck?) fat in some form or another. Thanks!