[oakapple]

juuceman, on Dec 7 2005, 08:03 PM, said:

It's too close to the opening of this place for me to think that this wasn't publicist placed..  combined with the trend of bullfrom and baum et all essentially controlling what appears in the various press pieces and reviews and i'm getting kind of fed up with the current nyc restaurant scene..

There is practically nothing that appears in the Times "lifestyle" sections that doesn't have the helping hand of a publicist somewhere. Where do you think Florence Fabricant gets most of her news? Most of it comes from publicists.

[JohnL]

oakapple, on Dec 8 2005, 08:46 AM, said:

juuceman, on Dec 7 2005, 08:03 PM, said:

It's too close to the opening of this place for me to think that this wasn't publicist placed..  combined with the trend of bullfrom and baum et all essentially controlling what appears in the various press pieces and reviews and i'm getting kind of fed up with the current nyc restaurant scene..

There is practically nothing that appears in the Times "lifestyle" sections that doesn't have the helping hand of a publicist somewhere. Where do you think Florence Fabricant gets most of her news? Most of it comes from publicists.

It is more interesting to look at how varying media outlets handled this story.
(publicist assisted or not).
The same day as the Times piece appeared, the Post ran its story about Del Posto. Steve Cuozzo was much more skeptical/critical--the story in the Post was handled as more of a news item wherein Cuozzo applied a critical eye and attempted to put the opening of Posto into some sort of perspective. (I can't keep from thinking of Del Frisco everytime I see Del Posto--is this a new trend?).
The Post critic attempts to provide some context and perspective--something a good critic must do--how will this restaurant fit into the current scene in NY as a restaurant, as an expensive restaurant and as an Italian restaurant etc.
The Times gives this opening all a good publicist could ask for and more (whether or not, in fact, a Publicist had anything to do with the piece). Clever and cute staged photos --top of a full page in the food section and the kind of oooh and ahhh factor that makes a publicists day.
Bruni spends a lot of time on the Batali "empire" and their success formula. His "context" is limited at best and there is little in the piece that reflects any critical eye applied to the news.
There is nothing in this piece that could not have been written by a good "features" writer.

My point is that the Times is losing "gravitas" . The Del Posto piece is a "puff" piece lent seriousness by the fact that the Times restaurant critic wrote it. As a mention is a "typical" critic's notebook column as a news piece with some brief comments by Bruni this would be fine--but the prominence of the piece yesterday and its very non critical look at the Batali Empire are troubling.
This is not about conflict of interest--all the to do about whether Bruni is recognized etc is IMOP a big fat red herring--rather it is about the Times and how I see the paper as losing its focus and becomming more and more like New York Magazine for eg.
Not that there is anything wrong with New York Magazine--just that there already is one and if one considers what the Times has been over the paper's history..well it is distrubing.

As an interesting contrast--The Post has been making an attempt to become more "serious" the two papers seem to be going in opposite directions. I do not know if the Post will be succesful or not-that remains to be seen--but right now the Times is struggling.

Maybe the upside is--when Bruni actually reviews Del Posto he can focus on what a restaurant critic should write about--he's already covered the decor and the "Batali Empire" stuff.

This post has been edited by JohnL: 08 December 2005 - 08:24 AM

[Nathan]

I didn't quite read it as a "puff piece"...though it was certainly positive in overall tone there were enough negative remarks made about specific Batali restaurants that I don't think it could be read in that way. With that said, I wish that there would have been some sort of comment to the effect that its a little worrisome what might happen to other Batali restaurants with this many veterans moving to Del Posto.

[JohnL]

Nathan, on Dec 8 2005, 10:22 AM, said:

I didn't quite read it as a "puff piece"...though it was certainly positive in overall tone there were enough negative remarks made about specific Batali restaurants that I don't think it could be read in that way.  With that said, I wish that there would have been some sort of comment to the effect that its a little worrisome what might happen to other Batali restaurants with this many veterans moving to Del Posto.

Perhaps "puff piece" is a bit strong.
The Times is treating this news story--"a new restaurant is opening soon."
as a major event.
I am not sure they justified that in the piece which reads in part, like a " pre review" of the restaurant.
Why is Bruni going over (in advance) what he will have to cover in his formal review?
Bruni has addressed the "empire" situation in NYC before--his coverage of the Tourandel empire (notable for some very poor prose) etc. this is an interesting subject or angle and certainly ok for coverage in the paper-even by Bruni but why now? and in this manner?

I still believe that this piece should have been written by someone other than Bruni--he will review the place formally in the future-- and the piece should have run in the magazine.
Bruni would certainly have been able to treat the Del Posto as a news item with some comments in a less prominent position in the paper.

[Bux]

JohnL, on Dec 7 2005, 11:59 AM, said:

. . . .
IMOP-The Times has shifted from a "paper of record" to a more "lifestyle" oriented journal.
It seems to me that they are more interested in becoming "relevent" to their audience than in performing a journalistic service.
Thus, they see no possible blurring of entertainment and journalism here.
It is also IMOP-why their restaurant reviews are focusing more and more on identifying what the current "hip" restaurants are and why, many reviews spend a lot of time on "setting the scene" rather than balancing the traditional--food, service, decor reporting.
That is, they "see" their audience as having a set of priorities and they are, in turn, re- setting their priorities.
A bit of journalistic "pandering" if you will.

ckkgourmet, on Dec 7 2005, 12:17 PM, said:

I don't know if I can entirely agree that Bruni is caught in a conflict of interest here. While I underestand that this gesture towards Batali's DP might be viewed as favoritism, one might also conclude that Bruni is doing an admirable service to the public by informing us about Babbo's progress.  . . . .

I think that's what JohnL said above. Call it a service or call it pandering if you will. Anyone who bends over and drops pants, may be accused of rendering a service.

The issue raised by Lesley is not whether the Times should have run such an article however, it is whether it should have been assigned to Bruni as Sneakeater and Lesley already noted.

After I posted my initial message, I had some after thoughts about the relationship of this sort of article in relation to Diner's Journal. My conclusion was that it was an entirely different kind of article. It was not about first impression of a new restaurant. It was speculation about a yet to open restaurant and a profile piece that's entirely out of character with what reviewers write in their capacity as reviewers. I don't claim that it's a conflict of interest for Bruni to write the article, but it's clear that readers may see it as that. Even readers who don't see it as that will have trouble wondering if his reviews won't be tainted by having written this sort of article. Others will be disturbed to read that perhaps his critical opinion when written isn't as supportive as it appears in this article.

What I said in my earlier post was that I found it to be an unexpected assignment for the restaurant reviewer. That wasn't necessarily meant to be judgmental. My assumption is that Bruni was assigned this article to write, if it was his decision to suggest he write the article or to propose the article in the first place, it may well signal his lack of dedication to being a reviewer. It, on the other hand, it was an editorial decision, than it signals a decision to blur the difference between reviews and articles. I don't know that the best reviews are always written with a reviewer's mentality, but there's a danger when the critical nature of the paper's reviews lose the distinction that separates them from the articles and profiles. Lost so far in this thread, is that over the years, many interim reviews have been written by staff members whose primary job has been to write this sort of article. Then again, my sense of reviews by Marrian Burros and Amanda Hesser is that they have not been my favorite reviews. Perhaps there are better examples of a journalist who's written better reviews alternately with other restaurant news.

[JohnL]

Pan, on Dec 7 2005, 10:57 PM, said:

JohnL, on Dec 7 2005, 11:50 AM, said:

[...]though I am not certain the editor of the Time's Food section is in fact from NY Mag[...]

Aren't you referring to the Sunday New York Times Magazine Section rather than New York Magazine? I've always been under the impression that NYMag is an entirely separate entity from the Times.

Pan--
Yes it is a bit confusing (I am the culprit!).
I believe I read somewhere that the current editor of the Times Food section is from New York Magazine-- not the Times Sunday Magazine section.
I do not even know the person's name -let alone their background.
I am not sure where I read this--or whether or not this is, in fact true, I note it because the NY Times Lifestyles sections seem to be looking more and more like the lifestyles coverage in New York Magazine.
Bruni's reviews also seem to have a bit of the old Gael Greene approach in them.
Maybe this is just me--I would be curious as to what you (and others) think!

[ckkgourmet]

Although I understand the arguments against Bruni's DP anticipatory article, I would suggest that the New York Times, as long as I've been reading it (i.e. the beginning of the Grimes era), has gone out of its way to spot trends and important happenings in NYC dining. I don't remember seeing an article exactly like Bruni's, but Grimes did make it his business to comment on trends, openings, and prospects. I seem to remember that something was written, although I may be confusing publications, about Per Se and Masa before they opened. And I certainly remember that Grimes liked to assess the field on occasion, most notably at the end of his tenure when he was surveying the NYC restaurant scene and the way it had changed during his time as NYTimes critic. And while I realize that Grimes' retrospective wasn't exactly the same as Bruni's prospective review, it shows that the NYTimes critic does consider "trends" and "openings" to be within his traditional purview.

I also realize that the arguments against Bruni's BP piece are largely lodged as ethical protests against what is seen as a promotion piece. They assert that Bruni is helping to promote a restaurant before its opening, and that this article is more appropriately the province of those writers commenting about city happenings. All I am trying to point out here is that Bruni can also be understood as fulfilling his job as critic by "surveying the NYC restaurant scene" and writing about something of particular note happening in that scene that is certainly already haunting the minds of many a gourmand.

For this reason, I do question whether this article can be said to seriously undermine the credibility of the critic. The review was far from being flat-out praise, as was said above. I myself read it as tending towards the skeptical. I also think that we all might be heading too far if we choose to paint the piece as promotion without having any reason to believe that there should be favoritism tinting Bruni's spectacles. We should wait for the review, eat at the restaurant ourselves, and then decide. I, for one, feel that is what Bruni will do.

[docsconz]

I made it in to Del Posto last night as part of the soft opening. I willqualify my following statements by saying that we did not eat in the main dining room or off the main menu. We had "spuntini" in the lounge. I have but one word if some things don't change - disaster. Were it not for some very capable and genuinely warm help from the hostess and our server, the disater would have been complete. Joseph B and I wandered up from Tribeca after a wonderful early dinner at Bouley Upstairs (to be posted separately, but the contrasts in value are extreme) basically to take a look at the new wunderkind restaurant. We were excited, especially when we were allowed in to be able to have something in the lounge.

The location is a bit bizarre considering what many perceive as the owners aspirations for official recognition. While the area is certainly growing and becoming more sophisticated it remains for the moment well of the beaten track and aesthetically unusual for a restaurant of its aspirations. The entrance is somewhat nondescript and situated behind a pay telephone bank blocking the view of the restaurant from across the street. The entrance sits below elevated roads and ramps. They do have valet parking for those inclined to drive there, which may be a good idea as public transportation is not particularly convenient.

Entering, the room itself is cavernous with an outward air of elegance, but basically cold in feeling if not in temperature. Tables are expansive and widely separated. The hostesses are extremely friendly and charming and the interaction we had with them and our server was clearly the best part of this segment of the evening. We had come in just hoping to see the restaurant, but were thrilled with the opportunity to sample it. We were shown to the lounge and seated at a low table near the bar. This is wherre things started to get bizarre. Apparently, in the future in order to secure one of these cocktail tables one will need a reservation specifically for one of them. There is a special menu of snacks or "spuntini" just for that area. The main menu is strictly off-limits there. One cannot have anything to eat at the bar either. The problem with this scenario is that the spuntini menu is outrageous - in a bad way. It is the most overpriced bit of hyperbole that I have ever witnessed in a restaurant. Since we had already had dinner we weren't starving, but our dinner had been a light one and our walk up from Tribeca had allowed us some appetite.

It was difficult to find anything really appealing on this menu, especially for the prices quoted. The dessert menu presented didn't even have prices quoted. We saw arancine there for $21. Arancine are basic Sicilian rustic fare. Joe and I happen to love them, but were certainly curious as tho what could make these so precious. He had to have them and in addition we ordered beef carpaccio along with a glass of Aglianico each. The wines by the glass were somewhat limited and extremely expensive as well as the Aglianico was $18/glass. A bit later, the arancine arrived. There were six small orbs, one central one surrounded by five others on a simple white plate with bechamel underneath the arancine. There was no additional adornment. The arancine were tasty. They were cheesy with a speck of ragu within. For a fraction of the price these would have been enjoyable. At the price chargeed they were obscene.

The carpaccio was no less obscene. This appeared to be hand sliced and pounded top round once again laid out on a plate with a drizzle of olive oil and a little flaked salt on one side of the plate and two small tomato pastey bruschette on the other. While the meat was sliced and pounded well it was not particularly flavorful and would have benefitted by additional salt at least. I am guessing as to the portion size, but this approximately one ounce portion of meat on a plate cost us $22. By far the best part of the dish was the bruschetta.

Although we were unable to order from it (we would have loved to sample a pasta), the main menu appeared more reasonable, although hardly inexpensive. The carte appeared to be entirely classical with little in the way of obvious innovation. To be clear that statement is an observation not a criticism. Given Batali's track record for food at the wonderful Babbo, I have no doubt that the food will be well executed. Though I was disappointed with the carpaccio in my mouth, the arancine at least were delicious. They do have several tasting options including a 10 course "Del Posto Tasting Menu" for $120 that included two or three pasta dishes.

Mario was in evidence in the back of the bar with occasional forays into the dining room to chat with particular patrons. While he was not wearing his trademark shorts, he was wearing blue jeans as well as his orange clogs. Given what he has apparently always stood for with the rustic simplicity and heartiness of his cuisine, I cannot believe that he is not genuinely embarrassed by the over-the-top pretentiousness of this restaurant. In many respects it is the antithesis of everything he has done before and appears to me at least to be blatant pandering to the culinary press. The funny thing to me, is that I cannot see it in its current construction as being anything more than a disaster that will likely put a major blemish on King Mario's midas touch. Now I do realize that the restaurant is not officially open and that many of the criticisms levelled here could change. As one who previously respected Mr. Batali immensely, I sincerely hope they do and the restaurant achieves the greatness aspired to.

[BryanZ]

Interesting report. You didn't happen to get a phone number, did you? I know this has been asked before, but no one has come forward.

[juuceman]

BryanZ, on Dec 9 2005, 01:27 PM, said:

Interesting report.  You didn't happen to get a phone number, did you?  I know this has been asked before, but no one has come forward.

still unlisted, and they weren't giving it up on Wednesday night when i stopped in..

[Sneakeater]

It's interesting that this restaurant is often referred to as a "response to the food press" or an attempt by Batali/Bastionich to secure four NYT stars. Cuz the kind of food they appear to be serving, and the kind of retrograde surroundings they appear to have come up with, seem to be the kind of uncreative deliberate throw-backs that neither the food press nor the Times reviewers particularly values.

I mean, I'll happily go just about anywhere that has a bolito misto cart. But I wouldn't call the self-concious recreation of a favorite traditional dish like that four-star cooking.

This post has been edited by Sneakeater: 09 December 2005 - 11:48 AM

[JosephB]

Excellent report, doc. Yes, the pretension was almost laughable, especially the sign in the bathroom reminding the staff to wash their hands, which was written in Italian! With such attention to detail you'd think they'd remember to fill the TP dispenser, which was empty.

I will note, however, that doc’s estimation of the amount of meat on the carpaccio was grossly understated. There was certainly 4 oz. of beef on the plate.

Notwithstanding my skepticism, I also wish the Batali Empire the best of luck in this new venture.

[rich]

With respect to whether the NY Times Restaurant critic should have authored the DP piece, there is a point no one has made. One post refers to a critic's credibility and that's the key. If a reviewer has credibility than authoring this type of piece could become problematic based on what the future review stated. However, in this case, since the reviewer has no credibility to defend, it's a moot point. No harm, no foul.

I thought it was a mostly positive PR-type piece, well written and has no obvious conflicts since the critic isn't taken seriously.

Another point was made regarding the NY Times losing its "gravitas." This has been going on for years. The Times, once the paper of record, lost its direction years ago - long before the scandals became public. Most industry insiders will say privately the Times doesn't make the top ten list of America's newspapers anymore. That this has filtered down to the Food Section shouldn't come as a surprise. But in defense, the Food and Sports Sections lasted the longest before falling on their respective swords.

[rich]

docsconz, on Dec 9 2005, 10:51 AM, said:

I made it in to Del Posto last night as part of the soft opening.

Hey Doc, do they play hard rock music?

[Sneakeater]

Hey, the infamous article specifically addressed that question!

[rich]

Sneakeater, on Dec 9 2005, 03:18 PM, said:

Hey, the infamous article specifically addressed that question!

I think it says they won't play classical. It doesn't say they won't play hard rock along with jazz and Cole Porter.

[Nathan]

This is getting off-topic so I'll post no more on this topic...but the following statement is either laughable or intended hyperbole:

"Another point was made regarding the NY Times losing its "gravitas." This has been going on for years. The Times, once the paper of record, lost its direction years ago - long before the scandals became public. Most industry insiders will say privately the Times doesn't make the top ten list of America's newspapers anymore."

I'd dare anyone to come up with ten more respected newspapers. For political and international news coverage the Washington Post may now be more respected than the Times. That's about it. For cultural and literary criticism there's no question the Times reigns supreme.
There are no competitors -- the LA Times has its own doldrums. the Toledo Blade has its little investigative niche, the Christian Science Monitor pulls out the occasional international story, etc.
Were you serious when you made that statement?

[Bux]

Nathan, on Dec 9 2005, 04:42 PM, said:

. . . .
I'd dare anyone to come up with ten more respected newspapers.  . . .

In fact, the medium and the other news media are not what they used to be.

[docsconz]

rich, on Dec 9 2005, 03:13 PM, said:

docsconz, on Dec 9 2005, 10:51 AM, said:

I made it in to Del Posto last night as part of the soft opening.

Hey Doc, do they play hard rock music?

When we entered the restaurant there was a piano player playing soft jazz. By the time we left the pianist was long gone and the sound system sounded more like babbo.

Has anyone eaten in the main dining room yet?

[JohnL]

Bux, on Dec 9 2005, 04:56 PM, said:

Nathan, on Dec 9 2005, 04:42 PM, said:

. . . .
I'd dare anyone to come up with ten more respected newspapers.  . . .

In fact, the medium and the other news media are not what they used to be.

FYI--there is a very good piece in the current New Yorker by Ken Auletta--though the focus is on L'Affaire Judy the piece is really about the Times and its problems within the context of the industry.
I agree with Bux.
As for food--the Times, I believe, is more interested in a broader national appeal. The whole food section to me reads like New York Magazine.
It is not so much the writers--most of their roster is solid--I especially like Apple and Sheraton and Asimov, Bittman is good too but rather the tonality and focus which sometimes (too often) tends toward the Food Network.
Bruni --love him of hate him, should not be authoring the kind of piece on Del Posto in question here and reviewing restaurants as well. I believe the fact that he wrote the Del Posto piece (which itself had little weight or insight--it was kind of breathy newsy writing that belongs in the magazine section by another writer) does not help lend Bruni any "gravitas" as a critic and arbitor of good dining in New York-- and conversely, he certainly did not bring any gravitas to the Del Posto piece.
As an example of what could have been--let's say Johnny Apple had written about Del Posto and the Batali/Bastianich empire in the magazine section--I would argue the thing would have had some substantial authority behind it and would have been an informative and more "weighty" piece.
I also noted that the Times article there was a note "asking" readers to visit their website where Bruni leads a 'tour" of Del Posto etc.
I would also argue that the Times is more interested in stuff like this (website) than they are about serious food writing in their Lifestyles sections.--a fact of current life.

[juuceman]

regardless of any of the above, Andrea Strong was given the number and reports it in today's 'Strong Buzz'

212-774-3680..

[BryanZ]

Just called, they're taking reservations a week at a time for now. ie. If you call today you only get reservations for this week. Same thing for next week.

[rich]

So I notice there's a $29 valet parking fee. Does it come with a wax job and interior cleaning? Or do they park the car in a heated stall? Something must be done for that price aside from parking the car in a bus stop.

Hey, you could buy certain cars for less than $29 - at least in the neighborhood where I grew up.

Give me a break - $29 for valet parking. Why not just ask for a blank check for dinner while you're at it.

Be cool Mario, your shorts don't cost that much.

[Sneakeater]

For $29 they probably play WQXR instead of a rock station while they're driving your car around the block.

[rich]

Sneakeater, on Dec 21 2005, 03:28 PM, said:

For $29 they probably play WQXR instead of a rock station while they're driving your car around the block.

Oh, I didn't realize that. Then the $29 is a great value.

[Lesley C]

If Bruni ends up having to pan this place, won't he look like a bit of a dolt for playing it so big before it opened?
I still think it's a conflict of interest -- his interest!

[Jason Perlow]

rich, on Dec 21 2005, 03:21 PM, said:

So I notice there's a $29 valet parking fee. Does it come with a wax job and interior cleaning? Or do they park the car in a heated stall? Something must be done for that price aside from parking the car in a bus stop.

Hey, you could buy certain cars for less than $29 - at least in the neighborhood where I grew up.

Give me a break - $29 for valet parking. Why not just ask for a blank check for dinner while you're at it.

Be cool Mario, your shorts don't cost that much.

I hate to tell you, but $29 is par for the course for parking garages in NYC. As a despised "bridge and tunnel" person I'm actually quite happy that dedicated restaurant parking is avaliable.

In some parts of NYC, its not unusual to pay $40 for parking, sometimes $50. So I think the restaurant is being pretty damn reasonable.

$29 for a whole evening which ensures the safetly of my vehicle is not a big thing for someone like me to swallow.

[oakapple]

Lesley C, on Dec 21 2005, 05:55 PM, said:

If Bruni ends up having to pan this place, won't he look like a bit of a dolt for playing it so big before it opened?
I still think it's a conflict of interest -- his interest!

I thought the Bruni piece was sufficiently balanced to allow him to go either way in the review. He appeared to be pointing out some of the potential hazards, particularly the depth of the menu.

[docsconz]

Jason Perlow, on Dec 21 2005, 08:02 PM, said:

rich, on Dec 21 2005, 03:21 PM, said:

So I notice there's a $29 valet parking fee. Does it come with a wax job and interior cleaning? Or do they park the car in a heated stall? Something must be done for that price aside from parking the car in a bus stop.

Hey, you could buy certain cars for less than $29 - at least in the neighborhood where I grew up.

Give me a break - $29 for valet parking. Why not just ask for a blank check for dinner while you're at it.

Be cool Mario, your shorts don't cost that much.

I hate to tell you, but $29 is par for the course for parking garages in NYC. As a despised "bridge and tunnel" person I'm actually quite happy that dedicated restaurant parking is avaliable.

In some parts of NYC, its not unusual to pay $40 for parking, sometimes $50. So I think the restaurant is being pretty damn reasonable.

$29 for a whole evening which ensures the safetly of my vehicle is not a big thing for someone like me to swallow.

Those other parking garages are independent businesses looking to make a buck independent of anything else. At the prices Del Posto was charging at least as of a couple of weeks ago, parking should be free, I think this is a place designeed for conspicuous consumption and little else. I expect the food to be tasty, but from what I have personally seen the value is way out of whack. This place appears to be a paeon to ego and greed at least from my first impression. I very much hope that this impression is proven wrong, though.

[rich]

Jason Perlow, on Dec 21 2005, 08:02 PM, said:

rich, on Dec 21 2005, 03:21 PM, said:

So I notice there's a $29 valet parking fee. Does it come with a wax job and interior cleaning? Or do they park the car in a heated stall? Something must be done for that price aside from parking the car in a bus stop.

Hey, you could buy certain cars for less than $29 - at least in the neighborhood where I grew up.

Give me a break - $29 for valet parking. Why not just ask for a blank check for dinner while you're at it.

Be cool Mario, your shorts don't cost that much.

I hate to tell you, but $29 is par for the course for parking garages in NYC. As a despised "bridge and tunnel" person I'm actually quite happy that dedicated restaurant parking is avaliable.

In some parts of NYC, its not unusual to pay $40 for parking, sometimes $50. So I think the restaurant is being pretty damn reasonable.

$29 for a whole evening which ensures the safetly of my vehicle is not a big thing for someone like me to swallow.

I couldn't disagree more.

When you park in a garage you're doing business with a company designed for that purpose. If Del Posto wanted to get into the parking business, then Mario et al should have opened a garage instead of a restaurant.

To rip people off for another $35 (with tip) is an insult to the patron who is paying a $300-400 restaurant tab. Would you also be okay with a $20 coat check charge and what about $10 to use the toilet facilities?

I've been going to restaurants for 40+ years and have been driving to them to for almost as long and never have paid a $29 valet parking charge - not even close. And I tip the "parkers" substantially.

I've spent more than $29 in a restaurant for a cocktail, but to pay that number for valet parking is pretentious and arrogant. I would rather pay $110 ticket for parking illegally than to give Del Posto $29 to "valet" my vehicle.

It's truly a shame what wealth and fame can do to someone.