[Grub]

INTRODUCTION

(FYI, this is a continuation of this thread and also this one.)

Man, this is gonna be a lot of work... I apologize for the length of this post, but to do this recipe full justice, I see no other way to handle this, except trying to pass on all the details... If it is a long read, have sympathy with me -- cause it surely will take me more time to type this up, than for you to read it.

Well, if you haven't read the two preceding threads, I've been trying to figure out how cook a popular Indian dish named Vindaloo. In Britain, this is an insanely spicy curry devoured partially due to a drunken machismo after a night in the pub ("Ach bugger all this -- Oi! Ye wankers up fer a Vindy?! Enkerlan, Enkerlan, Enkerlaaaaan!!" Sorry, I digress) but also because it is a really tasty meal. Needless to say, there are differences in authenticity and regions etc., but I won't get into that here.

I never ever thought I'd be able to say this, but I liked the Vindaloo I cooked last night even better than what I ate in my college years in England. And obviously, I've gotta give credit to Waaza for the recipe, as well as all the rest of the information he's offered up in the previous threads. Thanks dude, thanks a bunch!

For reference, you'll find Waaza's recipe in this link. I've typed up my own recipe, formatted according to my own preferences (which I do for most things I cook), but since he asks that we only copy the recipe in its entirety, I won't share mine. Besides, I still wouldn't cook this dish without all the footnotes of Waaza's original recipe, so I strongly suggest you stick to that, if you want to cook this amazing dish.



THE MARINADE

Now then, lets' get on with it...

First off, the spices: whole peppercorns, cumin seeds, coriander seeds, crushed red chili peppers and mustard seeds (clockwise).



The recipe called for 6-10 chilis, and I know what kind of a crowd I cook for, so I went with 10. Normally, I'd be prone to use considerably more, but I have far too much respect for the recipe, and was very determined to follow it as close as I could.

(And by respect, I mean that I had all faith that this recipe would produce a great meal as it was -- but if I had found that I wanted it to be even stronger, I would certainly add more, the next time I cooked it. In this case however, 10 chilis happened to be just perfect for my taste. I've eaten far spicier food than this, but I think it would be a detriment to the taste of this dish, if it was any hotter).

For some reason, I added the star aniseed segment at this point, rather than after the roasting process (along with the garam masala), as the recipe called for. I don't know why I did this -- maybe it was a brainfart, or for some reason, I just made a spur-of-the-moment decision that the aniseed should be roasted too. I don't know if this is a good or a bad idea. Also, I diced the star aniseed up before adding it, which the recipe doesn't mention.

(Waaza, what do you think, should I have roasted the aniseed or not? I did roast it in the previous recipe I used, but I have no idea how aniseed really reacts to roasting, to be honest.)

Star aniseed is extremely potent, and it completely ruined a dish I once made that called for a whole star aniseed, so only using a single segment is the right thing -- it might be possible to use two or three even, because there was no taste of aniseed in the final dish. Of course, Indian food tends to blend all the spices together, as opposed to Thai food.

Okay, I chucked these bad boys in a dry wok (no oil) over medium heat:



This mixture was supposed to be roasted until it started smoking, but after nearly ten minutes and no smoke, I increased the heat to "high." (I use an electric stove, so I think the heat doesn't conduct as well as a gas stove.) I added the cracked fenugreek seeds just as the smoke started, and immediately took the wok off the heat.



This seems to have done the trick. The colors seem to be just about right, although the mustard seeds (I think) are fairly dark, so maybe I made a mistake in increasing the heat after all. It was hard to tell from the aroma, since I used a lot of chilis (in fact, once it started smoking, I put my head directly over the wok and took a deep sniff -- BAD mistake! Whoa, what a rush -- my nostrils felt like the smoke stacks at Chernobyl.)

These spices won't all roast up at the same time, so I don't think there's any other way to do this, other than roasting them individually, which would be pretty damn tedious.

Okay, so I dumped it into the mortar. I'm giving you a wide shot of it here, so you can see what type it is (I think Waaza asked about it in an earlier thread?) -- it's a Thai wok, of the type that Jamie Oliver uses. It's a big one, about 45 lb. but I love it. People tend to shy away from using something this big and heavy but in my opinion, unless you're a gym rat, a tiny bit of manual labor is good for ya.


Besides, this is Kalifoornya, and I don't want the Gubernator to be calling a girlie-man or nuthen. Sorry, I'm delirious. This is hard work.

Here's good stuff all ground up. The plutonium aroma I experienced earlier was gone at this point, and there was just a dark, roasted type of smell to it. I'm not entirely confident if I roasted it too hard or not. But I think I'll try to be more patient the next time.



Next, I added the garlic and ginger. The ginger (right) was frozen (I find it keeps much longer this way) and grated with a micro-plane, which makes it extremely "frizzy" and voluminous, so it looks like there's a LOT more of it, than there really is. The garlic was run through a press (I always prefer to do this, than chopping it, since I figure that chopping it leaves a lot of yummy garlic juice on the cutting board).



The final two ingredients in the marinade were the oil and vinegar. I used a simple rice vinegar.



Here's the pork. The color looks a little weird in this picture -- I tried fiddling with it in Photoshop, but couldn't seem to get it to look right. But I'm sure it didn't look quite like that. By the way, instead of leaving it in the fridge overnight, I used this vacuum box, and marinated it for about three hours (in the fridge). I figure this is every bit as good as a 24-hour soak, because the meat really soaks up the liquid.



Added the marinade. It doesn't completely cover the meat like the recipe calls for, but I think it's okay, since I normally give the box a good shake every hour or so. If it truly is imperative that the marinade should cover the meat, I think more liquid needs to be added -- I don't know if more vinegar should be used, or something else. (Part of the reason why the marinade doesn't completely cover it, is that I used slightly more meat than the recipe called for, but I'm fairly certain that even if I had used the proportions described, it would still not have covered it.)





THE COOKING PROCESS

Okay, that's the marinade portion taken care of. Onwards onto the cooking process...

Since I'm scaling the recipe up a little bit, I'm using three onions rather than the two it calls for. Besides, one of them is really small. I'm using a mandolin with a really narrow "teeth" setting -- pretty darn close to 3mm.



Of course, this only cuts it into 3mm slices, so I'll have to dice it with a knife -- but I've gotta do that with the bits that the mandolin can't get to anyhow.



Okay, all done. Not perfect 3mm dice, but this should be more than good enough. It renders down a LOT in the cooking process.



And into the wok. I never measure the amount of oil I use -- I'm not sure if that's terribly important -- maybe I should? I was pretty generous, though. I like to use peanut oil, since it has a high smoke point -- even if this isn't cooked at a high temperature. I don't know if some other oil would be better?



I really took my time, and probably spent closer to 30 than 20 minutes. The color looked good to me, but I was a little shocked to see how oily it ended up after it rendered down. Maybe I used too much oil, but I'm not sure. The final result didn't taste oily.



Pork added. It released a lot of liquid right off the bat, which makes me think the vacuum marinade box did its job pretty well.



Only a few minutes later, even more liquid was released. Notice that it has already started to take on a slightly darker color. By the end of the cooking process, it will be a whole lot darker.



As you can see, there's not much marinade left. When I was cooking this, one of my guests smelled it and asked me -- in the tone of a child making a hopeful plea -- "are you gonna add this to the wok?" and when I replied that yes, I would -- there was much joy and excitement. Heheh.



Here we are, at "Bhuna, stage #1" -- the liquid has been cooked off (well, most of it).



I added the marinade, and "Bhuna'ed" it once more. Since there was so little marinade left behind, it didn't take very long, though. For the third Bhuna stage, I added an entire cup of water, even though the recipe just called for "a little." I don't think this would be of detriment to the recipe, though, since it just prolongs the Bhuna stage, which I think just intensifies the flavor. I might be wrong.

(Waaza, am I correct in assuming this? Oh and hey, I know that Bhuna refers to the method, but what is the literal meaning of this word?)



On the home stretch, now: I added enough water to cover the meat:



The recipe suggests simmering this while covered, for one hour (and then uncovered for 10 minutes, or until the sauce reaches the desired thickness) -- but after half an hour, I decided that the liquid was evaporating too slowly, so I decided to leave the lid off.



It started to take on a darker color, but the evaporation processes was going so slow it would probably take more than twice as long as it was supposed to, so I increased the heat slightly...

This is the last picture I have before plating, and from the color, I'm fairly certain it was taken just before I plated it.



(Cooking can be a demanding task on its own; it's easy enough to forget ingredients or steps... Now, add in taking pictures, trying to think about how to best document the process, figuring out exactly at what stage I should take a picture, and how to take it so that it best describes what is going on -- and avoid getting steam on the camera lens, covering the camera with oil or grease, or dropping the thing on the floor, or in the wok -- is quite the challenge... Sometimes, I feel like I'm a lobotomized gerbil struggling with quantum mechanics. Or something.)

Finally, ta-dah! The finished product.



Sadly, I added way too much cilantro (and didn't chop it finely enough, either), so you can't really see it all that well. Argh! Freakin' bummer, to shoot a crummy picture of plate, after all this -- but then again, I seem to have a natural knack for doing this...



FINAL THOUGHTS Unbelievable. Sometimes I adjust the sizes to make sure I've got leftovers, and I did that last night -- but there wasn't a morsel left. All gone. This would normally make me feel pretty happy, or proud. But I'm actually slightly annoyed, because I was just looking forward to eating those leftovers that much.

Not to blow my own horn, but I've made a few decent meals in my time (for an unschooled amateur, at least), and even a few really good ones -- and just a handful that have resulted in genuine raves. This was one of them -- and I'm not abashed to say this, since the reason for it isn't my cooking, but the recipe itself.

Waaza, btw, my guests told me to thank you! They went nuts over this meal -- even one dude that I know the food was a little too spicy for (I would normally have adjusted the heat down for him, but I was so excited about making this meal that I just forgot. Shoot).

Improvements: I can't think of anything to suggest that would improve this recipe. I wouldn't mind trying a little more or a little less of some of the ingredients, just to see what happens to the end result, but most likely, the next time I cook this I will probably try to follow the recipe just as closely as I did this first time. Maybe the third or fourth time, I'll try to experiment with something, just a little.

Mistakes:

-- While not exactly a mistake, I did marinate the meat in a vacuum box for three hours, rather than the recommended 24 hours, but I don't think this made any difference.
-- I did end up crushing and roasting the star aniseed, which isn't in the recipe -- but again, I'm not sure if that had any effect.
-- I might have roasted the spices too much, or over too high heat. I'll try to be more patient the next time around.
-- The cooking process is done over medium heat, so constant attention wasn't needed, but I could probably have stirred the pot a little more frequently. Nothing was burned, but on occasion, things would thicken up a bit at the bottom. This may or may not be a good thing. There certainly wasn't any burnt flavor to it. If it did affect the flavor, it might have made it deeper, or darker.
-- I didn't chop the cilantro (coriander leaves) as fine as I should have.
-- I take pride in cooking for the crowd, so I always tweak things to accommodate individual tastes, but this time I forgot that one guest had a slightly lesser threshold for spiciness -- he still loved it and devoured it, but since I'm sure this would have tasted just as good (or damn near) to the rest of us, I would have toned down the spiciness, had I remembered.
-- And I took another crummy shot of the plate. Something never change.

Well, that's it. Not that I'm a Vindaloo guru or anything, but I think I've come a long way. Thanks again, Waaza.

To recap, here are the tree resulting dishes from my Vindaloo journey...

First attempt:





Second attempt:





Third attempt:



And no points for guessing which of these recipes I'll be using, from now on.

Man, looking at this made me realize that the third recipe didn't use any tomato sauce at all -- and I was really concerned about that: I was worried that it wouldn't look as nice, without the red tomato coloring! Man, wouldya just look at that dark brown, beautiful color! Ah, I'm drooling again now...

[Jinmyo]

An excellent post. Thanks.

[rajsuman]

Hey Grub,

I once ate a delicious pork curry at a Goan friend's house for christmas. I ate a lot of it, considering I didn't even like chicken very much at the time. Unfortunately, I was too young to ask for a recipe, but I think it could have been a vindaloo. I would have requested my Mum to ask the recipe and make it for me, but she doesn't eat pork, nor does she cook it at home. Anyway, I've lost touch with the friend, but I remember that dish as if I ate it yesterday. I tried making a pork vindaloo from one of Madhur Jaffrey's books, but found it quite strong on the vinegar and spices. I didn't like it at all. I was pretty discouraged and wasn't planning to make it again anytime soon - all that trouble for what? I could buy a jar of Patak's if I did want to make it I thought.

BUT look what you've done now! With your beautiful pictures, fabulous commentary and persistence to achieve perfection you've made me feel ashamed for giving up. Sigh! Now I feel too inspired to go and cook. Looks like my plans to laze away a saturday afternoon on the couch in front of the TV and/or laptop are out of the window.

Thanks and congratulations! Isn't it a great feeling when you arrive at the most perfect version of a dish? I'm rejoicing for you!

Suman

Edited to add: Using rice vinegar is a great idea!

This post has been edited by rajsuman: 02 July 2005 - 07:40 AM

[waaza]

excellent post, Grub, and I am happy that things worked out so well, good on ya.
The notes were added to help explain why things were done, and hopefully convey the feeling that the method was based on sound culinary and scientific priciples; what was included applies to all other dishes, as the science is the same. Once we learn about why we do it, and understand it, it all seems to make sence, and our cooking improves accordingly, IMHO.

To answer the points you raise:
'roasting' the spices...... if you have one, use a heavy pan, I use a cast iron frying pan (skillet). It distributes the heat well, and is less prone to draughts. The heat needs to be quite high, as you found. Sniffing the capsaicin-ladened aroma is not to be repeated, best to open a window or use an efficient fume hood. The spices look fine, but I would suggest you leave the fenugreek in for 10 seconds, then remove to a cold ring to stop the roasting asap. The point you make about the star anise is useful. We roast the spices to produce other flavours (with coriander, cumin and fenugreek, maybe chilli). There are known chemical reactions that are induced that change the flavour to produce a 'smokey' aroma, to replace the lack of these flavours from the pork, as we are not taking the meat to a high temperature. In the case of star anise, these flavours are not formed (or if they are, to a much lesser extent), the aniseed-like aroma is due a chemical called anethol(e), and is present in other aniseed-flavoured spices and herbs. The anethol doesn't have (very) reactive chemical groups, so will not take part in any major flavour changes. So heating it only drives off the flavour, not change it, so it actually makes little difference whether you add the star anise to the roasting spices, or after, if you roast it, it may lose some flavour, but that is all. This hopefully explains why 'roasting' spices is necessary for some dishes, but not all, it is not to be applied universally or else all your curries will have a 'roasted nutty' flavour, although I think it common in Sri Lanka (I hope to talk to a local Sri Lankan masterchef about this soon). You could add more aniseed, but it should be enough, the reasons why it was not could be due to the age of the spice, or you used a bit lacking in flavour, or the star's 'leg' was small, but at least you are aware of it, and can adjust it next time. BTW, these are some of the variables which we have to try to control in cooking, and maintain it as an art, as well as a science. Its all part of the cooking experience, and in my book, its the experience which really shows in controlling the variables to get a consistant product. It helps if the recipe is robust and rugged. Let me explain.
If we develop a new recipe (or adapt an existing one, more like it) do we test it for ruggedness and robustness?
These terms have similar, but different meanings.
Robustness deals with internal factors, such as a chef's intentional change (to a small, but insignificant degree, eg will using aniseed instead of fennel alter the flavour?).
Ruggedness is more important, as it deals with external factors, including different:
chefs
ovens/ranges
ingredients
suppliers

A recipe is quite often not a validated approach to optimization, but an historic document. It is usually 'this is what I did', rather than 'this is the best that can be done' (given the circumstances!)
So testing the robustness and ruggeness is important, IMHO, so that we can get the best from our efforts.

When you marinate the meat, stir to thoroughly mix, then pat it down to squash it all in the dish, so that the liquid comes above all the meat. If the amount of meat and shape/size of pan don't allow this, then I would agree that more liquid can be added. If this means more liquid is left over, add it in about two tablespoons at a time during the bhuna process, rather than all in one go. What you are trying to achieve is to stop the burning of the spices, so adding water (or water-based liquids) reduces the temperature quickly enough. BTW, I understand bhuna means frying, so the much loved British/Indian restarant dish such as lamb bhuna should be dry, not with a sauce! Hopefully you will learn that there are only a few techniques used in Indian cookery, this is an important one.

The point about the oil and golden onions is fine. What you have found is that when the onions are done, the pan contains only oil, which is spot on. There should be no water left. This is important as the mean temperature will not rise above that of the boiling point of water (100°C, 212°F), and therefore the meat will not brown. It is also important for the oil extraction of the 'woody' spices, like star anise, cassia, cardamom and cloves. At the end of the cooking process, you end up with, essentially, an emulsion of oil and water, that stage is arrived at when the large bubbles of steam reduce in size, and small oil droplets can be seen in the gravy (I call it a gravy, as the meat juices are used in its preparation, rather than a sauce which (in French cooking at least, and British/Indian restaurants in particular) usually has no connection with the meat/fish it is served with. This is one reason, IMHO, why such restaurants can't make a decent curry.

You say that your guests and you really enjoyed the dish, and yet you still have concerns, thats dedication, good on ya. Please post any changes you might make, and why you made them.
So, what next?
cheers
Waaza

[Milagai]

Grub, on Jul 2 2005, 05:28 AM, said:

INTRODUCTION


This mixture was supposed to be roasted until it started smoking, but after nearly ten minutes and no smoke, I increased the heat to "high." (I use an electric stove, so I think the heat doesn't conduct as well as a gas stove.) I added the cracked fenugreek seeds just as the smoke started, and immediately took the wok off the heat.


This seems to have done the trick. The colors seem to be just about right, although the mustard seeds (I think) are fairly dark, so maybe I made a mistake in increasing the heat after all. It was hard to tell from the aroma, since I used a lot of chilis (in fact, once it started smoking, I put my head directly over the wok and took a deep sniff -- BAD mistake! Whoa, what a rush -- my nostrils felt like the smoke stacks at Chernobyl.)

those pungent fumes, called "ghaat" in indian kitchens,
is a sign that things are going correctly

just a second or two after that the spices will start to burn.

like waaza said, you need the best hood available do deal
with those.

milagai

[Episure]

Good job Grub, I know it's bhuna hard days night for you.

I would have browned the onions to a darker shade.
My Goan friend uses leftover wine which has turned to vinegar.

[Grub]

Thanks a bunch for all the good words -- that write-up took WAY too long... Gah.

Waaza, okay I'll make sure not to roast the aniseed the next time. And if I make chances, I'll be sure to make a note of it in this thread.

I don't have any really heave pans unfortunately, so I'll probably be stuck with the wok for now.

The patting down you describe for the marinade is exactly what I did.

Next, well I think something rice would be good, but tomato based chicken is worth looking at... But after thinking about this for a while, I realized that there were two dishes that I remember from England, that I'd like to become more familiar with, are Madras and Phal.

Now, Madras was the penultimate curry on the strength-chart (Mild, medium, Madras, Vindaloo), and I obviously realize that the strength of the curry really has nothing to do with this. I've learned that about Vindaloo, of course. But I'd still like to learn what a Madras curry really is -- if it should be a particular meat, like Vindaloo, etc.

Phal is something I never heard about while living in Manchester, but I had it in Wokingham, and it was even spicier than Vindaloo (as served in Manchester, that is). I had been to this place (Wokingham) with a dude and we had the Vindaloo, which was VERY spicy. Next time we went there, he had the Vindaloo, but warned me to not try it since it was very spicy that night (he got there before me) and I poo-poo'ed him, and was about to order the Vindaloo -- but then I was told that this dish Phal was even stronger than the Vindaloo, so I promptly ordered it.

It damn near killed me. Okay, I wasn't in "training" like when I was in college. But this stuff was really, really lethal... HOWEVER, the important thing was, it was also extremely good. It was too strong for me to eat more than 1/3 of it -- and even doing that, was damn near torture. But I did it, cos it just tasted excellent.

Now, if Phal is like the Vindaloo, hopefully, the extreme spiciness isn't actually a proper a part of the dish, and I might be able to recreate it, and eat it, without the extreme heat.

So that'd be an awesome thing to learn.

--------------------
Milagai -- okay that makes perfect sense. "Ghaaaaat!!" is almost exactly what I said, when I smelled it


Episure -- aaaaugh. ::groan::

Okay, okay.

There's this little town, and a frog walks into a bank. He walks up to a teller's window where a young lady sporting a nametag, "Patricia Wack" smiles, greets the frog and asks him how she can help him.

The frog tells her his name is Kermit Jagger -- and yes, he IS related, Mick Jagger is his father -- and that he is looking for a temporary loan because he is about to take some friends on a holiday, and his father isn't around, so he can't get his hands on any cash right now.

She asks him how much he is looking for, and he says he needs 30,000 Pounds. Whoa, she says, that's quite a lot -- even with a famous father, we'd expect some kind of collateral for that.

The frog says sure, and very carefully, places a small, exquisitely decorated porcelain elephant on the counter.

Oh! says she. This is most unusual -- I shall have to talk to the bank's manager. Excuse me, Sir, I'll be right back! The frog nods and smiles.

So the teller walks into the manager's office and tells her story, shaking her head in puzzlement and amazement -- but the manager nods appreciatively, and seems to regard the matter as a fairly normal affair.

Her explanation coming to and end, she says, "This is really quite strange, don't you think, sir?" -- holding out the little elephant -- "I mean, this is his collateral? What IS this thing, anway?!"

The manager smiles and replies,





















.
.
.





WAIT FOR IT...









.
.
.






"It's a knick-nack, Paddy Wack. Give the frog his loan. His father is a Rolling Stone."


::rim shot::

HA!

This post has been edited by Grub: 03 July 2005 - 04:09 PM

[waaza]

how can I break the news, Grub? Neither Madras or Phall are real curries. Sure, there are dishes from Madras, but no dish that I know of is 'a Madras', and AFAIK, phall is pure imagination. I'll go through a typical 'Indian restaurant' menu, and destroy the myths for you.

Anything Balti does not exist in India, it is a name given by certain kinds of restaurant owners who tried to differentiate their food from normal 'Indian' food. What is offerd is usually the same old stuff served in a little wok, or sometimes, a bucket (I'm told balti means bucket in some Indian languages!!) Others will claim Balti derives from Baltistan, which is supposed to be in norther Pakistan, though I've never found it on a map. My eldest son is in N Pakistan at the moment, so he can have the mission....

Bhuna we have dealt with, as you will now know, it means to fry, and is usually a dry dish, made with meat that is able to be quickly cooked, like fillet steak (though not necessarily beef...oops). So there could be many kinds of bhuna dishes, chicken is nice.

Biryani is a type of pilau rice dish, but taken (IMHO, and of other gastronomers) to the pinnacle of rice cookery. It is made using either raw or partially cooked rice, and raw or partially cooked meat/fish. It was not originally a vegetarian dish, and used by the cooks as an example of their (considerable) culinary expertise. It is characterised by the layering of rice and meat, and cooking again, on dum (more about this technique later) with very fragrant ingredients, a truely awesome dish.
Originating in Persia, probably, it means 'fry before cooking' in Persian (is that old Persian or Farsi??), but that suggests the rice is fried before it is cooked (in water). I will give my thoughts to you on rice cooking, all will become clear, then, I hope.

Bombay not a unique dish, but suggesting 'from this noble city' (now called Mumbai, so all those menus will have to be changed...not!)

Ceylon another one out of date (now called Sri Lanka, of course). The curries from Sri Lanka are usually quite different, and use roasted spice mixes, discussed elsewhere. Just as Indian dishes, one could not have a single 'Ceylon' dish, there are so many different individual ones.

dhansak a Parsi dish, made from lamb/mutton (though chicken is used) containing lentils (the Parsi might use several kinds, maybe as many as seven types) and fenugreek leaves, mint, spinach, aubergine, squash and a large number of spices. The often used potato is a recent addition, I think, as is tomato. Often eaten with brown rice, and kebab, for Sunday lunch by the Parsi.

dopiaz meaning two onions, though some will say two kinds of onions, onions added twice, once for the gravy and others added whole as vegetables, and some say any dish with meat and vegetables. I've found that most names of Indian dishes are very confusing, as many names are used for the same dish, or many dishes can have the same name. Just what is a bhaji? or a salan, or even yakni? different strokes for different folks. All very confusing for the non-Indian. Anyway, believe it or not, a dopiaz, usually made from lamb, though chicken is often used, is a kind of korma (see below).

jalfrezi even I am a little confused here, I am told it is an Anglo-Bengali dish, made by Bengalis for the British in Bengal. It is supposed to be a stir fry dish, and is quite dry, and hot with whole green chilli. Meat which is quickly cooked is usually used, like chicken or prawn.

karahi quite popular in India at one time, it is the name of the wok-like vessel used to cook this type of dish. It is unlikely to be a specific dish, and I am inclined to put into the same kind of 'pidgeon-hole' as balti dishes. Maybe that is a little unkind?

Korma not the insipid pathetic mild dish found in 'Indian restaurants', by a method of cooking (cf bhuna). Korma means to braise, or a braising dish. To braise a meat (in this case) we need a little fat and a little water-based ingredient. The meat is never covered completely, (as in a stew) but the top half of the meat joint is allowed to cook uncovered in liquid, as it does so, certain chemical reactions take place (called Maillard reactions, more of that later) which allow the meat to brown. To brown all the meat, the braising dish must be shaken from time to time. The cooking is long, and at a low heat, in an oven (or on dying embers with more on the lid of the cooking vessel, which is usually 'sealed' with a ribbon of pastry/bread dough). The range of different kormas is huge (probably the biggest group of moist-heat cooked dishes) and not necessarily mild, one dish uses more chillies than in a vindaloo! Some other well-known dishes are in this group.

Madras not a dish, by suggestive of dishes from around Madras (Chennai)

Malayan, no comment, obviously anything with fruit and coconut milk!

Masala meaning spice, it has come to mean just about anything from dry spice mix, as in garam masala, to a gravy, such as CTM.

methi true dishes with fenugreek herb used as a major flavouring agent.

pathia a true dish, I think originally Parsi, usually made with prawns (also called shrimp in the US, BTW if you asked for shrimp around here you would be given something else, we are famous for our shrimp..not prawns) A sweet and sour dish, some say with a Chinese influence, although it is not a 'sweet and sour sauce' type (see chasnidhar)

rogan josh this dish, a true dish from Kashmir and Jammu, though others lay claim to it, is a type of korma, and is made with lamb, mutton, goat or chimaera. It is often made as a deep red-coloured dish, the colour being derived from a number of very red ingredients (none of which is tomato, by the way). Some followers of certain religions do not use onions/garlic in this dish, but use asafoetida instead. A very good dish, full of flavour and very warming in the winter months in K&J.

vindaloo you know all about this one....

this list is not exhaustive, there are hundreds never seen on an 'Indian resaurant's 'menu.


so there you have it, I may have left out a few, so if you have any others in mind, let me know, sorry about the phall and madras (well, I'm not, you may be ), there are much better dishes to try, IMHO. I tried a 'phall' once, it was just chilli powder in ghee, nuff said!

I have left out tandoori/kebabs/kofta, vegetable dishes and the ubiquitous CTM. If you want to creat a CTM yourself, I will give you all the neccessary info on the techniques you could employ, but as we all know, CTM is not an Indian dish.

cheers
Waaza

Grub, watch this spice, sorry space, for 'all you wanted to know about rice cooking'....

[Ducksredux]

Eh, first post, nervous...
So... uh I completely flubbed this Vindaloo. My attempt should perhaps be called Vindapoo. I'm trying to figure out where I went wrong, but I think maybe in multiple places.

I decided to use duck instead of pork, since I dunno I grew up kosher and now I'm not but Rabbi Weiser is still in the back of my head telling me that god will cut off my soul if I eat pork. So I got a 5lb frozen duck. Defrosted in water in the sink for a couple of hours. Took me about a half hour to skin it, and then about 45 minutes to hack off about 600 grams of meat. The chunks of meat were uhh not exactly uniform in size, as some of them had been pretty severely massacred.

For the marinade I think I burnt a pepper or two, but not the spices I don't think. Not sure if I used the right pepper - they weren't labeled - but they sure looked like Sanam. Maybe I shouldn't have used apple cider vinegar?

Figured I might as well put the duck carcass to work so I made a stock with no mirepoix and let it simmer for like 5 hrs.

So about 20 hrs later I fried the onions in this massive 5 qt cast-iron enamel-lined buffet casserole. Maybe way too big? Got the onions nice and golden and added the meat. Couldn't get much of the marinade off the chunks, cause I didn't want the onions to burn while I was straining them or whatever.

So then it took like 45 minutes before the meat was semi-dry. Added in the rest of the marinade (not much). After a bit I added in some duck stock, but it took forever to burn off. Covered the vindaloo in the stock and simmered for an hour covered.

After an hour there was still a ton of liquid (maybe cause my casserole dish was so wide?). I simmered it for a couple of hours uncovered but the liquid was reducing too slowly. At that point I tasted it and decided that the stuff didn't taste very good so I might as well hurry it up. Took the meat out and turned the heat up so it'd reduce quicker. Got annoyed after a half hour of that and put the meat back in and served it.

The meat was a bit stringy but not tough at all. The meat had some flavor but the sauce little. I also managed to burn Suvir's spinach and potato red onion thingee and make his cumin rice way mushy. My wife bought ice cream to cheer me up.

[Grub]

Hey, very cool you tried the recipe! I'm real sorry to hear it didn't work though.

Hopefully, the real experts will offer some advice on this, and figure out what went wrong -- but here's the things I can think of...

Did you follow Waaza's original recipe? I followed it fairly obsessively -- especially the footnotes...

If you don't want to use pork, how about beef? I'm not familiar enough with duck, to know how it would differ in this dish, but I would think that maybe beef would be closer to the general structure and overall properties of pork, than duck. Having the pieces of meat completely uniform is probably not necessary, but I should think that if they were radically different, you would end up with some pieces being cooked far more, than others.

The apple cider vinegar might be a problem, but I'm not sure. I just went with the rice vinegar, since it was one of the options Waaza listed in his recipe. In previous Vindaloo attempts, I used white wine vinegar, which didn't turn out anywhere near as nice -- it was very vinegary (but this could just be due to the much shorter cooking time on that earlier recipe).

I'm fairly certain my wok can moonlight as a karahi, but I don't know if using a casserole would have any effect on it. I just like that sucker so much I use it for everything from steaming bass to frying Norwegian meat cakes. Maybe there's something magical about the shape of a wok -- but then again, I've seen Le Creuset sell a totally flat-bottomed pan that they labeled as a karahi, so what do I know? Or perhaps I should say, what the hell does Le Creuset know about Indian cooking?

Well that's all I can thing off right away... Not terribly helpful I'm afraid.

I'm hankering to try this dish again myself, and will try to document everything this time too (I'm annoyed that I didn't make proper note of how time progressed through the cooking process), and perhaps that might be of help. But it's just way too hot right now, for such a slow-cooked dish.

[waaza]

a couple of things come to mind, ducks'

Was the pan you used an enamel one? If this had a shinny surface, it could be that the bhuna process did not work too well. I use only cast iron pans (except for a cheap non-stick omelette pan, my original cast iron one split!!!). The spices/marinade need to become quite hot and browned to form what the French call 'fonds'. This develops the flavour necessary for this dish.

The other problem is the recipe. It is not often that one can just replace one meat with another without changing something else. The spices in Indain cooking are very carefully chosen for a particular meat, to enhance some flavours and suppress others. Although so-called 'Indian restaurants' seem to think that any meat can be served with any sauce, this really is not the case . For example, Rogan josh is only made with lamb/mutton/goat/chimaera, although you may see other meat used.

So here is a recipe for duck vindaloo.

Goan duck vindaloo (vin d'alhos)

According to Waaza, please copy the entire recipe,
do not change anything and credit me if you pass it on, thanks.

Ingredients for 4 people

Heat a large shallow pan on medium high heat. (1)
add 1 tbsp whole Indian coriander (2)
1 tsp white cumin (3)
1 tsp brown/black mustard seed (4)
1 tsp black pepper corns
6 - 10 lightly crushed dry red sannam chillies, or to taste.(5)
heat until just smoking, then add 1/2 tsp cracked fenugreek seeds.(6)
heat for another 10 seconds only, and take off the heat and cool.
when the seeds and chillies are cold, grind to a medium fine powder.
Add to the grinder 1 tsp garam masala (7)

Place to ground spice mix in a bowl, then
add 1 tbsp oil, 120ml (4 fl oz or 1/2 cup) cider vinegar(9)
and 7 cloves of garlic and 1 tbsp fresh grated ginger.
mix all together, then add about 900g of duck on the bone, cut into pieces(10)
so that all the duck is totally submerged in the marinade.

Cover the bowl with plastic wrap, and place in the fridge for 24 hours.(11)

Place four tablespoons of oil in a pan, and heat to medium high.
Add the duck skin, ribs and wingtips.
Fry until they are well browned.
Decant off oil/rendered duck fat, and reserve for later.
Add fresh cold water to the pan to cover the fried duck parts, and simmer for half an hour.
Reserve stock (do not add salt).

To cook the vindaloo:

Heat 80ml (3 fl oz, 1/3 cup) cooking oil to medium heat in pan
meanwhile, cut two medium sized onions into 3mm dice(12)
add to pan and cook on medium heat for about 20 mins, until onions are golden(14)
strain duck from excess marinade and add to pan, maintaining medium heat.(15)
Continue cooking until the contents of the pan dry up.(16)
Add rest of marinade, and cook until dry once more.
Add a little water, and continue the bhuna process.(17)
Continue with this for about 5 minutes.
Now add 1/2 tsp of ground turmeric, and fry for 10 seconds only(18)
then add enough of the duck stock to cover all the portions, adding more water if required.(19)
Place a lid on the pan, turn down the heat and simmer for 45 minutes.(20)
Uncover the pan, and allow the gravy to thicken according to requirements, but do not boil.(21)
Place the vindaloo in a hot serving bowl.

To prepare the tarka:

Put about two tablespoons of the duck fat/oil in a small saucepan and heat on high. (22)
Meanwhile, chop fresh root ginger (about the size of your thumb) into julienne strips about an inch long, as finely as possible.
When the oil is just smoking, add a teaspoonful of black mustard seeds followed by about half the quantity of crushed fenugreek seeds.(23)
If you want an even hotter gravy, add a few lightly crushed dry red sannam chillies.
Then, immediately add the julienned ginger. Cook for about ten seconds.
Pour the hot tarka (or tadka) over the duck vindaloo.(24)

Serve with rice, or potatoes, or both, and a strong greens-based dish, like spinach.

Notes

1) this is to dry roast the spices, where the heating produces flavours which are similar to those from roasted meats. As the duck will not be roasted, it is important that these flavours are developed.
2) Indian coriander is the slightly larger, lighter coloured 'rugby-ball' shaped seed, said to have a better flavour than the (usually) Moroccan cultivar, but it really makes little difference.
3) Use the white cumin, and not the so-called black cumin, which has a very different flavour.
4) Or use the European white/yellow, it's not Indian, but similar effect.
5) Really to taste, if you prefer it even hotter, use the very hot Birdseye type chilli, but they must be dried, fresh will not produce the heat quickly enough for the marinade.
6) Try to find the cracked fenugreek used for making pickles, or very lightly grind whole seeds, be very careful not to roast these for more than 10 seconds, as they will become very bitter.
7) Make your own by grinding green cardamom, cassia, cloves and mace
8)
9) Goans would use vinegar made from toddy, a kind of alcohol made from palm sugar, but a mild cider vinegar works well, as would rice vinegar
10) Skin the duck. Cut the duck into breasts (each cut into two, on the bone), two legs, cut into two, and first part of wings. Use the rib cage, skin and wingtips for the stock.
11) The duck will absorb some of the liquid, making it juicier, and adsorb some of the aromatics from the spices and garlic/ginger, giving a deeper flavour.
12) The onions need to be cut into small dice so that the water can be driven out without burning, and leave the pan with just oil, so the temperatures can rise to those which start to brown the meat, thus adding flavour.
14) heat the onions (cut and cook immediately, to reduce bitterness) and cook on medium heat until golden, this takes about twenty minutes, there should not be any black bits on the edges of the onion, remove them if you have any, and turn down the heat a little. The heat will depend on the amount of onion, the size, shape and construction of the pan, and the ambient temperature/draughts, but with time, you'll find just the right combination, believe me.
15) It is important not to increase the heat or the duck will shrivel and become tough as it squeezes out the marinade you so carefully bathed it in! Keeping it on the bone may reduce the shrinkage a little, and add a little flavour from the morrow, if the bird is mature enough.
16) This is the so-called bhuna method, it’s a way of 'frying' the aromatics to hot oil extract the flavours without burning them, add a little water when it looks (or smells) as though it might burn. This gives a deeper, slightly smoky flavour to the dish.
17) Continue heating and adding water a few times to complete the bhuna process.
18) Turmeric will burn very quickly, so watch it very carefully, but it still needs a little oil extraction for those vanilla-type notes to come through, and to extract the colour.
19) This is a stew-type dish, all the duck needs to be covered.
20) The stock must only be heated to simmering point, that is, just a bubble now and again, if the liquid gets any hotter, the meat can shrivel and become stringy, and rather tasteless.
21) You could take the lid of sooner if you think the gravy is going to be too thin, or you could remove the cooked meat, and reduce the gravy on its own. Add salt to taste.
22) Ensure there is no water in the oil, dry with salt or re-decant.
23) Be very careful as the seeds can 'explode' and jump out of the pan, you have been warmed.
24) Be careful, the very hot oil will spit as it hits the water-based gravy, but is quite spectacular. You can do it at the table, but please be very careful!!

You could add some finely cut coriander leaf for garnish if you wish, but I suggest if preparing for a dinner party, when several dishes are being offered, you put a very large fresh chilli on the rim of the serving dish, to indicate its pungency! Note, although I have used many chillies, they do blend in very well, the overall effect is one of total glow rather than stinging hot.

Enjoy.
Waaza

[Ducksredux]

Quote

Was the pan you used an enamel one? If this had a shinny surface, it could be that the bhuna process did not work too well. I use only cast iron pans (except for a cheap non-stick omelette pan, my original cast iron one split!!!). The spices/marinade need to become quite hot and browned to form what the French call 'fonds'. This develops the flavour necessary for this dish.

No, the pan isn't enamel, it's cast iron that has been coated with enamel. It's 13" wide at the bottom: Le Creuset 5 qt Buffet Casserole
I had no problems when I needed to fry the onions, but when I turned down the temperature to simmer the meat covered it seemed like I could either get a bubble every once in a while or a boil and nothing in between. And then when I took the cover off to simmer to reduce the water it took hours! Is it supposed to take hours to simmer off a little water? That's why I was thinking maybe my pot is way too wide... maybe the tiny flame that keeps it simmering isn't strong enough to heat up the entire pot, therefore it only simmers in the middle and is lukewarm (bacteria-breeding temperature) at the sides. Any validity to this theory do you think? I have deeper pots that aren't nearly as wide that I could use Le Creuset Soup Pot, but I don't know if it's better to have more surface area being heated or less.


Thanks so much for the modified recipe. I love the idea of adding a tarka at the end. I guess I'm surprised that the duck needs that much extra help, but the more flavor the merrier. I'll definitely give this recipe a try later this week. Maybe I can even find a duck that hasn't been frozen.

Does the type of frying oil make a huge difference? I've been using peanut oil because that's what I have on hand.

I agree with you that the number of chiles makes the dish "glow" rather than hot, but my wife, who's a big baby, thinks it's too hot to taste with only 5 chiles, so I'll have to either uninvite her or cut back on the chiles somewhat. (She usually orders korma "extra mild")

Grub, your success and perseverance continue to inspire me.

[apshelbourne]

As the missus & daughter were away for a few days, I thought I'd take the opportunity to try Waaza's intriguing & extensive vindaloo recipe. I have to admit I like British Indian restaurant food - or some of it, anyway - but I leave that for going out. At home, I like to cook "authentic", whatever that means. Now I know there can never be a single, definitive recipe for any Indian dish, but I've googled a lot for vindaloos, and Waaza's recipe had a good feel to it. Plus Grub really raved about the result. Doubleplus, I've followed Waaza's comments on uk.food+drink.indian & he knows his stuff. Period.

So I tried to follow the recipe as closely as I could, with the following variations/comments:

1. Couldn't get a shoulder cut of my favourite free range rare breed pork, so had to make do with 4 "spare rib chops". They had a nice marbling of fat. However, after trimming, I ended up with only 600g of meat.

2. Got home to find I didn't have any whole fenugreek seeds, like wot I thought. So I added 1/2 tsp of ground fenugreek along with the garlic and ginger.

3. I used 7 very small (2cm x 0.5 cm) dried birdseye chillies from Pakistan. I know from experience they're ferociously hot, and usually use only a couple in any dish. But, hell, it's a vindaloo. Go for it!

4. Waaza didn't say what to do to the garlic, so I crushed it and chopped it finely. It added a nice speckled appearance to the finished dish, BTW.

5. Had no trouble covering the pork in the marinade. Firstly, there was less pork, and secondly I used a deep dish, rather than a shallow box like Grub.

6. I used butter ghee for frying the onions etc. as I had some in the fridge.

7. The first bhuna took for ever! I'd thoroughly drained the marinade from the meat, but more & more liquid came out as it cooked. But I resisted the very, very strong temptation to turn up the heat.

8. There were only a couple of tbsp of marinade left, so I added a little water and used this for the second bhuna. By this time my stomach was telling me to get a move on, so I didn't bhuna any more.

9. While bhuna-ing, I noticed that nowhere had Waaza specified any salt. I try not to be too heavy-handed with the NaCl, but a total lack seemed wrong. So I added a tsp with the water after the bhuna.

10. My range couldn't maintain the specified very slow simmer, so I used the smallest burner on minimum & hoped for the best.

11. Due to inattention (I was re-grouting the patio during all this (what a giddy whirl life can be!)) it simmered for 1 hour 20 mins.

12. I ate it with plain rice and a simple saag aloo, with a dish of raita to hand in case the heat proved too much. Oh, and a cold bottle of Budvar. Or two.

And the result?

a. Appearance: appealing. A pleasant mid brown/orange with only a moderate amount of speckled gravy.

b. Texture: incredible. I'd thought it would be either tough because of the extended cooking time & higher temperature, or soft and falling apart into strings. But no! In biting into the first cube of pork, it yielded and felt like - hard to describe - a very firm fudge. That doesn't sound very nice, does it? But it was. Absolutely phenomenal. After a couple of chews, the pork blended into the thick gravy creating a gorgeous mouth-feel. A molecular transformation worthy of Mr Blumenthal.

c. Flavour: excellent. It's hard to descibe taste in words, as the vapid ramblings of many a wine writer attest. On first impression, there was a pleasant spicyness and a mild heat. But after a second or two, a deep warmth began to grow, which seemed to bring out or intensify the underlying smokiness and dark, earth flavours of the roasted and bhuna-ed spices. Not a sharp heat, but a slowly developing warmth that makes me drool in trying to recollect it.

In short: one of the best dishes I've ever prepared. I can't wait to try it out on some of my curry-loving friends and colleagues.

Waaza - when are you going to write a book? Can I order my copy now?

Deep respect.

- Tony -

[Grub]

apshelbourne, on Aug 17 2005, 01:28 AM, said:

As the missus & daughter were away for a few days, I thought I'd take the opportunity to try Waaza's intriguing & extensive vindaloo recipe...

Awesome, I'm stoked you liked it! I'm eagerly awaiting for the summertime heat to die down here, so I can try it again.

Couple of questions: what kind of vinegar did you use, and how did the color of your dish compare to mine?

[apshelbourne]

Grub, on Aug 17 2005, 09:50 AM, said:

Couple of questions: what kind of vinegar did you use, and how did the color of your dish compare to mine?

I used cider vinegar, as I just happened to have an old bottle with exactly the right quantity left in it.

The colour was lighter than yours, with more of an orange tint.

- Tony -

[tryska]

wow. i'm totally motivated to make pork vindaloo now.


I can't recall ever tasting vindaloo, to be honest - altho i'm sure soemwhere int he deep dark recesses of memory I must have.

But this looks and sounds absolutely heavenly. It will be a great experiment.

one thing tho - the Mustard seed in the first picture looks nothing like the Mustard seed I know (dark brownish little orbs reminiscent of poppy seed). Am i missing something?


oh - and how much is 700 Grams in US lbs?

This post has been edited by tryska: 17 August 2005 - 07:13 AM

[anzu]

700 grams is 1 and a half lbs (rounded off).

The mustard seeds in the picture look to me what my MIL refers to as 'rai' (even though this strictly speaking means 'mustard'). She uses it only for certain pickles, and it is made from the mustard seeds that you were talking about, but which have been husked and split.

I'd say you should use the mustard you are accustomed to without hesitation.

[tryska]

cool thanks anzu!


one last question that just came to mind - considering the roots of vindaloo (or vinh d'alho) - what would happen if i were to substitute vinho verde for the cider vinegar?

[anzu]

tryska, on Aug 17 2005, 04:53 PM, said:

cool thanks anzu!


one last question that just came to mind - considering the roots of vindaloo (or vinh d'alho) - what would happen if i were to substitute vinho verde for the cider vinegar?

Not acid enough, I should think. The acid content of the vinegar is important for the right taste.

[tryska]

as i suspected. thanks anzu!

[Grub]

Finally made another Vindaloo last night...

Bad news, it wasn't as good as the first one, but good news is, I know what I did wrong, so I can correct it the next time around. As they say, the only chess matches you can learn from, are the ones you lose.

Besides, I figure if I post my thoughts here, it might be helpful to others, to avoid these pitfalls.

Here's the dish -- I aslo made some aloo gobi (taters & cauliflower -- classic vegiterian dish) to go along with it, as I had a few more diners this time around (and wanted to stretch it out a little, so I'd have a chance to check out how the vindaloo would taste as leftovers, heheh). Well, here it is:



A minor mistake is that I wanted it to be less hot than the last time, so I used seven chilies (dry ones, very strong) rather than ten. HOWEVER, since I also used considerably more meat (having more guests, and hoping for leftovers), this brought the heat down too far -- I'd guestimate that it was only about 1/3 as hot as the first one I made. A good vindaloo doesn't have to be super hot, but it has to have a certain heat to it, or else the whole thing just doesn't come through. This was a mild vindaloo.

A slightly bigger mistake is that I didn't up the amount of onions enough, to compensate for the extra meat. As you can see from the picture, it is far drier than my first effort.

A far bigger mistake is that I took a break from stirring at JUST the wrong moment, and the dish got burned. The recipe goes through four stages where it is simmering/braising in the liquids (first from water released from the onions, then in water released from the meat, then in the marinade, and finally in added water) -- but after each of these stages, it goes into the "dry" frying, or bhuna stage, and during those stages, you have to stir constantly... I left the pot just as it hit this bhuna stage, and it got kinda burned. Not enough to really wreck the dish, but it imparted a darker flavor, that was particularly noticable because of the lack of spiciness.

So if you make this dish, pay attention to the evaporating liquids: when the water has steamed off, and the only liquids left are oils, keep stirring, stirring...

A final problem was the timing... With the extra onions and meat added, the dish took considerably longer to cook, because it took longer to braise and steam off the water, and getting to the bhuna stage.



Edit: I just realized I made another mistake... One of the bhuna stages in the original recipe says to "add some water," and the next to add enough water or stock to cover the meat. Instead, I basically skipped the penultimate bhuna stage, and jumped ahead to the last one, but didn't add anywhere near enough water to cover the meat. This definetely had an impact on the tenderness, the flavor, and the much drier end result.

I'm even more impressed with this recipe, now. You need to be on your toes, and follow it precisely, because it is so perfectly balanced that if you miss anything or do things differently, it WILL have an impact. It's an extremely detailed recipe, but it needs to be so.

Oh yeah, and damnit, I screwed up and forgot to add the cilantro (coriander leaves). Damnit! I hate missing those things. I even made a note about chopping the cilantro up much more than I did the last time. Ugh.

Well, in spite of my obsessive self-critique, the dinner went off very well. People loved it, and ate unbelievable amounts of it -- I only got about a cup and a half worth of leftovers. Well, a cup and a half of the vindaloo -- there's tons left of the aloo goobi, so there was defintely a preference amongst the guests, hehehe.

This post has been edited by Grub: 28 August 2005 - 04:35 AM

[tryska]

well thanks to this thread - i have some pork marinating in the fridge right now.


The only thing i'm concerned with is that the pork i have comes from center cut prok chops - i'm not sure how it will handle being stewed - but you live and you learn.

One other question - can someone define "medium sized onion"?

I picked up 2 onions that are medium sized by gargantuan american supermarket standards. they are base-ball sized.

This post has been edited by tryska: 28 August 2005 - 09:35 AM

[Grub]

First time around, I used pork sirloin and it held up fine. I'm not certain, but I think a chop basically contain mostly the same meat -- if it's like beef, where a t-bone contains mostly sirloin, with a smaller portion of tenderloin. I used pork shoulder the second time around, and I think that's an ideal cut to use (except it's much more work to cut it up, since it has some sizeable bits of fat).

Uh, having a Homer Simpson moment here -- I never even consider to look for "stewing pork." Pre-cut. That'd take a lot of work out of the process. D'oh.

Medium-sized would be baseball/cricket ball-sized, methinks.

And for the record, you defintely want to make sure you have leftovers... The flavor is so intense, and so damn amazing, it's unbelievable. Hell, next time I'll just cook the thing a day ahead and leave it in the fridge and serve it as leftovers.

[tryska]

I haven't tasted mine yet - but it came out looking right. I figured I'd let it sit overnight and have it this evening so the flavors have a chance to meld and develop.

[Grub]

tryska, on Aug 29 2005, 07:01 AM, said:

I haven't tasted mine yet - but it came out looking right.  I figured I'd let it sit overnight and have it this evening so the flavors have a chance to meld and develop.

. . . well???...

How'd it taste?!

[tryska]

doh! forgot to report back.

it's delicious! very spicy but quite yummy.

i actually was expecting more of a vinegary taste, but i'm pleasantly surprised. thank you so much for this thread!

[waaza]

tryska, on Aug 28 2005, 05:34 PM, said:

well thanks to this thread - i have some pork marinating in the fridge right now.


The only thing i'm concerned with is that the pork i have comes from center cut prok chops - i'm not sure how it will handle being stewed - but you live and you learn.

One other question - can someone define "medium sized onion"?

I picked up 2 onions that are medium sized by gargantuan american supermarket standards. they are base-ball sized.

the pork (or other meat in other dishes) should be from the region of the animal which has done much work in its lifetime, meaning its legs basically, but any really red meat, or dark meat in poultry. Its because this meat has more flavour. Unfortunately, because of the construction of the flesh, it is also a tougher cut. So to cook it, and to tenderize it, one must cook it slowly, at a lower temperature than a steak, for example.
If you heat this type of meat to too high a temperature, too much water is lost, and it gets really tough. If you cook it for too long, it loses flavour. This applies to beef, but less to lamb, if young.

I stipulated 'medium-sized' onions to distiguish them from large (Spanish) onions, or whatever you might call them. Like so much other produce, large, beautiful looking fruit/veg often has less flavour, so it is with onions. I use ordinary onions, about 2 inches or so in diameter, not the large watery ones. Its the flavour that matters, and water content. When the onion is fried, one is aiming to drive off as much water as possible, this intensifies the onion flavour, helps to break down the starch, and to produce a sweetness. Always include the hard bit next to the root, it is full of onion flavour.

HTH
cheers
Waaza

[jw46]

Quote

I stipulated 'medium-sized' onions to distiguish them from large (Spanish) onions, or whatever you might call them. Like so much other produce, large, beautiful looking fruit/veg  often has less flavour, so it is with onions.

Here in the states they might be called "Boiler Onions" much more intense onion flavor than the Walla Walla sweet, or Vidalia onions which are much better eaten raw on burgers or something..

[waaza]

jw46, on Sep 2 2005, 01:01 AM, said:

Quote

I stipulated 'medium-sized' onions to distiguish them from large (Spanish) onions, or whatever you might call them. Like so much other produce, large, beautiful looking fruit/veg  often has less flavour, so it is with onions.

Here in the states they might be called "Boiler Onions" much more intense onion flavor than the Walla Walla sweet, or Vidalia onions which are much better eaten raw on burgers or something..

thanks, jw,

I'll add that to my list of US/UK translations. It is unfortuate for me they are called 'boiler onions', as I hate the taste/smell of boiled onions. It may be one reason why I strive to perfect the 'golden onion' stage in Indian cooking, I dislike the 'green onion' taste with a passion, it seems to pervade the whole dish.

thanks again
Waaza
ps its a shame we don't get to know the names of the varieties we buy, it would make life a little simpler, don't you reckon?

[Grub]

Ducksredux, on Jul 21 2005, 06:10 PM, said:

The meat was a bit stringy but not tough at all.  The meat had some flavor but the sauce little.  I also managed to burn Suvir's spinach and potato red onion thingee and make his cumin rice way mushy.  My wife bought ice cream to cheer me up.

Hey, Ducksredux -- I came across a recipe on the beeb website, for a Duck Vindaloo, which made me think of you:

Madhur Jaffrey's Duck Vindaloo with Spinach, Ginger and Green Chillies

Of course, with the result I had with Waaza's Vindaloo recipe, I think I'd much rather try his Duck Vindaloo recipe, even over Jaffrey's -- but I think she knows her way around a kitchen too, heheh.

At any rate, whatever you try, report back okay?

Cheers.