[Hiroyuki]

First the definitions:
There is no clear definition of Kanto or Kansai. Generally speaking, Kanto includes Tokyo, Kanagawa, Chiba, Saitama, Gunma, Ibaraki, and Tochigi, while Kansai includes Osaka, Kyoto, Hyogo, Shiga, Nara, and Wakayama.
The point is that the center of Kanto is Tokyo and that of Kansai is Osaka.

As you may know, there are great cultural differences between these two areas. Let me give you some examples.

1. In Kanto, MacDonald's is abbreviated as Makku (マック in Katakana); in Kansai, Makudo (マクド in Katakana).

Access the site and see the map of Japan:
http://weekly.freeml.../hamburger.html
See how each prefecture is colored.
Orange: Prefecture where they say Makudo
Green: Prefecture where they say Makku
Yellow: Prefecture where they say both Makudo and Makku

2. Access the site and scroll down to see the last two photos placed side by side:
http://www.geocities...nbei/donbei.htm
The left one shows the soup of the Kansai version of the instant udon called Don Bei; the right one the Kanto version. You can see that the soup of the Kanto version is darker.
In Kanto, strong (koikuchi) soy sauce is mainly used and bonito is mainly used to make soup stock.
In Kansai, light (usukuchi) soy sauce is mainly used and kelp is mainly used to make soup stock.

[Hiroyuki]

In Kanto, the word niku (meat) is associated with pork; in Kansai, beef.
Thus, in Kanto, niku man means pork manju; in Kansai, the same manju is called buta man; niku man would mean beef manju.
In Kanto, the meat in niku jaga is pork, while in Kansai, it is beef.

Average household spending for beef and pork (2000)
Kanto: 19,776 yen for beef and 22,209 yen for pork
Kansai: 43,418 yen for beef and 20,110 yen for pork
from here
http://ku0811.hp.inf...pagekansai.html
(Japanese only)

[melonpan]

Hiroyuki, on Nov 12 2004, 02:51 AM, said:

Average household spending for beef and pork (2000)
Kanto:  19,776 yen for beef and 22,209 yen for pork
Kansai:  43,418 yen for beef and 20,110 yen for pork

huh. total spending for niku in kanto was 41985 yen and 63528 in kansai.

do people eat less vegetables (or more meat) in kansai? or maybe chicken and fish is eaten more in kanto?

20000+ yen difference in meat spending is a lot...

[ankomochi]

Hiroyuki, on Nov 12 2004, 03:51 AM, said:

In Kanto, the word niku (meat) is associated with pork; in Kansai, beef.
Thus, in Kanto, niku man means pork manju; in Kansai, the same manju is called buta man; niku man would mean beef manju.
In Kanto, the meat in niku jaga is pork, while in Kansai, it is beef.

Hiroyuki-san! I had no idea! There is no distinction between Pork Man and Beef Man in Kanto? Beef Man exists in Tokyo? What do you call them? In Kanto, you use pork for Nikujaga? Do you also use pork for Niku Udon? That's very interesting!

I also noticed that Sukiyaki in Kanto is different from Kansai style Sukiyaki. Kanto version is darker than Kansan's. Kanto's Sukiyaki has lot more liquid or soup than Kansai version.

[torakris]

In another thread we also discussed that deep fried fish paste patties that go into oden are called tempura in Kansai and ~~ten (the ~~ being the name of whatever is inside, ie gobo-ten) in Kanto.

My new next door neighbor just came here from Osaka about 6 months ago and is still lamenting the fact that you can't find takoyaki on every street corner! and when you can find them they are ridiculously expensive....

[torakris]

the type of fish eaten is different as well:

Japan is not one homogeneous consumer market. There are distinct regional differences with regard to food preferences. For example, annual per-capita consumption of tuna and salmon is nearly 50% higher in the Kanto or Eastern regions (9.2 kg) of Japan versus the Kansai or Western regions (6.3 kg). In contrast, per capita consumption of sea bream and flounder in the Kansai region (4.2 kg) is 90% more than what is consumed in the Kanto region (2.2 kg).

from
http://webapps.dfait...1955&language=E

[torakris]

and the ozouni thread is definitely worth a read:
http://forums.egulle...st=0&p=449582&#
this dish really shows the regional differences at their best.

[Hiroyuki]

melonpan, on Nov 13 2004, 05:18 AM, said:

Hiroyuki, on Nov 12 2004, 02:51 AM, said:

Average household spending for beef and pork (2000)
Kanto:  19,776 yen for beef and 22,209 yen for pork
Kansai:  43,418 yen for beef and 20,110 yen for pork

huh. total spending for niku in kanto was 41985 yen and 63528 in kansai.

do people eat less vegetables (or more meat) in kansai? or maybe chicken and fish is eaten more in kanto?

20000+ yen difference in meat spending is a lot...

Here are some of my findings:
According to http://osaka.yomiuri...2003/031112.htm,
the monthly (annual?) per-capita expenditure on ready-made food (nakashoku) in 2002 was 8,435 yen in Kansai and 8,825 yen in Kanto, and the expenditure for eating out was 13,300 yen and 16,992 yen, respectively. Kansai exceeds Kanto in staple foods such as rice and bread, meat, and sea food while Kanto exceeds Kansai in fruit and vegetables.

According to http://osaka.yomiuri...2004/040909.htm,
the spending on chicken per household last year was the highest in Kyushu, followed by Kinki (almost the same as Kansai) at 13,051 yen and Kanto at 9,783 yen.

[Hiroyuki]

ankomochi, on Nov 13 2004, 06:43 AM, said:

Hiroyuki, on Nov 12 2004, 03:51 AM, said:

In Kanto, the word niku (meat) is associated with pork; in Kansai, beef.
Thus, in Kanto, niku man means pork manju; in Kansai, the same manju is called buta man; niku man would mean beef manju.
In Kanto, the meat in niku jaga is pork, while in Kansai, it is beef.

Hiroyuki-san! I had no idea! There is no distinction between Pork Man and Beef Man in Kanto? Beef Man exists in Tokyo? What do you call them? In Kanto, you use pork for Nikujaga? Do you also use pork for Niku Udon? That's very interesting!

I also noticed that Sukiyaki in Kanto is different from Kansai style Sukiyaki. Kanto version is darker than Kansan's. Kanto's Sukiyaki has lot more liquid or soup than Kansai version.

I was born in Tokyo and was there until thirty, so I usually identify myself as a Kanto man. I myself has never eaten, seen, or heard of beef man. A quick google search tells me that there are such things as gyuu man (beef man) but I don't know whether they are popular in Tokyo.
Of course, we DO use pork to make nikujaga and niku udon. I was surprised when I learned that Kansai people used beef to make nikujaga. I thought "Mottainai!" (lit. What a waste!). When I was a child, beef was such a luxury item.

As you say, Kansai and Kanto style Sukiyaki are quite different. Kansai people first fry only beef with soy sauce and sugar in the pan and they don't use warishita (type of soup stock).

[Hiroyuki]

torakris, on Nov 13 2004, 08:46 AM, said:

the type of fish eaten is different as well:

Japan is not one homogeneous consumer market. There are distinct regional differences with regard to food preferences. For example, annual per-capita consumption of tuna and salmon is nearly 50% higher in the Kanto or Eastern regions (9.2 kg) of Japan versus the Kansai or Western regions (6.3 kg). In contrast, per capita consumption of sea bream and flounder in the Kansai region (4.2 kg) is 90% more than what is consumed in the Kanto region (2.2 kg).

from
http://webapps.dfait...1955&language=E

Have you ever heard of buri bunka ken (buri culture area) and sake bunka ken (salmon culture area)?
Japan is divided into these two distinct areas. The former corresponds to West Japan, the latter to East Japan.
http://www.pref.toya...shu/index2.html
Scroll down and look at the map of Japan under (3). You can see that the Fossa Magna divides Japan into the two areas.

[Hiroyuki]

It's only recently that I have learned the following:

1. Udon with aburaage is called kitsune udon in both areas.
2. Soba with aburaage is called kitsune soba in Kanto and tanuki soba in Kansai.
3. In Kanto, udon with tenkasu and soba with tenkasu are called tanuki udon and tanuki soba, respectively.
In Kansai, tenkasu is offered free of charge and, therefore, there is no such thing as kitsune soba or tanuki udon.

[helenjp]

Quote

no such thing as kitsune soba or tanuki udon.

Slander!!! There certainly was "tanuki udon" etc. in Osaka when I was a student there...er....25 years ago! How could I forget something so cheap and tasty!

[Hiroyuki]

helenjp, on Nov 14 2004, 04:25 PM, said:

Quote

no such thing as kitsune soba or tanuki udon.

Slander!!! There certainly was "tanuki udon" etc. in Osaka when I was a student there...er....25 years ago! How could I forget something so cheap and tasty!

OK, I admit that my preceding post was much of a generalization and quite misleading, and I failed to comment on the Kyoto version of tanuki udon. I'll submit another post in a day or two.

[Hiroyuki]

First, the Kyoto versions of tanuki udon and tanuki soba
http://www10.ocn.ne....9ab/tesima.html
The first photo in the link shows the Kyoto version of tanuki udon.
In Kyoto, tanuki udon and tanuki soba are udon and soba with their soup thickened with starch and with sliced aburaage on top.

In Osaka, udon and soba with tenkasu on top are called haikara (ハイカラ) udon and haikara soba, respectively, or simply tenkasu udon and tenkasu soba.
In Osaka, tenkasu is served free of charge at many shops. At these shops, there is no specific name for udon or soba with tenkasu on top.

In Kanto, the word kitsune refers to aburaage and tanuki refers to tenkasu. Thus, kitsune udon and kitsune soba are udon and soba with kitsune on top, respectively, and tanuki udon and tanuki soba are udon and soba with tenkasu on top, respectively.
In Osaka, the word kitsune refers to udon with aburaage on top and tanuki refers to soba with aburaage. People there simply say kitsune (not kitsune udon) and tanuki (not tanuki soba).

References (all in Japanese only):
http://www.geocities...50/kitsune.html
http://weekly.freeml...kitutanu02.html
http://ja.wikipedia....%81%AC%E3%81%8D
http://osaka.yomiuri...2004/040930.htm
http://www.tourism.c...ta/taboo06.html
http://www2.odn.ne.j...9_06/99_06.html

And, there are some exceptions to everything, I think.
So, helen, what do you say? Any comments highly appreciated.

[Hiroyuki]

Some say that those buns that are called melonpan in Kanto are called sunrise in Kansai and melonpan differ from sunrise.

http://members3.jcom..._vs_sunrise.htm
(Japanese only)
The first four buns shown in this link are sold as sunrise, not melonpan, and the last bun, shown in the top and section views, is sold as a melonpan.

There is much more information about the difference between these two types of buns, but in Japanese only:
http://weekend.nikke...868k000_20.html
I will post more information when I have time.

[Hiroyuki]

Do you eat tempura with Worcester sauce?
My brother-in-law, who was born and bred in Osaka, does.
This is another difference between Kanto and Kansai, or should I say, East Japan and West Japan.
http://weekend.nikke...85bm000_22.html
(Japanese only)
I had never dreamed of doing this until my sister married an Osaka man.

[torakris]

Hiroyuki, on Dec 1 2004, 06:25 PM, said:

Do you eat tempura with Worcester sauce?
My brother-in-law, who was born and bred in Osaka, does.
This is another difference between Kanto and Kansai, or should I say, East Japan and West Japan.
http://weekend.nikke...85bm000_22.html
(Japanese only)
I had never dreamed of doing this until my sister married an Osaka man.

I have never heard this before....

eeww..........

tempura and worchestire sauce?????

[torakris]

I have never heard of sunrise before....
I am interested to hear more.

[melonpan]

i had noticed the nikkei articles before when you posted about the article on yaki mikan. im so glad you might post more on this.

[Hiroyuki]

As the first map in the following link shows,
http://weekend.nikke...869b000_11.html
people in Shiga, Kyoto, Hyogo, Nara, and Wakayama (which are all in Kansai), as well as people in Okayama, Hiroshima, and Ehime, call the buns that we usually call melonpan 'sunrise' (pronounced san-rai-zu by many and san-rai-su by some).
The reason why Osaka in Kansai is an exception is that Kobeya, a major bakery in Osaka, left the 'sunrise alliance' in early stages of its corporate strategies for expanding its business operations to Kanto, according to this:
http://www.joho-kyot.../zuihitu011.htm

To make matters more complicated, there is another type of bun called melonpan in Kansai, shown in the last two photos in the link I previously posted http://members3.jcom..._vs_sunrise.htm , a rugby ball-shaped bun with shiro an (white anko) filling and topped with sponge cake dough before baking.

See the second map of the first link in this post:
http://weekend.nikke...869b000_11.html
This map shows the percentage of respondents in each prefecture who answered yes to the question, "Do you have melonpan (of this type) in your area?".
You can see that more than 60% of the respondents in Kyoto and Shiga answered yes.

To make matters even more complicated, in Hiroshima prefecture, they call the buns that we usually call melonpan 'koppepan'. (Koppe comes from the French word 'coupe').
http://ww4.tiki.ne.j...say/essay06.htm
Scroll down and look at the three photos.
The bun on the left is usually called koppepan, but is called ajitsuke pan (flavored bread) in Hiroshima.
The middle one is usually called melonpan, but is called koppepan in Hiroshima (and sunrise in some Kansai and other prefectures, as I described earlier).
The left one is called melonpan in Hiroshima and in some Kansai and other prefectures, and cannot usually be found in other regions of Japan.

Confused? Me too! I am beginning to regret that I have started this thread.

Just for a change, why not take a look at 66 different melonpan:
http://www.asahi-net...elon/melon.html
You can see such silly melonpan as apple and strawberry melonpan.

[Hiroyuki]

Have any of you ever heard of conchas (shells in English) in Mexico? They are said to be like melonpan in Japan.

[torakris]

Thank you for posting all of that information.
Yesterday after reading your first post I asked my friend from Osaka if she had ever heard of sunrise and she had no idea what it was. I explained it to her and she said she had never heard of it. Minutes later we ran into a friend who just recently moved here from Kobe and she got a big smile when we mentioned it, of course she knew what it was....

[Hiroyuki]

Impressive. You got good neighbors!

***
Have any of you tried this product from Kewpie?
http://www.kewpie.co...ce_2003_35.html
Melonpan-Fuu Toast Bread!

The following link http://members3.jcom...n/my_melon3.htm
explains how to use this product.
Just spread it thin on a slice of bread and heat it in the toaster oven for three minutes.
This melon-flavored product adds crispy texture to the bread.

If you have time to make melonpan, how about this product?:
Melonpan Mix Ko
http://members3.jcom...n/my_melon1.htm
It's sold for 480 yen and makes ten melonpan. It's not melon-flavored. (Not all melonpan are melon-flavored.)

[Hiroyuki]

Geographically, the Fossa Magna divides Japan into two parts, West Japan (Nishi Nihon) and East Japan (Higashi Nihon).

Culturally speaking, however, the border between the two Japans is not that simple. It differs from one cultural item to another, as follows:

1. Niku-jaga (meat and potato stew): Beef or pork?
W: Beef
E: Pork
Border: Toyohashi city, Aichi prefecture
2. Eels: Hara-biraki (belly-opened) or se-biraki (back-opened)?
W: Belly-opened
E: Back-opened
Border: Same as above
3. Sukiyaki: Made with sugar and soy sauce or with warishita (special soup stock)
W: Sugar and soy sauce
E: Warishita
Border: Same as above
4. Udon soup: Kelp-based, light soy sauce or bonito-based, strong soy sauce
W: Kelp-based, light soy sauce
E: Bonito-based, strong soy sauce
Border: Sekigahara, Shiga prefecture
5. Oden soup: Light or strong
W: Light
E: Strong
Border: Tenryu city, Shizuoka prefecture

All of the places mentioned above are on the Pacific side of Japan. How about the Sea of Japan side?

In Toyama prefecture, there is a mountain called Kureha-yama (呉羽山), which divides the prefecture into two areas, Gosei (呉西) and Gotou (呉東). Interestingly, these two areas greatly differ from each other in climate, dialect, and food culture. Generally speaking, Gosei is considered part of West Japan while Gotou is considered part of East Japan.

I will post more information as soon as I find it.

[torakris]

where do you find this stuff!!??

waiting to hear more.

[Hiroyuki]

torakris, on Dec 9 2004, 08:01 AM, said:

where do you find this stuff!!??

waiting to hear more.

My first post is a very, very brief summary of about 20 different webpages.

It should be noted that this topic is highly controversial and may be provocative to some Japanese, especially the residents of Nagoya, Aichi prefecture, many of whom think that their city is an independent state.

One of my interesting findings thus far is that some Nagoya people use chicken instead of beef or pork in their niku-jaga.

[Hiroyuki]

The term takikomi gohan is used in Kanto while kayaku gohan is used in Kansai.
When I first heard kayaku gohan, I thought that kayaku meant gunpowder. In reality, kayaku means added condiment.
If I remember right, my mother roughly used the term maze gohan to mean takikomi gohan.

***
Made a minor correction: not gunpower but gunpowder.

This post has been edited by Hiroyuki: 12 December 2004 - 10:49 PM

[torakris]

Hiroyuki, on Dec 13 2004, 02:30 PM, said:

The term takikomi gohan is used in Kanto while kayaku gohan is used in Kansai.
When I first heard kayaku gohan, I thought that kayaku meant gunpower.  In reality, kayaku means added condiment.
If I remember right, my mother roughly used the term maze gohan to mean takikomi gohan.

that explains a lot....

occasionally I would see recipes for kayaku gohan and when I would ask what it was they say takikomi, so I had though it was just a kind of takikomi gohan.

[Hiroyuki]

While searching, I found this book. I think I'll buy it and post some interesting stories here.
http://www3.ocn.ne.j...okyo_osaka.html

[torakris]

Hiroyuki, on Dec 13 2004, 02:47 PM, said:

While searching, I found this book.  I think I'll buy it and post some interesting stories here.
http://www3.ocn.ne.j...okyo_osaka.html

Amazon marketplace has it for 100yen ($1), I might get it too.....