[albie]

I see where Sgnr. Mangieri, who had quite a local cult following but somehow managed to stay under the radar of most pizza fanatics, is going to open a place in NYC sometime in October. He is a native of Naples and he replicates exactly the Neapolitan tradtion he learned as an apprentice at some of Naples most renowned pizzerie.

[tommy]

i hesitate to post this, because i want this place all to myself.

perhaps the single most exciting pizza experience of my life, second only to, or i suppose tied with, anthony's pizza at his Point Pleasant shop (now closed).

they don't serve liquor, but will in the upcoming weeks. be prepared to wait. last night was opening night, and the whole world apparently knew.

http://www.app.com/a...1077339,00.html

you're welcome.

This post has been edited by tommy: 15 October 2004 - 06:37 AM

[Stone]

tommy, on Oct 15 2004, 08:36 AM, said:

i hesitate to post this, because i want this place all to myself.

perhaps the single most exciting pizza experience of my life, second only to, or i suppose tied with, anthony's pizza at his Point Pleasant shop (now closed). 

they don't serve liquor, but will in the upcoming weeks.  be prepared to wait.  last night was opening night, and the whole world apparently knew.

http://www.app.com/a...1077339,00.html

you're welcome.

You want to just tell us where this new place is? The website you linked to, the Jersey Shore's largest resource, is, not surprisingly, blank. (I would have expected at least a picture of salt water taffy and/or Lee Press-On Nails.)

[tommy]

c'mon kid it ain't blank. try again.

Una Pizza Napoletana is located at 349 E. 12th St., New York; (212) 477-9950. Hours: Open starting at 5 p.m. Thursday and Friday and at noon Saturday and Sunday until, as always, "sold out of fresh dough."

[snausages2000]

Based on a visit yesterday afternoon, a couple thoughts about Una Pizza Napoletana:

1) They're serving one of the best pies in New York. A case could be made that it's the best crust in New York.

2) They're serving the most expensive pizza in New York. $16.95 for a 12", thin crust pie with a couple dollups of tomato and mozzarella. Since take-out isn't really a viable option with a whole pie, you're actually looking at $21.50 for a single serving, including tax and 15% tip. I believe that's significantly more than even Franny's in Park Slope which, to this point, held the high-price throne.

I split the pie with another person, probably the equivalent of a single typical NY slice each, and was left so hungry we went out and got a second lunch immediately afterwards.

I think I'd have to spend $30 on their pizza to get enough food.

I'm sure the ingredients in U.P.N.'s pie are superior to most places and the fact that they're all crafted according to exacting standards by the owner is certainly worth a premium, but I have a hard time imagining that people will be willing to pay this much for pizza when there are abundant alternatives in town that are 90% as good, but 10% the price.

Melampo and Momofuku are two examples of NYC vendors serving high-quality versions of traditionally affordable food, namely sandwiches and ramen soup, at higher than average prices within their genre. Yet their mark-up has always seemed reasonable, maybe 10-15% higher than the category average. I'd say U.P.N. is 50-75% higher than average.

Is a small serving of dough, cheese, tomato, olive oil, and salt worth $21.50?

[bpearis]

While the NY Pizza Survey guys were at Arturo's, I went with a friend to Una Pizza Napoletana, which opened on Thursday. A Manhattan branch of the lauded Jersey spot, these guys are serious about their pizza and they adhere to strict Neapolitan rules about what pizza is. (Slice NY scanned their brochure which details the care and extreme lengths they go to make authentic pizza.) When they run out of dough, they close for the evening, and they're only open from Thursday to Sunday.

The space (on 12th between 1st and 2nd) is small and sparcely decorated. White walls with framed old b/w pictures haphazardly hung, and lighting that I thought was way too harsh. Maybe seven tables -- all marble tops, which seem a little cold.

But the focus is obviously on the pizza and the wood-burning oven that was constantly being filled. There are only four kinds of pizza available, all variations of main ingredients San Marzano tomatoes, buffalo mozzerella, evoo, sea salt and basil; though the Filetti has cherry tomatoes instead of the canned San Marzano. Like Franny's the pizzas are about 12" and are left up to you to cut with a knife and fork. This is all they sell. No salads, appetizers; no bowls of olives. No liquor liscence yet but a nice selection of Italian sodas.

We gt there around 5:30 (they open at 5pm) and the place was full, so we shared a table with another couple. We split the Margherita. We noticed after we ordered that almost nobody had their food yet when we sat down. It took over an hour for our pizza to come. I think this was because a) all the orders must have come at once and b) proprietor Anthony Mangieri seemed to wait until the oven was volcano hot till he would put a pizza in.

This was evident once our pizza came -- this is some crust. Nice char, the right amount of puffiness (oven spring?) with perhaps the most flavor of any pizza crust I've ever had. (They let their dough rise at room temperature for 24 hours, so says the brouchure.) The toppings seemed secondary to the crust, olive oil and sea salt which were the primary flavors. I would have liked just a little more tomato.

This is good pizza made with extreme care... and you pay for it. $16.95 per pizza that I don't think would be filling for your average person (certainly not for two people). While I appreciate the craft, I would much rather travel to Franny's, and don't see myself returning to Una Pizza Napoletana anytime soon. It was very good, just not $16.95-and-an-hour-plus to get it good. I'm glad I went, though.

In other pizza news, Fornino in Williamsburg finally opens on Wednesday, October 20. I live in the neighborhood and am hoping for great things.

This post has been edited by bpearis: 18 October 2004 - 10:02 AM

[slkinsey]

Nice review of Una Pizza Napoletana in today's $25 and under:

Quote

The main attraction at Una Pizza is the dough, the crust. The 12-inch pizzas, served whole, are made from a dough unsullied by commercial yeast; a piece of leftover dough, salt, flour, water and 36 hours of rising time are all that go into it.

Quote

When you do dig in with the fork and flimsy serrated knife provided, you may notice that the pizza's charred bottom leaves a dusting of soot on the plate. The crust is crisp in spots, tender in others, with an appealing elasticity and a reassuring saltiness. The long fermentation imparts the dough with a subtle sourness that gives the pie a well-rounded, complex flavor.

The review also noted that, at 17 bucks a pop, it's the most expensive pizzeria around. Still... I know I have to go there.

[bpearis]

And in the Voice, Robert Sietsema visits both Una Pizza Napoletana and Williamsburg's Fornino.

[slkinsey]

bpearis, on Nov 17 2004, 10:37 AM, said:

And in the Voice, Robert Sietsema visits both Una Pizza Napoletana and Williamsburg's Fornino.

Here's a quote for posterity:

Quote

While Fornino jovially pursues its own pizza mythology, Una Pizza Napoletana is more fiercely iconoclastic, chasing the true pie of Naples with religious zealotry. . . . The menu offers only four pies, each approximately 11 inches in diameter ($16.96), based on Neapolitan models and made with unimpeachable ingredients: organic flour, Sicilian sea salt, imported mozzarella, and San Marziano tomatoes. A generous dose of green olive oil is poured on après-oven.

[Pizza Napoletana]

This is my first message on egullet, and I have decided to start with this subject. I am Neapolitan but currently living in UK. I can say to be one of the most expert people on the pizza napoletana subject (according many people and also to the producer of the most famous flour for that product). I am also writing a book on the subject.

Anyway, I have heard about Una Pizza Napoletana, thus on my trip to NYC few weeks back, to attend the Pizza show, I decided to give it a try. I have to say that I was a bit disappointed by the pizza itself, but impressed by the passion and dedication of the owner/pizzaiolo.
Firstly, I like to point out that he was not born in Naples (like stated in the first post), but he has indeed spent some times in the city to learn about the subject.

However he is probably doing the best effort in NYC, even thought I have experienced a slightly better pizza in Pittsburgh at "Il PIzzaiolo".

His quest for a natural leavened product is indeed right, but unfortunatelly at the moment is following a slightly different process from the original one.

To conclude, I believe he is offering a good pizza, but there is still a lot of room for improvement.

[cibo susci]

The best f ing pizza I have ever had

[Orik]

let me soften the reply I posted elsewhere.


What a f'ing rip off. $50 for two slabs of flatbread with tiny bits of toppings on them that would have been better of if they were added after baking. (including a bottle of water and tip). We left very hungry and displeased.

I can appreciate the quality of the dough and the ingredients used for toppings, but this was a case where the sum was significantly less than its ingredients (and certainly the food cost was next to nothing) - the very wide area with no toppings was slightly over baked, while the area under the toppings was wet and soggy. There was no sauce to speak of.

New York must be one of the only places in ther world with a large enough concentration of wealthy suckers to sustain a business like this, which isn't very good at what it's trying to do, but charges as if it were.

[cibo susci]

Its is ok if you do not get it. So pizza hut is there for you.

[Orik]

cibo susci, on Jan 24 2005, 08:55 AM, said:

Its is ok if you do not get it.  So pizza hut is there for you.

no, I get it all right.

[snausages2000]

Una Pizza is absurdly over-priced.
No matter how refined your pizza-palette.

Any chance the guy will drop his prices?
Have the grumblings been heard?

[slkinsey]

snausages2000, on Jan 24 2005, 04:10 PM, said:

Una Pizza is absurdly over-priced.
No matter how refined your pizza-palette.

Any chance the guy will drop his prices?
Have the grumblings been heard?

I'm sure he'll hear the grumblings and drop his prices just as soon as he can catch his breath from having so many customers he has to beat them away with a stick. I won't hold my breath.

In other words: different things have different values to different people.

[bpearis]

He can't lower prices, it's the only way he can afford to only be open four days a week.

[Orik]

No, the price point is just one aspect of it. The other aspect is that it's just not particularly tasty. (Also, I can't get over the thought that the "sauce" looks like it was sneezed onto the pie)


b -- maybe he should double prices and only be open twice a week.

This post has been edited by Orik: 24 January 2005 - 04:24 PM

[slkinsey]

Different strokes for different folks, as they say... Some people are into the whole crustcentric, minimal toppings thing and some people aren't. Luckily, there are enough choices in the City to please most everyone.

[Orik]

slkinsey, on Jan 24 2005, 08:29 PM, said:

Different strokes for different folks, as they say...  Some people are into the whole crustcentric, minimal toppings thing and some people aren't.  Luckily, there are enough choices in the City to please most everyone.

Yes, but if you ignore for a second the fact that there's a dish called pizza and that there are various schools of preparation, and so on, and just imagine that someone opened a shop selling good flatbread for $17 a pop (and you have to wait quite a while to get it), do you think it would have many clients?

[tommy]

he's (apparently) doing a very traditional pizza. haven't been to naples to sample the (few) places that likely still produce pizza like this, but i'm guessing this version isn't too far off.

as far as price, it's 'spensive. although i had dinner there for 20 bucks, and enjoyed it. 20 bucks for dinner in NYC is pretty good. for me.

if he starts selling wine, which is the plan as far as i know, i'd hope he'd keep the list priced *extremely* reasonably. otherwise i'll likely return only when not drinking wine, which would be, oh, about never.

[Orik]

If you've never been to naples (and I believe, although I'm not certain, that he grew up quite a long way away from there too), what difference does it make whether it's traditional or not? there are many traditional foods that suck, or were created to be affordable, like bread with a little bit of toppings on it

Anyway, I think they just got their license, so no more $20 dinners for you, unless you stick to drinking the Kool-Aid.

[slkinsey]

In re to traditional Neapolitan pizza... Unlike some, I have been to Naples and had the "real thing." Una Pizza Napoletana is probably the closest thing we have in the City. For a good illustration, those curious might compare the picture of a pizza Margherita from Una Pizza Napoletana in New York Metro and one from Da Michele in Naples snapped by our own MobyP. They look very much the same to my eye.


To add to the dialogue, here is a snippet from Arthur Schwartz's The Food Maven Diary:

Quote

[The pizza at Una Pizza Napoletana is as] Neapolitan in character as you are ever going to get outside Naples. What does that mean? The dough has real bread flavor, which Anthony gets by using a dough starter, instead of commercial yeast. It isn’t crisp, except for the crust on the “frame” as Neapolitans call the puffy edge. But it is thin on the bottom. It’s sparingly topped, not laden with stuff. And it has a pure tomato flavor – not an overcooked sauce flavor, as too many New York pizzas have. . . . Also in the Neapolitan mode, Antonio bakes his pies in a brick, wood-burning oven, and I must say that the charry, smoky flavor that the dough gets from the wood is not as subtle as some – it is deliciously evident.

As for the price, that's up to everyone to decide for themselves. It's a fact that, for some people, "really good flatbread" in a sit-down restaurant will never be worth what Mangieri charges. Clearly, for many it is worth it. But, at the same time, for many the paradigm of pizza as an inexpensive food, or as a food in which the toppings are the most important feature, will never be changed. Similarly, for many people, sushi can never be worth $350.

Rather than bog this thread down with any further debate on whether "pizza can be worth seventeen bucks," I'll ask those who are interested in pursuing this discussion to do so in another thread. I will observe, though, that there is already ample evidence that people of different minds on the value of a certain foodstuff are unlikely to find common ground.

[Orik]

Let's restate then:

At any price, it would still not be a food item that I would go out of my way for. Traditional? possibly, I wouldn't know. But it would have been better (as in better flavored, better textured) if it were non-traditional. This is not to say that they're not doing a good job at replicating something that almost none of us have tasted, just that the something they're replicating isn't great.

That's all.

(and those who know me know that I don't have much of a problem spending $$$$ on good food)

[jogoode]

Yesterday I was one of the diners who packed Una Pizza Napoletana. Just before 5pm, when it opens, I was waiting in front of the restaurant with two other parties, and by the time my order had been taken, the restaurant's eight or so tables were filled.

There is a wine list now: three whites and three reds. Four of the six are offered by the bottle and by the glass, the other two, just by the bottle. A few customers had brought wine, not realizing that restaurant now had its license. Corkage is $15. If you don’t want wine –I for one don’t like wine with pizza – there’s gassosa, limonata, and other Italian sodas.

The restaurant’s interior is modest, a narrow room whose focal point is Mangieri’s glowing wood-fired brick oven. For all the daunting ideology surrounding this pizza shop -- the takeout menu is more a pamphlet describing the ingredients and methods employed by Mangieri for his pizze than a list of food items; the four food items don’t take up much space – there’s no pretension. The waiter doesn’t offer a spiel; once he sees you’ve tried the pizza, he asks how you like it. From what I observed, about half the customers were trying the pizza for the first time.

I am not wealthy, nor do I consider myself a sucker, but I will definitely return to Una Pizza Napoletana. I had the margherita, and it was much more than $17 flatbread. It was not perfect: the center of my 12-inch pizza (a circle with a diameter of about two inches) was pretty soggy. But the rest of the crust was amazing. What flavor! It had the sour tang of char, even though not all of the crust was charred. Some parts were chewy, while others were crunchy. The topping – a pool of San Marzanos, buffalo mozzeralla, and EVOO – was plentiful and intensely delicious. For it and a limonata, I paid $25. A great dinner.

[snausages2000]

But, JJ what did you really have for dinner?

Surely you weren't full from your $25 slice and soda.

You must have eaten something else, later that same night.

I'm hungry just thinking about how hungry I was after
I ate at UPN...

[slkinsey]

jogoode, on Feb 6 2005, 06:31 PM, said:

[The crust] had the sour tang of char, even though not all of the crust was charred. . .

I tend to find that charring imparts more of a bitter flavor than a sour flavor. The "sour tang" you describe probably has more to do with the fact that Mangieri uses a natural leaven and a very long fermentation. Those lactobacilli are doing their thing.

[docsconz]

Orik, on Jan 25 2005, 11:41 AM, said:

Let's restate then:

At any price, it would still not be a food item that I would go out of my way for. Traditional? possibly, I wouldn't know. But it would have been better (as in better flavored, better textured) if it were non-traditional. This is not to say that they're not doing a good job at replicating something that almost none of us have tasted, just that the something they're replicating isn't great.

That's all.

(and those who know me know that I don't have much of a problem spending $$$$ on good food)

I have not had their pizza so cannot comment on how good it is or isn't, but if they are trying to replicate a real neapolitan Pizza, that I can comment on. I have never had better pizza than I have had in and around Naples. Perhaps it is a matter of expectation. These pizzas are not fancy. They don't come with loads of luxe ingredients, but they are the models of simplicity and the importance of top quality ingredients. So while their version may or may not be great, what they are trying to replicate, IMO, most certainly is.

[jogoode]

snausages2000, on Feb 7 2005, 01:39 PM, said:

But, JJ what did you really have for dinner?

Surely you weren't full from your $25 slice and soda.

You must have eaten something else, later that same night.

I'm hungry just thinking about how hungry I was after
I ate at UPN...

You're right, snausages2000! I went to Dumpling House at 8pm; what better way to counteract an expensive pizza than with a $4 dessert of dumplings and sesame pancake with beef.

I have no problem going to a restaurant and not leaving full. Some people do. I'd rather eat small meals all night than, say, pay $175 for two hours of concentrated gorging at Per Se. If you go to Una Pizza expecting great pizza and keeping in mind that you'll probably need to have a second dinner later, then you'll leave happy. It's about the experience, not about getting full. (And anyway, is there anything wrong with a second dinner? )

slkinsey, on Feb 7 2005, 01:59 PM, said:

jogoode, on Feb 6 2005, 06:31 PM, said:

[The crust] had the sour tang of char, even though not all of the crust was charred. . .

I tend to find that charring imparts more of a bitter flavor than a sour flavor. The "sour tang" you describe probably has more to do with the fact that Mangieri uses a natural leaven and a very long fermentation. Those lactobacilli are doing their thing.

Yes, it was more of a sour tang. Unlike anything I've had.

[philadining]

Stopped by tonight and had a very similar experience to jj's reported above. Indeed the very center of my "filetti" was holding a small pool of fluid, probably an accumulation of olive oil along with some moisture from the fresh cherry tomatoes and fresh mozz. As a result, that part of the pizza was a bit damp, and suffering from the dreaded tip droop.

But it quickly left my mind as I became absolutely transfixed by the flavor and texture of this pizza, the small region of sogginess just one of several notes being sung. I didn't mind it one bit, and found myself mopping up the little slick on the plate with the drier portions of the crust.

It was absolutely delicious, and intoxicating, in that I couldn't have stopped if I wanted to, and probably would have used that little knife they give you to fend-off anyone that came too close... Those contrasts of chewy and crisp, soft and burnt, sour and salty were really spinning my head around.

And yes, $22 (before tip) for a smallish pizza and a couple of tiny sodas is ludicrous, but I'll happily spend it again. It doesn't feel like buying dinner - more like contributing to a charitable foundation for the research and perfection of crust. If that's what it takes....

I never thought I had a particularly small appetite, but that pizza and a little Gelato from il Laboritorio a few minutes later kept me happy all the way back to Philly. I didn't feel the need for more food.

And I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for consumer rebellion over the prices, I was about 10th in line about 15 minutes before they opened, and there were probably that many waiting when I left. And I expect to be in that line again the next time I get to NY.

edited for typos

This post has been edited by philadining: 02 July 2005 - 09:11 PM