[Bux]

Robert Brown:
Bux, I took it on myself to jump from the "Scarcity" thread to here since I am curious to know if you can remember the bouilliabaisse restaurant you went to in Marseilles. Some years ago we went to one Eli Zabar likes the most. It begins with a "B" I think and not on the port. But I don't have my Michelin handy. It would be fun to try and nail down one day the best half dozen or so bouilliabaisse restaurants along the coast. I guess Tetou in Golfe-Juan would get the most mentions. But a year and a half ago the foodie friend we took there trashed it because of what he perceived was the lack of quality of the fish and the purely decorative function of the tiny crabs. Irrespective of that, I believe I read that a liberal use of rascasse is a marker of a serious bouilliabaisse.

Coordinator comment: "Here" was the "Small Restaurants" thread, but I decided the subject was worth a thread of it's own. I've quoted Robert Brown's message and started the "Bouillabaisse" thread.
(Edited by Bux at 1:03 pm on Dec. 27, 2001)

[Bux]

Restaurants come and go and as for bouillabaisse, it may well be a dying art. Much of it is poorly served in touris restaurants, I suspect. The 2001 Michelin names 2 one star restaurants as keepers of the faith. Miramar, on the vieux port, is cited as the "reference." Michel-Brasserie des Catalans, around the point of the southern side of the old port and in a residential neighborhood, is "l'autre 'conservatoire.'" GaultMillau rated Miramar as a 14/20 and does not list Brasserie des Catalans at all. We lunched at Brasserie des Catalans. We did not make the reservations--much of this trip was hastily replanned at the last mimute when our friend in the Languedoc got sick and the British friends we had intended to meet suggested we meet them in Marseille if we still intended to come to France. It's all complicated and a long story. Suffice it to say, they were meeting old friends at this lunch as well and they made the reservation on the basis of past knowledge of the restaurant.

The last time I had bouillabaisse in Marseille was in the mid sixties, so it's hard for me to offer any comparative rating to my bouillabaisse. There was a tasty soup and a variety of, I believe, four fishes. I recall that it was served as a single course, which was a disappointment, but it was very good. I don't know why it doesn't get a mention in GM. In 1964, I remember having the soup first and then the fish on a separate plate. The "rules" of bouillabaisse were explained, but I forget them and suspect they vary anyway. As I recall there was the need to include not less than a specific number of fish and that certain fish were required and others accepted. My belief is that crustaceans are not traditional, although always found in haute cuisine versions of this dish.

To complete the record, I see Tétou also has one star and that Michelin notes their bouillabaisse as "fameuse," but as you imply, there are probably a lot of places worth trying along the coast between the two. They don't give research grants for that sort of thing, do they?

[robert brown]

Bux, I wish there were. There really should be one since going out for bouillibaisse provokes a lot of fellowship. Nonetheless, your research is at least getting the subject off to a good start.

[Bux]

I see it all now. From Marseille to Golfe-Juan in car with a We brake for Bouillabaisse bumper sticker.

[cabrales]

On the authenticy of bouillabaisse, certain restaurants have pledged to be more faithful to the utilization of fish, etc, under a so-called "Charter":

http://www.provencet....asp?id_adh=167

http://www.starchefs...h/article.shtml

While I have not yet visited the following restaurants, Miramar and Chez Michel are supposed to offer expensive, but appetizing, versions of bouillabaisse.  I am uncertain as to why Chez Michel is not part of the Charter.

Finally, have members visited the fish market in Marseilles?

(Edited by cabrales at 8:33 am on Dec. 28, 2001)

[Bux]

I'm always suspicious of groups that might be more interested in self promotion than historical accuracy or cultural preservation, but those are interesting links. I was surprised that Bandol or Cassis, didn't come up on the Star Chef site as the clear first choice concensus of wine to drink just on the basis of geography as well as flavor. Certainly at least along the Mediterranean, I would think a local wine is an absolute first choice for full appreciation of the setting and the fish. White or rosé would both work.

[Hank]

Miramar and Tetou serve wonderful and quite authentic Bouillabaisse but another restaurant I would like to mention is Bacon in Antibes. It is a bit more expensive than Tetou (also quite expensive) but since it is larger you do sit much more comfortably. Their fish has always been impecably fresh and their soup to which they add all the fish and safron potatoes is marvelous. I could easily make a meal out it by itself. For dessert they serve a berry fruit tart that makes me want to fly there right now. We usually order a bottle of Cassis and sometimes a Domaine Ott Blanc. (Lately though a bit too expensive) Both perfect with the Bouillabaisse.

[robert brown]

Hank, thanks for the report about Bacon. I only have had the bourride there. It was incredibly rich, like it went straight to my gall bladder. Delicious, of course. I will definitely give their boulliabaisse a go I always suspected it was good. It sounds like you hang out in those parts. La Bourride in Cros de Cagnes is a bad place. Loulou/La Reserve we like a lot for coquillage and simple grilled fish. The meat looks good, but never triend it. It's always grilled.  Charlot Ier always has good oysters; bouilliabaisse adequate. But the last time we went for langoustine, supposedly the start of the season, were not fresh to all three of us. July is the peak of the season for the local ones and we may have stopped in a bit too soon.

Speaking of the coast road between Antibes and Nice, we always enjoy getting cous-cous royale (and nothing but is made there) at La Gazelle d'Or. But phone first as they are quirky about opening up. We think, though, that the cous-cous at Dharkoum in Menton is slightly superior. Tajine is good there as well.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Hank - I always found the Bouillabaisse at Bacon to be a little "correct." It tastes fine but the place is a bit too refined to make a dish that needs that much digging into. I want to break out into a sweat when I eat a BB and Bacon isn't a sweaty kind of place. I think they also strain the broth too much. Part of the refinement. I much prefer a John Dory with olive oil, tomato and basil steamed in parchement there. I like Tetou much better for BB.

Robert - It's funny you brought up Loulou and eating meat there because I just wrote about the Cote de Boeuf there on the cooking board. But I've never been to either of those North African places and I have to try them. Have you ever been to Les Chaumieres on the Grand Corniche between Nice and Eze?  

[robert brown]

Steve, I been to La Chaumiere (aka around our house as " show me air and I'll show you life") several times. I have seen every nationality of Europe and lots of Monaco "residents" and gringoes, but never, ever a Frenchman. I take my fellow gringoes there because I figure they want to tie into a grilled piece of meat, usually steak, after being away from home for a while.  ( It is a nice change and they all enjoy the food). It is a formula place: Everyone gets served a basket of "crudites"; a dollop of duck and rabbit pate; prosciutto and melon;a salad with a creamy cheese dressing; I believe, and for dessert fruit, a "tarte tatin" or chocolate mousse with which they deposit on the table a big silver pot of "creme fraiche" to which you may help yourself to as much as you want. These dishes are uniformly decent. The main event is a decent, but not great, steak (12 oz?) comparable to our sirloin. Since you are a Lobel's devotee, you would probably not be enthralled, based on the most recent one I had, which was not on a par with the ones before. My favorite main course is the "cote d'agneau" that I imagine comes from Sisteron. It is a good-size specimen with a nice burned crust. It seems to be different than what we get here. Chicken is also available, but you have to call that morning to have it. But you should also call ahead for the lamb chop since one time that I went, they had sold the last one and were serving "gigot" instead. I believe they give you a baked potato with the meat course. Until two years ago, the only wine was a house wine, the stuff called "La Merenda", just like the famous, overrated restaurant near the flower market. Now they have a wine list that is small and overpriced. Not knowing they had switched to selling "better" wines, I asked if I could bring a bottle with me; they could not have cared less. What else? They have valet parking; most, but not all, seating is family style at long tables (lots of friends and family groups); I think they close Sundays and around November for vacation; it is better to sit on the covered veranda; the bathrooms are just beyond the kitchen; and the folks who run it are friendly. It is open only for dinner and is not mentioned in any of the major guidebooks, not even the Guide Ganthier. Does that help? Did you get my e-mail of a few days ago? I got a notice that delivery was delayed.

And how did that blue emoticon get in there?

(Edited by robert brown at 12:52 am on Jan. 7, 2002)

[Bux]

Quote

how did that blue emoticon get in there?

IkonCode seems not be fully debugged. Ever try multiple quotes in one post? I just learned in a post of mine elsewhere that " followed by ) will produce the winky smiley as sure as ; followed by ).

[Steve Plotnicki]

Robert - I have been to La Chaumiere a few times but not  in 6 years. But you describe it well. I never knew they served a lamb chop, just the steak and the leg of lamb. I always thought they were both a bit tough. But I thought it was always a fun place to go with a large party because of the way they serve the food family style. I sent a friend of mine there last summer and he loved it.  It was pretty expensive from what I remember.

As for La Meranda, are you speaking of pre or post Domenic Le Stanc? I ate there a few times when the Giusti family ran it and once after Domenic took over. Better for lunch than dinner. Do you go to Le Petitie Maison which is across the street from Alziari? What a crazy place that is. How about Josy Jo in Haut de Cagnes? It's very similar to Loulou, but with an emphasis on meat instead of fish. In fact Josy is the sister of Loulou's wife. But they make a great Magret grilled over wood. And yes I think I got your email. But you should try sending it again just in case.

[Clare Leaman]

We ate bouillabaisse at maybe half a dozen places along the coast between Nice and Marseilles last summer and were generally disappointed. Perhaps the best was at Miramar in Marseilles, but it still didn't approach anywhere near the platonic ideal I have in my head. And the service was shocking. My conclusion is that this is a dish, like cassoulet, best enjoyed at the kitchen table with friends.

Incidentally, the most enjoyable meals we had anywhere were off the 195F (as it then was) menu at Une Table Au Sud, right next to Miramar in the old port. Tasty Mediterranean food with plenty of twists on the norm, great room, charming service and an excellent wine list. What we didn't find in Marseilles were too many good places for casual dining, although the street food, bakeries and traiteurs were memorable.

[Steve Plotnicki]

A half a dozen Bouillabaisse's? How did you do it? It's like eating half a dozen cassoulets

I happen to agree with your comment that cassoulet is the type of dish that is best enjoyed at home. It's basically a stew and is no different than the Yiddish dish cholent or the North African dish Dafina. And Bouillabaisse should be the same. I mean what's the big deal about throwing fish in a pot with olive oil and spices? But unfortuately I think it's different. I think the flavor of a proper Bouillabaisse is too dependant on the way local ingedients taste to be replicated elsewhere. I've had counteless Bouillabaisse in other places and not a single one of them ever came close to replicating the flavor of any of the ones you can get on the coast.

The biggest problem is the lack of availability of the fish Rascasse outside of the coast. I don't know where you are but in the U.S. there is zero access to Rascasse. And it is the lowly Rascasse that gives Bouillabaisse (as well as Soupe de Poissons) it's unique flavor. It's the base fish in the preparation of the broth.<p>So if you know how to make one in the U.S. or U.K. that tastes like the indiginous version, please share your secret with us. I've seen some of the greatest chefs in the world fail at that task and resort to adding things like Pernod to spark up the broth.

[Bux]

There are two distinct bouillabaisses. One is the traditional true dish of Marseille and the region. The other is a fancy, usually urban, fish stew modeled after a composite of fish stews world over, and in chich the Provence/Cote d'Azur influence rarely predominates. The latter not only doesn't have racasse, but prides itself on the inclusion of all sorts of often expensive shell fish that are not traditional or at least not central to a true bouillabaisse. That said, there is really only one bouillabaisse, but like Champagne and Chablis, the name is often misappropriated for salesworthyness. Of course, post nouvelle cuisine is full of appropriated names--millefeuilles of three or four layers, capuccinos of seafood, etc. Perhaps we'll soon see a beef bouillabaisse in lieu of pot au feu.

(Edited by Bux at 11:18 am on Jan. 9, 2002)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Bux - That reminds of being in London at Books for Cooks. They have a small kitchen in the back where they serve lunch. That say, the entire staff was eating a chicken in what looked like a garlicky mayonaisse. When I asked them what it was they said "Chicken Bouillabaisse." It was just chicken boiled in a Provencal style broth with rouille on top,Voila. Anyway, when I say Bouillabaisse I mean the Real McCoy.

[Hank]

Steve, I absolutely agree with you about the Rascasse. The broth is just not the same without it. For my money though you can give me a couple of  heaping bowls of a great "soupe de poison" with good bread and some wine and you can forget about the fish. By the way, are you the same Steve that I have met twice up at Camp Taconic while visiting my grand children? If you are then I know that you are a wino but never realized that you are also a foodie. Loved your restaurant reviews and can honestly say that I agree with about 95% of what you said. (That's not bad) Hope that you post more reviews. Your style of writing is very "correct". Besides you the only other person I knew who ever used that word in that context was my father-in-law. Whenever he spoke about someone he liked and or admired he would say that that person was "very correct". Come to think of it he would also say that when I served him a special wine.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Henry - How are you? Yes I am the same Steve. Are you still drinking good wine? Too bad about Josh's dad. But he had the baby so I guess that made it easier for everyone.

Your point about Bouillabaisse vs Soupe de Possons is noted. The truth is that I can only eat a Bouillabaisse once or twice a year and I can eat Soupe de Poissons every week. I have never studied the broths side by side by I can recall that there is a difference in the broths and the broth for Bouillabaisse is more substantial. I have to check some recipes, or maybe someone who knows would pipe in. Thanks for the compliments about my writing style. Like I said, it's one New Yorker's point of view. We still need to get together and drink/eat. When are you coming into town? I have some older Burgundys that are burning a hole in my cellar.

[Bux]

Steve - That reminds me that I shouldn't make predictions. The more outlandish they are, the greater the likelihood, it's already been done.

Hank - I don't recall Steve's using the word "correct" to describe a meal or a restaurant's cooking, but that's a word I hear commonly used in France to describe a sort of faultless, but uninspired cuisine.

I'm more or less under the impression that soupe de poissons and the soup for bouillabaisse are much the same. Differences would be in the style of the restaurant or the quality of the restaurant. My impression could be off base. On the same subject, my understanding is that a bourride and a bouillabaisse differ mainly in that the former is served with aioli and the latter with rouille, but this may be a matter of sloppiness in restaurants that want to serve both with ease. Can anyone offer a more definitive opinion or reference.

My reference to "reference" drove me to the Larousse Gastronomic which lists several "bouillabaisses" unrelated to the one of this thread. Some are clearly adaptations such as "bouillabaisse de l'océan" and "bouillabaisse à la Parisienne, but there are two authentic provencal recipes that have nothing in common with the one we know. One is a dish of spinach and potatoes and the other a dish of potatoes in fish stock. Both have eggs added at the end. By the way rouille is never mentioned in the Larousse under bouillabaise.

[Clare Leaman]

I believe the main difference between bouillabaisse and bourride is that bourride is thickened with aioli whereas bouillabaisse, uniquely, is basically oil and water boiled rapidly together to achieve an emulsion. The bourrides I have tried have never contained tomatoes either.

In the end, I found restaurant bouillabaisse to be a complete disappointment, unlike bourride or matelote or cotriade, all of which I have greatly enjoyed on trips to France. All these places in Toulon or Marseilles or wherever, with access to the right ingredients, seemed to screw up the dish by being omitting or being stingy with the conger eel (my favourite part), serving badly cooked potatoes, not achieving a good emulsion, adding too much or too little saffron, being overcautious with the pepper, or whatever. Factor in the various constraints of restaurant service, and my feeling is that if your kitchen happened to be in the right location, you would do much better to return this preparation to its homely origins, make it lovingly and serve it casually, rather some in artful presentation which is briefly shown to the client and then whisked away to the other side of the restaurant, or even outside onto the street, as at Miramar.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Clare - Have you been to Tetou in Golfe Juan? It's the best one I've had. I took someone to dinner there about 3 years ago and I found them with their face no more than 4-5 inches over their soup bowl in a stupor inhaling the aroma from the broth. We had to nudge him back to reality. I think Bouillabbaisse, like Cassoulet, the yiddish dish Cholent or Pot au Feu has to do with making large amounts of it and being able to cook the broth for a long time. As the legend goes, and maybe there is truth to it, in the days when it weas hard to start a fire they spent lots of energy keeping the fire under a pot going (post vestal virgin.) So a Pot au Feu, had the benefit of having lots of meals cooked in it before being cleaned and the broth would get what the Jews call "tam" or  I guess in Frnech "bon gout." which in English translates to flavorful. I think Bouillabaisse is the same. If you fire up a huge vat of the broth in the morning and add fish all day long, by 9:00 at night that broth has taken on a life of it's own. I don't think you can achieve the same effect by making a single pot of the stuff. I think this is why Tetou's is better than the others. They must serve 200 servings a day if not more.

[Clare Leaman]

Thanks Steve, I haven't been to Tetou but I will try to next time I am in that part of the world. Funny isn't it how the dishes you mention are some of the most emotive in the culinary repertoire - don't get me started on cassoulet or cholent now...

[Steve Plotnicki]

Clare - When you go back, visit both Tetou and Bacon and compare their Bouillabaisse. They are within 3-4 miles of each other. People argue about whose is better. Bacon makes a very refined version which I assume has to do with excessive straining of the broth. Tetou's version is more robust.

As for my list of "emotive" dishes, those dishes are supposed to capture an entire culture in a pot aren't they? I mean cholent is a dish that came into being because you couldn't make a fire on the sabbath. But  you could put a pot of cholent on the fire before sundown on Friday and let it cook all night and it would be ready for Saturday lunch which is traditionally a meat meal in the Jewish religion. I mean how much more emotive can a dish be if it's what you eat after praying? It has to be a metaphor for everything about your way of life. Have you ever had the Moroccan Dafina or what they call Sabbath Bake? It's a cholent with a meat loaf stuffed with whole eggs and prunes that is wrapped in cloth and placed in the cholent to bake. Same principal.

Bouillabaisse is a dish that revolved around the workday of fisherman. In anticipation of the fisherman coming back to shore with their daily catch, someone set a pot of boiling broth on the beach. And when the fisherman came back with their catch, they threw their lunch into the pot.  A mixture of the land and sea. Just like their lives.

[robert brown]

Steve, our latest take on Tetou is that there are some shortcomings. We went with our pal from Rhode Island who really knows his fish and who felt that there was too much inferior fish in the bouilliabaisse. He also criticized the little crabs which were impossible to eat, even if they were there for flavoring. The good croutons and rouille may be a reason people think it's good. Prior to that we always enjoyed going there. So I suggest, Steve, that if everything falls into place, we do a survey and re-evaulation. Regardless, people who go there should consider starting with the tomatoes Provencal (one order for two) and when ordering the bouillabaisee one for two and even something like two for five. It also pays to pay the supplement for the addition of lobster.

I missed Mario on the Cote d'Azur special, but my wife caught it. In it you can watch the chefs at Bacon prepare their bouilliabaisse. Read the Food Network schedule.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Robert - A June visit to Tetou might be in order don't you think? Then we can give a firsthand report. I always found the Tomatoes Provencal not garlicky enough. Have you have ever had the confits there? In winter, they used to serve these large glass jars of confits of various fruits and veggies along with beignets, a large pot of cream and sugar. They were fantastic. Things like green tomatoes, rhubarb along with my favorite, frais de bois.

[Hank]

Steve, I have to stop reading your posts. Every time I read one I have to run into my kitchen and find something good to eat. Frais de bois. The best thing ever.
In answer to your question asking if I am still drinking good wine. Well, at age 68 I can assure you that I drink only good wine or non at all. Would love to meet you for dinner one evening. Let's set a date and place.
Concerning soupe de poisons I actually prefer the one where they take the cooked fish, force it through a fine sieve (sp) and then add this fish mush to the broth. It makes the broth much thicker and I enjoy the additional taste. My wife and friends on the other hand enjoy the more traditional clear broth. I have ordered soupe de poisons often in this country and I am always sorry that I did. Just plain does not compare with anything you get in the south of France. What is your take? If you have found a really good one in these parts please let me know.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Henry - Just like a good Bouillabaisse, a good Soupe de Poissons is dependant on Rascasse. That's where it gets it's flavors from. I'm with you by the way, I like the thinner but flavorful broth as opposed to one where the fish has been pureed into the broth. And you can't get a good Soupe de Poissons here. Occassionaly, you can get a good Zuppa di Pesce, with a robust broth spiked with hot pepper, but it's not the same, or as good I might add as a Soupe de Poissons, a unique invention if I ever saw one. We will work on a date.