[JerseyRED]

donbert, on Jan 29 2007, 12:28 PM, said:

JB Prince has some new spherical molds for sale. They're made from silicone to withstand heating and freezing chocolate and sugar but you could make awesome 2.5" or 4" sphere of ice. Too bad it's so exepnsive...   $85 for a double 2.5" mold and $95 for a single 4" mold. 

Hey Donbert,

I remember reading where you said you bought some ice cube trays in order to make larger, square ice cubes. Do you remember where you purchased the trays?

Thanks, Rich

[eje]

donbert, on Jan 29 2007, 08:28 AM, said:

JB Prince has some new spherical molds for sale. They're made from silicone to withstand heating and freezing chocolate and sugar but you could make awesome 2.5" or 4" sphere of ice. Too bad it's so exepnsive...   $85 for a double 2.5" mold and $95 for a single 4" mold. 

Couple links for you...

Attack of the Ice Balls (notmartha blog)

Dunno if these products are available in the US.

Spherical Ice Tray (MOMA Store link)

Yer in NY, right?

[donbert]

JerseyRED, on Jan 29 2007, 12:16 PM, said:

Hey Donbert,

I remember reading where you said you bought some ice cube trays in order to make larger, square ice cubes. Do you remember where you purchased the trays?

Thanks, Rich

Hey Rich,

Ikea used to carry ice cube trays perfect for cocktails but the last time I went looking for them they weren't there. They don't sell them online and nobody at the store in Elizabeth, NJ, could tell me if they'd be getting more.

Here's what they look like:


And these are the blocks you get:

[JerseyRED]

donbert, on Jan 29 2007, 06:02 PM, said:

Hey Rich,

Ikea used to carry ice cube trays perfect for cocktails but the last time I went looking for them they weren't there. They don't sell them online and nobody at the store in Elizabeth, NJ, could tell me if they'd be getting more.

I'll have to swing by the one in Paramus.

Thanks!

[JAZ]

I don't think these ice cube trays make cubes quite as large as Donbert's, but they are nice for cocktails. The cubes are 1-1/4 inches on a side (and they are perfect cubes, which is really nice looking in a drink).

[slkinsey]

Yea, I've got those ice cube trays (or something very similar). I got mine at Bed, Bath & Beyond. It's annoying that they aren't the same length as a regular ice cube tray. You either have to freeze less ice, or you have to double up and you end up with part of one tray sticking out of the ice compartment in the freezer.

For what it's worth, I'd say that donbert's ice cubes are around 3 times bigger than the ones we have, maybe more. They're really cool for an Old Fashioned or something like that. I love them a little less (sorry Don!) for shaking in a standard metal/metal Boston shaker.

[donbert]

slkinsey, on Jan 30 2007, 11:03 AM, said:

For what it's worth, I'd say that donbert's ice cubes are around 3 times bigger than the ones we have, maybe more.  They're really cool for an Old Fashioned or something like that.  I love them a little less (sorry Don!) for shaking in a standard metal/metal Boston shaker.

Sam, I haven't had a chance to try shaking with your ice. How do they compare in size to Kold Draft cubes? Do you prefer them for surface area/dilution/aeration?

(I can understand that my ice might be a bit too big/heavy for your old man arms. )

[slkinsey]

You realize, of course, this means war.


My home ice is approxiomately the same as the Kold-Draft ice: Around 1.5 inches a cube. If I'm shaking, I think this hits a nice sweet spot where there is enough movement in the shaker and enough shaking time to churn and aerate the liquid, and the drink cools down nicely with right around 20% dilution.

When the cubes get much larger, I find that one ends up click-clacking one gigantic chunk of ice back and forth in the shaker. In terms of aeration, this is like using a spoon instead of a whisk. You can eventually whip air into cream using a spoon, but it takes a lot longer. I feel similarly about efficiency of cooling and dilution. The surface area to volume ratio is smaller with one big 3 inch cube of ice compared to eight 1.5 inch cube of ice. This means that transfer of thermal energy is less efficient. Sometimes we want it to be less efficient. Eight 1.5 inch cubes is vastly preferable to 216 half-inch cubes, which would tend to melt too fast. But at some size we reach a point of diminishing returns. In order to get the same cooling and dilution with that one 3 inch cube of ice that we get from 8 1.5 inch cubes of ice, we will have to shake a lot longer. Sometimes this may be good (e.g., a Ramos Fizz -- although there is still the issue of less efficient areation). But it's unclear to me that, say, a Blinker is improved by being shaken for 2 minutes with a huge piece of ice versus 30 seconds with somewhat smaller pieces. It also may be the case that the drink shaken with the one large piece will never be quite as cold as the drink shaken with eight smaller pieces. We should do some expermiments and check.

All this is to say that, when it comes to ice for shaking, we would like a size and a shape that allows us to properly areate, chill and dilute the drink. Once we hit a large enough size to do that (and the Kold-Draft size strikes me as just about right) it's not clear that we add much value by going larger. Operating on the same principles, but with different parameters, we discover that smaller than Kold-Draft ice is best for stirred drinks.

Now... as I said, that doesn't mean that huge ice doesn't still have advantages. I think it's #1 for drinks like an Old Fashioned.

This post has been edited by slkinsey: 30 January 2007 - 12:20 PM

[JerseyRED]

Unless of course he cracks the ice before shaking...

[JerseyRED]

JerseyRED, on Jan 29 2007, 09:36 PM, said:

donbert, on Jan 29 2007, 06:02 PM, said:

Hey Rich,

Ikea used to carry ice cube trays perfect for cocktails but the last time I went looking for them they weren't there. They don't sell them online and nobody at the store in Elizabeth, NJ, could tell me if they'd be getting more.

I'll have to swing by the one in Paramus.

There still available at Ikea (HUGE bin of them in blue and red at Paramus store) for $1.99 each.
Fortunately, the bride knows her way through "the maze".

Thanks for the info Don!

Rich

[donbert]

The LA Times ran an article on ice today. Nothing in the way of new information but nice to see that it's getting noticed outside the cocktail geek community.

[Tomek]

Hi All,

I was wondering if anyone has any home tips for getting ice cubes without those annoying white bits in the middle.

I've recently managed to get some of those IKEA molds here in Poland but I'm really dissapointed with those white areas in the cubes.

From what I've managed to read here and there it seems that the way to get lovely transparent cubes is in a machine where the water "runs through" the cube elements.

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated

[thirtyoneknots]

I believe that ice machines that create bubble-free ice do so by vibrating the trays as they freeze.

-Andy

[eje]

Is the white in ice cubes solely gas coming out of solution and being trapped inside the ice?

Or are there other causes?

I see some reference to precipitate flecks from minerals which fall out of solution, as well as bubbles.

The wikipedia sez:

Quote

Cloudy ice cubes result when water is frozen quickly. When water is cooled slowly (or very close to its freezing point), dissolved gases and microscopic bubbles have a chance to exit the water. However, when water is cooled quickly (further below its freezing point, a situation found in most home freezers), those small bubbles are simply frozen in place.

It seems like, chilling water first in the fridge, and then freezing might help reduce bubbles.

This post has been edited by eje: 07 March 2007 - 10:39 AM

[David Santucci]

Tomek Roehr, on Mar 7 2007, 07:34 AM, said:

I was wondering if anyone has any home tips for getting ice cubes without those annoying white bits in the middle.

The annoying white bits are the result of impurities in the water -- in the form of dissolved solids and gasses. As the ice freezes, from the outside in, all these impurities are pushed to the middle -- hence the white centers.

So, you can try to do one or both of two things:
1. Try to remove the impurities. This might help but will never be 100% effective.
2. Try to get the ice to form from the bottom to the top, forcing the impurities up, and then discard the water on the top (and the impurities with it) before it freezes. This is essentially what commercial ice makers do and should produce the desired result. However, it's going to require some kind of special equipment.

For number 1, simply used the purest water possible (i.e., with the least dissolved solids) and then boil it for 10 minutes or so (to remove dissolved gasses).

For number 2, buy a commercial ice maker. Or try to come up with some kind of MacGuyver solution. Perhaps an extrmely cold block of metal with the ice cube trays on top. Or maybe a heat source above the ice cube trays as they freeze. Either way, you will have to pour off the water on top before the cubes are completely frozen.

[JerseyRED]

Tomek Roehr, on Mar 7 2007, 07:34 AM, said:

I was wondering if anyone has any home tips for getting ice cubes without those annoying white bits in the middle.

Mind you, I know NOTHING about water quality and the effects of freezing water.
I do know that if I fill my trays with hot (not warm) water they freeze slower and I end up with a more transparent cube.

[Tomek]

Thanks for all the tips I must say however that:
1. I tried the hot water version
2. I've used mineral water and boiled water
3. I've turned my freezer downs as far as possible

And the results still aren't satisfactory.

I haven't tried distilled water as yet but will do in the near future and I definitely can't afford an ice machine at the moment.

The bottom freezing idea seems interesting but my home fridge/freezer has the freezing element at the top.

I'll keep trying I guess until I finally get that all important clear cube at home

[johnder]

Supposedly Milk and Honey's Red Room in London, freezes ice, lets the ice melt and then freezes the melted water again. At least that is what they say on their menu.

Quote

If you're in the Red Room, you'll be served drinks containing jagged wedges of ice. We cut these by hand with an ice pick from a twice-frozen block of ice made from mineral water. Ice like this is denser, colder and clearer, and chills your drink perfectly without diluting it too much.

John

[jmfangio]

Would freezing it slowly (though I have no idea how one would achieve this in a home freezer) make a difference in the clarity?

About a year ago, one of the dishes in my favorite cooking show, Cooking Showdown , was a shaved ice dessert, and the secret ingredient was...the ice!

But, not just any ice, mind you. As winter approaches, crystal clear water from an underground stream is diverted into a large, shallow pool, and allowed to freeze naturally in the open air. The surface of the pool is raked daily to clear away any debris that may have fallen into it, and when the pool is finally frozen solid, it's cut up into large squares about 3 feet around and about 1 foot thick. Placed next to a commercially produced block of ice, it's as clear as glass. Tasters on the show remarked that eating the shaved ice was like eating freshly fallen snow.

[Tomek]

So I tried one of the suggestions that was put forward here. I bought myself some distilled water which is supposed to be VERY pure. The cubes came out a bit better but still not that transparent. I guess I'll just have to keep trying.

[slkinsey]

You'll probably have the best luck making clear ice cubes doing this:

1. Use distilled water (this makes sure there are no minerals which could cause clouding).

2. Boil the water (this gets rid of any dissolved gasses which could cause bubbles).

3. Use the water immediately after boiling (this makes sure that the minimum amount of gas is re-dissolved into the water, and also will cause the ice to form more slowly -- both of which result in better clarity).

4. Make the ice cubes in layers (this makes it less likely that any remaining gasses will be trapped in the ice as the water freezes and the gas comes out of solution).

5. Open the freezer and agitate the ice trays every 5 minutes or so to release any bubbles that may be forming.


This is an awful lot of work just to get clear ice cubes at home. And, of course, clear ice cubes are not any better than cloudy ice cubes when it comes to chilling in the shaker for an "up" drink. So, I could see maybe taking a lot of trouble to make one tray of clear ice and using that ice exclusively for rocks drinks. 1, 2 and 3 will already make a big difference compared to regular tap water. 4 and 5 are for fanatics.

[eje]

slkinsey, on Mar 15 2007, 06:40 AM, said:

[...]
3. Use the water immediately after boiling (this makes sure that the minimum amount of gas is re-dissolved into the water, and also will cause the ice to form more slowly -- both of which result in better clarity).
[...]

What about the Mpemba Effect?

Quote

The fact that hot water freezes faster than cold has been known for many centuries.  The earliest reference to this phenomenon dates back to Aristotle in 300 B.C.  The phenomenon was later discussed in the medieval era, as European physicists struggled to come up with a theory of heat.  But by the 20th century the phenomenon was only known as common folklore, until it was reintroduced to the scientific community in 1969 by Mpemba, a Tanzanian high school student.  Since then, numerous experiments have confirmed the existence of the "Mpemba effect", but have not settled on any single explanation.

[slkinsey]

The Mpemba Effect is dependent on certain conditions. It would have to be a huge Mpemba Effect to freeze a tray of 98C (just off boiling temperature) water faster than a tray of 22C (room temperature) water or a tray of cool tap water at maybe 15C. In the context of a normal home freezer and plastic or latex ice cube trays I don't think the conditions would be right for a Mpemba Effect of this magnitude.

[weinoo]

slkinsey, on Mar 15 2007, 09:40 AM, said:

You'll probably have the best luck making clear ice cubes doing this:

1. Use distilled water (this makes sure there are no minerals which could cause clouding).

Sam,
I've always heard/read that for things like making coffee/tea/stock etc., distilled water should generally not be used, due to it's lack of anything in terms of a flavor profile. Wouldn't the same hold true for ice cubes - I mean, not that you want to add any unwanted flavors to a drink, but some water actually tastes better than others...I mean, it tastes like we expect water to taste - I'd much rather drink from the tap in NY than drink distilled water.

Thoughts?

[slkinsey]

Sure. Personally I think most distilled water tastes terrible. I wouldn't necessarily recommend making water out of distilled water if taste is an important consideration. I'd recommend a nice, sweet, relatively soft water that's been filtered to remove chlorine. You know... like filtered NYC tap water.

My recommendations were only applicable to the goal of creating maximally clear ice cubes with normal home equipment (which I personally don't think is worth pursuing, but to each his own).

[Tomek]

Maybe I am being too pick by trying to get nice clear ice at home. The fact is that distilled water isn't very nice for drinks in my opinion. But clear cubes do look more appealling in an old fashioned somehow Maybe it's time to start saving for an ice machine.....

[eje]

Instead of boiling, has anyone tried the suggestion to thoroughly chill the water as close to freezing as possible before freezing?

Any observable difference?

Gonna have to make a trip to IKEA this weekend...

[slkinsey]

Erik, where does that suggestion come from?

Chilling the water close to freezing (e.g., to 3 degrees C) before putting it into the freezer would mean that the water would freeze very rapidly once it was exposed to the subzero environment. I can imagine that this would lead to increased trapping of gas bubbles due to the rapidity of the freezing. Also, and also because the solubility of gas in water goes up as temperature goes down. So, e.g., 3C water can hold more dissolved gas than 90C water. This is important because solubility radically changes as water undergoes a phase change from liquid to solid and the gas comes out of solution.

This may be one way that johnder's "twice frozen" water example from London works. In the initial freezing, gas is driven out of the ice. Then, if the ice is quickly melted to a low temperature for a brief period of time and quickly refrozen, it may re-freeze with fewer trapped bubbles.

[eje]

slkinsey, on Mar 16 2007, 08:32 AM, said:

Erik, where does that suggestion come from?

Chilling the water close to freezing (e.g., to 3 degrees C) before putting it into the freezer would mean that the water would freeze very rapidly once it was exposed to the subzero environment.  I can imagine that this would lead to increased trapping of gas bubbles due to the rapidity of the freezing.  Also, and also because the solubility of gas in water goes up as temperature goes down.  So, e.g., 3C water can hold more dissolved gas than 90C water.  This is important because solubility radically changes as water undergoes a phase change from liquid to solid and the gas comes out of solution.

This may be one way that johnder's "twice frozen" water example from London works.  In the initial freezing, gas is driven out of the ice.  Then, if the ice is quickly melted to a low temperature for a brief period of time and quickly refrozen, it may re-freeze with fewer trapped bubbles.

It was from the wikipedia article I linked above, (and we know how reliable the wikipedia can be).

I was wondering about the solubility of gas thing, wasn't sure if gas leaving frozen water was as a result of the crystallization or if, as the apparently incorrect wikpedia article suggests, gas is less soluble in cold water.

Thanks for clarifying!

[eje]

Quote

Cocktails and Ice -- how far do you go?

Well, at least to the new Daiso store in Daly City.



Evidently large cubes are fascinating to cats, as well.



Clear instructions.



Not sure what these warnings say, though. Anyone able to translate?



Will report back on how they work.