[Celine]

We are visiting NYC in March and I have researched sushi restaurants to the point of exhaustion, overload, etc. I love Tomoe, but I yearn to explore the next level of sushi. I prefer traditional to Nobu style. My favorites include toro,yellowtail,shad,and of course my beloved ikura. Fresh wasabi would be nice but isn't totally necessary. I'm leaning towards Sushi Yasuda or Kuruma Zushi. Which one should I choose? Or another one altogether?

Celine

[Jason Perlow]

Both of those are excellent.

See Fat Guy's sushi guide from 2001:

Guerilla Sushi Tactics (Archive.org Wayback Machine)

This post has been edited by Jason Perlow: 14 January 2006 - 10:37 AM

[Fat Guy]

I send a fair number of people to both places, and have always had great feedback. At that level of sushi excellence, it's not a matter of one being better than the other. Eventually, you'll want to try both. As for which to try first, perhaps Sushi Yasuda is more approachable for someone looking to advance to the next level of sushi. If you have the opportunity to sit at the sushi bar and interact with Yasuda, that will surely enhance the experience.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Celine - I haven't been to Kuruma but Yasuda is great. I mean they can have 5 different grades of tuna and 7 grades of salmon all in the same evening. In fact they will prepare a tasting of all 12 fish so you can see the difference in taste and texture. And the sushi bar is the place to be.

[Celine]

Jason, the Fat Guy sushi guide is one of the things that contributed heavily to my sushi imformation saturation. It's excellent but left me wanting to try them all, especially the two I mentioned. I was just hoping that someone could help me break the mental tie in my mind.

Thanks, Steven and Steve. Your comments helped me decide--  Sushi Yusada at the bar is what it will be. The varying grades of tuna/salmon sounds like a luscious learning experience. And then, I may just have to sneak away from the family for a solo trip to Kuruma.

Celine

[Fat Guy]

Celine, you can also get a glimpse of Sushi Yasuda's excellence by ordering some of the chef's choice sushi lunches. These are amazingly good values, though of course they don't contain the higher grades of toro et al. If you're going at dinnertime and you plan to sample all the top shelf stuff, I suggest a couple of slices of pizza beforehand, because it costs several hundred dollars to get full at the top of the Sushi Yasuda pricing scale.

[Mao]

I walked out of Yasuda very full on Friday for 贻 for one.  It is is not cheap, as Steve says, especially if you eat omakase, but its pretty #### good stuff.  

[ELA]

While Yasuda is without a doubt one of the best, my personal favorite has always been Blue Ribbon Sushi  (and, although, I will admit some bias here). The boys always have steered me in the right direction as to what is exceptional. They have also made me some special treats as I had know a couple of them. Top-notch, a lot of fun, creative, and always one of my all-time favorites.

Eric

[Fat Guy]

Blue Ribbon Sushi is very good, and has become more useful since opening for lunch, but I'm just not seeing it in the same category as the Midtown heavy hitters. I'm not even sure it's trying to compete at that level.

[Mao]

OK, I will throw in my 2 cents again.  I ate at Yasuda last Friday, and went to Kuruma last night.  I have to admit, I think Kuruma gets the slight edge.  There are some things that Yasuda very clearly does better--all their rolls, the toro, and the unagi (eel).  In fact, Yasuda may have the best toro and scallion roll on the planet.  Their unagi rolls are also to die for.  Yasuda also tends to not simply stick to what are traditional Japanese fish-- when I was there I had fish from Spain, Florida and one form Peru, and I had never heard of any of the fish.  He sources whatever he thinks is freshest and throws it on the menu. By contrast, Kuruma offers more traditionally Japanese fish--toro, yellowtail, you know the drill-- and it tends not to stray too far from that, though I had some very unusual cuts of fish last night.  But boy is it fresh, boy is it good, and truthfully what amazed me was simply the consistency of excellence and "wow" I experienced.  I don't think I can recall a pure sushi experience (Gari is impure but has its own magic and thus can't be compared) that was this consistently fine and delicate from beginning to end.  In my experience, Yasuda just isn't able to generate quite the same degree of revelatory excellence with the same consistency, though its darn close.  Kuruma is amazing.

[milla]

On a recent trip to NY I had successive lunches at Kurumazushi and Sushi Yasuda. Both offer stellar experiences yet are very different in ambiance and style. Both can be considered classical sushi with no embellishments. Both these restaurants serve very seasonal fish so one can go back at intermittent times and have a good selection of species different from their last visit.

At sushi Yasuda we were treated to a grand parade of impeccable sushi and also had a fascinating discussion with him about the intricacies of sushi and his thoughts.

We started off with “Aka Miso”, flavorful, rich and full bodied that was wonderful. Red miso, scallions and super sweet manila clams.
Geoduck, resting on the slightly warm, perfect rice.
Swordfish, a first for me, and the first time I have ever seen anything resembling a sashimi quality in this species.
White Salmon, ivory in color and delicious. A texture of cellar temperature butter.
Ikura, from Steelhead salmon and cured in house with a brine with salinity of sea water then a quick soak in sake.
Uni, pristine and served without nori directly on the rice.
Unagi, a stellar example of this freshwater fish, the best that I ever remember having.
San ma. Pike mackerel, oily like mackerel and cured for brief intervals in sea salt and then rice vinegar. This fish denotes the end of summer in Japan as the first cold waters off the fall bring it close to be fished.
Hamachi, very good.
Toro, of excellent quality.
Nori, black in color with great texture, that slowly softened in contact with the rice and fish to where it remains tensile and then takes almost a meaty like flavor.

The rice at Yasuda is the best. Yasuda-san is a great host. He shared a lot with us and was frank in his opinions. He talked about how sushi is all about the rice. The fish actually takes on a secondary aspect to the piece. It is a condiment for the rice.

Sushi and sashimi are quite different. Sashimi, unadorned, its beauty in its nakedness, the freshness and its place in the changing seasons is all about the fish.
Yasuda-san is a rice man. He is proud of his rice and justly so. It was slightly warm, like body temperature. He talked of polishing his own rice, indeed, he is the only one who makes the rice at the restaurant. He mentions that 264 grains of rice that make the perfect sushi base and how a good master will grab within a couple of grains with each handful.
All in all, a wonderful experience. I would go back anytime I had a chance.
He talked about how some sushi chefs are rice guys, some are nori guys, and some excell at seasoning with soy and wasabi.

The master at Kurumazushi is a fish man, pure and simple. We asked the chef to prepare for us, his choice. We elected to do sashimi followed by sushi.
On two separate mounds of seaweed and daikon placed in front of us, we were given the following.

O-toro, specifically from the belly and closest to the skin of the fish.
Wild Hamachi, from the belly, once again sliced closest to the skin.
Medai or Japanese Butterfish.
Kampachi.
Shima aji, with the skin left on and miniature slits breaking the skin for texture and to break up any chance of slight chewiness.
Fluke sliced paper thin from the same fish but some from the back and three more slices closer to the tail. We were instructed to eat from one end to the other and note the changes in fattiness and texture as we moved along. Served with a special ponzu with fresh yuzu.
Botan Shrimp with sudachi. Incredibly sweet shrimp, that were halved lengthwise and brushed lightly with a fresh sudachi that had been just sliced in half. Instructed to dip a small corner in soy.
We then switched to sushi.
Toro, unbelievable in its texture and flavor.
Fluke fin from Japanese Hirame.
Herring roe with seaweed ponzu.
Crab roe from a Hokkiado spicer crab that was gently mixed with the crabmeat from the head.Extraordinary.
Live Scallops with its roe. Moving and waving as if trying to get off the rice.
Anago, sea eel, the best I ever had. Great sauce.
Toro tartare mixed with Katsuboshi.
We finished with Uni, which was just ordinary and the least distinctive piece.
The price was $201 per person. We had 34 pieces of fish which comes out to about to just under $6 a piece.

Comparing the two I think the ambiance is much better at Yasuda. And the rice is in top form, better than Kuruma. But I wholly believe the fish is of higher quality at Kuruma almost without exception. It sings. On this trip in was the most singular taste experience I had of any dining opportunity that I had.
In the complex and stratified Japanese system of grading and pricing fish I get the impression that Kuruma buys at a whole different level than other places, including Yasuda. It is simply not the same. I saw the “chos”, the cleaned blocks of o-toro ready for slicing, at both places, and frankly there was no comparison. At Kuruma he told me it costs him $190 a pound. This is reflected in the price disparity that the two charge. Kuruma made my spine tingle, the hair on my arm stand up, and almost got a touch weepy with the three toro presentations we had. And though Yasuda might offer more variety, there wasn’t a dud at Kuruma except for the Uni. The Uni I had there back in June had maybe a dozen whole tongues in a single piece they were so small (size of a pinky nail) with various colors denoting no dyeing that usually takes place in the monochromatic colored urchin out of Santa Barbara. I look forward to continuing to visit both places and celebrate the difference. On to Urazawa next week in LA.

[jogoode]

Thank for your report, Milla. This subject is one of great interest to me. Here are a few threads in which at least one of the two restaurants are discussed.

Here and here.

I applaud you for emphasizing the differences in the two restaurants and not coming up with a final verdict -- "Such-and-such is clearly the better of the two!" -- as I'm always tempted to do. I prefer Yasuda by a large margin, but don't think one is better than the other. I was not impressed by Kuruma's rice, and the piece of fish atop the rice is far too big for my taste. But I am ready to believe that different people prefer different rice. Do you think the quality of the fish at Kuruma was higher, or do you think that the sushi at Kuruma simply emphasizes the fish, while Yasuda's emphasize the rice? With bigger pieces, the flavor of the fish is more overt, but not necessarily better.

Thanks again for sharing. It's rare to get anything approaching a blow-by-blow account of sushi meal. But just because there are more components to discuss in each dish at Per Se, doesn't mean I'd rather hear about each one than about each piece of sushi at Kuruma or Yasuda. And because there aren't a dozen components, I think that it is harder for a writer to summon a description of Yasuda's rice or nori that captures their pleasures.

[milla]

jogoode, on Nov 8 2004, 02:10 PM, said:

I applaud you for emphasizing the differences in the two restaurants and not coming up with a final verdict -- "Such-and-such is clearly the better of the two!" -- as I'm always tempted to do. I prefer Yasuda by a large margin, but don't think one is better than the other. I was not impressed by Kuruma's rice, and the piece of fish atop the rice is far too big for my taste. But I am ready to believe that different people prefer different rice. Do you think the quality of the fish at Kuruma was higher, or do you think that the sushi at Kuruma simply emphasizes the fish, while Yasuda's emphasize the rice? With bigger pieces, the flavor of the fish is more overt, but not necessarily better.

Thanks. A lot of it is personal preference. I think that Yasuda is a rice man and Kuruma is about the fish. Even though people regard sushi and sashimi as similar, one could argue that they are opposite ends of the spectrum in that sushi is primarily rice and the fish is a "condiment" to the rice. that is the impression i got in speaking with Yasuda.
Kuruma is about the fish. I think it stands apart. The sashimi part of our meal was mind blowing. His rice is very good also but different than Yasuda, whose rice i preferred. But like I said in the thread, I think Kuruma purchases on a completely different level than most everyone else and that is reflected in the price. The question is, is the fish purchased at this uber quality/price that much different from the next level down? I think discerning sushi aficionados can tell. Viva and celebrate the difference and the styles...

[jogoode]

milla, on Nov 8 2004, 04:30 PM, said:

Viva and celebrate the difference and the styles...

Absolutely!

I'm planning my annual trip to Yasuda, so I was wondering what fish are in season now and were there any fish that the chefs were particularly excited about?

[milla]

jogoode, on Nov 8 2004, 02:52 PM, said:

I'm planning my annual trip to Yasuda, so I was wondering what fish are in season now and were there any fish that the chefs were particularly excited about?

Let him decide. It would not suprise me if there were alot of different stuff just from the end of September when i was there. Enjoy.

[docsconz]

Mouth-watering report, Milla. I haven't been to either yet. I love the contrasts between the two as described by you. While I enjoy sushi and sashimi, I doubt I've ever had it on this level with the exception of the raw sea urchin I've had in Sicily which was light years beyond any I've had in the US.

[docsconz]

David,

I recently returned from a week in NYC and simply had to follow your lead and go to both Kuruma and Yasuda. I will say that though I have enjoyed all kinds of Sushi for some time, I am by no means an expert nor at this point capable of discerning the subtle differences between the two restaurants, although I follow a lot of what you had to say based on my experiences. They were simply the two most outstanding sushi experiences of my life so far. No other experience has been even close except for perhaps my initial awakening years ago, but that is a different story.

I went first to Kuruma with my wife. We had an omakase lunch that even though I was expecting it to be expensive, I didn't quite expect it to be that expensive. The total for two with sake, tax and tip was over $500. Nevertheless it was extraordinary with a lot of great fish and pretty darn good rice too. We had a lot of toro (as you described so well) in addition to a number of other unusual items such as special Japanese fish and a particular Japanese yellowtail only available at this time. I have a few photos for illustration.

Our view at the bar


A solitary slice of toro sashimi.


Fluke with the pnzu dipping sauce. This was sublime and my favorite dish of the meal.

Toro sushi.

I believe this was more toro prepared in a slightly different way, though I could easily be wrong.


Yellowtail?

Japanese shrimp - raw.

Uni. This was the first time my wife ever tried uni. She wasn't disappointed.


Eel. Delicious.


Me munching.

We ate much more at Kuruma, but these were the only photos that turned out reasonably well.

Overall the experience was excceptional. I would certainly return, though not frequently because of the cost.

I ate an omakase lunch at Yasuda with jogoode and bondgirl. This lunch was also exceptional as we sat diectly in front of Yasuda himself, who also waxed eloquently to us of many of the same topics he did with David.

The rice at Yasuda was exceptional, but then so was the fish. The instruction for each piece was a bit clearer at Yasuda as none was given at Kuruma. We were also instructed to just use our hands and not chopsticks for eating the sushi. I liked the fact that almost all the sushi was presauces ideally by Yasuda. Following are a few photographic details:

Yasuda at work. His hands were constantly in motion.


A couple of pieces of sushi including toro.

Sea Scallop.

Toro closeup. I was amazed with the toro here and at Kuruma at the pale pinkness of it. I had never had it before other than cooked as ventresca.


The uni box.


Uni sushi closeup.


King Salmon Roe that was fresh and had not been presered with salt. This was amazing.


Fresh Florida shrimp cooked directly in front of us. This had the essence of shrimpness.


Omelette. This was sweet, but not overly so. This was a good contrast to the seafood.


Toro roll.

Uni roll.

JJ eats as Bondgirl watches.



Both meals really were extraordinary and I would love to go back to both. Sushi yasuda is the one I expect to frequent more regularly as the cost was much more affordable. It cost me $110 plus tax and tip for an omakase that included 23 pieces of sushi and sake as well as tea. Both spaces are excellent as well.

David, thanks for inspiring me to this exploration and JJ and Yaroo, thanks for accompanying me for part of it!

[bourdain]

Loving this thread. ....great stuff.

[Jason Perlow]

Keep your pants on Tony.... although I'm tempted as well!

[milla]

what marvellous photos, doc. thanks for sharing. it is hard to go wrong choosing between those two...

[jogoode]

Oh, man! Great pics, doc!

And look at that piece of toro sashimi! I wonder whether the shrimp in that gunkan maki at Kuruma Zushi are chopped ama ebi or dozens of tiny shrimp. (I can't quite tell from the pictures.) Any idea, doc? If they are tiny shrimp, has anyone ever seen them before?

Yasuda was even more talkative than usual, which was a pleasure. This was the first time in my life I've gone to Sushi Yasuda more than once in six months. Thank you, doc, for giving me a reason to splurge.

What do you think accounts for the dramatic price difference between the two sushi-ya? The only two things I can think of are 1) Kuruma serves significantly larger pieces of fish 2) Yasuda does higher volume, with more space at the bar and over a dozen tables to Kuruma's, what, one table and eight bar seats.

[Todd36]

jogoode, on Dec 22 2004, 05:49 PM, said:

Oh, man! Great pics, doc!

What do you think accounts for the dramatic price difference between the two sushi-ya? The only two things I can think of are 1) Kuruma serves significantly larger pieces of fish 2) Yasuda does higher volume, with more space at the bar and over a dozen tables to Kuruma's, what, one table and eight bar seats.

I've been to Kurma once, and I didn't pay that much. A friend who eats there often for business says regulars pay less, and they charge what they think people will pay for non-regulars. This is a problem I think with omaksase set-ups.

[milla]

jogoode, on Dec 22 2004, 05:49 PM, said:

And look at that piece of toro sashimi! I wonder whether the shrimp in that gunkan maki at Kuruma Zushi are chopped ama ebi or dozens of tiny shrimp. (I can't quite tell from the pictures.) Any idea, doc? If they are tiny shrimp, has anyone ever seen them before?

Yasuda was even more talkative than usual, which was a pleasure. This was the first time in my life I've gone to Sushi Yasuda more than once in six months. Thank you, doc, for giving me a reason to splurge.

What do you think accounts for the dramatic price difference between the two sushi-ya? The only two things I can think of are 1) Kuruma serves significantly larger pieces of fish 2) Yasuda does higher volume, with more space at the bar and over a dozen tables to Kuruma's, what, one table and eight bar seats.

I don't know if it is the season but at Kuruma we often get shiro ebi, super small, super sweet shrimp harvested from specific rivermouths. Quite the delicacy and , no surprise, very expensive.
As for the price difference is still feel that in the complex and stratified Japanese system of grading and pricing fish, Kuruma buys at a whole different level than other places, including Yasuda. It is simply not the same. I saw the “chos”, the cleaned blocks of o-toro ready for slicing, at both places, and frankly there was no comparison. At Kuruma he told me it costs him $190 a pound. This is reflected in the price disparity that the two charge. My humble thoughts though i know i am in the minority with this opinion...

[jogoode]

Todd36, on Dec 22 2004, 07:58 PM, said:

jogoode, on Dec 22 2004, 05:49 PM, said:

Oh, man! Great pics, doc!

What do you think accounts for the dramatic price difference between the two sushi-ya? The only two things I can think of are 1) Kuruma serves significantly larger pieces of fish 2) Yasuda does higher volume, with more space at the bar and over a dozen tables to Kuruma's, what, one table and eight bar seats.

I've been to Kurma once, and I didn't pay that much. A friend who eats there often for business says regulars pay less, and they charge what they think people will pay for non-regulars. This is a problem I think with omaksase set-ups.

I'd hope that this is because the chef aims to give non-regulars -- those who are presumably at Kuruma for a special occasion -- the most luxurious experience he can, if they don't specify price. Otherwise...

Does Uezu give you any form of itemized receipt after omakase? Yasuda gives you a marked copy of the a la carte sushi menu.

[milla]

jogoode, on Dec 22 2004, 06:19 PM, said:

Does Uezu give you any form of itemized receipt after omakase? Yasuda gives you a marked copy of the a la carte sushi menu.

good point.... i never got it itemized, only a big round number. it has been most expensive when sushi and sashimi were requested. I have never paid over 200 a person and even at that price point it has never come out to more than 6-7 per piece of fish.

[docsconz]

I believe that the shrimp werre in fact the shiro ebi that David mentioned.

As far as the itemization, I asked for a list of what I had eaten. They assumed I wanted an itemized price list which they supplied, but which I have misplaced (thus the lack of specific detail). As for the price, I was served a lot more exotic and foreign fish at Kuruma. Yasuda sources a lot of his fish from here in the US. I also ate a lot mor toro at Kuruma. I can't really say that I'm too surprised that Kuruma was more expensive, but at this point to my relatively unsophisticated Sushi palate I cannot say that the difference if any was worth it to me.

As far as the newbies and the regulars, it may very well be that I benefitted from that practice at Yasuda since I was there with JJ who is at least somewhat known to the retsaurant and Yasuda.

[jogoode]

milla, on Dec 22 2004, 08:28 PM, said:

I have never paid over 200 a person and even at that price point it has never come out to more than 6-7 per piece of fish.

Am I reading this right? Seven pieces for $200!?

[SobaAddict70]

Is Yasuda open on Sunday?

Haven't had my birthday dinner yet.

Soba

[tanabutler]

Doc, is it possible that your two "toro" shots are different cuts of the same creature, and not different prep?

Jogoode, I think Milla's saying $6-$7 per piece of fish. I can't imagine he'd stop at six pieces of sushi!

This post has been edited by tanabutler: 22 December 2004 - 06:43 PM

[jogoode]

Thank you, tanabutler -- I can finally catch my breath.

docsconz, on Dec 22 2004, 08:32 PM, said:

As far as the newbies and the regulars, it may very well be that I benefitted from that practice at Yasuda since I was there with JJ who is at least somewhat known to the retsaurant and Yasuda.

That's true. Yasuda knows that I'm cheap, so maybe he assumed my friends are as well.

I've only been to Kuruma once, but I remember its menu being very limited. Maybe it's only during omakase that Uezu brings out the rare stuff. Much of Yasuda's fish might be from the US, but it is by no means ordinary. Not only does he serve seven types of yellowtail, he serves hard-to-find parts of fish, like mirugai himo. On a given night, you can eat one piece of toro from Long Island and one from Spain. There was a time in Japan, I've read, when sushi-ya were only considered traditional if they served fish from Tokyo Bay. And there are still sushi-ya that refuse to serve uni and ikura, like Miyako Zushi, in Asakusa, because they consider it too new. It's often said that Italian restaurants in America are unable to serve "authentic" food, because Italian food in Italy is so highly regional and uses ingredients only found in Italy. That's why Yasuda is innovative within the tradition of sushi. By highlighting local fish, he creates truly American sushi, not Americanized sushi.

Sorry, Soba. It's closed on Sunday.