Roasting a Chicken The Topic (merged)
#421
Posted 19 September 2006 - 01:33 PM
#422
Posted 20 September 2006 - 09:17 AM
I now cook birds with a combination of hot and slow oven temps: F 450* until the thigh ....between the thigh and the breast actually... reaches F 110*- F 120* to sterilize the skin and then I lower the oven temp to F 250* (or lower depending on how much time I have until serving) and continue to roast until the thigh (between the thigh and breast) temp reaches ~ F 150*. The bird sits uncovered for 15 to 20 minutes out of the oven before carving. I find all the meat on these birds is moist.... wet actually... and delicious. I don't mind a little pinkness around the thigh bone where it attaches to the body. I never truss birds as I find the thigh meat does not cook as well as when the legs are akimbo. I never brine birds cooked like this.
If however I am cooking whole chickens elsewhere where I am not in control of the time, I always brine these birds and cook them in a very hot oven. These birds are cooked to higher inner thigh temp. as most people think chicken if it is pink around the thigh bone is not cooked properly.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
#423
Posted 20 September 2006 - 10:30 AM
Soupcon, on Sep 20 2006, 10:17 AM, said:
One way to combat this is to either cut off the end of the leg (that knob) or to cut at the bottom of the leg all the way through the skin and tendons. The leg's sort of resemble lollipops and cook much more like the thigh (thanks to Sam for teaching me about this important step!).
#424
Posted 20 September 2006 - 09:56 PM
One four pound air-chilled bird. One paring knife, one boning knife.

Cut out the wishbone from the front and expose the wing joint from the inside. Cut through each so that you get something that looks like the following:

Carefully cut away the shoulder blades and then use your fingers and a paring knife to move the meat away from the bones. Turn the bird as you're doing this. When working on the back, be very careful because it's very thin. Cut through to the little oysters of meat at the top of the hip.

Turn the bird around and cut the meat away from the bones via the abdominal cavity. Then pull out the breastbone.


Expose the thigh bone and then cut it away. If you want, continue cutting out the drumsticks as well, but I find that the final roasted bird doesn't look right.


Cut underneath the pelvis on both sides, and then gently use a knife to roll the skin away from the bone.


Cut the backbone loose and remove (that's chicken blood on my fingers in case anyone's wondering).

One bird with only bones in the drumsticks and wings…

… and a little pile of bones destined for fond blanc.

Total time for this bird: 20 minutes.
Total time when I don't stop after every cut to take photos: less than 5 minutes.
The chicken skeleton gets replaced with porky goodness. I minced a pound of boneless pork loin chops and mixed with cooked mirepoix, lobster mushrooms, duck fat and port. Additional mirepoix and lobster mushroom mix is stuffed under the skin. By the way, this wasn't enough pork; I would double the amount for similar-sized birds in the future.


The reformed bird needs to be tied to reshape it back into something which looks like it has a skeleton. The bamboo skewer isn't trimmed because I use it as an anchor point for the truss.

Ready for roasting.


After roasting (note to self: don't rub the bird with mirin; the stuff has sugar in it). 425ºF for 20 minutes, 375ºF for 60 minutes, rested for 20 minutes.

Sliced bird (look ma, no bones!).

Plated bird (been a while since I plated anything - need practice). Sauce made with port, pan drippings and demi-glace, and adjusted with honey, salt and cayenne. Served with a 2001 Dr. H Thanisch Bernkasteler Badstube Spätlese because I wanted to try out my new Riedel Riesling glasses.
This post has been edited by wattacetti: 20 September 2006 - 09:58 PM
#425
Posted 20 September 2006 - 10:51 PM
Ann
This post has been edited by Ann_T: 20 September 2006 - 10:52 PM
Thibeault's Table
The sense of taste is the most exquisite of all
- Cicero, 106-43 B.C.
#426
Posted 21 September 2006 - 06:50 AM
wattacetti, on Sep 21 2006, 12:56 AM, said:
wow, thanks a lot, wattacetti--
i've been wanting to learn that method for years, and, having looked at cookbooks and not really been sure what they were doing, i am now clear on the process.
i'll be the one practicing on three chickens at home this weekend...
--Isak Dinesen
#427
Posted 21 September 2006 - 08:08 AM
Ann_T, on Sep 21 2006, 01:51 AM, said:
Ann
Those are really good how-to photos you've posted on your SmugBug site. And your plate looks much nicer than mine.
I use your boning method when I debone quail because I am much more likely to stab myself on the little beasts. I stopped doing it for chickens because I was just too lazy to either tie the package back up or truss it like you've done (my sewing skills are only adequate).
I am toying with the idea of a smaller variant on the turducken (duck, chicken, quail), so yours sounds like the way to go for preliminary experimentation.
#428
Posted 07 March 2007 - 02:35 PM
Any hints will be appreciated.
Soup
I've heard that steaming it for a bit then hanging it to dry before roasting might work? I'v done this when frying the bird but not roasting.
#429
Posted 07 March 2007 - 02:55 PM
#430
Posted 07 March 2007 - 03:11 PM
Soup, on Mar 7 2007, 05:35 PM, said:
Well, you could try the Peking duck method: loosen the skin from the meat, and shock the bird in boiling water for 30 seconds followed by ice bath. Repeat process a few times, cover loosely with cheesecloth and let sit in refrigerator overnight.
For really crispy skin I've been known to take a blowtorch to the bird after roasting.
#431
Posted 07 March 2007 - 03:19 PM
#432
Posted 07 March 2007 - 03:27 PM
Perfect crispy skin and done in a roasting pan on a rack, a lot less messy. If you have a convection oven, use the convection setting. It really helps to crisp the skin as well.
This post has been edited by Marlene: 07 March 2007 - 03:27 PM
cookskorner
Practice. Do it over. Get it right.
Mostly, I want people to be as happy eating my food as I am cooking it.
#433
Posted 07 March 2007 - 05:07 PM
#434
Posted 07 March 2007 - 06:17 PM

It's seasoned with a curry dry rub and perched on a beverage can.
Here's how it goes:
http://buffalobuffet...sitting-pretty/
#435
Posted 07 March 2007 - 06:32 PM
agalarneau, on Mar 7 2007, 06:17 PM, said:

It's seasoned with a curry dry rub and perched on a beverage can.
Here's how it goes:
http://buffalobuffet...sitting-pretty/
Oh my. That looks incredible, agalarneau....
#436
Posted 09 March 2007 - 06:07 PM
Soup, on Mar 7 2007, 01:35 PM, said:
Any hints will be appreciated.
Soup
I've heard that steaming it for a bit then hanging it to dry before roasting might work? I'v done this when frying the bird but not roasting.
Mostly what you need for crispy skin is time and a few simple tools.
The night before you plan to roast the chicken, get your bird out of any plastic wrap. Pat it dry. Rub it inside and out with salt. I find kosher salt is easier to handle, but that's a matter of taste, not a hard rule.
Now get out your roasting pan and a V shaped roasting rack. Other roasting racks will work, the main thing is to keep the bird from sitting in the juices and fat. Set the bird in the rack, thighs facing up. Let it sit in a dry part of the fridge until you're ready to roast it the next day. When you roast it, let it go thighs up until the underside skin is very crisp. Then turn it breast up. If you are using a beer can style roasting rack, you don't have to turn the bird, so you may find you prefer that method. You can also get crisp skin with no roasting rack, but that takes a fair bit of practice.
After that, the main thing is practice. After you've roasted chicken a few times, you'll get to recognize the scent of very crisp skin. Skin can look crisp visually, but not be really crisp. I find smell is a more reliable indicator. You can get quite crisp skin with different oven temperatures. I prefer high heat, but there are other cooks who prefer low heat. Experiment and find out what you like better.
The big thing with roast chicken is to do it often while you're mastering it. Practice makes perfect. Since it's a very economical meal in most places, this shouldn't be a great hardship :). I usually don't bother to prep the bird the night before. It gives better results, but I'm not at my best in the evenings, so if I prep the bird in advance it's the morning of roasting day. Practice taught me that.
#437
Posted 15 March 2007 - 07:48 PM
chickens with total weight
<blockquote>
10.38 pounds
</blockquote>
Heart, gizzard, liver, neck, feet were missing.
<br><br>
In stainless steel roasting pan, put
<blockquote>
2 pounds quartered, coarsely sliced yellow onions (large
onions, about 1 pound each as purchased)
<br>
1 pound peeled, sliced carrots
<br>
1 pound rinsed, sliced celery
<br>
5 ounces coarsely chopped, peeled, fresh Chinese garlic
<br>
1 T black pepper corns
<br>
1 T rosemary leafs
<br>
6 bay leafs
<br>
1 C virgin olive oil
</blockquote>
mixed in bowls to spread the oil and herbs, etc.
These vegetables filled the roasting pan.
<br><br>
In cavity of chickens, placed total of
<blockquote>
2 lemons, in wedges
</blockquote>
Placed chickens breast side down on the vegetables.
<br><br>
Placed on bottom rack of oven at 325 F.
<br><br>
After 20 minutes, some of the exposed vegetables were starting
to burn.
Lowered temperature to 275 F.
Inserted meat thermometer into thigh.
<br><br>
Cooked at 275 F until meat thermometer read 170 F.
<br><br>
Roasting pan had level of liquid about half the depth of the
pan.
<br><br>
<b>Results</b>
<br><br>
Disaster.
<br><br>
Breast meat was not quite done. Dark meat was very underdone
-- inedible. Gagged trying to eat it.
<br><br>
The white meat tasted awful. The lemon gave a little flavor
to a little of the white meat and otherwise no flavor at all.
The vegetables gave no noticeable flavor to the meat.
<br><br>
<b>Really BIG</b> use of time, money, and effort to create
little more than garbage.
Disaster.
<br><br>
Will use the chicken partially eaten along with the vegetables
to make chicken stock.
<br><br>
For the second chicken, will cook again on a rack, open,
breast side up, until the thigh meat temperature is at least
185 F and the drumstick rotates easily.
R. Strauss's 'Ein Heldenleben'?
#438
Posted 16 March 2007 - 06:53 PM
<A HREF="http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=26986&view=findpost&p=1379690">
above.</A>
<br><br>
So, made stock from the roasting pan vegetables and remains of
the first chicken.
<br><br>
For the second chicken, placed on a V-shaped wire rack set in
a roasting pan. Placed chicken on rack breast side up and set
into 275 F oven.
<br><br>
Roasted until oven thermometer in breast meat read 183 F.
<br><br>
Then dark meat was falling off the bone but still juicy.
White meat, from the very thick breast, actually could have
used more cooking but was quite juicy.
<br><br>
Cut up chicken and put meat into a 2 quart Pyrex casserole
dish and put skin and bones into stock pot.
<br><br>
To improve the flavor, made a sauce for the chicken:
<blockquote>
Ingredients
<br><br>
2 C chicken stock directly from the stock pot
<br>
2 C dry white wine
<br>
8 T flour
<br>
8 T butter
<br>
1 1/2 C whole milk, simmering
<br>
1 C whipping cream
<br>
4 egg yolks
<br>
lemon juice
<br>
salt
</blockquote>
Placed stock and wine in a 2 quart pot and reduced to
<blockquote>
1 1/2 C
</blockquote>
In a 2 quart pot, made a white roux of the flour and butter
and added the simmering stock all at once and, off heat,
whipped until smooth.
<br><br>
Added the milk, simmering, all at once.
<br><br>
In a bowl of about 1 quart, mixed egg yolks and cream. Warmed
egg yolks gently by slowly adding, with whipping, about 1/3rd
of the hot sauce and then added yolk mixture to sauce and
whipped. Heated to 140 F and removed from heat.
<br><br>
Added salt and lemon juice to taste.
<br><br>
Sauce was nicely thick, glossy, and had a nice <i>custard</i>
texture and an attractive yellow color.
<br><br>
Added cover to casserole dish and warmed in microwave.
<br><br>
For one serving, added some meat to a bowl and topped with
some of the sauce.
That serving with some toast and Chardonnay made an okay
dinner.
<br><br>
The chicken flavor was not as good as it should be; roasting
from 170 F to 183 F helped, but roasting to, say, 190 F should
have helped some more.
<br><br>
Added the rest of the sauce to the casserole dish, covered,
and refrigerated for dinners in the future.
R. Strauss's 'Ein Heldenleben'?
#439
Posted 18 March 2007 - 09:22 AM
That's why I recommend always using two doneness tests. If the juices of the bird are red or an intense pink, you *know* the bird isn't done. If the drumstick is nearly immovable, you *know* the bird isn't done. If I don't get agreement on "done" on at least 2 doneness tests, I cook the bird longer. It's far more likely that I screwed up placing a thermometer than that my eyes are so wonky I read red juices as clear.
If you roast a chicken on a bed of vegetables, you'll get deeply carmelized vegetables. If you don't care for intense carmelization, this is not a good method. It's also generally better for the hard root vegetables to outweigh the oniony vegetables. Onions cook very quickly, potatoes and carrots cook slowly. So if the onions are buffered in a mostly slower cooking mix of vegetables, they don't get so exposed to the heat and there's less risk of burning. You can also do things like cover exposed portions with foil to minimize burning.
As a basic principle, flavor tends to travel with fat, since most flavor molecules are fat soluble. So if you want a slightly carroty chicken, you can make a carrot flavored compound butter and put it under the skin, or you could cut up small carrot pieces and add them to the chicken's cavity. I suspect carrot coins under the skin could work too, but that might make it harder to get a crisp skin.
The vegetables will get flavored by the chicken, since they get soused in chicken drippings. They will not particularly flavor the chicken, since the fat is busy following the law of gravity and flowing down. Chicken has a very pronounced flavor. You can demonstrate this by making chicken stock. You can get a nicely flavored chicken stock with a very small amount of chicken compared to what you need for a vegetable or beef stock. The chicken will take on some of the lemon flavor from the lemons in the cavity, but it will not be particularly noticable while the chicken is hot unless you do a direct comparison between a lemoned chicken and an unlemoned one. I find the lemon flavor is much more noticable when the chicken is cold.
The amount of liquid you're describing sounds like either the chicken was very freshly killed, or the amount of olive oil was excessive. 1 cup is a lot more than I'd usually use, but I also use a 9*13 baking dish as a roasting pan for chicken. If you're using a larger pan, that amount of oil might be just right.
If the liquid was primarily from the chicken, you had a *very* fresh bird. Those do not behave exactly the same as a less recently dead animal. They contain more water, and thus take longer to cook. You can view cooking as "bring the water contained in food X up to temperature Y". This works because water needs a lot of heat applied to raise its temperature. Most other things we eat take much less heat to have their temperature change, compared to water. (If you want the detailed scientific explanation, just say the word. I find it easier to understand, but it takes a fair bit of math)
#440
Posted 18 March 2007 - 11:06 AM
Thanks for your analysis of the events.
Yes, in the first roasting effort, I just stuck the thermometer into the thigh of one of the two chickens upside down. It did occur to me later that I might have had the sensitive end of the thermometer on a bone or in air. But, with all the data in, now I believe that the thermometer was basically just in the meat and giving a 'valid' reading.
I was so concerned about temperature because I didn't want to dry the breast meat to "chicken dust".
I thought that asking that the lower leg bone twist easily in the knee joint would have the breast meat overdone; as events showed, with these chickens, the breast meat could still be moist.
For cutting the chicken and looking at the color of the juices, I didn't try that. Again I was concerned about getting the breast meat overdone -- again, as events showed, I was too concerned.
In the end, the thermometer did work well: In the second roasting, with the chicken on a V-rack, breast side up, I cooked to 183 F with the thermometer stuck in the breast. The big surprise was how much cooking the breast meat could take and still be moist: In the end, these chickens were amazingly moist throughout. In the second roasting, even when the dark meat was falling off the bones, leaving clean bones, the breast meat was still moist and could have used more cooking.
Why was the breast meat so moist? Maybe the packer found a way to put some 'brine' effect in the liquid. Maybe the main issue was the exceptional thickness of the breast meat.
Whatever the reason, these chickens seem to demand partly rewriting chicken cooking wisdom: Even roasting breast side up on a V-rack, the dark meat can be falling off the bone while the breast meat can use still more cooking.
I did manage not to brown the vegetables by using the oven temperature of 275 F. The remarks in this thread make it clear that for roasting chicken a wide range of temperatures is okay.
For the size of my stainless steel roasting pan, the top, inside dimensions are 15" long, 10 1/4" wide, and 2 1/4" deep. So, the 4 pounds of vegetables filled the pan, and the 1 C of oil was okay.
I put the liquid from the roasting pan in a 4 C Pyrex measuring cup, let it stand to separate, and then set it in the refrigerator. Looking now, I got 3 C total where 1 C is fat, chicken and olive oil. The fat is VERY fragrant of the vegetables!
Altogether, it's been a LOT of work: Everyday I've been pouring, straining, washing big pots and bowls, etc.
But some of the results are okay: From the stock pot, I got 4 quarts of moderately dark chicken stock that will gel in the refrigerator. I've made one effort to let the fat separate and removed it getting 1 C of about half fat and half stock. I've strained the stock through cloth. The 4 quarts left have only trace amounts of fat on the surface, and I plan to remove that.
Then plan to combine all the supplies of fat and freeze it for later and to combine all the supplies of stock, reduce it, freeze it as cubes, and store it for later.
I also got a 2 quart casserole dish of chicken pieces masked with a rich yellow sauce that goes well with Chardonnay! So, stuff some of the chicken and sauce into a 300 ml Pyrex custard dish, top with a microwave proof lid, and warm gently, and can get a good, fast main dish.
With the fat and stock, plan to get two more chickens and continue.
One idea is to use some of the chicken fat and some butter to soften a finely diced mirepoix, add some flour and make a roux, add some of the chicken stock and some milk to make a sauce.
Then, remove the breast meat, flour it, brown it in some of the chicken fat, pour over the gravy, and simmer it covered until done. Additional flavorings could be mushrooms, ham, cheese.
With the rest of the chicken, use the thigh meat in some Chinese stir fry and use the rest for more chicken stock.
You are correct about the specific heat of water -- it is comparatively high, about 1 calorie per gram per degree C from just above 0 C to just below 100 C. Note: 1000 of these calories is one Calorie as used in nutrition.
R. Strauss's 'Ein Heldenleben'?
#441
Posted 18 March 2007 - 11:21 AM
What to do with them?
Above I outlined using the fat and stock to cook more chicken. Another use could be to coat chunks of potatoes and them roast them.
But much better uses may also be possible.
Ideas?
R. Strauss's 'Ein Heldenleben'?
#442
Posted 19 March 2007 - 08:57 AM
“Peter: Oh my god, Brian, there's a message in my Alphabits. It says, 'Oooooo.'
Brian: Peter, those are Cheerios.”
– From Fox TV’s “Family Guy”
#443
Posted 27 March 2007 - 07:24 AM
This post has been edited by Gastro888: 27 March 2007 - 07:25 AM
#444
Posted 27 March 2007 - 11:50 AM
Gastro888, on Mar 27 2007, 08:24 AM, said:
While I think that air drying for a day is a good thing, that's not always the way life works. The chicken I'm cooking tonight will only have air-dryed (after being salted) for a few hours. It will still be yummy.
#445
Posted 27 March 2007 - 12:03 PM
So I'm wondering if I should take my freshly killed chicken and just roast it tonight or should I salt and let it air dry overnight? Would there be a marked difference in taste?
#446
Posted 27 March 2007 - 01:04 PM
Gastro888, on Mar 27 2007, 01:03 PM, said:
So I'm wondering if I should take my freshly killed chicken and just roast it tonight or should I salt and let it air dry overnight? Would there be a marked difference in taste?
Assuming it's a really great chicken (like not supermarket), roast tonight or wait. If it's a great chicken, it won't mattter nearly as much as if it's a "generic" chicken.
#447
Posted 27 March 2007 - 01:15 PM
#448
Posted 27 March 2007 - 01:30 PM
I bought it, pulled the unwanted bits out, washed it, patted it dry, rubbed it with table salt, put it on a bed of onions and garlic cloves, with a split lemon inside it. It was a 5 lb bird and took 2 hours to finish (cant remember what temp I was using).
The top half was perfect skin ( which I snarfed before anyone else could get close) and the lower half wasnt, because it was 'braising' in the vegie juices. I need a roasting rack. Or a beer can.
So my answer is - no, you dont need to let the chicken sit before cooking it.
I picked that sucker clean and used the bones and wings and soggy skin to make a strong stock which has been used to make soup, and rice this week. Some went into the freezer for fast soup in the future.
#450
Posted 28 March 2007 - 05:55 AM
Upon returning home, I took the fresh chicken and removed any stray feathers. Then I rinsed and cleaned it and applied a generous amount of:
-salt
-5 spice powder
-white pepper
-garlic powder
-soy sauce
I roasted the chicken for 15 minutes at 450 and then for 40 minutes at 365. This made for a chicken that was very, very faintly pink at the bone - perfect for me. I dislike well-done chicken.
WOW. It was a *HUGE* difference in taste between my chicken and the standard supermarket one. Even from the ones you get from the Chinese market! The meat was tender, moist and had a flavor to it that was so rich and meaty. Thanks to snowangel for encouraging me to roast a chicken even without the air drying.
This post has been edited by Gastro888: 28 March 2007 - 05:56 AM






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