[JAZ]

jsmeeker, on Mar 22 2008, 09:31 PM, said:

JAZ, on Jun 12 2003, 12:03 PM, said:

Lately I've been on a Lillet (Blond) kick. I've been using it for quite some time in a martini-like drink with mandarin-flavored vodka (Absolut Mandarin is good; Hangar One Madarin Blossom is sublime). Having run out of the Hangar One, I cast around for other ideas and stumbled across the Vesper from Paul Harrington's book (half gin/half vodka plus a splash of the Lillet). Very nice drink.

Janet,

Tell me a little more about this cocktail with the mandarin vodka and the Liellet Blanc. What ratios are you using? You say it's like a martini. Does that mean mandarin vodka instead of gin and the Lillet (a small amount) instead of the white/dry vermouth? Or is there a different ratio? (maybe more Lilltet). Is there anything else??

Jeff, I'm sorry I didn't see this before now. At the time I wrote that (Jeez -- almost 5 years ago!) I'd recently tried a drink at a local bar that was a variation on the Vesper -- with Absolut Mandarin substituted for the regular vodka. Then someone gave me a bottle of the Hangar One Mandarin Blossom, so I was playing around with it. But I haven't made it since. As I recall, I used about a 3:1 mandarin vodka to Lillet ratio, and probably added some orange bitters, if I had them back then.

However, I got a bunch of tangerines and have been making a gin-based drink that's similar. A friend named it the Tableau, which seems right to me, so that's what I'm calling it.

The Tableau

2 oz. gin
1 oz. Lillet
.25 oz. fresh tangerine juice
dash orange bitters

[Mayur]

brinza, on Apr 18 2008, 09:24 AM, said:

This thread has inspired me to buy another bottle of Lillet.  It is great stuff.  I originally bought it when I wanted to make a Corpse Reviver #2 which immediately became a favorite cocktail.  I've made some other great cocktails with it and have enjoyed it straight, but oddly, I have yet to try a Vesper, but I have feeling there is one in this weekend's cocktail agenda.

A bit of a non sequitur, but one tip when making a Vesper from yours truly (I've been working on a Kina Lillet mockup for a little while): Throw in a dash of aromatic bitters. Kina is both slightly more bitter and slightly warm-spicier than Lillet Blond, and it really makes a difference in this cocktail.

Quote

One curious note:  My old bottle had a cork stopper top and a plastic badge or seal glued onto the front of the bottle at the base of the neck.  The new bottle has a screw cap and only embossed glass where the plastic badge used to be.  I hope nothing else has been changed! 

I've got those two types of bottles as well, and I haven't noticed a difference. It's true that they're reformulating all kinds of things now, but I don't think that trend has hit Lillet just yet (fingers crossed... ;) )

[brinza]

Mayur, on May 9 2008, 03:39 PM, said:

A bit of a non sequitur, but one tip when making a Vesper from yours truly (I've been working on a Kina Lillet mockup for a little while): Throw in a dash of aromatic bitters. Kina is both slightly more bitter and slightly warm-spicier than Lillet Blond, and it really makes a difference in this cocktail.

Thanks, Mayur. I'll definitely try that next time. It makes perfect sense.

[eje]

As noted here, it appears my fave Kina Lillet substitute will not be back in the US for a while.

Looking for ideas for creating a Cocchi Americano/Kina Lillet replica.

Things I note:

A relatively round wine base which is not fruity, per se, but not austere. Quinine. Orange. Cinnamon.

Most recently, I was making a drink with Luxardo Maraschino and a generous dash of Angostura and noted similarities, making me suspect there may be bitter almonds or almond hulls in there (not uncommon in very old vermouth recipes).

Other thoughts?

[jmfangio]

eje, on Jun 11 2008, 12:22 PM, said:

As noted here, it appears my fave Kina Lillet substitute will not be back in the US for a while.

Looking for ideas for creating a Cocchi Americano/Kina Lillet replica.

Things I note:

A relatively round wine base which is not fruity, per se, but not austere.  Quinine.  Orange.  Cinnamon.

Most recently, I was making a drink with Luxardo Maraschino and a generous dash of Angostura and noted similarities, making me suspect there may be bitter almonds or almond hulls in there (not uncommon in very old vermouth recipes).

Other thoughts?

Quinine, orange, cinnamon...definitely. But, I just took a quick sip from my open bottle of Cocchi and couldn't really detect any almond note.

This doesn't exactly help out with long term supply issues, since apparently it's not being produced anymore, but I just spotted two bottles of the Duckhorn King Eider vermouth on the shelf at a local wine shop. I haven't tried it yet, but the descriptions I'm reading sound a lot like the Cocchi.

[eje]

jmfangio, on Jun 11 2008, 02:58 PM, said:

Quinine, orange, cinnamon...definitely.  But, I just took a quick sip from my open bottle of Cocchi and couldn't really detect any almond note.
[...]

It never occurred to me either, until I noticed flavor similarities to drinks made with Americano and when I made the Imperial Cocktail. Maybe they're using a grappa to fortify it and that's what I'm tasting?

[bostonapothecary]

eje, on Jun 11 2008, 04:29 PM, said:

jmfangio, on Jun 11 2008, 02:58 PM, said:

Quinine, orange, cinnamon...definitely.  But, I just took a quick sip from my open bottle of Cocchi and couldn't really detect any almond note.
[...]

It never occurred to me either, until I noticed flavor similarities to drinks made with Americano and when I made the Imperial Cocktail. Maybe they're using a grappa to fortify it and that's what I'm tasting?

lillet has a website and does note the use of bitter, sweet and green oranges. and they also only disclose quinine...

they also note 85% base wine and 15% "fruit liqueurs"... then get age it... from their website in the production outline they are apparently confident it ages and young fruit vintages should be blended with portions of older vintages that have developed more a candied fruit style and mature "bouquet"...

they may not be bull shitting... the product could be a case of simple imputs, some aging, blending, and then complex outputs...

i get almond out of some vermentinos but there are no almonds added... quinine is naturally cinnamony...

to make a replica that is fun to drink you would need to cut corners and use complex inputs to generate quickly obtained complex outputs... add almonds to get lillet's natural almond character...


you could also experiment with leaving a bottle directly in the sun for a week or two... creating some expedited aging by radiation and then blending it with the younger stuff and adding a little more quinine... it might do the trick... i keep finding italian liqueur recipes that advocate sun aging...

This post has been edited by bostonapothecary: 11 June 2008 - 09:48 PM

[eje]

They're even closer to the vest on the Cocchi Americano website:

Quote

Giulio Cocchi's original recipe Americano is more that just a simple aperitif in the town of Asti - in fact, it is the aperitif by definition, a piece of this century's local cultural and gastronomic history. This is the original Americano, produced without a break since 1891 according to an entirely natural recipe: white wine aromatized with many herbs and spices, no artificial colouring, flavouring or additive of any kind.
It is produced in limited quantities and matured for a year before being put on sale. The new bottle in that form of the classic clear glass Bordeaux shape is designed to be show the aperitif's natural origins as a wine, quite different to other inventive aperitifs based on alcohol.

This website, from the importer is a bit more forthcoming:

Quote

This golden colored, wine based aperitif is the last product of its type. Called Americano, due to an acoustical distortion of “amaricante,” or bittering component of a drink, these drinks flavored with bitter orange peel, quinine, chinchona bark, and alpine herbs were at the height of their popularity before the turn of the 19th century. Campari, the reknown red colored “bitter” is the most famous. Americano Cocchi was very much sought after in Italy. Still made by the Bava family following the original recipe of its pharmacist inventor, Giulio Cocchi, at Asti in Italy’s Piemonte, this is a wonderful, unusual drink for the summer months.

Interesting about the name!

[Kent Wang]

coolranch, on Jun 18 2003, 09:57 AM, said:

On the rocks, sometimes with a splash of soda for me.
I live in Texas, and my local liquour store sells the rouge.  I've never tried it, but now's as good a time as any to give it a whirl (after looking up some recipes that use it).

Who sells the rouge in Texas? Spec's only has the blond.

[Future Chef]

It's cool that people are talking about Vespers on here. I've been drinking them since that last James Bond movie 'Casino Royale'. I'm surprised they're not more popular. I make 'em with three parts Gin (I use Bulldog gin, it has some citrus notes that mix well with Lillet); one part Vodka, half part Lillet Blond. Gotta make sure it's shaken not stirred (we're talking James Bond here people) and give it a cool looking lemon twist.

I gotta give that drink 'The Tableu' a shot. Thanks for the recipe JAZ.

[eje]

Thinking again about why the Imperial Cocktail seemed similar to a drink made with Cocchi Americano and also the quotes I posted yesterday.

These words from the description came to mind:

Quote

Called Americano, due to an acoustical distortion of “amaricante,” or bittering component of a drink, these drinks flavored with bitter orange peel, quinine, chinchona bark, and alpine herbs were at the height of their popularity before the turn of the 19th century.

Specifically, the "alpine herbs".

Dolin Vermouth de Chambery is specifically made with what they call "alpine herbs".

Other than some alpine species of wormwood, I've never been exactly clear on what is meant by "alpine herbs", but maybe that is where the flavor commonality between the two lies.

[bostonapothecary]

eje, on Jun 12 2008, 12:51 PM, said:

Thinking again about why the Imperial Cocktail seemed similar to a drink made with Cocchi Americano and also the quotes I posted yesterday.

These words from the description came to mind:

Quote

Called Americano, due to an acoustical distortion of “amaricante,” or bittering component of a drink, these drinks flavored with bitter orange peel, quinine, chinchona bark, and alpine herbs were at the height of their popularity before the turn of the 19th century.

Specifically, the "alpine herbs".

Dolin Vermouth de Chambery is specifically made with what they call "alpine herbs".

Other than some alpine species of wormwood, I've never been exactly clear on what is meant by "alpine herbs", but maybe that is where the flavor commonality between the two lies.

thanks for blowing my secret source for vintage lillet... =) i just ordered a couple bottles and they claimed they could ship to boston... wonderful people over there at corti brothers... it seems like that grocery store-wine shop is the sole tiny importer... its really wonderful to see people creating a market for these small traditions...

[eje]

To sort of answer my own question, Ricola's Alpine Herb Extract being the most famous collection of Alpine Herbs: "Ricola's famous herbal extract of plantain (Plantago lanceolata), marshmallow (Althaea officinalis), peppermint (Mentha piperita), thyme (Thymus vulgaris), sage (Salvia officinalis), lady's mantle (Alchemilla vulgaris), elder flowers (Sambucus nigra), cowslip (Primula veris), yarrow (Achillea millefolium), burnet (Pimpinella saxifraga), speedwell (Veronica officinalis), mallow (Malva sylvestris), and horehound (Marrubium vulgare)."

[eje]

bostonapothecary, on Jun 12 2008, 11:59 AM, said:

thanks for blowing my secret source for vintage lillet... =) i just ordered a couple bottles and they claimed they could ship to boston... wonderful people over there at corti brothers... it seems like that grocery store-wine shop is the sole tiny importer... its really wonderful to see people creating a market for these small traditions...

Hey! I didn't say anything about the Jean de Lillet! Dammit, why'd you say anything! Now Mayur's going to buy it all!

Ahem.

Sigh. In the spirit of share and share alike, Mr. BostonApothecary pointed out to me that a certain supplier has a certain product:

Lillet's Secret Reserve - Jean De Lillet

Quote

Réserve Jean de Lillet, always vintage dated, is produced from appellation controlée wines which, depending on the vintage, quality, and pricing, come from Entre-Deux-Mers, Graves, Première Côtes de Bordeaux and even from Sauternes. Peels of sweet and bitter oranges from Spain, Morocco, Haiti, Mexico and South America as well as other secret fruits, eight more, are cold macerated in brandy for four to six months, then blended with the wines and then further aged. For Jean de Lillet, aging is done in oak barriques, a third new and two thirds second use. Aging Jean de Lillet produces remarkable results, but you must do it. The bottling we offer is from the 2004 vintage, which has to be called “LOT 2004.” If you can keep your hands off it, it will age well for years.

According to the Corti Brothers' representative, "Kina Lillet is what Jean de Lillet was called before WWI. The '04 Jean de Lillet that we exclusively have is sweeter than what Kina Lillet was. Kina Lillet no longer exists."

I will also add that the nice folks at Corti Brothers are currently out of stock of Cocchi Americano, but say they will have it back soon. So perhaps all is not lost on the Kina Lillet front!

This post has been edited by eje: 12 June 2008 - 04:30 PM

[Mayur]

eje, on Jun 12 2008, 07:29 PM, said:

bostonapothecary, on Jun 12 2008, 11:59 AM, said:

thanks for blowing my secret source for vintage lillet... =) i just ordered a couple bottles and they claimed they could ship to boston... wonderful people over there at corti brothers... it seems like that grocery store-wine shop is the sole tiny importer... its really wonderful to see people creating a market for these small traditions...

Hey! I didn't say anything about the Jean de Lillet! Dammit, why'd you say anything! Now Mayur's going to buy it all!

MUHAHAHAHAHA!

Actually, in all seriousness, I'm rather fond of what I've got infusing right now: A Moscato Giallo fortified to 17% with unaged brandy, sweetened to about 22 brix, and aromatized with fresh lemon and orange peel, bitter orange peel, quinine, cinnamon, cloves, and (after a conversation with donbert) apricot kernels.

The "alpine herbs" bit is interesting. Any time I've tried putting in anything like a common vermouth herb (thyme, sage, wormwood, elderflower, horehound), my Lillet replica ends up tasting distinctly less... er, Lillet-ish and more like a vermouth (the Martelli Vermouth Classico comes to mind). Somehow, the effect of those herbs is enhanced in something as delicate as Lillet, whereas a more robust aromatized wine (Noilly Ambre or a standard red vermouth) can deal with them.

[jmfangio]

eje, on Jun 11 2008, 03:29 PM, said:

jmfangio, on Jun 11 2008, 02:58 PM, said:

Quinine, orange, cinnamon...definitely.  But, I just took a quick sip from my open bottle of Cocchi and couldn't really detect any almond note.
[...]

It never occurred to me either, until I noticed flavor similarities to drinks made with Americano and when I made the Imperial Cocktail. Maybe they're using a grappa to fortify it and that's what I'm tasting?

OK, I just made an Imperial (Plymouth, Noilly, Luxardo, Angostura), and I absolutely see what you mean about it reminding you of drinks made with Cocchi. There's something about the bit of dryness brought by the Maraschino, and the spice of the Angostura that reminds me as well of the flavor party that Cocchi brings to a cocktail.

And it's a lovely drink, to boot. This one's going in the regular rotation. And I suspect that it might be even better with the Fee's Barrel Aged.

[bostonapothecary]

Mayur, on Jun 12 2008, 06:00 PM, said:

eje, on Jun 12 2008, 07:29 PM, said:

bostonapothecary, on Jun 12 2008, 11:59 AM, said:

thanks for blowing my secret source for vintage lillet... =) i just ordered a couple bottles and they claimed they could ship to boston... wonderful people over there at corti brothers... it seems like that grocery store-wine shop is the sole tiny importer... its really wonderful to see people creating a market for these small traditions...

Hey! I didn't say anything about the Jean de Lillet! Dammit, why'd you say anything! Now Mayur's going to buy it all!

MUHAHAHAHAHA!

Actually, in all seriousness, I'm rather fond of what I've got infusing right now: A Moscato Giallo fortified to 17% with unaged brandy, sweetened to about 22 brix, and aromatized with fresh lemon and orange peel, bitter orange peel, quinine, cinnamon, cloves, and (after a conversation with donbert) apricot kernels.

your project sounds interesting. is a written recipe around the corner?

[eje]

So I tried Cocchi Americano, Lillet Blanc, and Jean de Lillet up against one another tonight.

Lillet Blanc is a fresh, young tasting wine base with a strong orange component.

Cocchi Americano is sweet, very spicy and strongly bitter.

Jean de Lillet would probably be mistaken for a slightly odd French dessert wine. Say a decent young Sauterne. There is a tiny (not forgetting I am very bitter tolerant) bit of bitterness in the aftertaste, but it is all very well incorporated. The wine base is the dominant element, moreso than the other two beverages.

Making drinks, I think I still have a strong preference for the Cocchi Americano. The Jean de Lillet made a very nice Barney Barnato Cocktail, I must admit. But I missed the spicy, bitter kick of the Cocchi Americano.

[bostonapothecary]

eje, on Jun 18 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

So I tried Cocchi Americano, Lillet Blanc, and Jean de Lillet up against one another tonight.

Lillet Blanc is a fresh, young tasting wine base with a strong orange component.

Cocchi Americano is sweet, very spicy and strongly bitter.

Jean de Lillet would probably be mistaken for a slightly odd French dessert wine.  Say a decent young Sauterne.  There is a tiny (not forgetting I am very bitter tolerant) bit of bitterness in the aftertaste, but it is all very well incorporated.  The wine base is the dominant element, moreso than the other two beverages.

Making drinks, I think I still have a strong preference for the Cocchi Americano.  The Jean de Lillet made a very nice Barney Barnato Cocktail, I must admit.  But I missed the spicy, bitter kick of the Cocchi Americano.

i have a feeling that old school lillet is just as boring and orangey as the new stuff... if you want elegant bitter and depth of flavor americanos are were its at... if my jean de lillet ever gets here i'm going to toss it in the wine cellar and bring it up in a few years... the idea of an "odd French dessert wine" sounds awsome...

i just ordered three different americanos that i know nothing about on faith. one is a barolo chinato and the other is made with a moscato base... i will post some reviews if they ever get here... (last time they ended up back ordered) if you like bitter, nardini has some nice 21rst century alto cucina grappa based americanos...

[Bunnyhugs]

Anyone tried Orange Columbo?

It's an orange flavored quinquina from the people who make RinQuinQuin (peah flavored). It is pretty different to either Dubonnet or Lillet (less winey), but has more quinine bitterness than Lillet, and a similar orange flavor.

I've tried cutting it 50/50 with Lillet in Vespers. That comes out pretty nice.

[brinza]

So, I'm experimenting with Lillet Rouge. I bought some for two reasons: because it's almost never called for, and because it's rarely talked about. And because it's readily available in PA (which is strange for an item that so many people have reported being unable to find). Ok, three reasons.

I tried it in a Negroni variation subbing it for the vermouth. The result is a drink that is distinctly different than a Negroni, but very tasty. I'd say the combination works successfully.

Also tried it in a Deshler, subbing it for the Dubonnet. This worked even better. While the Lillet Rouge is certainly not the same as Dubonnet (and many feel it to be a poor substitute), the Deshler didn't suffer from using LR. Like the Negroni, a little different, but quite good.

The biggest failure was in attempting to create something original. It seemed logical that this ingredient should be able to work with brandy somehow. I tried 2 parts brandy, 1 part Lillet Rouge, dash of Grand Marnier, and orange bitters. The result was actually kind of bland and uninteresting. Maybe too much brandy. There still might be the genesis of a decent drink there.

There really is a dearth of recipes that actually call for the stuff. Even Lillet's own website lists only 3 drink recipes (none of them very tempting), while they list a whole slew of recipes for the blanc. As some have already suggested, LR is very good straight (on the rocks), and that may well be its best use, but I see no reason that other good uses for it can't be discovered. Maybe if they called Lillet Rogue . . .