[IrishCream]

I have been wanting to experiment with more Chinese cooking at home but have been deterred byt the fact that many otherwise simple stir-fry dishes call for the meat to go through the velveting or "passing through hot oil" process. To me this complicates a simple stir fry. I really prefer not to deal with hot oil unless I have to (because I am deep-frying).
So my question...is it really necessary? If not, how do i tweak the recipe to compensate for the fact I have omitted that step?

[johnjohn]

Irishcream thanks for starting this thread. I have also been thinking about this for some time and have come across it many times in my research of Chinese cuisine. I have read that velveting can also be done in simmering water instead of oil. Has anyone tried this? Does a certain protein work better than others when velveting?

johnjohn

[pjs]

I've recently started using the velveting technique in some recipies.

I think it makes a real difference in the finished product. All you really need beyond what's needed for a stir-fry is a strainer over a pot for draining and some extra oil which you can reuse.

And everyone knows reused oil tastes better. Up to a point. Of course.

PJ

[Mr. Toast]

Barbara Tropp has a very good discussion of velveting in her two cookbooks. I believe she recommends velveting shrimp in water, chicken in either water or oil, and beef and pork in oil.
And yes, in my experience velveting makes a big difference.

[Stone]

Can you describe this more? I think it may be what I'm missing. I always find that chicken, for example, has a much different . . .sheen? from a restaurant than when I stir-fry at home. It that velveting?

[Fat Guy]

http://www.themediad...t_velveting.htm

[Stone]

Damn. I think I just became a better cook, without entering the kitchen.

[eatingwitheddie]

Virtually every protein has a better texture when it is velveted in oil. The almost invisible egg white and cornstarch coating adds a smooth texture. A good trick is to add a tablespoon of oil to the marinade. This helps to promote the smoothness. Adding some salt to the marinade 'denatures' the protein and after 12 hours or so breaks it down and tenderizes it. By passing the food through oil rather than stir-frying it, one counts on the oil to transmit the heat. If the food is cut precisely, and surrounded by the hot oil, THE HEAT IS EVEN ALL AROUND and all the food cooks at precisely the same rate. In traditional stir-frying the heat is transmitted randomly as pieces of protein come in contact with the surface of the pan. Therefore velveting and egg white marination gives 1) more precise control of texture 2) a more tender product.

While it is possible to velvet chicken and seafood in water, the cooking takes longer because of the water's lower temperature (212 max and much lower after the food goes in), plus the water washes the food and removes flavor. I find it acceptable for dietary reasons but inferior in terms of finished product.

If you try to velvet meat in liquid it will quickly toughen, unless you are using a cut that is naturally extremely tender such as a beef filet or pork tenderloin. Even then you'll be washing it and diluting its natural flavor. Not highly recommended.

It is very important that egg white marinated foods be cooked at no more than 300 degress F., or the pieces will stick to one another.

Sometimes I may marinate protein and then realize I don't have much oil around. I don't hesitate to stir-fry it in the traditional manner using a couple of tablespoons of oil. If I make a tasty sauce and am good about vegetable texture I can get quite a good result.

I know velveting sounds intimidating but in fact it's quite simple once you're accustomed it. Just make sure to have a strainer suspended over an oil pot right next to your wok.

This post has been edited by eatingwitheddie: 25 March 2003 - 11:22 PM

[eatingwitheddie]

Fat Guy, on Mar 26 2003, 12:57 AM, said:

http://www.themediad...t_velveting.htm

These directions are good but:

Don't do it in much in advance because

1) It isn't as good as when it's freshly done
2) If you let it sit warm and covered it will promote bacterial growth and everyone who eats it is in harm's way
3) The recipe gives the impression that after velveting the chicken is then stir-fried. This is only kind of true. After velveting the chicken should just be tossed in the seasoning sauce for a few seconds. This is about flavoring NOT cooking it further. That should have been taken care of by the velveting.

[johnjohn]

What type of oil do you use and how many times can you reuse it?

thanks

johnjohn

[eatingwitheddie]

johnjohn, on Mar 26 2003, 11:19 AM, said:

What type of oil do you use and how many times can you reuse it?

thanks

johnjohn

Any flavorless or flavor complimentary oil.

Soy is most typical. Corn, canola, cottonseed, peanut, lard, all work well. No olive oil please (unless it is flavorless), wrong set of tastes.

[pjs]

johnjohn, on Mar 26 2003, 11:19 AM, said:

What type of oil do you use and how many times can you reuse it?

thanks

johnjohn

I've been using mostly peanut oil, but I also use corn and canola. How many times you can reuse the oil it is a judgement call. Just make sure to strain it well and store it in the fridge. I'd think even the high-end restaurants aren't tossing a quart of oil with every order. Maybe Ed can enlighten us.

At the other end of the spectrum, when I worked a fryolator I remember we changed the oil about once a week. For velveting I'd conservatively say you could reuse it at least 3 or 4 times.

PJ

PS Forgot to mention a thermometer is essential. 300 degrees.

[eatingwitheddie]

johnjohn, on Mar 26 2003, 11:19 AM, said:

Oil, how many times can you reuse it?

RECYCLING OIL WHEN VELVETING FOOD

When you velvet food a great deal of moisture is released into the oil. Usually you're working with a colander/strainer suspended over a pot to catch the velveting oil. The technique for recycling the oil is to let the oil sit undisturbed for a short time; the moisture will sink to the bottom and then the oil on the top is reused. If the oil hasn't been heated to a very high temperature, let's say that it's been kept under 350 degrees F., you can reuse it 5-10 times though you may want to add some fresh oil as you go along. That is what takes place in a restaurant setting where it's being used time after time during one evening. Most chefs feel that oil that has been used already has a better flavor. What is essential however is that when you store oil that has already been used you must get the moisture out of it first or it will turn bad. To do this pour the oil out of the oil pot into your wok taking care not to use the oil from the bottom of the pot which is full of mositure and should be discarded. Now heat the oil in your wok and it will start to make cracking noises. You need to be careful about not getting too much moisture in the oil or it will splatter and can become dangerous. When the cracking subsides the moisture has been evaporated and you can now let it cool and then cover and store it until you want to use it again. I would suggest refrigerating this oil in case there still is a bit of residual moisture. Theoretically it will stay fresh for a couple of months, but I would suggest using it up more quickly than that.

An interesting detail is that recycled oil is more appropriate for stir-fry dishes with dark colored sauces. When I make a white sauce I always start with fresh oil to maximize the lightness/ clear white color of the finished product. Recycled oil tends to produce a less clean looking result which is masked by a dark sauce.

This post has been edited by eatingwitheddie: 27 March 2003 - 09:18 PM

[eatingwitheddie]

pjs, on Mar 27 2003, 09:54 PM, said:

I've been using mostly peanut oil, but I also use corn and canola.

With regard to using peanut oil for your cooking, unlike regular vegetable oils which are flavorless, peanut oil has a distinct taste. Depending upon what you're doing, it may or may not be a complimentary flavor. Planters, the main American peanut oil is quite mildly flavored, but the Hong Kong peanut oils such as Lion & Globe brand have MUCH more flavor. I find them particularly delicious but would prefer to see them used for a spicy Szechuan dish. Whereas a subtle Cantonese seafood item might, in my opinion, be overwhelmed by that sort of nuttiness. Anyway freshly rendered lard really tastes better than anything else! Cantonese chefs even use chicken fat as a flavoring. If only Grandma Goldie knew!!

This post has been edited by eatingwitheddie: 27 March 2003 - 09:15 PM

[pjs]

Thanks for explaining the oil issues Ed. The peanut oil I've been using is a nondescript store brand without much flavor. I like the high heat tolerance for frying things like french fries. I have three quart jars of used oil in the fridge at the moment. One for velveting, one for fries and one for breaded seafood.

I also have a jar of rendered chicken fat that I use for finishing Cantonese recipies that call for it. Of course I also use the chicken fat when I'm making chopped liver.

PJ

[eatingwitheddie]

So, how are we doing with our velveting?

[snowangel]

eatingwitheddie, on Apr 3 2003, 09:08 PM, said:

So, how are we doing with our velveting?

Been velveting for years without any trouble, thanks to my "cooking classes" at Wei-Chuan in Taiwan lo those many years ago (mid '70's). Barbara Tropp does a nice job of explaining, as well, but as stated earlier in this thread, I'd go with oil for just about everyting.

Not velveting deprives.

[IrishCream]

Sigh...I am still wishing I could find a way to avoid it, but this thread has pretty much convinced me that it is worth the extra effort (and fat calories?). I dug through my cupboards and found a little contraption called a "Fry Baby" that I haven't used in years....it allows one to deep fry small quantities without a ton of oil. But I still need Sichuan Peppercorns! Any thoughts on that, Eddie?

[eatingwitheddie]

IrishCream, on Apr 4 2003, 02:50 AM, said:

Sigh...I am still wishing I could find a way to avoid it, but this thread has pretty much convinced me that it is worth the extra effort (and fat calories?).  I dug through my cupboards and found a little contraption called a "Fry Baby" that I haven't used in years....it allows one to deep fry small quantities without a ton of oil.  But I still need Sichuan Peppercorns!  Any thoughts on that, Eddie? 

Don't use a deep fryer, use your wok, and make sure you have an
oil pot with a colander suspended over it right next to it before starting.

The reason you shouldn't use your fryer is that when you velvet egg white and cornstarch marinated food, the pieces tend to stick together, especially if the oil a is a little bit too hot. One of the essential parts of the process is to swirl or stir the food in the oil immediately after putting it there. Your goal is to separate the pieces from one another quickly so that they cook evenly. The deep fryer complicates this needlessly. The wok is made for it and it seems a simple and natural thing to do.

As far as extra calories go I don't think so. Why? Well both techniques call for cooking the protein in oil. When you velvet food you remove it from the wok and clean out the pan before saucing. You will need to add about 1T of oil back into the pan in order to sauce the food. If you were to stir-fry that same protein you'd need about 2-3 tablespoons of oil in the wok and that would most likely be incorporated into the sauce. There is typically more oil in the final product of a stir-fried dish than in a velveted one.

This post has been edited by eatingwitheddie: 04 April 2003 - 09:43 AM

[margaret]

What effect would velveting have on tofu or soy protein?

[stellarWOK]

eatingwitheddie, on Apr 3 2003, 08:08 PM, said:

So, how are we doing with our velveting?

I realize this thread seems to have died several months ago, but I picked it up from a Google search about Velveting Chicken. So, if anyone is still tracking this topic, I'd appreciate the input.
Granted, velveting imparts a distinctive texture to the food prepared in this way. So far, the techniques here mention velveting with oil. In another forum, I found references to velveting with boiling water, or perhaps broth. Has anyone compared these techiques? Supposedly, the non-oil method makes a "softer, livelier" texture. any thoughts?

[mudbug]

margaret,
Why would you want to do that to tofu? Unless it's the hard tofu, the others already have a velvety surface.


stellarWOK,

Quote

..the oil method gives the meat a firmer texture, the water method produces a softer coating.

From: The Key to Chinese Cooking by Irene Kuo

Even in the water method, there should be a bit of oil (one quart water/one tablespoon oil). Just try it both methods at the same time from the same meat and see if you can tell a difference...

Some will say certain meats are better with one method versus another.

[stellarWOK]

I'm sorry...did I mention tofu? I was thinking primarily of chicken and beef. I've encountered velveted Kung Pao Chicken at a restaurtant in San Diego. It ws the most unique version of Kung Pao I've ever had, and the most memorable. Unlike the usual thigh meat, it seemd to be velveted white meat.
I was trying to cut down on experimenting since each attempt at the the perfect Kun Pao is a very controlled set of variables.

No?

[mudbug]

stellarWOK,
If you check the post again, you'll notice the first was a response for margaret.

;)

As for experimentation, I don't see that it would be difficult as velveting is the prep for the rest of the dish.

Just prepare everything you need, divide the meat in half, velvet with each method and continue with the rest of the recipe for each. It's the only way you're going to know for sure for yourself.

[titus wong]

Eddie:

Sorry for resurrecting this thread, but I've read it countless times in order to assimilate the information. I have 2 questions:

1. As a professional chef, do you use a thermometer every time you velvet food in order to gauge the optimum temperature of 300º F. precisely, or do you have a short-hand method of doing this? I have read from various sources that you can dip a scallion or a chopstick into the oil and observe how rapidly it effervesces. Supposedly, if a constant stream of small bubbles arises from a chopstick, the oil is hot enough to begin velveting. Is this a reliable method or is it hooey? Can you suggest an alternative, or do you recommend a thermometer?

2. After velveting, the protein retains a great deal of oil. Do you recommend blotting the food on paper towels? Is there a better way to drain the residual oil from the protein or do you just proceed with the recipe as is?

I must admit, I've only velveted food for those rare occasions when I'm entertaining and want to impress. Usually, I skip velveting and simply stir-fry the meat component in most dishes. Naturally the meat is drier, and the overall dish no doubt suffers for the omission. As I have no aspirations of becoming a professional chef however, I choose to skip velveting for dietary reasons and as a matter of convenience. Folks still seem to be able to stomach the end result regardless.

[Gary Soup]

titus wong, on Sep 5 2003, 02:34 PM, said:

1.  As a professional chef, do you use a thermometer every time you velvet food in order to gauge the optimum temperature of 300º F. precisely, or do you have a short-hand method of doing this? 

I'm not familiar with the term "velveting", but it sounds like the way my wife makes "Shanghai Shrimp". Is this what is called "slippery frying", or maybe "liu" (—­) in Chinese? I don't look over her shoulder, but I can assure you that she never uses a thermometer.

[eatingwitheddie]

titus wong, on Sep 5 2003, 04:34 PM, said:

Eddie:



1. Do you use a thermometer every time you velvet food?
2.  After velveting, the protein retains a great deal of oil.  Do you recommend blotting the food on paper towels?  Is there a better way to drain the residual oil from the protein or do you just proceed with the recipe as is?

.

Today I rarely use a thermometer to check oil temperature, though when I first started 'velveting' I did. Over time one can learn how to discern the temperature of the oil by looking at it: heat waves appear in the oil when it approaches cooking temperature.

Keep in mind that you want to COOK the food at 280-300 degrees F. When you put cold food in hot oil, the oil loses heat. The temperature of the food and the volume of oil and the strength of the heat source (this promotes rapid temperature recovery) all effect the process. Very often I start my velveting when the oil is at a slightly higher temperature, say 325 F, knowing that the oil will decrease in temperature as soon as I put my protein in. If the oil is too hot, all the egg white marinated pieces will stick together in a lump and the process won't work well. By the way if your oil is too hot have some room temperature oil at your side and quickly mix some in. This lowers the temperature immediately.

With regard to oil in your finished product, it's my experience that the protein absorbs much less oil than you might think. Oil does cling to the food. After removing the protein from the oil bath let it drain well for about 30 seconds making sure to shake the colander a few times to facilitate removal. Your wok should be coated with a film of oil, but much less than you would have in it if you were stir-frying the protein. Your wok should then be ready to sauce the blanched food.

I consistently have very little oil in my finished dishes when I velvet. In fact I sometimes have to add some oil to the finished dish to give it a little extra sheen and smoothness. For example this week I was in California and came across some unusually delicious fresh Hawaiian shrimp which I made with with fresh chanterelles and broccoli: at the end of the saute I tossed in a 1/2t of sesame oil and 2t of chicken fat. BIG YUM.

[lorea]

Thanks for the great tips on velveting! I have several Chinese cookbooks and I don't think anybody ever really described it. I have a couple of questions though:

1) Is velveting also normally done to beef? Is that why the beef is always so tender in restaurants? (Also, what cut of beef do they normally use for stir-fried dishes?)

2) Is there a safe way to pour the hot oil out of the wok and into the oil container? This sounds rather dangerous!

Thanks!!

[eatingwitheddie]

lorea, on Sep 25 2003, 03:28 AM, said:

Is velveting also normally done to beef?  Is that why the beef is always so tender in restaurants? 

Good question.

Yes velveting is done to beef and yes that is one of the reasons it can be so tender. However, in the case of beef, when it is extremely tender it is often that way because before marinating it in egg white and wine, it has first been treated with baking soda. This is a trick professional Cantonese chefs use. They dissolve a small amount of baking soda in water and soak the beef in it for some hours. This really breaks down the texture so that cuts like flank steak become quite soft. After soaking, the soda is rinsed away with water, the beef is dried, marinated in egg white, and eventually cooked. The negative side of this process is that all the juices are leached out of the meat and the meat's natural beefiness is minimized in favor of its texture. They count on a flavorful stir-fry sauce to counteract the lack of natural beef taste.

There are also other significant factors which affect the beef's tenderness. They include:
1) the temperature of the velveting oil - too hot and the beef will toughen
2) the amount of time you toss the velveted beef in its sitr-fry sauce - the shorter the time the better, just long enough to coat the food with the sauce is the goal - if you boil the meat in the sauce it will toughen
3) and very significantly the quality/tenderness of the meat you start with

[eatingwitheddie]

lorea, on Sep 25 2003, 03:28 AM, said:

What cut of beef do they normally use for stir-fried dishes?)

Flank steak is the most common cut. Its shape, texture and leaness work well. However any naturally tender cut of beef will work well. If it makes a tender steak it will make a tender stir-fry.

Since I prefer to bring out the natural beef taste and juices in my cooking I shy away from baking soda marination. Also egg white marination, since it includes salt, will also remove some of the beef's juices. I therefore tend to use naturally tender cuts and marinate them with egg white but not for so long. I count on good stir-fry technique and naturally tender beef to achieve the results I want.

Cuts of meat that work well include:

1) Tenderloin (filet mignon)
2) NY Strip - good quality
3) Short loin - Porterhouse or t-bone
4) However, when I can find an extremely marbelized one (not easy), my favorite cut is taken from the thin end of the chuck blade. Variously sold under the names of chicken steak, butter steak, beef blade steak, and more recently marketed by some cutting edge restaurateurs as flat-iron steak (a piece about flat-irons recently appeared in the NY Times), this cut can be both extremely tender and delicious. It has a very beefy taste and buttery texture, but only when it quite fat, and only the slices from the thinner end of the cut work well. The thicker end of the piece has too much gristle to be sliced into the correct shape. Before slicing it needs to be trimmed of its large center gristle and exterior membranes.

Chicken steak is found in supermarkets and kosher butchers among other places. When it is sliced into steaks you can see how marbeled it is. I often travel to 3 or 4 different supermarkets looking for a sufficiently marbled piece. Even then my seach is sometimes not fruitful and I end up using an alternative. Chicken steak is quite economical, usually costing less than $4/lb. It makes a mean stew/pot roast by the way.

Avoid cuts (which might seem logical to use) such as:
Hangar - too coarse and toughens very easily during a stir-fry
Boneless sirloin - not tender enough unless very prime and very aged
Skirt - Too thin to cut into correctly shaped slices
Round - not suitable/tender enough