Manufacturers' directions are stoopid

[Fat Guy]

The discussion of how to clean a Silpat reminded me of the silliness of so many manufacturers' directions and warnings when it comes to cookware.

On any given day, I'm sure half the stuff in my dishwasher is not "dishwasher safe." Life is too short to hand wash anything you don't have to hand wash.

I put plenty of stuff in the freezer, oven and microwave even when it says not to. Once in a while this turns out to be a mistake, but rarely.

I ignore most instructions on how to season and otherwise care for cookware.

What I don't understand is why manufacturers' instructions often display so little understanding of their products. What's up with that?

[heidih]

Lawyers and product liability litigation I think.

[Fat Guy]

That certainly explains why food processors have become so much more difficult to turn on over the years. Safety interlocks run amok are the order of the day, and that's directly attributable to lawyers and product liability. But what injury is going to come of putting a Silpat in the dishwasher? I vote for denseness not lawyers.

[David A. Goldfarb]

Well, if putting a Silpat in the dishwasher could cause fiberglass particles to come loose and find their way into the cookies, it might be cause for concern.

[Fat Guy]

Someone might also put one in the oven and get burned. With kitchen tools we're talking about things with blades, things to which we apply flame, etc. It seems like warning against speculative minor hazards while selling such products is like, I don't know, putting a warning on a firearm that says "CAUTION: Do not drop on toe."

[eatenmess]

i think its covering their arses gone mad. the other day i was helping my friend cook at his house and when i put a dish in the oven he immediately asked if it said it was oven proof. like its going implode as soon as i close the door.

when will we ever let common sense prevail?

[prasantrin]

If people are smug enough to disregard the manufacturer's directions and put Silpat in the dishwasher, then it wouldn't surprise me if those same people were smug enough to put the Silpat next to knives or bend the Silpat in such a way to make it fit into a particular space, etc. etc. Then should that Silpat get cut or torn, it wouldn't surprise me at all if those same smug people would be the first in line to sue the manufacturer when fiberglass particles got into their cookies or whatever.

I say "smug" rather than "stupid" or "dense" because it most cases, it's more a matter of "I know better than the manufacturers" or "Nothing bad will ever happen to me" than pure ignorance or stupidity. Kind of like how any dumb dumb should know not to put a cup of hot coffee between her legs when she's driving, but she does, anyway, and then sues the restaurant when she gets burned. Or like how anyone with a brain should know not to hold a stale baguette in her hand when trying to slice into it with a serrated knife, but she does it anyway because she thinks she's too smart or careful to slice her finger open.

[Fat Guy]

Yes, corporations always tell the truth. They know best. We should always listen to and do exactly as they say, rather than listen to common sense, lest we appear smug.

[prasantrin]

Common sense isn't that common.

[Mano]

If people are smug enough to disregard the manufacturer's directions and put Silpat in the dishwasher, then it wouldn't surprise me if those same people were smug enough to put the Silpat next to knives or bend the Silpat in such a way to make it fit into a particular space, etc. etc. Then should that Silpat get cut or torn, it wouldn't surprise me at all if those same smug people would be the first in line to sue the manufacturer when fiberglass particles got into their cookies or whatever.

I say "smug" rather than "stupid" or "dense" because it most cases, it's more a matter of "I know better than the manufacturers" or "Nothing bad will ever happen to me" than pure ignorance or stupidity. Kind of like how any dumb dumb should know not to put a cup of hot coffee between her legs when she's driving, but she does, anyway, and then sues the restaurant when she gets burned. Or like how anyone with a brain should know not to hold a stale baguette in her hand when trying to slice into it with a serrated knife, but she does it anyway because she thinks she's too smart or careful to slice her finger open.

I don't know that's a matter of smugness as opposed to making an educated decision. In the oven Silpat is exposed to 350F and higher while in the dishwasher the maximum is probably 212F for both washing and drying.

A better analogy is washing clothes marked "dry clean only." Dry cleaning uses harsh chemicals, which get out the dirt and stains, but depletes some of the oils found in natural fibers such as wool and cotton. Washing at home is more gentle and if you're careful not to burn the fabric while ironing there's no harm done.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Mano (log)

[Darienne]

Or like how anyone with a brain should know not to hold a stale baguette in her hand when trying to slice into it with a serrated knife, but she does it anyway because she thinks she's too smart or careful to slice her finger open.

I wonder who you are talking about in this quote?

I have no sense of the physicality of stuff, of the laws that govern space and sharp instruments and fragile objects landing on hard surfaces and how heat travel and things like that. It's not that intellectually I cannot comprehend the laws...it's just that I can't seem to translate them into my extremities, as if my hands are not connected to my brain. Thus I am doomed forever to be over-represented in this eGullet thread.

[prasantrin]

Or like how anyone with a brain should know not to hold a stale baguette in her hand when trying to slice into it with a serrated knife, but she does it anyway because she thinks she's too smart or careful to slice her finger open.

I wonder who you are talking about in this quote?

I've only done it once, I swear!

I also once slid a sponge along the sharp part of a knife blade and sliced my finger open that way.

[slkinsey]

Most likely the caution against cleaning Silpat in the dishwasher is due to the fact that the abrasives and extremely alkaline dishwasher detergents would degrate the "smoothness" of the surface of the Silpat, thereby reducing its nonstick properties.

[prasantrin]

I don't know that's a matter of smugness as opposed to making an educated decision. In the oven Silpat is exposed to 350F and higher while in the dishwasher the maximum is probably 212F for both washing and drying.

A better analogy is washing clothes marked "dry clean only." Dry cleaning uses harsh chemicals, which get out the dirt and stains, but depletes some of the oils found in natural fibers such as wool and cotton. Washing at home is more gentle and if you're careful not to burn the fabric while ironing there's no harm done.

But if you're making an educated decision, then surely you're also considering that the chemicals in dishwasher detergent may be harsher than those for handwashing dishes, and that those chemicals can harm the item in question.

. . .the detergent is strongly alkaline (basic) and glass dissolves slowly in alkaline aqueous solution. It becomes more soluble in the presence of silicates in the water (added as anti-metal-corrosion agents in the dishwasher detergent).

Components found in dishwasher detergents can chemically scour the glass, causing tiny crystals, which can precipitate further crystal growth that can turn entire glasses cloudy

(all quotations from Wiki)

(eta--darn, slkinsey beat me to it)

Anyway, to make the stretch that I'm assuming

corporations always tell the truth. They know best. We should always listen to and do exactly as they say, rather than listen to common sense, lest we appear smug.

is ridiculous. I believe in the rationalization of knowledge, but that it must involve looking outside one's current knowledge base for possible alternatives, not just making judgments based on what one thinks one already knows. To me, making an educated decision implies educating oneself further, and then making the decision.

Edited September 23, 2009 by prasantrin (log)

[baroness]

But if you're making an educated decision, then surely you're also considering that the chemicals in dishwasher detergent may be harsher than those for handwashing dishes, and that those chemicals can harm the item in question.

. . .the detergent is strongly alkaline (basic) and glass dissolves slowly in alkaline aqueous solution. It becomes more soluble in the presence of silicates in the water (added as anti-metal-corrosion agents in the dishwasher detergent).

Components found in dishwasher detergents can chemically scour the glass, causing tiny crystals, which can precipitate further crystal growth that can turn entire glasses cloudy

(all quotations from Wiki)

(eta--darn, slkinsey beat me to it)

This shows the problems with Wikipedia.

Glass HAS no crystals (it is in a supercooled liquid state in temperatures under 800F or so), or ability to MAKE crystals.

Glass can be etched by acids or sandblasting.

[Florida]

Product Liability:

1) The manufacturer has a duty to warn

2) If the manufacturer does not warn, then they have breached their duty

3) If someone injuries themselves or somehow otherwise incurs damages as a result of the manufacturer’s failure to warn, there is negligence on the

manufacture’s part.*

4) If the manufacturer is negligent, the someone (plaintiff) would be owed damages.

* In all actuality, product liability is typically governed through the concept of "strict liability" in which the plaintiff does not even need

to prove the manufacture was negligent, only that the product was defective. Failure to warn is considered a "marketing defect."

On a less legalistic note,

as slk noted above, maybe dishwashing a Silpat causes it to become less effective. As a person uses the less effective Silpat, they start to complain about how it is no longer non-stick. They vow to never buy a Silpat again and then go on a culinary website to complain about how Silpats suck and no one should buy them.

Silpat's website indicates: "Avoid using automatic dishwashers, as they may harm the SILPAT." Since Silpat is the expert when it comes to Silpats, I personally would defer to their expertise. I don't know whether the potential "harm" could cause me injury or just cause the Silpat to become less effective, but I must assume they are giving this advice for a reason.

[Mano]

But if you're making an educated decision, then surely you're also considering that the chemicals in dishwasher detergent may be harsher than those for handwashing dishes, and that those chemicals can harm the item in question.

. . .the detergent is strongly alkaline (basic) and glass dissolves slowly in alkaline aqueous solution. It becomes more soluble in the presence of silicates in the water (added as anti-metal-corrosion agents in the dishwasher detergent).

Components found in dishwasher detergents can chemically scour the glass, causing tiny crystals, which can precipitate further crystal growth that can turn entire glasses cloudy

Good points I hadn't thought of. Factoring them and FG's success putting it in the dishwasher (I know, sample size of 1) it would be up to me to make an educated decision.

[fooey]

On any given day, I'm sure half the stuff in my dishwasher is not "dishwasher safe." Life is too short to hand wash anything you don't have to hand wash.

I'm with you on that. Short of my sister's children, there's not much I won't put in the dishwasher, not that I'm not tempted.

Good knives? Yup, dishwasher!

Expensive All-Clad "do not put in dishwasher" Masterchefs? Yup, dishwasher! (and after 10 years, not one single problem).

I've even put kitchen electrics in the dishwasher, but I know to let them dry completely before plugging them in. (Caveat emptor: don't sue me if you try this!)

Cast iron is the only exception I can think of, but that's because the last time I put the 12" Lodge in the dishwasher, I forgot is was in there.

By the time I remembered, it was badly rusted and required re-seasoning, adding another notch to my "cast iron really ain't that great!" belt.

Edited September 23, 2009 by fooey (log)

[Aloha Steve]

On any given day, I'm sure half the stuff in my dishwasher is not "dishwasher safe." Life is too short to hand wash anything you don't have to hand wash.

They have even put a Apple wireless keyboard in a dishwasher and it worked afterward so THEY say.

It is product liability, plain and simple which causes the manufactures to write directions as if to children and to be OTT in warning scenarios.

It is because: FACT, we live in a litigious country. Our country is the number one consumer of many products therefore directions are written for the lowest denominator, hoping they might read said instructions before usage.

For us enlightened foodies, it is humorous and maybe stoopid too.

Of course someone of my superior intellect can just rely on his innate ability to know correct directions and techniques.

As exampled here.....egullet post

Edited September 23, 2009 by Aloha Steve (log)

[Fat Guy]

I must assume they are giving this advice for a reason.

You would think. And surely there's a reason. But it doesn't mean it's a valid reason you need to listen to.

If for example the reality of Silpats is that if you wash them in the dishwasher they degrade after 100 washings, whereas if you wash them by hand they last for 200 washings, that to me is just not worth it for a $15 item. That waste of 5 minutes over the course of 100 washings is 500 minutes. I'd rather spend that time doing something enjoyable and letting a machine wash the dishes.

And of course, the Silpat people say nothing about danger. So it's probably not a product liability issue. If there is a danger, Silpat has still failed to warn of that danger. If the manufacturers' directions said that washing in the dishwasher could be dangerous to me, I might consider that. If it's just that the dishwasher increases wear, as I imagine is the case, I don't care.

To me, making an educated decision implies educating oneself further, and then making the decision.

One way to educate oneself is to read Wikipedia. Another way is to run an actual Silpat or Exopat through the dishwasher a few dozen times and see what happens. I've done the latter. So has JAZ, as she noted on the Silpat topic. No harm has befallen our baking mats or us.

This is not the only time something like this has happened. Over the course of years of cooking, I've learned that manufacturers' directions often do not predict reality. I've surely saved myself hundreds of hours of hand-washing things that survived the dishwasher just fine. And that's just the beginning of why I treat manufacturers' directions with a healthy dose of skepticism. Every culinary professional I know does too.

This body of evidence -- and I'm sure we'll hear more and more testimony as this topic carries on -- is more than adequate justification for the ongoing assumption that manufacturers' directions are no substitute for real-world experience.

[baroness]

One way to educate oneself is to read Wikipedia. Another way is to run an actual Silpat or Exopat through the dishwasher a few dozen times and see what happens. I've done the latter. So has JAZ, as she noted on the Silpat topic. No harm has befallen our baking mats or us.

This is not the only time something like this has happened. Over the course of years of cooking, I've learned that manufacturers' directions often do not predict reality. I've surely saved myself hundreds of hours of hand-washing things that survived the dishwasher just fine. And that's just the beginning of why I treat manufacturers' directions with a healthy dose of skepticism. Every culinary professional I know does too.

This body of evidence -- and I'm sure we'll hear more and more testimony as this topic carries on -- is more than adequate justification for the ongoing assumption that manufacturers' directions are no substitute for real-world experience.

I heartily agree about the value of real-world experience.

I do NOT believe in relying on Wikipedia as the information is constantly changing and sometimes VERY incorrect.

I do believe most of what I read here on eG.

[prasantrin]

One way to educate oneself is to read Wikipedia. Another way is to run an actual Silpat or Exopat through the dishwasher a few dozen times and see what happens. I've done the latter. So has JAZ, as she noted on the Silpat topic. No harm has befallen our baking mats or us.

This is not the only time something like this has happened. Over the course of years of cooking, I've learned that manufacturers' directions often do not predict reality. I've surely saved myself hundreds of hours of hand-washing things that survived the dishwasher just fine. And that's just the beginning of why I treat manufacturers' directions with a healthy dose of skepticism. Every culinary professional I know does too.

This body of evidence -- and I'm sure we'll hear more and more testimony as this topic carries on -- is more than adequate justification for the ongoing assumption that manufacturers' directions are no substitute for real-world experience.

No harm of which you are aware has befallen you or the mats. I would challenge you to send it in for testing every dozen or so washings to determine when/if it is damaged--whether in a way that can cause you harm, or just in losing its non-stick coating. Just because you can't see a problem, doesn't mean it isn't there.

Manufacturers have warnings for reasons--so they don't get sued. They surely must have a reason to think they may be sued should a consumer do the things the manufacturer is suggesting they not do. Given the hundreds of thousands of dollars they put into researching and testing products, why would they bother spending the ink on the extra print of warnings were there not some, however miniscule, chance of a problem?

I do believe most of what I read here on eG.

That is akin to believing whole-heartedly in Wiki.

[Fat Guy]

I would challenge you to send it in for testing every dozen or so washings

I doubt that's a realistic suggestion but if you can figure out where to "send it in for testing" and it doesn't cost too much money I'll happily do it.

[Fat Guy]

To repeat what has been posted above, the Silpat website says:

Avoid using automatic dishwashers, as they may harm the SILPAT.

The Matfer (Exopat) website just says "easy to clean with sponge."

There is no mention on either website of any concern for human safety. All this talk of liability is a non sequitur. The language clearly says only that the dishwasher may harm the Silpat.

I don't care. Let it harm my Silpat. It's not a child, a pet or even a plant. It's a rubberized silicone baking mat that costs $15.

Not a question of liability. Just bad advice.

[prasantrin]

To repeat what has been posted above, the Silpat website says:

Avoid using automatic dishwashers, as they may harm the SILPAT.

The Matfer (Exopat) website just says "easy to clean with sponge."

There is no mention on either website of any concern for human safety. All this talk of liability is a non sequitur. The language clearly says only that the dishwasher may harm the Silpat.

I don't care. Let it harm my Silpat. It's not a child, a pet or even a plant. It's a rubberized silicone baking mat that costs $15.

Not a question of liability. Just bad advice.

It's not bad advice if people care about keeping their item in decent condition as long as possible. Not everyone can be so cavalier about $15.