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No-Knead Pizza - New York Magazine


weinoo

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... But we all remember that the "original" recipe for no-knead bread was practically a disaster.

Not entirely all. If you'll forgive an ignorant question (ignorant because I haven't tried it), other than evident novelty, why use "no-knead" dough? I ask because (1) fine pizzas can be made with relatively little kneading (compared to bread), (2) the kneading is a tiny part of the total dough-making time and (3) based on this thread, even if the no-knead method eliminates one issue, it adds others.

(For many years I've just made a simple pizza dough, as described in Italian cookbooks for generations. I'd often slow-rise it in the refrigerator, in an oiled metal bowl, and make plenty of extra, freezing one-pizza portions, which works out fine -- they can stay frozen for weeks or months and then "revive." With the right amount of water, and the resting that rising implies, the dough is soft and elastic and easy to shape.)

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... But we all remember that the "original" recipe for no-knead bread was practically a disaster.

Not entirely all. If you'll forgive an ignorant question (ignorant because I haven't tried it), other than evident novelty, why use "no-knead" dough? I ask because (1) fine pizzas can be made with relatively little kneading (compared to bread), (2) the kneading is a tiny part of the total dough-making time and (3) based on this thread, even if the no-knead method eliminates one issue, it adds others.

(For many years I've just made a simple pizza dough, as described in Italian cookbooks for generations. I'd often slow-rise it in the refrigerator, in an oiled metal bowl, and make plenty of extra, freezing one-pizza portions, which works out fine -- they can stay frozen for weeks or months and then "revive." With the right amount of water, and the resting that rising implies, the dough is soft and elastic and easy to shape.)

It's of course firstly a matter of preference. But if you want a high hydration dough for the reasons mentioned above, they can be quite difficult to knead. Plus, if you're fermenting and retarding for a long period of time, the dough doesn't need to be kneaded because the gluten will come together as if it were kneaded over that period of time anyway. As I understand it, kneading is a time-saver: it speeds up a process that will happen naturally. Many people these days like the flavor that comes with doughs that have been fermented/retarded for a long period of time and the texture that comes with wet doughs, so its a win-win.

nunc est bibendum...

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Max, I think you misinterpret "no-knead." It doesn't really mean no kneading at all. Rather it means "minimal kneading (i.e., thorough mixing) followed by a long rise for gluten development."

What you describe as your practice of "relatively little kneading" followed by "slow-rise in the refrigerator" is more or less analogous to my so-called "no-knead" prodedure.

Not sure what issues this technique adds, however. Regardless of what technique I might be using for gluten development, I regard high hydration as a necessary component for a high quality pizza dough (or bread dough, for that matter). Different people have different goals and preferences, of course. But I don't see the challenges of working with a high hydration dough as being tied to the no-knead technique. Or are there other issues you have in mind?

Edited by slkinsey (log)

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I think the big advantage of the no-knead doughs, with their long fermentation times, is that they taste better. Plus all the stuff Sam said.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
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I think the big advantage of the no-knead doughs, with their long fermentation times, is that they taste better.

This is about the long fermentation time, which isn't unique to no-knead recipes.

True. However, if you are going to do an extra-long fermentation, there is no need to extensively knead the dough as the gluten is developed chemically and by the mechanical action of the dough rising and falling. Gluten development via kneading is really only necessary for relatively short rising times.

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So it seems to me from what's been said here (and thanks to all for the various opinions) is that you want a wet dough for texture (and taste, but to a lesser degree); and you want a slow rise/long fermentation for taste.

Further, it seems obvious that since you don't need to knead the dough vigorously for gluten development if you're letting it ferment for a longer period time, you may as well skip it.

Finally, it also seems that a wet dough would be harder and messier to knead, but that the wet dough and the lack of kneading don't necessarily have to go hand in hand. In other words, you could have a drier dough and let it ferment longer rather than knead it; just as you could have a wetter dough and knead it.

Is that it, more or less?

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Gluten development via kneading is really only necessary for relatively short rising times.

It depends on what you mean by "relatively short" rising times. Roman-style pizza bianca, a really wet, slack dough, requires long (15-20 minutes) machine/mixer kneading, as well as a 4-6 hour rise. I've tried to do an overnight rise without kneading, but the resulting texture is all wrong for pizza bianca.

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Gluten development via kneading is really only necessary for relatively short rising times.

It depends on what you mean by "relatively short" rising times. Roman-style pizza bianca, a really wet, slack dough, requires long (15-20 minutes) machine/mixer kneading, as well as a 4-6 hour rise. I've tried to do an overnight rise without kneading, but the resulting texture is all wrong for pizza bianca.

I would call 4 hours from mixer to oven a relatively short rising time.

I certainly wouldn't say that long-rise gluten development works for every style of bread product, any more than a natural leaven would. If pizza bianca requires extensive mechanical kneading and a 4 hour rise to have the correct texture, then that is what it requires. With something like a neo-Neapolitan pizza dough, gluten development via a long rise seems to work just fine.

What did you think was wrong with the texture of your no-knead pizza bianca? I should point out that Jim Lahey -- the pioneer of no-knead doughs at City Bakery and Co. -- makes a legendarily awesome pizza bianca.

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What did you think was wrong with the texture of your no-knead pizza bianca?  I should point out that Jim Lahey -- the pioneer of no-knead doughs at City Bakery and Co. -- makes a legendarily awesome pizza bianca.

However, his "legendarily awesome pizza bianca" includes kneading by machine for at least 10 minutes, a relatively short rising time of doubling the dough in size and a bench proofing of another hour before baking...in Lahey time, practically an instant pizza!

Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"

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Maybe he does. All I can get via an internet search is variations of an already-edited (they thought it was too wet) recipe from smittenkitchen.com. He's using no-knead at Co. -- and I have to wonder if he's still using a knead recipe for the pizza bianca.

Edited by slkinsey (log)

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Veering slightly off topic into pizza bianca: I've never had the pleasure of eating Lahey's p.b., so I don't know how his compares to the roman stuff I hold as the gold standard (a sublime balance of crust & slightly bready interior, but still thin enough to be a flatbread). The non-kneaded, long-rise p.b. was too pizza-like and not sufficiently breadlike; it was all crust and no inside. Damn, now I'm craving pizza rosso from the Antico Forno on the pza Costaguti.

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Thanks for the further comments, I understand now that it's not just about eliminating kneading per se.

...What you describe as your practice of "relatively little kneading" followed by "slow-rise in the refrigerator" is more or less analogous to my so-called "no-knead" prodedure. / Not sure what issues this technique adds, however...are there other issues you have in mind?

I referred only to points raised in this thread. E.g. current post numbers 1, 4, 5, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13 ("two sets of challenges" -- S. Shaw), 15 (Dutch oven for wet dough), 16 (your own "wet dough can be difficult to work with"), 20, 21. Handling of wet dough; special cooking methods (which launched the thread).
the gluten will come together as if it were kneaded over that period of time anyway... As I understand it, kneading is a time-saver: it speeds up a process that will happen naturally.

Agreed that any time between wetting flour and cooking lets gluten develop (just as with noodle dough, or crêpe batter or semolina dumpling batter --customarily "rested" before final shaping and/or cooking, for that reason). Note though that my cookbooks and experience always made think that kneading -- and re-kneading, after rising -- does other things too, including spreading the leavening ultra-uniformly, leading to small consistent bubbles which as others mentioned, is less important (or desirable) in pizza than in bread. Edited by MaxH (log)
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I found this...

We walked past the ovens, and Lahey showed me a long pizza bianca that was cooling (one of the only kneaded bread products he sells and, according to him, one of the oldest known bread products in history)

He was also on the Martha Stewart Show, showcasing the same recipe you might have found on smittenkitchen.

Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"

Tasty Travails - My Blog

My eGullet FoodBog - A Tale of Two Boroughs

Was it you baby...or just a Brilliant Disguise?

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Thanks for the further comments, I understand now that it's not just about eliminating kneading per se.
...What you describe as your practice of "relatively little kneading" followed by "slow-rise in the refrigerator" is more or less analogous to my so-called "no-knead" prodedure. / Not sure what issues this technique adds, however...are there other issues you have in mind?

I referred only to points raised in this thread. E.g. current post numbers 1, 4, 5, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13 ("two sets of challenges" -- S. Shaw), 15 (Dutch oven for wet dough), 16 (your own "wet dough can be difficult to work with"), 20, 21. Handling of wet dough; special cooking methods (which launched the thread).

These are all issues that arise with respect to any wet dough, irrespective of whether it is kneaded or not (edited to add: or things that have to do with the crazyness of spreading the dough out directly on to the hot stone, which would be equally crazy with any other kind of dough and is not a necessary component of no-knead pizza dough). You say that "even if the no-knead method eliminates one issue, it adds others" which would seem to be incorrect in consideration of the fact that all these issues are associated with wet doughs and no-knead dough doesn't need to be wet.

I found this...
We walked past the ovens, and Lahey showed me a long pizza bianca that was cooling (one of the only kneaded bread products he sells and, according to him, one of the oldest known bread products in history)

He was also on the Martha Stewart Show, showcasing the same recipe you might have found on smittenkitchen.

Good catch. I don't have any trouble believing that certain effects aren't possible with a no-knead dough.

Edited by slkinsey (log)

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Good catch.  I don't have any trouble believing that certain effects aren't possible with a no-knead dough.

Right - especially when you want the product in less than that 12 to 24 hour window :smile: .

Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"

Tasty Travails - My Blog

My eGullet FoodBog - A Tale of Two Boroughs

Was it you baby...or just a Brilliant Disguise?

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... all issues that arise with respect to any wet dough, irrespective of whether it is kneaded or not.  ...these issues are associated with wet doughs and no-knead dough doesn't need to be wet.

Fair enough. Keep in mind though that this thread was my introduction (as it may be also to other people) to "no-knead" dough, also generally "wet" in the descriptions.

In making pizzas (and other baked goods) for about 40 years from various recipes I didn't run into a dough as wet as those described here. (The long cold rising I cited earlier yields a relatively "soft," moist dough -- always as moist as possible! -- but dry enough to be handled in a blob, tossed if desired, etc. Often I do the final shaping with olive-oiled hands -- no fat in the dough itself -- leading to the pleasant effect of a pizza surface lightly brushed with oil.) But for other recipes like dinner rolls, I've made dough in a bowl that, even after sitting, was never dry enough to handle. Never made a pizza with it, so far anyway ...

Threads like this can generate deep cravings for fresh-cooked pizzas. (The photos don't hurt a bit.) Please start new ones periodically.

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In making pizzas (and other baked goods) for about 40 years from various recipes I didn't run into a dough as wet as those described here.  (The long cold rising I cited earlier yields a relatively "soft," moist dough -- always as moist as possible! -- but dry enough to be handled in a blob, tossed if desired, etc.  Often I do the final shaping with olive-oiled hands -- no fat in the dough itself -- leading to the pleasant effect of a pizza surface lightly brushed with oil.)

I think it depends somewhat on what stylistic space you're working in. I've been inside plenty of pizzerie in Italy, and also neo-Neapolitan pizzerie here in NYC. I've never seen one of these doughs sturdy enough that it could be handled in a blob or especially not tossed. This is something I associate with high-gluten American-style pizza doughs.

Edited by slkinsey (log)

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